Death Row Inmates & Debate

Jul 25th, 2008, in Opinion, by

Ross sees sinister motives behind renewed debate over the death penalty.

Sound and fury and firing squads

Tuesday’s Jakarta Post had a frontpage report on the handful of convicts recently executed, whom it identified as two Nigerian drug-traffickers and certain Indonesians who murdered several neighbours. It might usefully have gone into detail about the so-called ‘dukun‘, who killed 42 innocents, all women, so far as I know, and was greatly mourned by Amnesty International, a body ever-ready to shed tears for scumbags.

Tuesday’s item displayed the JP’s notorious left-lib bias, in its description of the five executions as a death penalty ‘spree’. Such hyperbole, to describe five instances of capital punishment in a country of more than two hundred million people, where Islamist swine who behead schoolgirls on religious grounds get preposterous sentences of a mere twenty years, is just daft.

But perhaps there is more to this than mere bad journalism. The night before, we had tuned into Metro TV’s late current affairs programme, which focused also on ‘hukum mati’, with an underlying theme of how capital punishment in this country seemed unfairly to target the less well-off.

Perhaps so, and all the better reason to expand its use dramatically, I reflected, my thoughts interestingly mirrored on the 22nd, when I got home in time to catch another Metro tea-time feature, which centred on the idea that corruption convicts ought to face the death penalty, a proposal floated, if I’m not mistaken, by Wiranto in his last presidential bid, and one that many locals and expats would surely welcome.

Then, after I’d devoured my nightly ration of rendang, TV One had yet another programme about executions, in which the phrase the ‘death penalty season’ was deployed (more hyperbole!) Next day, TV One featured a debate on capital punishment (7.30pm. 23/7) which would have been better if they’d got some big-name speakers, but proved lively nevertheless.

What fascinates me is this sudden prominence across a wide range of media of this issue.

None of the death row inmates was remotely to be lamented, except naturally by their immediate kin, and in that dukun’s case probably not much by them. So why the fuss?

That question might be answered by another article, on page 2 of Tuesday’s JP, in which the devoutly-to-be-wished-for, but so far unrealized, execution of Amrozi and the other Bali Beasts is promised ‘before Ramadan’. The latest pathetic excuse for delaying this gladsome day is the failure of the Attorney General’s office to receive a copy of the Supreme Court’s rejection of the strangely reluctant ‘martyrs’ appeal. (You’d think all those gorgeous maidens in paradise would be a destination eagerly sought!)

Amrozi
Amrozi

I’m not totally familiar with the geography of government buildings in Jakarta, but one would have imagined that a keen tukang ojek could have fetched that necessary scrap of paper across town inside half an hour. Never mind! Clearly there is no great sense of urgency in the corridors of power to mete out justice to Amrozi and his fellow-bigots along the same lines as was done with the three Christians in the outer islands a year ago. For already we have a spokesman, a deputy A-G no less, Abdul Hakim Ritonga, asserting that if the good deed isn’t done by the Holy Month, further postponement may be necessary, ‘as otherwise we’d be showing no respect to Muslims’.

Fabianus Tibo, Dominggus Da Silva and Marianus Riwu
Fabianus Tibo, Dominggus Da Silva & Marianus Riwu.

So Amrozi may get another round of play-time, to avoid upsetting ‘Muslims’? Very odd! Decent Muslims, as opposed to the Laskar Setan caricatures exemplified by Amrozi and Co., should surely be sufficiently upset by the abominations committed in their name by Jamaah Islamiyah and be anxious to see those pigs put down asap. It is a tad unconvincing that the occasion of religious ritual should be offered as a potential cop-out, the executions possibly dragged out for further long weeks.

Of maybe more significance, therefore, was the JP’s inclusion of a comment by SBY’s office that the President was bound by the law and could not intervene unless a request for clemency landed on his desk. The Man is not going to step in – unless he is pushed.

