Argument Topics

Sep 1st, 2008, in Asides, by

The next funny installment of Purba vs various people, Achmad's Oigal obsession, East Timor, Batam, plenty of other stuff...cut from Dating Girls thread.


133 Comments on “Argument Topics”

  1. avatar Farah says:

    From PN expected from a woman thats really sad..if PN was really in the TNI then perhaps he would like to tell us about the “nice” little establishment they created on Aturo Island, just off East Timor..(Thats another little item that will never be made public in Indonesia) but next time you meet one of Senior Heros of Tim Tim do ask about the island and watch the reaction.

    …i don’t like to hear when people get hurt especially woman because i am a woman too.

    But lets talk about the fact, and the real fact is no report that time.

  2. avatar Andy says:

    Evidence please????? Mets, refer back to my previous post. You obviously have no conscience do you. The video is available if you wish to see. Oh it’s ok to commit human rights abuses in the name of your country but not ok to take drugs in your adopted land. Terrible morals.

  3. avatar Mets says:

    @ Andy – which post you have so many lol!!! also the topic wasnt drugs that was up for discussion – it was the fact you said I was bagging bules in London and Im agreeing with you by informing you how I was doing it …..WHATS YOUR PROBLEM THEN!!!

    So pls tread carefully when you assume you know where my morality lies………….as to be frank you dont know anything about me yet you insist on personalising everything…either be an adult and have an objective frank discussion where you will come across challenging issues that might question your morality or ‘IF YOU CANT TAKE THE HEAT GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN!!!’

  4. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal,

    Why don’t you tell us about that nice little island ?

    Go ahead. Go on, “big fella” – show us what enterprise is all about.

    Then, why don’t you tell us how you know ?

    Any connection with the Australian military ?

    How were relations between the Indonesian and Australian military at that time ? I’m just wondering what you think the general feelings in the Australian military towards Indonesian soldiers was at that time ??

    Be interesting to see all your cards on the table.

    From a “pillow chewing rent boy” (Oigal’s words).

  5. avatar Purba Negoro says:

    I tell you a true story:
    I have a good frined, a retired former LetnanJendral of Communication and Signals Corps, whose son Dedi made good friend with Indonesian Chinese guy Johannes when partying in Melbourne instead of taking study seriously (12 years of hard party still no degree)

    Now I think I am the fool- for they both are very enterprising- they now use bought Commerce degrees and make millions selling the Aussies women, cannabis and “sabu-sabu” (crystal meth courtesy of Chinatowns’ Kota mega-drug labs) and the Timorese Fretilin weapons for when they want to expel the Aussie.

    See- Aussies like to give it, but they are not man enough to take it- ask any Bali gigolo or Blok M transvestite.

    The next 2 years will be very interesting in Timor for Aussie- their racism, obscene behaviour and extreme arrogance is making them fast outstay their welcome. Timorese are very Catholic- so are also very conservative. They are very shocked to see true Aussie during gay-love soldier sex-parades
    Gusmao has buried the hatchet in supremely polite and respectful manner- laying wreaths in Kalibata cemetery. He is on very good terms with Sutiyoso, Prabowo, Srimegar, bu Mega and even Rais- meeting with them all in Jakarta.

    Perhaps Gusmao and Romo Hortes can see the far lesser of two evils.

  6. avatar Purba Negoro says:

    Pride begets the fall Oigal.

    I think your nation will be in for a very rude surprise.

    One scenario your Australian Defence has planned against- you can find the relevant white paper yourself:

    Indonesia spends 2 months on diversionary tactics landing over 100 x 4 man autonomous cells of commando constantly harassing and creating nuisance, panic and distress in all major cities.
    Australian resources are then stretched very thin
    Maybe one major military airfield breached.
    Indonesia sends in one thousand fishing boat- 10 paramilitary & 4 crack commando per boat. Australian coastal patrol is utterly overwhelmed.
    One air to air missile per fishing boat, your air force of 80-90 warplanes made ineffective
    One torpedo per every ten fishing boat, your Australian submarine ineffective.
    100 x 4-man autonomous cells with 100 kg per squad can easily totally paralyze Darwin. No water, no electricity, no sewerage, no hospitals, no airport, no bridges, no police, no ambulances, no fire brigades, not a thing working.

