Islam vs Liberal Democracy

Aug 29th, 2008, in Opinion, by

Perseus on Francis Fukuyama and whether Islamism will derail Indonesia's new democracy.

In a recent article, writing in reaction to Russia's recent "clobbering" of Georgia, the noted American political theorist Francis Fukuyama, best known for his work The End of History, tells us smh that

US dominance is slipping.

and the

Russian and Chinese model of authoritarianism and modernisation offers a clear challenge to liberal democracy.

Even so Fukuyama assures us that liberal democracy will still prevail because "democracy and capitalism have no real competitors." Says Fukuyama:

"Democracy's only competitor in the realm of ideas is radical Islamism but the appeal of this kind of medieval Islamism is limited.

Despite recent authoritarian advances:

liberal democracy remains the strongest, most broadly appealing idea out there.

and even autocrats pay lip service to democratic rituals and grovel before capitalism.

Yet he concludes that autocratic regimes like Russia and China have nothing to offer beyond nationalism. They lack the brawn, cohesion and ideas required to dominate the global system and they don't dream of overthrowing the globalized economy.

It seems to me that Fukuyama is broadly correct. Liberal democracy for all its imperfections remains the most attractive show in town. But will Indonesia persist with its nascent democracy or will it take the path of sharia, dismantle Pancasila and embark on a more Islamist path? And what effect would this have on Indonesia's economic development and political stability?


57 Comments on “Islam vs Liberal Democracy”

  1. avatar Purba Negoro says:

    Welcome- sami-sami.

    Syncretism is a much nicer term than “FUBAR”, isn’t it?
    which if unaware is US Army slang for “Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition”
    Yes, the F is for “foul”… as soldiers are renowned for their clean mouths…

  2. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    LOL.

    It was because of this Javanese syncretism that we attracted the likes of newly converts White boys Dawud Farquhar and Barry Prima with their version of perfect Islam. They should have at least try to find out why after 700 years, Javanese is still not fully islamised. These Whiteys think they can islamised us within a year. hahahaha.

    Well, Toma who once said I was making up stories as all his Javanese friend are strict moslems; Hear it from PN – another Javanese.

    My in-law is a strict moslem, never missed his prayer; yet he had a large Buddha statue adorning his living room. Try moving it and he will fight tooth and nail.

  3. avatar Purba Negoro says:

    Lol.
    700 more years and they still won’t.

    Not only that- we hate being told how we do Islam “wrong”- so we Javanese are passive aggressive, actively stubbornly resistant to any and all change.
    We are very happy with the ways we have corrupted and cherry-picked religions just fine to suit us, thank-you very much.

    It’s like wayang- so many characters- all so very confusing and worthy of years of analysis. Or you can just snooze through until the interesting parts. Or even go outside, gamble on two beetles and smoke kretek.

    It’s the Javanese way: “Dasar wong Arab lan Mesir- kok ‘sok tahu semua, ya? Buset”.

  4. avatar Lairedion says:

    That is because Whites (especially of Anglo-Celtic descent) are not able to do something with moderation when they embrace the next big thing, whether it is Islam, Aerobics, dark room sex or Internet.

    I also made an earlier remark in the now closed Pedophile thread I do not hide the fact I strongly dislike the ongoing arrogance and misplaced supremacist behaviour of the White English Speaking World. We can witness this behaviour over and over again in various threads here on IM.

  5. avatar Oigal says:

    That is because Whites (especially of Anglo-Celtic descent) are not able to do something with moderation when they embrace the next big thing

    Laugh… like Nokia Phones, Marlboro Smokes, Americian Music or the darker side beating a petty thief to death, stoning churches, mosques…(aw come on…you weren;t serious about the Islam thing where you L?..thats too easy..)

    As an aside..what is the history of the word AMOK?

  6. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Nokia’s finnish, sunshine.

  7. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Cukurungan-you are a complete imbecile. You had to dig deeply into your history books to find this one didn’t you. 1800s, which year exactly? I’m talking about the here and now. We righted our wrongs and let’s not pretend here, ALL countries have some blood on their hands at some point in their history.
    But right now in 2008 you guys are torturing innocent Papuans while our aborigines enjoy welfare payments that would be the envy of your poor citizens from backwardsville.

    Friend many thank for your advise, in order to compare aple to aple between Indonesia and Australia, we are offering you two option:

    The first option, you are all whiteman shall go back original land in Europe and we will order all non- papuanse to return to their original Island.

    The second option, you have to wait at least another 200 years we will control papua, this is the same time as the Australian recognized that Aboriginal is also another human being, once papuanese Population is reduced as the aboriginal population now then we will give same treatment as you give it now to your aborginal brother.

    Please enjoy below:

    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/mar2005/pal1-m01.shtml

  8. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Mr Andy,

    It seemed that I was appraised Australian too good than they are deserved sees below:

    http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jBN6D6H5Rky2ZNrq4sx8RfGxQ0AA

    I would like to remind you that article is dated in 2008

  9. avatar Oigal says:

    Assmad.. as usual you missed the point..we do understand that it’s difficult to view a horizon from your self imposed, immature and oh so boring, lame, anti west, bule, oz…(….yawn) rants..