Now reconsider all that media sound and fury. What does it portend? Why, this month, the sudden televised debate, why, all of a sudden, arguments deployed to revise the scope of death penalty law?

‘Kontroversi Hukum Mati’ was the tag attached to several tv items. There is no ‘controversy’ in Indonesia, except for that generated by a handful of elitist intellectuals, similar to their counter-parts in the West, who are hopelessly out of touch with what the man on the Clapham Omnibus, (or, here, the M11 microlet through Slipi) really thinks. Paradoxically, the left-libbers for once share (no doubt uncomfortably) a goal with those Islamists who object to their activist allies paying a fair price for wholesale slaughter of innocents.

Between them, it could be argued, they – or at least their media pals – have set off a disputatious chorus calculated to stall justice for the murderous Bali Bomb pigs. What will happen if the ‘death to corruptors’ proposal is taken up and and a wholesale review of the law invoked? Would pending sentences be held back, sine die, or what? That would let lots of people off the hook.

It may be that SBY will have the guts to get on with the executions, rather than quail before local abolitionist/fanatic rantings, endorsed by the EU, Amnesty and Al Qaeda. Let’s hope he makes the right decision.


60 Comments on “Death Row Inmates & Debate”

  1. dewaratugedeanom says:

    @ the opponents of the death penalty

    There are certainly many valid arguments for the abolishment of the death penalty. Nevertheless, having seen life with my own eyes the horror and devastation these terrorists are resposible for, I certainly won’t lose any sleep when they finally put the beasts to rest. Never mind the 72 virgins. I may even volunteer to pull the trigger.

  2. Shloka says:

    @ timdog,

    Did you not realise that I was chastising dewa? I have indeed learnt a lot from you. I used to think wanting to travel my country in safety is survival instinct, now I know its “tribalism”. You mentioned in a particular thread that you have no exact solution. Were my country intact or partitioned, I presume threat to life and limb would continue. There are bombs planted by fundies in Turkey,Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia and muslim regions of Indonesia, not to mention the more fundamentalist nations like Iraq, Lebanon, Algeria,Pakistan and Afghanistan. So I presume bombings would continue in India as well, with or without a partition. There are bombings in Indian mosques as well, done not by Hindus but by rival Shia\Sunnis. As rival groups bomb Pakistani mosques too, I presume a not partitioned India would hardly make a difference.

    So I have figured out your solution and was busy explaining it to people like dewa or Lairedion who don’t get it. Solution:

    1) If dewa fears for his life in Bali, as he might after two terrorist attacks or if the Balinese are perturbed by their loss in earnings, they should know that their fear of life isn’t due to their innate survival instinct, its actually tribalism. Rather they should try to be good human beings like you, and treat their safety as unimportant. They should treat all Muslims with even an iota of secularism as angels, and make the utmost effort to not anger them, and if they forgot or didn’t do so, they deserve bombings for wiping out the peaceful Muslims and turnong them into terrorists. You think making fun of Muslims would turn them into terrorists but you just don’t believe making fun of Balinese insecurity after two devastating terror attacks might make provoke the Balinese into terrorism, do you? Nay, you know the Balinese and the Indians, you know I or my ilk will not bomb London trains in retaliation, so we’re fair game for you. I remember my mom telling my older brother when he had a fight with a much younger boy, “Next time you want to fight, pick someone able to stand up to you.” 😉

    2) The Muslim nations, without exception are all prone to terrorist attacks, but those aren’t done by their Christian\Hindu\ Jewish minorities in retaliation or to avenge imaginary grievances, although they face enough discrimination and even death. Those are done by Muslims against Muslims. So whenever Egypt suffurs a terrorist bombing and has a year of fewer tourists, leading to major loss of revenue, it isn’t done by the Coptic Christian minority. However, when tourist cities like Indonesia’s Bali or India’s Jaipur suffer bombings, its again due to Muslims. From your statements, I’ve gathered a “solution” not to stop Islamic terror, but to make others more tolerant. I was just explaining it to dewarat and hopefully he could explain it to others, when you so rudely inturrupted. The solution: Treat Islamist terror attacks as natural calamities. Those in Bali who lost their lives should simply treat it as they would an act of nature. If they get fewer tourists, they should believe that they live in an earthquake prone area, instead of an Islamist terror prone area. 🙂