    In two weeks= total civilian capitulation and anarchy. Strategic elements of Darwin secured and fully entrenched. Deep water ports of Darwin secured.
    Then land 10,000 heavily armoured crack commando and heavy artillery as avante guard.
    Over 2 weeks we can easily land over 100,000 regulars= 6000 per day= 200 fishing ships carrying 30 men and provisions.
    All the while constantly sniping, harassing and create massive problems with minimal casualties.

    Indonesia avoids US-UK conflict by ceding US-UK full free access to all mines. US-UK very happy and accepts after save-of-face minor skirmishes.

    Indonesians, sick of crappy food and fat women go home.

    If you think impossible- only 400 or so German paratroopers landed in a Holland sportsfield, commandeered civilian equipment and had totally secured Holland for invasion.
    Within three days over 25,000 crack German soldiers had totally secured Holland. Barely a shot fired.

    But the reality is Indonesia will never attempt taking Australia as we do not want sand, snake and Australian land-dugong.

    Unlike the West- Indonesia does not illegally attack nations for theft of resources like Oil.

  7. avatar Oigal says:

    YAWN…

  8. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    C’mon Oigs,

    How’d you know about that place ?

    PN — probably worthwhile holding off on the bule bashing to see if Oigal’s got the “intestinal fortitude,” he accuses other people of not having…

    He says he was in ET…

    C’mon, Oigsy. Step up, big fella !

  9. avatar Purba Negoro says:

    Be careful.
    Australian female land dugong is evidently very ravenous- it may eat us Pak Achmad.

  10. avatar Oigal says:

    Assmad,

    To paraphrase…”People like you don’t deserve the truth”

    As the question yourself next time you get the opportunity..even better if you do while their wives and family are around..

  11. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigsy-Poigsy Pudd’n’ pie,

    Some links on Aussie army transgressions in East Timor below. Keen to know your thoughts, me old Chummy-Chum-Chum-Chi-Wum-Wum.

    http://www.etan.org/et2000c/november/1-4/01ttroop.htm

    Here’s another one, Big Fella-i-roonie-poo,

    http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/s808392.htm

  12. avatar Robert says:

    @Purba Negoro,

    If you think impossible- only 400 or so German paratroopers landed in a Holland sportsfield, commandeered civilian equipment and had totally secured Holland for invasion.

    Almost correct PN, the number was a little bit higher, for the attack on The Hague alone almost 10,000 men were involved (paratroopers and air infantry), and those men only landed in the western part of Holland.

    Within three days over 25,000 crack German soldiers had totally secured Holland.

    Again, almost correct, the total amount of german soldiers was about 150,000. For the attack on the Grebbelinie defenceline alone, 23,000 soldiers were involved (regular infantry troops and Waffen-SS regiments). I don’t wanna nitpick about the figures you mentioned, they are only minor details.

    Barely a shot fired

    Correct. The Germans had about 2000 men killed in action and had 5000 men wounded, also they lost about 300+ planes. Indeed, barely a shot fired.

    Invading Australia is a piece of cake, it shouldn’t pose any problem for the crack soldiers of the Indonesian Army. One tip: don’t forget to use your bombers on civil targets! What actually made the Dutch surrender, was the threat of the Germans bombarding the big cities. As you know, the city-center of Rotterdam was actually bombed and thus flattened.

    Also I am missing a pre-emptive strike on the Australian airforce bases. The Germans did that in Holland and that worked out very well, they wiped out a major portion of the Dutch airforce.
    You don’t want the F-111 and F/A-18’s flying towards Indonesia. Especially now they are equipped with the JASSM Cruise Missile. I heard those missiles can cause great discomfort for those on the receiving end.

    For the rest it’s a superb plan, I fail to see what might go wrong. As long as you keep other countries countries happy (US, UK, China?), things should go smoothly.
    I presume you’ll be heading the Indonesian invasion force, I hope you won’t forget IM and its readers and keep us posted about your progress in Oz. Good luck with the invasion, hope to see you soon on international television waving the Merah Putih in Darwin.

