74 Comments on “Best Rated Universities”
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timdog Says:
October 20th, 2008 at 5:18 amIs it safe to come out now? Have they stopped shooting?
Rob:
Now that everyone has had their little moment can we get back on topic which is ranking educational institutions?
Yes Rob, yes… in an attempt in that direction I will resubmit my previous (and unanswered) point, which, like the guy who scrimps and saves and borrows and just manages to open his little cafe on the day the war starts and the bombs start raining down on the city, I may have made with rather bad timing…
A flaw in this list - besides the previously mentioned bias towards English-speaking institutions - is that it is attempting to focus on the “best” universities. The “best” are only a tiny fraction of a much larger sector, and they may well have very little relevance to the standards of the rest of higher education in a given country.
Oxford and Cambridge, for example, offer absolutely no reflection whatsoever on the rest of the scene in Britain (which, arguably, has some far more vibrant educational institutions that the Big Two, and which unquestionably also has some dreadful tin-pot universities too)…
I’m not arguing for moment that once you step a rung down the ladder from the ITBs and so on you’ll find a world of mid-range quality in Indonesia’s lesser universities - far from it; I’m just saying that this list isn’t a reflection on quality across the board…
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Marisa Says:
October 20th, 2008 at 6:10 amAnyone could write a letter to universities about anything. No worries. See, I’ve been educated in universities too, you know, you might be so surprised to hear that. I know for sure they accept these kinds of letters and read them no matter what it may concern their own affairs. Whoever it is I’m writing to, it is no longer your concern. Let some people be the judge of this. And no, this isn’t a threat.
Hell, perhaps I’m just going to write away my childish tantrums, that’s all.
I have tried stating my opinion as an adult, and not much less mature than how everyone else do on this site. But then your responses, on me patronizing, on me knowing nothing about these vague existence of people I don’t understand who, then on my nationality, I cannot see them in any way related to the context of education and corruption. And you call yourself mature for responding in such way? You actually consider yourself as one that is more mature than I am? And what’s more ridiculous from it is, by responding in such way, that you have been behaving as an educator?
Do you even know what education means, and the whole philosophical definition of it?
Educators, for one, don’t call others stupid, or stating “The stupidity of your response..”.I strongly suggest that you learn more from Indonesian educators, the good ones, ones that actually honor educating as a life principle. For instance, you could talk with SDN teachers in the slums and ask them how to educate pupils that have been eating literally off the garbage.
Trust me, such experience will undoubtedly enlighten you on how to appreciate others stupidity. That is, if intelligence have patronized you in any way.
And your first statement right here:
Education might play a minor role
is quite different from the end result:
My concern was that an exclusive reliance on education to solve the corruption problem is not enough.
People may not see the logic to how the two differentiates, but both certainly aren’t equivalent to each other.
Then again, no one mentions exclusive reliance and immediate solving, I was simply going along with what you’ve mentioned first: The idea needs to be preventing it and keeping it an absolute minimum. Funny how you kept on forgetting your own lines.
My comments do not resort to swearing or jumping up and down on the spot saying it’s mine, it’s mine, it’s mine, it will never be yours!
The idea being that you were keen to prevent any non-Indonesians from commenting on “your” country.
Jumping up and down? To prevent non-Indonesians? I think your head’s starting to play tricks on you, because the statement this is my country anyways, not yours is based on how you refer yourself as a foreigner. Your call. Not mine.
And what’s with the quote unquote? This is my country, period. No need to quote unquote that. Oh my, can’t believe you haven’t yet fully accepted the fact this is the country of an Indonesian.
True though, that I’m being childish. That’s why I need real grown-ups more.
And less people like you. -
Rob Says:
October 20th, 2008 at 10:21 amTimdog…
The list is subjective and in that sense I would agree that it is not reflective of quality across the board. For example, there are universities that maintain expertise in a particular area and are recognized for that expertise however it is sometimes the case that not all of that institutions faculties are regarded in the same light.