    Again a couple of days back, Muslim terrorists planted bombs in the Indian city of Bangalore, which is a major technological hub of India. Two died and many were wounded. Bangalore hasn’t any anti Muslim history, but we know nature strikes for unknowable reasons, don’t we? 😉 I know that my fear of Calcutta as the next terrorist target is pure “tribalism”. I also know that Muslim terrorists have just as much right to strike anywhere in India as a flood, earthquake or tsunami does. I have as much right to complain about my safety from the forces of nature as from the forces of militant Islam. I have digested your lessons well and was just explaining them to the ignorant and vindictive. For some reason, people still differentiate between the two. 😉

    You dare compare those poor,poor Jews with any Muslims? Hitler wiped out a third of all Jews. Please, with your considerable knowledge, name a single Jew who blew himself up in a German restaurant in retaliation. Please if you want to, name the single German mall where Jews planted bombs in retaliation. Oh and to continue, please name the famous German or European tourist spot where Jews planted bombs for real or imaginary grievances. There are threads here of anti Chinese violence in Indonesia, but I haven’t seen Chinese planting bombs in all sorts of Indonesian cities either. And of course, Pakistan is leading Muslim nations in terrorism, but I haven’t seen a single bomb in a mosque or public place planted by the Hindu\ Christian\ Sikh minority. LTTE causes trouble in Sri Lanka just like certain Christian members of the PLO cause trouble in Israel. As Tamils in India and Christians in, for example, Lairedion’s Netherlands are peaceful, we can hope that a change in certain circumstances would bring about a change in these people too. But since Muslims in Pakistan, and much of the Muslim world as well as India cause bombings, I can’t figure out what change will cure this problem. Even you don’t have a solution to the FPI or Muslim Brotherhood.

    Oh and with your interest in Xianjiang, the Muslims in Xianjiang have taken the “credit” for bus bombings in Beijing, and threatened the forthcoming Olympics. Funny, it was Xianjiang and not Tibet threatening Olympics. Oh well, I’ll preach to everyone that terrorist threat in Olympics is the same as another earthquake hitting the Olympics, and there is no point in blaming anyone for either terrorism or earthquakes 😉

    Oh and have a lovely vacation, I truly wish others would have your penchant for travelling to risky places, poor Bankok, Bali and countless Indian cities are seeing a much smaller footfall of tourists. 🙁

    I also sincerely hope neither an Islamist terror attack nor a natural calamity harms you. I know that you don’t differentiate between the two and with your useful explanations, I too have learnt to avoid differentiating between the two. I hope you’ve taught this lesson to all your other well wishers! 🙂

    Finally I’m against any death penalty anywhere on earth for any cause. I had learnt a very useful lesson from you and was just using this thread to convey it to dewa and others. This was my “dawa” on your behalf, but no gratitude from you.

  3. Lairedion says:

    timdog said:

    “all muslims should eat pig sh*t and be executed, on Hari Raya Idul Fitri!

    The first part I never said and I never will and the second part I also suggested to some of my Muslims relatives and they agree with me.

    And now I’m going on holiday for a month, so, with love and affection, da-da!

    Happy holidays, timdog and don’t forget to bring enough sun tan and your union-sponsored Premier League jersey.