  13. avatar Purba Negoro says:

    Rob indeed you are very right to correct me- I offer scenario above as dictated by Australian Defence hypothesis.

    The Dutch invasion resulted in 3,500 dead, and 6,000 wounded Dutch soldiers and the deaths of over 900 civilians.

    The German army lost 2,500 men, suffered 6,000 wounded and 700 troops reported missing, and 2,000 were captured and shipped to Britain.

    The attack on Rotterdam I am referring to used 120 paratroopers of Fallschirmjaegar
    1 or more Companies of Brandenburger Commando- one company= 300 men
    SS regiment Der Fuhrer- approx 200 men
    750 including the 11th Company of the 16 Airborne Regiment landed the following day
    Rotterdam was secured and the Nazis repulsed several Dutch attempts on key positions.

    The forced labour Arbeitseinsatz- was Dutch Colonialism perfectly mirrored- cultuurstelsel without the death by starvation faced by 3 million+ Javanese (on an island of less than 30-40 million inhabitants)
    Then Dutch tasted a little of our pain via their HongerWinter- and such a sweet payback it was.

    As for the flattening of Rotterdam- sweet poetic justice.

    Exactly as the British and Dutch did to so many towns, from Surabaya, Malang, Purwakarta, etc.- killing innoent cvilians for reimposition of Dutch Apartheid.
    Probably for the Operatie Kraai, Agressi 1 & 2 and the battle of Surabya, perhaps 100,000 or more Indonesians were killed.
    Always an estimate as the Dutch felt “inlanders” were undeserving of even being roughly numbered in census.

    Only 250,000 Dutch and Jew died in Holland due to the NAzis.
    Perhaps less than 30,000 inclusive killed in the East Indies.

    So, as you can see, luckily for the Dutchmen, the Nazis were far less ruthless than the Indies Dutchman.

    Consider the East Indies accounted for 70% of Dutch total GDP- and still not a cent paid in Colonial reparations.
    Now you see why we Indonesians care nothing about their wartime casualties.

    As for Australian invasion- it was/is never going to happen. I have no idea why Australia constantly fear it.
    It is academic in the extreme.
    The mere concept of it is considered a bad joke in the military.
    I suggest it is a clever curtain argument for justification for defence purchases from US in return for US support.
    Business and politics go hand in hand in the Wst too.

    If anything during Konfrontasi era Sukarno would have simply taken Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei. Sukarno always wanted Irian- it was part of the Agreement since 1949- Konfrnotasi was just to make a nuisance and rattle the sabre- this is why during Konfrontasi- only irregulars used, all combat brigades removed to distant Java and Indonesian officers still being trained in Australia, UK and US while it happened.

    PNG we never desired- too far to extend defensive lines & invasion would bring Australia into conflict – and possibly UK/US.
    That would repeat Hitler’s insanity of Barbarossa. Only an idiot or madman starts fights he cannot win.

    As for F-111= it was envisaged as a first-strike supersonic nuclear tactical bomber bought by Menzies as he feared a Sukarno nuclear weapon (1964 2 nuclear research plants finished in Java)
    I recall it having leaky fuel tanks when I visit RAAF Tindal in 1992.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/26/australia_cruise_missiles/
    I quote:
    the Menzies government “ordered the F-111 in 1963, with the specific instruction that it be capable of reaching Jakarta carrying nuclear weapons”.

    It will be retired in 2010

    The JASSM is a good weapon- perhaps range 230 NM or more (some report hint 1000 mile) but Australia will not receive one until 2009. But it is very controversial and expensive.
    This article advises that Australia will still not be able to have adequate range for Indonesia.

    defenseindustrydaily

    Also Indonesia has not enough range nor even aircraft for air support coverage of Darwin- more proof Indonesian Brown Peril is complete total nonsense and scare propaganda.

    Defence aquisitions planned under Suharto probably not possible for another 10 years.

    I very much doubt the red and white flag will fly over Darwin aside from Embassy picnic event!

  14. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    PN,

    But Northern Australia should be ours !

  15. avatar Oigal says:

    Assmad..

