826 Comments on “Dutch War Crimes”
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Mets says:
October 7th, 2008 at 12:46 pmOk so we have totally moved into an area far from the topic discussion lol!!
Mets is a nickname is this ok pips …
OMG this is getting really silly lol!!
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
October 7th, 2008 at 2:50 pmWhy u say that, Ibu Janma Yth ? I just want to unite all IM-ers in Ramadan spirit. As well as steer discussions away from this dumb pissing contest ! ; p
Minal Aidin, everyone, seksi internet friends, and otherwise.
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October 7th, 2008 at 2:58 pmMets,
Will you be my Special Internet Friend ?
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fullmoonflower says:
October 7th, 2008 at 6:32 pm@Andy
I ever had a Batak boyfriend 15 years ago, and he was very loyal to our relationship..
We loved each other during that time, and I learned his culture as well…
We almost be married also…
The problems between us are about our religion (he is a good Christian, and I am a Muslim), and our taste, I am a vegetarian and I couldn’t eat Saksang (dog meat cooked together with it’s blood) for sure, whereas this food is his favorite.
Those are big problem for us… So even it was so hurt for us, but then we decided to end our relationship, and be a very good friends till now.So you don’t have to tell me about how Batak people is…
Thank you anyway
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Adrian Vickers says:
October 12th, 2008 at 1:59 pmHi guys
Sorry I’ve only just got around to this (not half as sorry as I was to read some of the racist and other dumb comments, but there you go).
To set the record straight, yes, Indonesians killed a number of Dutch and Japanese, and a greater number of British (although their troops included Indians) during the Revolution. There were also brutal attacks on Indos and Chinese. The figures given above (from my book and other sources) are reasonably accurate because the Allies tried to keep good records. Not included are the 3 Australian officers who were murdered by a rogue laskar (that’s what Sukarno and the other leadership claimed), seems it was a matter of ‘oops, we thought you were Dutch’. And of course lots of Indonesians were killed by other Indonesians during the Revolution, sometimes in fairly terrible fashion, as happened on both sides during the Madiun Affair.
But certainly more Indonesians were killed by the Dutch and their allies during the period 1945-1949 than died on the other side. How many is hard to say, since the Indonesian Revolutionaries did not keep count. Figures of 100,000-150,000 are sometimes given, but these are too rounded off to be taken seriously, the real toll was much larger. And as well as the events mentioned above, there were terrible massacres by the Dutch elsewhere, such as the killing of 4,000 (but not 40,000 as Republican propaganda claimed) on Sulawesi under the brutal tactics of Turk Westerling.
Revolutions and wars are awful, and as elsewhere, people acted badly on both sides. Should compensation be paid? Hard to say, certainly the Indonesians got a rough deal when they had to pay the Dutch back for the debt of the Indies after the Revolution. This outcome seems to have been at the behest of the US, who were loaning huge amounts to the Dutch at the time, but also showed Mohammad Roem to have been a bad negotiator in 1949 (not my view, but that of Australian observers to the Round Table Agreement). If someone were to pay for all wars and atrocities there would be an endless round of court cases and bankrupted economies (should Majapahit’s heirs have to pay the Sundanese back for taking them over, for example?)
PS Purbo is right technically, Indonesians were not ‘serfs’, since if you use the term properly it can, like ‘feudalism’, only be applied to certain parts of Europe during the Middle Ages. However, Indonesia has had lots of forms of slavery, unfree labour, debt bondage etc over the centuries. Should the Bugis pay back the Torajans for all the slave raiding they did?
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October 12th, 2008 at 5:07 pmHalo Mr. Adrians,
Thank you for the Seksi and wise comments. They have inspired me to write a song on my Ukulele, which I will do after drawing inspiration from sipping Teh Poci and looking out over the sun setting behind the hills of West Java.
I hope you will continue to be the Seksi Internet Friend of Indonesia Matters.
Merdeka !
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October 12th, 2008 at 5:24 pmP.S. – Seksi Mr. Adrians,
I also ever write about Australian culture. On this site I write a tribute to Kevin Bloody Wilson, the great Australian songster and icon of Australian culture.
I thought it would help to increase understanding of Australia by introducing Indonesians to antipodean practices such as “chucking a browneye,” and other of Kev’s favorite themes.
Merdeka !
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janma says:
October 13th, 2008 at 9:13 amI also ever write about Australian culture. On this site I write a tribute to Kevin Bloody Wilson, the great Australian songster and icon of Australian culture.
I thought it would help to increase understanding of Australia by introducing Indonesians to antipodean practices such as “chucking a browneye,” and other of Kev’s favorite themes.
the two paragraphs above could have been written by two different people…. maybe achmad has a split personality…..
we go from brown man “I also ever write about” to ooops, my brown man just went out, step up white boy uni graduate with “antipodean practices”
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October 13th, 2008 at 10:17 amJanma,
Like the state of Indonesia, the prose of Achmad is a work in progress. I ever write fancy prose and ever use my everyday voice.
I invite you all to join me and maybe follow a few of my tips on revving up the libido and mojo.
