826 Comments on “Dutch War Crimes”
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devilkitty says:
December 19th, 2009 at 11:29 amBtw, library of Fakultas Ilmu Budaya in Universitas Indonesia’s open for Public from Monday to Saturday, i belive if you really Honestly want to know what happened then you can visit the library anytime you want.
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ET says:
December 19th, 2009 at 11:53 am@ devilkitty
If you want to believe Portuguese, Dutch, British were loving Imperialists who came to indonesia with mission of Peace & Love because of your Race then its fully your right, if you want to join KKK thats also none of my business.
Temper, temper…
Where or when did I ever say that Portuguese, British, Dutch were loving imperialists with a mission of Love and Peace?
I dont despise Bule or Japanese as much as you despise Indonesia and the people.
If I would despise the people of Indonesia then what am I doing here? Fact is I came to Indonesia with a truckload of sympathy and admiration for your culture and your history and you probably have already noticed that I’m not totally ignorant about it. I even spoke your language fluently before I set my first foot on your shores.
But as far as racism is concerned I have to admit that I learned some valuable lessons from some of your people, especially here in IM. -
Burung Koel says:
December 20th, 2009 at 8:32 amDo not be so naive, everyone know that the history is always written buy the winner and we know exactly who behind G30S but at that time we need a brave leader to purge unwanted bunch of people (God denier) from our society. Pak Harto got what he wanted while we achieved what we wanted, it is win win solution and case is closed.
The End Justifies The Means.
Interesting interpretation of history. Something similar was used to rationalise the genocide of your Aboriginal* ‘brothers’ in Australia, I believe.
*NB: My relatives and I would prefer if you capitalised the A, making it a noun and not an adjective, thanks.
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Oigal says:
December 21st, 2009 at 10:31 ami remember it was tought at elementary school to junior highschool, of course i dont remember the books author.. (you could browse Gramedia bookstore if you really want to know about it so bad :p).
Always the first source for the accurate, unbiased history on Indonesia .
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Ketut says:
December 23rd, 2009 at 10:39 amBali should sue Java for war crimes.
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lialita says:
January 24th, 2010 at 7:55 amim agree with you ROB !! well my fiancee is dutch guy, but seems hes more “indonesian” than me.. as far as know ducth goverment have give this pay back to indonesian, you see how much euro they’r donate to help ACEH people ? and thers much more,,. in fact not bad things ducth gave to us.,
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Purba Negoro says:
April 16th, 2010 at 8:42 pmLialita,
I will refrain from name calling.,
The Dutch spend huge amounts rebuilding Aceh as Shell there is one of the major oil concessionaires.Individual Dutch may be fine.
Collectively they are not pleasant and consider themselves the vanguard of European-ness. with their gay marriage etcThe French and Germans just laugh at them.
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madrotter says:
April 16th, 2010 at 9:56 pmwell thank you purba;)
i’m actually here to get indonesia back in dutch hands, so far i’ve already liberated a small piece of land outside bandung!!
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Oigal says:
April 17th, 2010 at 6:41 amMas Rotter..
Perhaps you can get Purba to run parking for you, he already has the uniform by the look of his picture.
Oh…and do Germans laugh?
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madrotter says:
April 17th, 2010 at 12:23 pmhehehe, well i don’t know, it’s just that sometimes all the talk about colonialism makes me a bit tired, not that the dutch didn’t do very bad things here but it’s like what, 70 years now and the country is in shambles, i agree with purba when he talks about deforestation and how its all being bought up outside but the indonesian government doesn’t do jackshit about it, i mean come on, bob hassan? he didn’t become a billionaire by gardening and landscaping, and right now tni is chopping down trees in papua at recordspeed…
i love this country, wouldn’t be living here since ’96 if i didn’t, there are things that are better in holland there are things that are better over here…
right now i’m in malang, i was just feeding this paralyzed girl and she’s dying in front of my eyes, it’s breaking my heart. i went to tangeran and far away kampungs in bogor, working for handicapped kids two weeks ago, the government doesn’t do much if anything at all. tangeran is one of the worst places i’ve seen it’s just terrible, people there tell me that it used to be beautiful there, chilly in the morning and green but the government chopped down all the trees and now the place is either flooded or dried out, dengue fever everywhere, not to mention that it is controlled by the fpi, there aren’t even any hotels there anymore, not one! all closed down because of fpi demonstrations cause it might be possible that people have sex without marriage in hotels, wtf???