    Laugh.. You fair dinkum wanker! You are not seriously going to use the website ETAN as a reference for you pathetic tirades are you. But maybe you are that dull..outstanding..of course ETAN has done a pretty good job of documenting poor behavior hasn’t it..Shall I list the links on that site about the Indonesian hired murders and disugusting behaviour of its supposed protectors… Gee sometimes its just too easy!

    Big bad Army made them go thirsty..oh diddums..too bad it was proved incorrect upon further invesitgation and even it wasn’t hardly rates on the scale of 1-10 for anything on the ETAN website..or even daily occurances in any police cell in Indonesia (not been reading the papers lately AS… Really you have to do better than this..at lease make it a semi challenge

    P.S. Here’s a tip don’t use ETAN.. opens a bag of worms for you and your other idiot bule mate PN that you may not be able to control

  16. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal,

    Nice evasion tactics.

    Didn’t use ETAN (last time I dissed them, you defended them).

    All I did was google:

    “S.A.S. “East Timor” Abuses”…(or something like that) this is what I found with the aforementioned thread:

    http://www.abc.net.au/am/stories/s692071.htm

    That’s right, Oigsy. The A.B.C.

    Anyway, enough of skirting ’round the issues.

    1. How did you know about that island ?

    2. What do you think of the allegations against the S.A.S. ? Now we all know that soldiers don’t like to testify against each other…What do you think really happened ?

    Please note, no insults in the above thread.

    Just looking for answers.

  17. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal,

    Big fella. We got you nailed down on this one, we got ya.

    You keep trying the old slip, slidin’ away trick. But we got ya.

    We’ve heard about the abuses of the Indonesian military. Let’s talk about the Australian army for now.

    I got the links by a quick google scan of key words, S.A.S., abuse and East Timor.

    – Still wondering what you think of such abuses and why they happen ?
    – What do such abuses say about the professionalism of the Australian army ?
    – How do they make you feel as a former soldier ?

    Don’t think we’ll get an answer. Please note, no insults in above post.

  18. avatar Robert says:

    PN, thanks for your elaborate answer, I was merely pointing out only 400 paratroopers won’t do the job completely, some extra support remains necessary.

    So, as you can see, luckily for the Dutchmen, the Nazis were far less ruthless than the Indies Dutchman.

    I think it depends on who you would ask, the average (non-jewish) Dutchman would probably agree with you. Those being shoved in the gaschamber (Jews, gypsies, handicapped, etc.) would have had a different opinion. Concentration camps seem pretty ruthless to me.

    Only 250,000 Dutch and Jew died in Holland due to the NAzis.

    True. 250,000 out of 9 million in 5 years.
    But this number would have been higher if the Germans wouldn’t have been in the Netherlands for 5 years, but for 350 years like the Dutch in Indonesia.
    One other reason is that there were no Jews left to exterminate, otherwise the number would have been higher too.

    Now you see why we Indonesians care nothing about their wartime casualties.

    I never expect the Indonesians to care about Dutch wartime casualties at all.

    As for Australian invasion- it was/is never going to happen. I have no idea why Australia constantly fear it.

    Fear makes it easier to get certain budget proposals approved, especially the defence budget. Without fear no expensive equipment like fighters, submarines etc.
    Fear is the grease in political decisionmaking. Proven recipe.

  19. avatar Teng says:

    Probably for the Operatie Kraai, Agressi 1 & 2 and the battle of Surabya, perhaps 100,000 or more Indonesians were killed.

    Which again was nothing compared to the Indonesian so-called commies killed by Indonesians themselves.

    Only a facist like yourself would talk about ‘sweet payback’ regarding a time in which people (included babies and women) starved to death.

  20. avatar Teng says:

    Oh and Patung… this site has degenerated in a site full of racist and fascist remarks. I am quite sick of it to be honest. Too bad… it used to be one of the greatest sites regarding Indonesia there was… but these days every topic ends in bule-bashing or chinese bashing or islam-bashing.

    No fun anymore.

    So adios

  21. avatar Purba Negoro says:

    Teng:

    Cultuurstelsel- 3 million Javanese killed by starvation- or because they are brown- they are worth less than blonde Dutch babies?