My original point, which has long since been taken out of context, was that it was interesting to me that UPH was not considered. It was also interesting that a number of other Indonesian universities were not considered. Or if they were why they did not make the list. I appreciate that the list must be finite, top 10, top 50, top 500 or whatever, hence the criteria that maybe considered does not necessarily reflect quality institutions from elsewhere in the spectrum.
For instance Indonesia has about 230 faculties of law throughout the archipelago. This would suggest that there are huge number of institutes of higher learning in Indonesia whether they be universities or colleges or vocational training institutes.
Marisa…
The logic of my statements regarding minor role and exclusive reliance and immediate solving are not contradictory.
Your selective quotations and the jumbling of those quotations might convince some. However, when read in their entirety there is nothing in my statements that I would consider unfair. Most of the questions I have posed to you in response to adopted positions in this little tit for tat debate have remained unanswered.
You seem to think that I am employed by UPH. If I was, and then you say things along the lines of you want to sue me, you intend to write to my employer, then this is by definition a course of action that seems designed to intimidate, don’t you think.
As usual you assume too much. I am a life-long learner and I am always learning things.
I am not trying to educate you. You are not looking to be educated through IM. You are here to express your opinions and tear down those that disagree with you. You are like the kid who when they don’t get their way grabs the ball and goes home.
Nope, your statement about my country anyways and not yours has nothing to do with me identifying myself as being a foreigner. It has to do with an earlier comment that you made that suggests that non-Indonesians can never really understand by fact of them being non-Indonesian.
As an aside you are on my blogroll because I think that you are a good writer and I enjoy reading your opinions. It is not a question of appreciating a different view any more. I appreciated your view, disagreed with it and stated my reasons for my disagreement, proposed an alternative argument, and then ended up with it’s my country not yours.
Nevertheless, what has transpired here is interesting because you have taken what was a rather innocuous point on the inclusion of UPH into the ranking list into an opportunity to lecture me on Bina Nusantara and Atma Jaya being premier Indonesian educational institutions and then that I fail to understand the relationship between corruption and education in the Indonesian context because I do not accept that education is anything more than a bit part in a much more comprehensive corruption prevention strategy.
If we are talking about civics and morality, then I am in agreement with Patrick that this starts much earlier and starts in the home. It is then followed through with additional education in the school system.
Once again, you are putting “facts” into play that have never existed,
Oh my, can’t believe you haven’t yet fully accepted the fact this is the country of an Indonesian.
I am not sure that I said anywhere that Indonesia is not the country of Indonesians. I did question whether or not you own Indonesia as you seem to be speaking on behalf of all Indonesians when you say things like, “anyways this is my country, not yours!” Particularly when it seems to be in the context of your comments are not important or relevant because you are commenting about something that is not yours. That was my point and I think most people would see it as that.
But, whatever. You have your views and I have mine. However, your ending of,
True though, that I’m being childish. That’s why I need real grown-ups more. And less people like you.
was a nice touch. This must be you in educating mode, is it? On a technical point I called your argument stupid and not you. Small difference, perhaps even splitting hairs, but the reality is that smart people can advance stupid arguments, sometimes.
Happy writing!
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janma Says:
October 20th, 2008 at 11:12 amMarisa….. (I can’t help myself)…. you are Indonesian…. nobody disputes that…. the problem is with the concept of ownership….. Rob, was jesting in a way, (though he’s right if you ask me….)
we may ‘come from, be born in, and have ancestors in a certain geographical zone, but this doesn’t confer ownership of a country or land exclusively to a single individual, like yourself. Rob’s not Indonesian, as he stated, but his family is and he lives here for better or for worse and you have no grounds to forbid him his opinion on his adopted home.