It is all a part of the journey to Seksiness and Seksihood.
I thank you Janmas.
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janma says:
October 13th, 2008 at 10:27 amI invite you all to join me and maybe follow a few of my tips on revving up the libido and mojo.
Thanks meester….. as long as it doesn’t involve playing the ukelele i’m up for it…
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Purba Negoro says:
October 13th, 2008 at 8:25 pmJanma- I can’t blame you for being Tante Gatal married to a Chinaman with his lacklustre cheesy lapcheow pricking your thigh when he dreams of white men – nor Son of Pak Darsono for being a virile specimen on Javanese masculinity untamed and insatiable appetite for Bule pudding stroberi, however fatty it may be.
BUT- My BS gets shunted into new threads- why not your pacaran?
No fair lah.Specifically- can we please return to well-documented Dutch War Crimes and Vickers’ trite apologism- not to mention his apologist and inadequately sourced text?
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October 14th, 2008 at 4:23 amOk …are we forgetting a minor detail …the dutch started the colonisation of Indonesia when they arrived in 1830 in Jawa…….
So how does that feature in your comments Mr. Adrian…or wise agruments, because I am really at a lost….
And lets not go down the road of the fab recording of the allies….no, lets …prove me wrong !!
Go on I dare you !!
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October 14th, 2008 at 10:36 amVickers:
clearly avoids the issue of Westerling’s body count in Java- where he barely escaped being caught by Nationalists, and was smuggled and sheltered by Indonesian Chinese into Colonial puppet Singapore- were he then fled to Holland.Vicker’s text is obviously very improperly researched, an extremely poor second when compared with the far superior scholastic work of Rickleff’s- which, is unbiased- and unlike Vickers’ lacks obsequious Dutch apologism for war crimes placing them in the same class as Klaus Barbi or Reinhard Heydrich (fellow Nazis).
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janma says:
October 14th, 2008 at 10:47 amBUT- My BS gets shunted into new threads- why not your pacaran?
No fair lah.You said it yourself Purba….. cause it’s your BS….. Fair lah!
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October 14th, 2008 at 12:39 pm@ PN – Bravo!! I agree…its funny how some people on this thread fail to look at the argument holistically and just pick and choose parts!!
Vickers is obviously a very brave man to have poised an argument without any consideration of the fundamentals !!
Thought I was going mad there at one point & thinking I must have been in a parallel universe when they taught me history at school lol!!
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David says:
October 14th, 2008 at 2:59 pmMets, Adrian is responding to an argument between Berlian Biru and Corduroy over the number of European deaths 1945-1949, that started on the first page, here, continued here, and then BB asked me to see if Adrian would settle the matter, and now he has tried to, so you need to put his comments in that light.
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October 14th, 2008 at 6:14 pmThanks Patung
Yes, if you want to know about Dutch colonialism, of course that’s a different question (and it started around 1799/1800 when the VOC went bankrupt and the state took over, even if we allow for Napoleonic rule and the British period).
Hey, Purba, I wasn’t providing a definitive list of Dutch atrocities, that would be a long one (and not just Westerling, but yes, he did lots of bad stuff on Java as well and even tried to kill Sukarno). So where did I deny that the Dutch killed lots of people, often with no reason, try actually reading before commenting? How about phrases like
“certainly more Indonesians were killed by the Dutch and their allies during the period 1945-1949 than died on the other side.”
?
Are you denying that Indonesians did anything bad, that’s a kind of George Bush logic where the world is divided into ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’. Simple world for simple people.
Sorry Mets I just don’t understand what you mean by “nd lets not go down the road of the fab recording of the allies…”, I gather you don’t mean that they made good vinyl recordings, like the other four,.. but do you mean that we shouldn’t say anything good about the guys who defeated the menace of fascism and nazism during WWII, please explain????
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October 14th, 2008 at 7:52 pmWhat about Seksiness, Mr. Adrians ?
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Cukurungan says:
October 14th, 2008 at 8:18 pmbut do you mean that we shouldn’t say anything good about the guys who defeated the menace of fascism and nazism during WWII, please explain????
It was not quite good because the guy who defeated the menace of fascism and Nazism during WWII, they have been taking hostage the other billion people with their special privilege of the Veto Right Holders. Even those guys have no shame to tell the others billion human being that Nuclear is not good for you but it is good for our self because we are do-gooders
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Batara Richrad Hutagalung says:
October 15th, 2008 at 2:11 pmThe widows in Rawagede have long accepted their fate. They are willing to give forgiveness, but to whom should it be given, if nobody apologize? The objective of the Committee of Dutch Honorary Debts is not seeking revenge, but to achieve Reconciliation with dignity between Indonesia and The Netherlands.The widows agree with the idea of the Committee of Dutch Honorary Debts to invite the Dutch veterans who were involved at the massacre to come to Rawagede for a reconciliation. I’m quite sure that many veterans deep in their hearts have guilty feelings for killing innocent villagers. On August 16.2005 in Jakarta the former Dutch Foreign Minister Ben Bot said : “…In retrospect, it is clear that its large-scale deployment of military forces in 1947 put the Netherlands on the wrong side of history…” It means that not only Indonesian people were victims, but also the Dutch soldiers and the indonesië weigeraars were victims of the wrong politic of the Dutch government 1945 – 1949. I think it is now the proper time to make correction to the wrong politic. Please consider this as an invitation to the Dutch veterans and indonesië weigeraars. Batara Richard Hutagalung, Chairman of the Committe of Dutch Honorary Debts. batara44rh@yahoo.com
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janma says:
October 16th, 2008 at 1:35 pmI’ve heard from some old timers in Java… old people who remember when the Dutch left INdonesia that many many indonesians killed their dutch neighbours, including the children… one old man remembers dutch babies being thrown against walls…..