folks like me, like oigal, ross, et and all the others, bule’s that are making a life here, we are not complaining about things on this site because we look down on indonesians or indonesia, we don’t feel superior or anything, we complain because we honestly love this place and it’s people, because we’re frustrated with opening up newspapers and seeing page after page of bullshit, corruption, state violence, police violence, illegal deforestation and the list goes on. 12 years since that old massmurderer stepped down and still the same pack of wolves running this country into the ground…
sorry, i know i’m repeating myself sometimes but it does get a bit much sometimes…
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April 17th, 2010 at 2:58 pmMadrotter- what do you expect?
Did you think the nations largest institution, responsible for the very creation of the nation- would pack up and leave the enormous national wealth to some Western bankrolled puppets?Holland is hardly democratic either- are lord mayors elected?
Is your head of state elected?
Why does the Bilderberg club still function post Cold war? -
madrotter says:
April 17th, 2010 at 3:54 pmheh!
holland sure isn’t what it used to be that’s for sure, after 10 years or so with the hardcore rightwing christians in power. they’ve closed down big parts of the amsterdam red light district, they’ve closed down most of the famous coffeeshops (i worked for years in one of those in rotterdam) , there’s camera’s on every damn street, there’s groups of pigs roaming the streets handing out tickets for the silliest offences, they’ve got these idotic city-guards parading around like they’re god’s gift to society…
holland with all it’s liberal drug laws had the lowest percentage of junkies in the world, they were coming from all over to study the way things were done there and these idiots are turning back the clock…
i go back there, i’m happy to see my family, my mates and after 2 weeks all i wanna do is go home to bandung…
bilderberg and the indonesian elite don’t really differ that much i think…
their yearly meeting is in spain this year i read, hope somebody bombs that building…
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Oigal says:
April 18th, 2010 at 10:12 amHolland is hardly democratic either- are lord mayors elected?
Is your head of state elected?
Why does the Bilderberg club still function post Cold war?And that matters and fixes what exactly in Indonesia. As the man says its been 70 years and although it could be said for any number of provinces colonialism never left just a change of uniforms.
Did you think the nations largest institution, responsible for the very creation of the nation-
Some very liberal readings of history here.
would pack up and leave the enormous national wealth to some Western bankrolled puppets?
You make it sound as if the wealth is available to Indonesians instead of being plundered and exploited by the very corrupt few. If you want to pretend the organisation is responsible for the safe guarding of the nations wealth then they by default deserve to be disbanded if not detained for gross neglect of duty.
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April 18th, 2010 at 6:01 pmOigal,
sometimes I think you like argument for the sake of argument.Holland is hardly democratic either- are lord mayors elected?
Is your head of state elected?
Why does the Bilderberg club still function post Cold war?This is relevant as it illustrates how the opinion of a Western “expert” here is neither unbiased nor informed as they come from a non-democratic country that masquerads as a democracy, invent “HUman Rights” which are or not applied as the Dutch and their US masters see fit.
The UK, USA and Australia all have many non-democratic political processes. So they are hardly bar to measure others’ standards by.Note with the cynicism of the Third World how notice how quiet Amnesty Int and Human Rights Wail are regarding Iraq, Israel, Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan, Guantanamo Camp Gitmo and X-Ray and Obama’s pledge to close them
At least Indonesia doesn’t with the pretension of pretending- propagandise its’ own popualtion on its non-exsistant virtues (USA, UK, Australia).
Any fool knows Indonesia has major probelms- a walk down any road can show any fool the top ten very serious societal problems- ie
poverty
access to safe plentiful water
hunger,
poor nutrition
low education
lack of marketable skills
litter, pollution
inadequate infrastrucuture poorly maintained and near maximum capacity 20 years ago.No one is claiming Indonesia is a utopia or model nation. It is a nation with massive problems in transition.
“liberal reading of history?”
No.
- PETA and Heiho trained volunteers and veterans who expelled the Dutch.
- actually under Sukarno who encouraged the business enterprise of the military to pay for regular salaries and equipment-
-military saved the nation form Communism.
-Military saved the nation from disintegration from outside agent provocateurs especially Australia envious of Irian Jaya beside its less resource wealthy PNG colony.