I don’t know why I’m explaining this, except with five kids, I guess you get used to explaining the obvious…. but this IS something a five year old could understand!… (could somebody perhaps fetch a five year old?) -
bagas Says:
October 22nd, 2008 at 9:47 amMarisa..orang yang aneh. ;p
Let’s move to discuss this: http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2008/subject_rankings/technology/
I haven’t read how they assess, but why top university in one field (ex. technology) plunge in general category? Like ITB in top 100 (technology) but 315 in general, while ITB is specialize on it.bagas - Indonesian from ITB-tokyo-monash
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Susi Says:
October 23rd, 2008 at 6:04 pmMost Indonesians and Indonesian employers are only concerned about if you have studied at a foriegn univesity. They don’t care about how it ranks.
In Jakarta; students pay 100 million rupiah for a few months study at MIBT and MIBT is a load of crap and nobody has heard of it; but they pay money because MIBT Jakarta guarentees them a place in Melbourne and they get an easy ride in Jakarta. Same with Monash College but is it the same as Monash university? Just rich kids paying the money so that they can get any kind of foreign education…
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Rubi Says:
October 25th, 2008 at 9:40 pmYeah itb get into the top 100 universities, number 90 in the technology field.. I think it’s not bad although not very good.
FYI, I’ve got a friend in my high school (my school isn’t a good school like bpk penabur jakarta or ipeka or sutomo medan) who can get into UPH (medical faculty) even though he likes to cheat in the exam (maybe all of the exam) and of course he got the last rank but he has a lot of money.
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Purba Negoro Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 2:32 amJanma
But whyyyyyyy? I don’t get it? When can I hav es krim? Are we there yet? Sister is pinching me. -
Patrick Says:
October 26th, 2008 at 2:49 am@ Rubi, Really good point about your friend cheating his way into medical school and about his money and all. Well I guess for the future, just another undereducated and therefore unqualified doctor in Indonesia, so what else is new? Begs the question of just who is in charge of all the madness?
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pramino Says:
October 27th, 2008 at 3:36 amThere is a recently published paper criticizing the THES World Ranking citing that not only it is biased toward universities in English speaking countries but it is heavily tilted toward British and Australian schools vis a vis their North American counterparts. The paper states that the ranks of UK universities in general go up every year, too much emphasis on international marketing, low weighting on research citation etc. Further, the survey received only 1 percent response from over two hundred thousands of emails sent out by Times and most responses were sent from countries where Times is quite well known.
Personally, I just can’t imagine some newspaper or magazine like Times (or US News) attempting to carry out such massive undertaking as properly reviewing the quality of probably as many as more than one hundred thousand universities out there in the world and do a decent job at that. I think it’s impossible. Does Time put in enough manhours to do the survey, do their reviewers have the right qualification and experience to assess these schools. I doubt it.
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Danang Says:
October 31st, 2008 at 6:53 amWell, I think it goes without saying that indonesian universities have lower quality if we try to compare it with others.
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October 31st, 2008 at 3:45 pmDon’t you know that ITB get into the best 100 universities in the technology field? I think it’s a good achievement
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Jawa Says:
December 1st, 2008 at 9:24 amDear all,
As an Indonesian that graduated from a university in the Netherlands and a university in France, I wonder about the rank that put Anglo-Saxon universities on top of European universities while in the field of social science everybody just loves to cite Foucault or Derrida..
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December 2nd, 2008 at 3:15 pmExcellent point.
There is one major factor people seem to forget.
That is, one of the key incentives for Indonesians to study externally is:
Degree length is shorter.For example - one can acquire Bachelor degree in Western system within 3 years - it is possible in some rare instances to cram into 2 years- and some external correspondence.
Indonesian Bachelor undergrad degree or Sarjana Satu commonly takes 4 years and includes interrogative thesis- as opposed to pure coursework.
Masters- my Engineering took two years- but now in Australia can attain same exact master degree within in one.This is best savings in time and money for many- hence it is attractive.
Indonesia needs to abandon Dutch system of thesis based tertiary study and replace with either Western or Japanese system.
But of course- one can imagine the resistance to change.
I agree with Sputjam or whomever above who state Indonesia should import retired or retirement age Western lecturer- their skills and experience would be very valuable indeed.
BUT- as always short-term economics is of primary consideration.damned if one does, damned if one does not.
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