    Ok just for you.. “L” was making a rather one sided point that “whites” always embarce the next big thing/fad..which is amusing when you consider the headlone rush by Indonesians to fall into FAD mode…Who was the number 1 user of Nokia communicator in SE Asia (trick question..ok)..Which country was unable to use the majority of the communicator features due both infrastructure and concept restrictions (another trick question but to make it wasy for those who live in the rut..refer answer question one)..

    Even being nice, didn’t even mention the bizarre adoption of a hardline desert cult by some sections of the community at their expense of their own far more vibrant and inclusive culture..

    Have nice day (ok..i didn’t really mean that)

  10. avatar Oigal says:

    Cuk..what a hoot!! You do know you are supposed to refrain from the Jungle Juice this time of year don’t you?

  11. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Cuk..what a hoot!! You do know you are supposed to refrain from the Jungle Juice this time of year don’t you?

    Mr. Oigal…please again check carefully each of my wording…every word is representing the full refrain but it does not hide the truth need to be revealed in proper manner

  12. avatar Oigal says:

    Aww come on Cuk..you can do better than that sad excuse for a response..concentrate now ok

  13. avatar AchmadSudarsono says:

    “We” understand that it takes you a couple of gos to get your point across. But thanks for trying. And sharing.

    Why don’t you make a special point of making your views on religion known to the Indonesians around you this month ? That’d be a hoot.

  14. avatar Oigal says:

    Although Cuk, if you could take you mind off boring little anti-west rants for a while. The article you posted is quite valid and aborginal communities in Australia are a disgrace. For the sake of rational discussion (what a concept!) lets skip the silly notion all white fellas are going back to Europe. If it wasn’t Europeans at that time it would have been someone else so lets try and keep it a little real.

    I for one, have no idea what the solution should be, primarily these crimes and humilation are performed by Aborginals on other Aborginals albeit with the help of alcohol and other factors that were introduced with white settlement.

    Its not money based as aborginals are entitled to additional government health care above and beyond that available to non-aborginal australians and the have any number employment. welfare payments made (which, some would say add to the problem rather than provide any solutions).

    As I said the problem is way too complex for me to provide a solution and many many people have tried and by and large with good intentions despite some pretty negative results in the long term. One can but hope that the lastest forced intervention has some postive impact but perhaps not (based on history).

    One thing I am sure of, is xenophobic peanuts like yourself add little to any rational debate let alone a complex issue like this. However just for fun perhaps you could identify a successful Indonesian assitance program that has helped a minority tribal/ethnic/religious group. Not sure that, burning of churches, mosques, forced conversions are the best example so look forward to some others.

  15. avatar Oigal says:

    Assmad.. Amusing little thing aren’t you! Actually my views on religion are well known to those around me to you yours and to me mine..pretty simple really.

    I am pleased however that you finally were able to grasp the concept and you of all people (ok I use the term loosely) commenting on someones moral fortitude and courage is an outstanding piece of dry humour..I assume you had help?

  16. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Oigal,

    Sigh. Your views on religion. I doubt it. That’s your view on interpersonal relations. How would your landlord (if you have one), employees, servants, driver, neighbours, feel knowing you were an “Ateis”??

    I don’t use phrases like “moral fortitude,” because my prose hasn’t been ruined by the bureacracy. Might be easier just to say, “courage” next time, as the morality bit is implied.

    Happy to help your English expression anytime, my friend.

  17. avatar Andy says:

    Sigh. Your views on religion. I doubt it. That’s your view on interpersonal relations. How would your landlord (if you have one), employees, servants, driver, neighbours, feel knowing you were an “Ateis”??

    Right Achmad, your people can’t handle the fact that Oigal, myself and billions of others don’t fit into your fantasy world. The constitution of your country even can’t handle the people of the world who are not one of the 5 religions they accept in the world . In fact Achmad, can you handle the millions of Jews throughout the world? Or the atheists or communists? Until you can embrace ALL you are a negative shallow individual and need a lesson in cross-cultural relations.

  18. avatar Lairedion says:

    Andy said:

    Until you can embrace ALL you are a negative shallow individual and need a lesson in cross-cultural relations.

    It is very funny to hear this from an Aussie while it’s well-known Aussies have yet to communicate with their cultural different countrymen, the Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders. When will you embrace them in stead of marginalize, subdue and destroy them?

    They’re maybe much wrong with Indonesia but white English Speakers better clean up their own act before trying to teach the non-Caucasian world what’s right or wrong. When will you guys ever stop?

    FYI I don’t practice one of the six allowed religions of Indonesia.

  19. avatar janma says:

    It is very funny to hear this from an Aussie while it’s well-known Aussies have yet to communicate with their cultural different countrymen, the Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders. When will you embrace them in stead of marginalize, subdue and destroy them?

    They’re maybe much wrong with Indonesia but white English Speakers better clean up their own act before trying to teach the non-Caucasian world what’s right or wrong. When will you guys ever stop?