-military saved the region via diplomacy to allow for US to leave Subic Bay.
- every single measurable UN index of living improved under a military dictatorship.Any low-strata person will admit yes, under Suharto- life was much better.
Post Suharto- UN figures clearly validate the undeniable fact that post every single standard of living index is now worse.
Not only that- democracy and SBY”s brilliant bureaucracy salary and dem-militarization of police and bureaucracy has made corruption and extortion manifold worse.Liberal reading is not proven by empirical facts- but perhaps by conveniently selective hearsay and Western “academics” published drivel.
Incompetence
-the nation is run by natives for natives
-all resources remain the property of the State for the exploitation f the betterment of the people as per UUD 1945.
- total number of schools, clinics, hospitals, universities, technical colleges, poverty-elimination programs, fertility control compared to conditions pre Independence era proves the minor role military played in politics has been nett positive.Has there been any change- in all honestly one can only evaluate the 3 “democratic” presidents (note Gus Dur “won” the electiononly despite PDI-P and PKS having won the popular vote.)
Major changes have been under Partai Demokrat, SBY and his privatization by stealth- in a “democratic” era- including blatant brazen manipulation of the justice system to ensure Demokrat stays in power.
Under SBY- there have been more peacetime fatalities in the military due to SBY budget cuts- and more deaths in the civil transportation sector than any ruler prior.
THus
military is acquitted of any incompetence charges on issues you raised-
Polisi have a greater political dominance and influence than ever before, when they Polisi were the adek ABRI- so we can go on about Daradjatun, Susno etc for hours.So, no, your arguments are disproven and rebuffed.
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Oigal says:
April 19th, 2010 at 11:19 amLaugh..You need a lot more than sad little strawman agruements but thanks for the giggle.
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Vanaperdeer says:
August 24th, 2010 at 4:38 amDutch should be made to pay. Even today, they make big bluddy noise about HOW OTHER nations are “creating trouble” to their neighbors, such as China and Tibet – when it is non of their business, and forgetting that they had committed crimes that are thousand times worse in Indonesia. There is a video online even showing their Prime Minister Balkenande urging people to “be like VOC”. That’s enough to guess their mentalities.
Knowing the Dutch though, apart from being ignorant and extremely arrogant (check out the Tariq Ramadhan’s case), they are also world’s no 1. stingy population. Where do you think the saying “Let’s go Dutch” come from? It simply means you pay for your coffee, and I’ll pay for mine, even if two cups of coffee only costs 1.50EUR.
They have dehumanized Indonesians and Africans for years, and still hold many nations firmly under toes (Dutch antilles) and trying their best control Kepulauan Maluku. It isn’t so much about WAR, it is about how one race dehumanize (still is) another.
Make them pay and make them apologize.
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August 24th, 2010 at 11:47 amWhere do you think the saying “Let’s go Dutch” come from? It simply means you pay for your coffee, and I’ll pay for mine, even if two cups of coffee only costs 1.50EUR.
BTW, did you know how the Grand Canyon was made?
In the beginning there was nothing, just a vast plain. Then a Dutchman passed and lost 1 EURO.
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deta says:
August 24th, 2010 at 12:22 pmFor the same reason he created a lot of tunnels in Indonesia.
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arutixar says:
September 26th, 2010 at 3:28 pmHello,
Seems this discussion goes back from 2 years ago. I am sorry to read the negativity towards the Dutch. As I am Dutch myself I guess it´s sometimes hard to read. However there are some points I do agree on.
We as a people should appologise to the Indonsians for the atrocities that were comitted after WW2. No doubt about that.
Soon the generation that has this on their conscience is gone. My grandfather was a soldier in the Dutch army, stationed in what is now Indonesia. He never talked about what happened there and took his secrets down his grave. I had another grandfather who had lived under German occupation. He always talked about the war in 40-45 if you asked him about it. So to me as a child that was rather odd. One grandpa talked about the war it and the other didn´t.
It´s a shame there is so much hatred towards us Dutch which is based on old wounds and problems. Every country has its problems. Here tolerance for foreign people is starting to degrade(some reasons valid, some not). I see it everywhere in Europe. Countries are putting up walls to protect their own interests. Belgium is on the brink to fall apart.