  4. Odinius says:

    Shloka said:

    Did you not realise that I was chastising dewa? I have indeed learnt a lot from you. I used to think wanting to travel my country in safety is survival instinct, now I know its “tribalism”. You mentioned in a particular thread that you have no exact solution. Were my country intact or partitioned, I presume threat to life and limb would continue. There are bombs planted by fundies in Turkey,Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia and muslim regions of Indonesia, not to mention the more fundamentalist nations like Iraq, Lebanon, Algeria,Pakistan and Afghanistan. So I presume bombings would continue in India as well, with or without a partition. There are bombings in Indian mosques as well, done not by Hindus but by rival Shia\Sunnis. As rival groups bomb Pakistani mosques too, I presume a not partitioned India would hardly make a difference.

    First of all, my condolences on the horrible spate of bombings. My heart goes out to all the victims of these cowardly, viscious attacks.

    Now that said, I’m a bit confused as to whether or not you are saying that violence in India is unidirectional, from Muslims to Hindus. If so, that’s just not true in any sense: the various radical Hindu groups have again and again proven ready and willing to provoke large-scale violence against India’s Muslim minority. So the violence moves in both directions…and as Prof. Varshney’s brilliant analysis shows, the key isn’t the proportion or organization of Hindus or Muslims, but rather when civil society is organized along intracommunal, rather than intercommunal lines.

  5. Shloka says:

    Excellent Odinius!
    Please note the locations of attacks. Jaipur, Hydrabad, Bangalore- not unidirectional?
    For one thing, I never expect any Muslim to forgive and forget, so I will not expect them to be like the Balinese, and please don’t interpret this statement as an attack on Muslims. I understand that human nature is often such that people retaliate.

    Jaipur is India’s biggest tourist centre, so it was bombed by Muslims, exactly like Bali. A Bangladeshi terrorist outfit, Huji is responsible. I will quote to you the statement sent by the Muslims,The email said India should stop supporting the US in the international arena, “and if you do continue then get ready to face more attacks at other important tourist places…”. The email said, “Jaipur has been chosen to blow up your tourism structure….”.
    It also said, “this is a clear warning to you (the US and the UK)…Don’t send your people to India and if you do so then you people will be welcomed by our suicide attackers.” Exactly as tourists to Muslim nations like Egypt are welcomed by Muslim suicide attackers.

    See? They used Jaipur as a “warning” to the West and to destroy tourism, exactly as Bali. Jaipur is India’s biggest tourist spot, just like Bali is Indonesia’s.

    The point of not unidirectional is also fallacious in another respect- its not only Hindus who’re bombed by Muslims in India. You might have heard of the Sunni female suicide bombers in Iraq a couple of days ago, who killed many Shia pilgrims. Similarly, bombings happen in Pakistan, which are Muslim attacks on Muslims. India’s mosques are attacked as well.Those mosques aren’t bombed by Hindus, but by rival Muslim groups.If terrorist attacks by Muslims is solely due to Hindu provocation, how do you explain that terrorism in Pakistan is a regular occurence, not by its perpetually shrinking minority communities, but by Muslims against Muslims? Oh and India has millions of Bangladeshi illegal immigrants, and thousands of Pakistanis who come to India on tourist visas, only to go untreaceable on expiry of visas, while the minority communities of their countries become smaller and smaller. Hmm, maybe they’re masochists who come to be oppressed and discriminated against? 🙂

    As for in retaliation, if say the whole archipelago of Indonesia was majority Balinese Hindu. Muslim terrorists attacked it many times. Ten times there won’t be retaliations, but the 11th time? We know how the Ahmadiyyas were banned, don’t we, although they were peaceful citizens. There was a thread on IM recently about the number of Chinese tourists Indonesia was trying to attract, if you remember. Imagine if the Ahmadiyyas had gone about bombing Chinese tourists to prove some point, what would happen to them.