    The Dutch presided over the death by starvation of over 3 million Javanese
    (men, women, children babies, surely plenty of doe-eyed innocents as per your NGO masturbation material)

    for Dutch-Chinese greed, enslaving Javanese to slave away on their own land for cash-crops.

  22. avatar Oigal says:

    Not even close as well you know..but as Teng says good job on screwing up a good website..

  23. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Actually, I think Teng might be right. My original aim was to sound so stupid that such positions were discredited, but probably gone too far.

    I think this argument thread was a good idea. Might be worth setting up a separate thread.

    Teng does have a point. Mr. Patoengs has put a lot of effort into the site.

    As for you, Oigal, I honestly think you’re skipping around this. Australian people, the Australian media and diplomats talk big on human rights around the region.

    You yourself have made disparaging remarks about the Indonesian military and their transgressions, but you don’t even want to discuss mistakes the Australians have made. In my case, probably fair enough, because you think you’re being set up. But it’s still worth discussing elsewhere.

  24. avatar David says:

    I’m sort of flattered by the concern of some for this site, but threads like this…well this is why I put it in “Asides”, lol, and if you choose to read it and get involved in it you’ve probably got yourself to blame.

  25. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Good attitude, Mr. Patoengs !

  26. avatar Lairedion says:

    I think IM is still informative with its articles. It saves me a lot of time of searching Indonesian news articles myself and through this site me and my wife got to know very good other sites like inilah.com.

    Oigal said:

    but as Teng says good job on screwing up a good website..

    Oigal, spare us from your appalling hypocrisy. You thoroughly enjoy commenting and arguing over here and you know it. Are we suddenly going into whinging mode?

    Everybody is entitled to have his/her own opinion but we should also be thankful this site is not overtly PC and into moderating every single comment. I have to agree with Patung, please feel free not to get involved and stick to reading articles alone if it bothers you. Me personally is having a lot of fun with commenting here.

    Achmad, be aware PN is not happy with using old Dutch spellings. He prefers Sukarno, Suharto and Murdani over Soekarno, Soeharto and Moerdani. I couldn’t explain to him proper names are the exception on the spelling reform of 1972.

  27. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Laird,

    As for what PN is not happy with, what can I say but “so what gituloh”!

    Both “Sukarno” and “Suharto” signed their names “Soeharto” and “Soekarno”… so I’d tell him to take it up with them, but he might have to wait for a while.

    Anyway, it’s all much of a muchness as these are transliterated from Javanese scripts, anyway.

    Why would I care what PN thinks ?

  28. avatar timdog says:

    Lairedion said:

    It saves me a lot of time of searching Indonesian news articles myself

    Oh dear…
    My original view of this website as a highly dubious one, driven by obscurely nefarious reasons to propogate an innacurate image of Indonesia being on the brink of being overrun by a one-dimensional force of darkness, has gradually been tempered to one of wry affection… and my view of the site’s enigmatic puppetmaster has followed a similar trajectory, based mainly on his formidable talent for photo captions (I’m not being facetious Mr Patung, I love ’em)…
    But hell, Lairedion, if Indonesia Matters is your main source of news on Indonesia, no wonder you have the views you do…

  29. avatar Lairedion says:

    timdog,

    The various articles posted by Patung are a good starting point for me to go and read the original articles. In this way IM has a portal function for me, next to throwing out baits to fish like you. As I said before through this site I got to know some other interesting other sites that I have bookmarked.

    From the “About section” of this site


    What are the sources for your stories?

    Mainly Indonesian language news agencies and newspapers. See the footnotes at the end of each story

    My main sources of Indonesian news always have always been my own relatives and connections next to Kompas (National), Pikiran Rakyat (Bandung/West Java) and sulutlink.com (Minahasa/Sulawesi Utara). And now I can add IM to that.

    You’re not so smart, are you, despite your extensive vocabulaire?

  30. avatar Robert says:

    timdog said:

    …obscurely nefarious reasons…

    If you thought obscure reasons look bad, then you haven’t seen obscurely nefarious reasons yet, that is even worse!

    …one-dimensional force of darkness…

    IM meets quantumphysics.

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