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October 16th, 2008 at 3:04 pmHi Janma,
Maybe. But baby stories always pop up as war-time urban myths, one historian did a study of baby-bayoneting appearing in the European media, everywhere from Belgium 1914, to the Balkans circa 1996.
I’m a bit skeptical about the Dutch massacre stories. Some of the Dutch were very integrated into their communities, a bit like the American South after 1860.
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October 16th, 2008 at 3:07 pmp.s…Except if land came into it. Then the murder is more or less business.
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Lairedion says:
October 17th, 2008 at 4:09 amPak Batara yth.,
Many thanks for your contribution. Allow me to post two link I found through your blog.
Survivors of massacre demand compensation -
Berlian Biru says:
October 17th, 2008 at 10:01 pmThank you Mr Vickers for coming on board to clarify the relative numbers killed on each side in the War of Independence.
I think as in most wars of independence, from the American colonies to Ireland, perhaps even to present day Iraq (though I am not for one moment describing what is going on there as a war of independence), the vast majority of people killed are not the “occupying” armies or even the “insurgents” but most often inconvenient civilians who don’t quite fit in to the black/white, occupier/liberator category, anyone familiar with Indonesia can have no difficulty in imagining who would be the victims in the situation, as in 1945/49, where law has broken down and a state of almost anarchy is prevailing.
As to Achmad’s assertion about the perennial “baby-killing” myth, it is certainly true that in 1914 the Allies alleged that Germans bayoneted babies (they were also accused of cutting children’s hands off) and I well recall shortly after Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait in 1990 stories of Kuwaiti babies being dumped out of incubators so that the equipment could be looted to Iraq.
Of course this was all dismissed bien pensants as so much scare mongering, and whilst it might be true that there was a degree of exaggeration, in fact we now know that the Germans in WW1 Belgium did indeed commit dreadful atrocities against Belgian men, women and children and of course we know that Saddam wasn’t averse to slaughtering children if the occasion called for it.
Just because something sounds too awful to be true doesn’t mean it isn’t actually true.
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timdog says:
October 17th, 2008 at 10:44 pmBB –
I well recall shortly after Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait in 1990 stories of Kuwaiti babies being dumped out of incubators so that the equipment could be looted to Iraq
Ah yes, that’ll be the story with a single point of origin: the story of a certain “terrified” 15-year old girl presented to the world by American PR firm Hill and Knowlton, who reported having seen the premature babies pulled from their incubators and thrown to the floor… she was so “terrified” of reprisals that her full identity could not be revealed…
It came out eventually though (but not before the babies-incubators-Iraqi-monstors story had passed into the “truth” stratosphere)…
It seems somewhat unlikely that she could have seen the events described as she wasn’t in Kuwait at the time: she was in Washingto DC along with her dad – who just happened to be the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the USA…Saddam Hussein and his forces did some monstrous things, but this, catagorically, was not one of them…
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Andy says:
October 18th, 2008 at 11:16 amSaddam Hussein and his forces did some monstrous things, but this, catagorically, was not one of them…
The funny thing for me though is there were millions of Iraqs who wanted to leave during Saddam’s reign and plenty of cheering in the street when the west liberated them. This war was poorly executed and not too researched beforehand but I cringe when I hear Indonesians and other muslims carry on as though Mother Teresa or Ghandi were running the country. He was a butcher and the place now is not all that flash but this was not an invasion the way dickhead pious muslims like to think. Particularly those who call for a caliphate, stay silent when they execute horrendous acts of terrorism and invade other countries (read Timor) themselves.
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October 19th, 2008 at 2:28 amAndy
get some oxygen please. Your own carbon monoxide is dumbing you even further down, if physically or humanly possible.Had Saddam been left in power- 600,000 civilians would not be killed for Western corporate oil-greed.
Sad fact Andy- face it. Australia is catcher to US Pitching- and I am not refrring to baseball.
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October 19th, 2008 at 11:33 amMore than that were killed in the first place, get real!!
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October 19th, 2008 at 3:04 pmHad Saddam been left in power- 600,000 civilians would not be killed for Western corporate oil-greed.
It seemed that Misteerrr Andy Indonesian Student who painted Mr Bush as biggest terorrist was speaking about the truth …unfortunately this student did not paint complete picture because there was two missing gentlemen on his painting that is Mr Howard and Mr Tony Blair
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