    Terrorism by Muslims isn’t limited to India, so the question of Hindu provocation is pretty weak. Every Muslim nation- Turkey, Tunisia, Indonesia, Jordan, Morocco, Egypt- to name the more “moderate” has in the last few years been victims of terrorism( and I’m excluding the theocracies like Iran and Saudi, or the war zones, out of kindness), but the perpetrators have been Muslims as well. Similarly, the Muslim minority has in India bombed all sorts of unpredictable locations. In one of the most progressive Muslim Arab nations- Tunisia-Al Queda bombings killed German tourists. Retaliation to Hindus who most of them haven’t even heard of? Tunisia has 2% Christian\Jews. What if they had been the ones carrying out bombings? Nine times out of ten, Hindus haven’t retaliated, which I can say is remarkable restraint.

    What if the Christian\Ahmadiyya\Chinese minority of Indonesia had bombed Jakarta practically every year, and sent threateneing messages addressing their grievances? Already these communities have been subjected to discrimination, but don’t retaliate. But there’s a point when patience runs out, you know, and Muslims have been trying the patience of much of the world, or maybe much of the world is prejudiced. 😉

    You’re expecting a non Muslim majority nation to be as tolerant of Al Queda style bombings as Egypt was to the Luxor bombings by Islamists. How would Egypt have reacted had the Coptic Christian minority been behind the deadly Luxor blasts?

    You also might be aware of the Paris blasts done by Algerian Islamists, who were waging war (again Muslims v. Muslims) in Algeria, but inexplicably decided to extend their jihad to Parisian soil. France didn’t retaliate, just like Indian Hindus mostly don’t. But how long will the French stay silent if it became a yearly occurence?

    Of course, excellent arguments to the contrary are always available. For more such arguments about the global Muslim angst- I recommend Edward Said’s excellent “Orientalism” which says the Muslims are angry due to the Western colonial past, and he puts forth a very strong case. Just to counter that book, just look at the immigrant populations of Britain, which has a minority of both Muslims and Hindus. 4 out of 10 Muslims University students in Britain want the introduction of Shariah, but there’re no such demands from Hindus. British Muslims are the poorest and live on welfare. Both India and Pakistan were the victims of Britain’s colonialism, but the British Muslims bombed trains in London, not the Hindus. Now I read a poll where a majority U.K. British expect another major terrorist attack on their soil very soon. people on this thread like timdog, complain about how Muslims are discriminated against in U.K., and not allowed to turn a Methodist Church into a mosque. Just like India provides jobs and safety to Pakistani\Bangladeshi immmigrants, Europe did the same. After the multifarious bombings they faced in return, they’ve decided to become stricter on immigration, citing lack of integration by Muslims. In Asia-when Pakistan, Bangladesh or Indonesia are bombed, its by Muslims. Again, when Thailand, Phillipines or India are bombed, its by Muslims. Of course, intellectuals like Naipaul will blame Islam, while others like Varshney will blame non Muslims for not being more “tolerant”.

    The U.K example shows the difference between the two groups pretty clearly. Of course, you can always find excellent counter arguments from some eminent intellectuals anywhere on earth, who make a very strong case why its actually the U.K. Muslims who’re discriminated against, just like the Irish were and the Hindus pampered etcetera etcetera. 😉

    Best solution to Muslim nations? None, educate your fellow Muslims maybe or put up with it. Best solution to non Muslim nations- treat attacks as natural calamities, which are inevitable and blame yourself for being “richer” than Muslims, not being sensitive enough and so on and so forth. 🙂

  6. Ross says:

    Returning t the point I was making in the initial post, I see yesterday’s JP reported the Muslim Lawyers’ Team (imagine having a sectarian legal group) is now arguing that the firing squad is a form of torture and thus unconstitutional!
    For terrorists willing to accept martyrdom, they are doing a splendid job of wriggling like the worms they are.
    I do feel Amrozi’s evident cowardice in the face of proper consequences shows us that the death penalty still packs a punch. If the regime here does enfroce the law and execute the swine, it will of course see demos from undesirables like the MUI and FPI, but it will ensure that other would-be bombers will think carefully. Load those guns, SBY!