Instead of solving the problem people blaming others. Maybe its time to stop pointing at us Dutch and start solving your own problems. It´s a typical human thing to do. To grab back to the past and dwell on that for eternity and just blame for what is happening on the past.
Good luck with your country, and run it as you like. While we run our own as we like. And if you dont like how we run our country, just stay away in your own. If you do like how we run it, you´re welcome to stay live and have a life here. As long as you can take care of yourself and don´t abuse our social security system.
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Hans Porter says:
October 29th, 2010 at 4:45 amDutch warcrimes in Indonesia:
My name is Hans Porter, borne Dutch but emigrated to New Zealand where I also naturalised, so my ‘official’ Dutch link is gone. Emigrants learn an awful lot of sometimes awful things of the past when they live overseas, especially in countries which were ‘colonised’ by western powers. Although and compared to many other ‘new’ nations, NZ hasn’t fared too badly I thought. Maori of course took a beating and had their fare share of misery under the whiteman’s boot, Australia’s Aboriginal people had a far worse deal as I understand. Since I am an avoid reader and in particular about history, I am absolutely agast about the past of my own people! At school we were obviously drenched in WW2 German occupation anekdotes with the resulting scorn for a lot of things German, even today. Naturally we didn’t learn much about Indonesia and what was ‘accomplished’ in the name of the house of Orange and the government. Since I am Dutch myself, I obviously have a very good idea as to how my fellow people think and can manifest themselves. Therefor, I have no qualms about critisizing and holding to account ‘my own people’. personally I think that the Groningen court case is a debacle of the first degree. yes, i remember Westerling from the news papers, to make a long story short, this man was first sent to do the Dutch government’s dirty work and when he got too good at it and was caught out inconveniently by the media, he was accordingly hung out to dry. We, the ‘superior’ trend setting, higher educated and civilising european powers have behaved like scum of the earth, and we the Dutch, forever prosecuting the German ( no doubt they were a scourge to humanity) have to have a long and hard look at our steely, ignorant and hypocritical Dutch faces and come to terms with our own scandalous past behaviour.
I think we ought to apologise and pay compensation to the Indonesians, prosecute the corrupt mob which were in charge of Dutch foreign policy and hold them to account and don’t forget to expose our wonderful House of Orange. Although my dutch lineage cannot be ersased or ignored, I actually don’t feel that associated with it anymore as if reborne with another nationality. Ofcourse some reader will redicule this but I will take that in my stride.
learning and studying is a progessive discovery of our own dutch ignorance.
I do feel proud but also very ashamed of my Ducth ancestory and I apoligise to the poor Indonesians how have suffered under the hands of the dispicable Dutchman.
We the Dutch, can be arrogant, loud mouthed and quick to point the finger at another nation’s bad behaviour forgetting that they have been as much scum of the earth.
I am glad that some big hearted ex soldiers of the dutch army have stood up and put their hands up to say that we have been very bad indeed. You, I salute and hope that this will trigger a healing process.Thank you
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Arie Brand says:
October 30th, 2010 at 10:36 amHans,
I am like you a Dutch expatriate and, equally like you, no longer Dutch by nationality. My habitat is Australia.
I suspect, though I don’t know, that I might be somewhat closer in age to the period we are discussing, having had a brother in the Dutch army in Indonesia and not grandfathers as the Dutch contributor before you. His testimony is that he never witnessed or even heard of any war crimes there. Admittedly he was in the military administration and never personally involved in combat. Nevertheless I think the point stands that war crimes there were very much excesses and not committed in the ordinary run of things.
Also, horrible deeds were committed from both sides (though Indonesians were more often the victims of the deeds of their own country men than the Dutch were)- that seems to be often forgotten in this discussion. I make this remark not by way of “tit for tat” strategy but in an effort to understand what was going on in about twenty year old boys, who had been drafted for national service, and whose main desire was probably to get back in one piece to their mothers or sweethearts.
I have written extensively on this blog about this topic and you might be interested in my contributions. On this thread they start on p.14.
My very recent contributions, relating more particularly to the Rawagede Affair, can be found on the last pages of the thread “SBY: not a Dutch lion”.