    I agree When WILL you guys ever stop?! all of you…. whites, bloody browns, caucasions, what bloody ever! you are all the bloody same!? don’t you get it? you all have good and bad, light and dark, openess and bigotry, empathy and self centeredness, superiority and inferiority. not only that your governments are all standing in the same moral footprint…. there isn’t one government that is ‘good’ and one that is ‘bad’… a government will act for it’s own survival, just as you all would. all countries have skeletons in the closet, they all have different rates of coming to terms with various sordidness in their histories, of righting wrongs and trying for a better future. this back and forthing does nothing, it doesn’t convince anyone that one country or one people or one race is better than another. Just give it up! try something constructive…. this is like ping pong!

  20. avatar Oigal says:

    How would your landlord (if you have one), employees, servants, driver, neighbours, feel knowing you were an “Ateis”??

    This is why you are such obnoxious little creature..rare gems of intelligent points, yet you do not hesitate to use the suffering of others to prop up your inane litttle baiting. Which I can only put down to an extermely sheltered upbringing and/or a lack of maturity.

    Never the less, your Ateis comment is valid although is that a reflection on me or the communities in which I live that have suffered under decades under a poorly structured, xenophobic, nationalist education sysyem more baised towards a complaint populace than any real ability to apply critical thinking? You and I both know that Ateis has many naunces in Indonesia, not the least being linked to “communist sympathiser” (and despite Ross’s common belief, I certainly don’t fit that profile, rampant capitialist perhaps would be closer).

    Having said that, one of the biggest hurdles we faced was converting our business from one religion to a multi religion workplace which required the removal of a number of people in minor positions of authority over a lengthy period. A workplace free of discrimation based on merit is an achioeved we are now justifiably proud of.

    So yea, Feel free to worship which ever particular imaginary friend you like, but your belief has no place in the workplace or my home. Certainly killing or burning or harming people over whose imaginary friend is the best is the height of mass insanity.

  21. avatar Cukurungan says:

    The constitution of your country even can’t handle the people of the world who are not one of the 5 religions they accept in the world . In fact Achmad, can you handle the millions of Jews throughout the world? Or the atheists or communists? Until you can embrace ALL you are a negative shallow individual and need a lesson in cross-cultural relations.

    Our constitution was created by people who fought for creation of this country and they were not Jew or Ateist but most of them was muslim, therefore, we have no obligation to handle Jew or Atheist while your contry which was built upon plight massive genocide and anihilation of the million aboriginal people.

    Shame on Australian who claim Australia are their own land while it was cristal clear that it was only stolen land.

    However just for fun perhaps you could identify a successful Indonesian assitance program that has helped a minority tribal/ethnic/religious group. Not sure that, burning of churches, mosques, forced conversions are the best example so look forward to some others.

    We consider our Papuans as our own brother and Papuans do not need our assistance , they can stand in their own foot what we are doing just to protect them from danger of the white predator.
    In case you do not know I am glad to inform you that We have minister from Papuans ethnic, we have governor also from Papuans ethnic, we have so many major from Papuan ethnic, we have governor from dayak ethnic, we have minister from Bali ethnic and all of them are non-Muslim.

    Right now your turn, tell us when the white man will stop in abusing and manipulating our aboriginal brother.

  22. avatar Oigal says:

    tsk tsk..cuk your are fibbing again!! why is there current unrest in Kalimantan at the moment..Wouldn’t have anything to with ethnic representation would it..

    Feeling confident..and yet blind panic at separatism and referendums…

  23. avatar Lairedion says:

    Well, Aussies continue to keep ignorant towards their fellow indigenous countrymen. Just came in today:

    Didgeridoo book upsets Aborigines

    That’s right. When will they ever stop being ignorant?

  24. avatar Lairedion says:

    Sorry Patung. Perhaps the latest comments are to be transferred to the newly-created Neighbourly Affairs thread.

  25. avatar Oigal says:

    Didgeridoo book upsets Aborigines

    Aww come on L, not you as well..is that the best you can do..my goodness it almost rates up there with banning certain people from conducting private religious activities in the manner the manner they see fit…

    Well besides the fact the Site is called INDONESIA Matters..if you really want to play the very usual (but sad) kids defence of “We should we fix anything, they are naughty too”

    Mind you its good for laugh (and exactly the same agrument L is making) when yet another govt thief gets with his hand in the honey pot…”Aww it’s not fair I was only doing what the previous guy did..or I didn’t take as much as he did…or my boss told me too)

    Not sure why the basic concept of wrong is wrong..don’t matter who else you point too..doesn’t seem to apply.

    Other countries have thieves as well of course..and they may deny, lie and cheat but the defence that someone else did it so its ok and normal only seems to apply here..interesting..

  26. avatar Oigal says:

    “We should we fix anything, they are naughty too” OOPS..“WHY should we fix anything, they are naughty too”

    Sorry had AS moment there I think also repeated myself

  27. avatar Oigal says:

    Oh Sorry PN.. I should expanded that a bit to make it more relevent to you

    Feeling confident..and yet blind panic at separatism and referendums

    …like Scotland

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