  7. Shloka says:

    @ Odinius,

    I’m again referring to some Muslim terrorist attacks specifically in 2008, by Islamist terrorists( I’m excluding Marxist\Leninist ones of all faiths, be they the Kurd separatists or the LTTE. The Kurds probably were behind the Istanbul bombings on this Monday)

    I’m also excluding perpetual war zones like Pakistan or Algeria and many many more situated in the Muslim world.

    Take Turkey:The United States Consulate in Turkey was bombed by Islamists this year, leading to deaths. It reminded me of the time the U.S. Consulate was bombed by Muslims in my hometown, Kolkata, a few years back. The Hindus in Kolkata provoked the Muslims in Kolkata to bomb the United States Embassy? Or maybe the half dozen Hindus in Turkey, working in the Indian Consulate in Turkey were the instigators behind the bombings of the U.S. Consulate there? “Multidirectional”, anyone?

    Next take Yemen:Belgian tourists were attacked in Yemen, again in 2008. Yemeni Muslims died in the attack, and Belgian tourists were grieviously injured, repeating the Muslim pattern of selecting tourists and tourist spots, be it Indonesia’s Bali, India’s Jaipur or purely an Arab destination. Where’s the “multidirectional” in that?

    I’m not going into the attacks of previous years in Muslim nations, in which all the perpetrators were Muslims, but for some reason the Damascus bombings come to my mind. This particular bombing in Syria in 2006, wasn’t done by Syria’s Christian minority(no issue of multidirectional again!) but by Islamists. As Queen Rania of Jordan has rightly noted, Muslims are the biggest victims of terrorism, just like they are the biggest perpetrators. You might have heard of the popular Arab saying, “Me against my brother, me and my brother against my cousins.” In most Middle East nations, as there’re very few minorities, who silently bear the oppression, as they know what will happen if they start counter bombings, Muslim bombings are a case of Shias against Sunnis, or Sunnis against Alevis (re Sivas Massacre in Turkey in 1993) This is “me against my brother.”

    However, as soon as a significant proportion of the population is non Muslim- like in Lebanon or India, its “me against my brother,” as well as “Me and my brother against our cousins.” Today there’s no shortage of intellectuals either in the West or India, who’ll try to explain away why Muslims behave as they do.

    India currently ranks 35th in the Democracy Index, significantly above Israel and quite high above all Muslim majority nations, which is a great achievement for a nation with a billion+ people, a third world nation with many languages, regions and religions. We would like to maintain good relations with the United States, which isn’t exactly helped by Muslims bombing U.S. Embassies. In Kashmir, Muslims oppress Hindus but Hindus instead of retaliating flee to refugee camps in other regions of India. Likewise, the main revenue earner in Jaipur was foreign tourists, but Jaipur Hindus will have a financially weak year ahead, just like Muslims in Casablanca in Morocco would after blasts there. After the Muslim blasts in India’s technological hub of Bangalore, foreign investors are wary of investing in Indian software, and U.K. U.S.A. and others have issued warnings for prospective tourists from their nations.After some years of quitely bearing this, there comes a breaking point.

    Snyway, coming back to the issue at hand, if death is allowed, why not “death by a thousand cuts”?

  8. dewaratugedeanom says:

    @ Shloka

    The email said India should stop supporting the US in the international arena, “and if you do continue then get ready to face more attacks at other important tourist places…”. The email said, “Jaipur has been chosen to blow up your tourism structure….”.

    As for in retaliation, if say the whole archipelago of Indonesia was majority Balinese Hindu. Muslim terrorists attacked it many times. Ten times there won’t be retaliations, but the 11th time?

    Don’t bring me to ideas or I might form a Balinese terrorist militia and plant bombs in Amsterdam and Scheveningen because Dutch Prime Minister Balkenende brownnosed our president SBY on behalf of Geert Wilders’ film ‘Fitna’, thereby minimizing the plight of the Balinese who had suffered the same terror Geert Wilders was denouncing. Oh yes, and we also haven’t forgotten the puputan of Badung in 1906 and Klungkung in 1908. Our revenge on the Dutch is therefore legitimate and will be inevitable as a tsunami after an earthquake. At the same time terror and violence will become less unidirectional and more fairly distributed. Shiva is great!