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jt mldr says:
December 22nd, 2010 at 1:57 pmEvery country that is in power over another or dominates a group of people will commit warcrimes or crimes against humanity. Just look at the USA right now, they had no business in Iraq, but conducted a war anyway, under false pretences and committed all kinds of war crimes. It is going to take a nuclear war and wipe out 99% of the people to have some peace. For the way it stands now the British along with the USA have the most and best weapons to kill and surpress any country that stands in their way. Besides that, war is good for business.
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Oigal says:
December 22nd, 2010 at 5:31 pmOf course, jt mldr only a couple of factual errors there. The Brits defence force is a shadow of its former self and would not even be in the top 50 nations of the most and best weapons.
You are of course correct that the USA should not be Iraq, despite the fact that every Middle East Nation wanted them there and still wants them there excluding those sneaky Persians
. Speaking of War Crimes, what was it like to be an Iraq Kurd?Kind of curious that you have concerns about the USA yet fail to mention China and/or North Korea. Asia has some issues coming from dominating powers but its not the USA they need to be concerned with.
Have a nice day.
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kevan hyett says:
June 16th, 2011 at 7:15 pmThese are of little significance to me as Holland had been part of the Indies for 3/400 years and who would not fight hard for that.
The murder – yes, murder and massacre of Dutch civilian men, women and children by the Indonesians was just as bad if not far worse.
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ijukj says:
August 8th, 2011 at 7:20 amThe murder – yes, murder and massacre of Dutch civilian men, women and children by the Indonesians was just as bad if not far worse.
No!! The Dutch either VOC,Dutch Government and Dutch East Indies gov. were MUCH-MUCH WORSE for murderd,massacre( Ex.: Thousand Chinese were Butchered in 1740 and Thousand Banda people were Beheaded by Samurai collaborated with VOC in 17th) ,Slavery(Deli etc.) ,Tanam Paksa( Cultuur Stelsel), Agresi Militer(They say Politionele Actie…later rawagede massacre) and Many others…
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Lairedion says:
September 15th, 2011 at 3:17 amSo the Rawagede widows are entitled to receive damage payments by the Dutch state, a Dutch court has ruled.
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belanda says:
September 15th, 2011 at 4:36 amSomewhat strange, if you read the Convention of Geneve only the killing of the POW were warcrimes, killing civilians is part of the Convention of Geneve of 1949. The judge said it was a crime against people of the Dutch Kingdom, after 2005 it was said that the Netherlands recognized the independence of 1945, so there are no citizens op the Dutch Kingdom in Indonesia after that date.
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Oigal says:
September 15th, 2011 at 8:40 amI found this interesting from “The Australian” Newspaper today, curiously the kicker is in the third paragraph. I wonder what did happen to the first wad of cash and if any media outlet in Indonesia will demand to know where the money went? (oh and pigs might fly).
Eight widows and one survivor from the town of Rawagedeh east of Jakarta took the Dutch state to court in 2008 to claim compensation for the execution of men and boys on December 9, 1947 by Dutch colonial troops, during Indonesia’s war of independence.
The Dutch government in 2009 decided to donate 850,000 euros ($1.1 million) to the area of Balongsari, but has avoided using the term “compensation”, Dutch daily newspaper De Volkskrant reported.
The paper said however that it lost track of the money after it was paid over to Indonesian authorities and that little development had taken place so far in the village.
Now I make no claim to be a lawyer, but this could be a case of be careful what you wish for as far as the Indonesian Government is concerned. As we know a large part of Indonesian Law if not a direct copy of older dutch laws then certainly the mutated, bastard child of those laws.
Now we have a legal precedent, does this now leave the Indonesian Government open any number of claims from the East Timorese for instance, the murderous and cowardly Santa Cruz Massacre springs to mind. That was just one incident of many that saw 20% of the population disappear over the period of occupation. How about the Papuans or even Munir obviously civil action can now deliver results where governments fail.
Certainly I doubt you will see to much crowing by Indonesian Government about this decision (although nationalism may overwhelm smarts again) as the implication are not good for the murderous swine yet to be brought to heel.
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September 15th, 2011 at 9:03 pmThey’re already smelling money, Oigal
Govt to Monitor Rawagede Massacre Compensation Process
Plus I hope Indonesians see this as an encouragement to fight for justice regarding the killings in 1965-1966, East Timor and Papua.
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September 15th, 2011 at 10:34 pmInteresting article:
‘Kasus Rawagede, Periode Kolonial Belum Kami Tutup dengan Baik’
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