    (For the few on this forum who aren’t able to differentiate between sarcasm and reality: this was sarcasm)

  9. Shloka says:

    The Muslims in Europe are the poorest, ghettoized and live on social benefits. They form a larger part of the prison population. Exactly the same as the Muslims of India. The best part is that, in Malaysia, after decades of positive discrimination by the government,(after riots broke out, again the propagators were the Malays) the ethnic Malay Muslims continue to lag behind the Chinese and Hindu Indians. The Chinese and Indian Hindus didn’t respond by bombing Muslims after the “unidirectional” attacks on them, or the preferential treatment given to Malays over jobs, they quitely continued to outperform them economically. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

    In Britain, where the Muslim population exceeds 1.8 million people, thirteen percent (13%) said that another 9/11 was justified, and fifty percent (50%) said they would consider becoming a suicide bomber “if forced to live like Palestinians.” Almost 200,000 Muslims sympathized with Osama bin Ladin, according to polls. Imagine, if 19 suicide bombers can kill 3000 on 9\11, what could so many do.

    Within European governments, there is a growing sentiment that rogue mosques are bent on destroying the West and that a foreign policy based upon appeasement of Arab regimes is simply not working. In response, police across the EU now monitor prayer meetings in mosques, and media accounts of the anti-Western and anti-Semitic sermons from European Islamic imams are fuelling public anger. But the Muslim community is pushing back. The French are being intimidated for banning Muslim headscarves, the Dutch for films deemed offensive to Islamic practices, and the British for supporting a “Crusader war” against Islam. Again, there’s no shortage of Varshney like intellectuals in the West, who claim its all the West’s fault. 😉

    In the Netherlands, in the aftermath of 9/11, the weekly magazine “Contrast” took a poll showing that just under half of Dutch Muslims were in “complete sympathy” with the attacks.

    For the most tolerant of peoples (whose approach to past terrorist threats had simply been to sentence “offenders” to 120 hours of community service), van Gogh’s murder was too much even for the Dutch. Signs began appearing throughout the city – “If you don’t like it, leave.” In the wake of the van Gogh murder, Pakistani, Kurdish, and Moroccan terrorist cells were discovered to be operating in the land of religious tolerance. The Hague-based “Capital Network,” (out of which van Gogh’s killer came) was discovered to have had contact with terrorists involved in the 2003 Casablanca bombings. See? Muslim terrorists “Think globally, act locally.” 🙂

    One Dutch newspaper carried this line “Unilateral tolerance in a world of intolerance is like unilateral disarmament in a world of armed camps: It regards hope as a better basis for policy than reality.” I think this is a very beautiful way to describe non Muslims angry with Muslims, be it the Indian Hindus, Thai Buddhists or Netherlands and France. It also shows how intellectuals like Varshney are demanding the impossible from non Muslims, and their vision, like Marx’s is unrealisable and too Utopian.

    In Britain, new anti-terrorism laws under discussion would forbid suspects from meeting certain people, impose curfews or electronic tagging on them or confine them to house arrest and, unlike previous measures which were based on immigration law and applied only to foreigners, the new measures could be used against British nationals. Even more significantly, the government would not have to prove suspects had committed a crime.

    In December, the government also instituted an anti-terror command headquarters at a secret location in Berlin, and on January 1st, a new law went into effect requiring detailed background checks for every immigrant applying for residency and permitting the deportation of “Islamic hate-preachers.”

    I just wonder, there are other traditional cultures around the world too, who’ve faced Western imperialism in the past and Americanization at present. Why aren’t Indian Hindus, Chinese or Thai Buddhists a security threat? These communities face racism too, sometimes outright assaults, thus they could also justify terrorism as non- unidirectional.

    Europe has uncovered several terrorist plots in the past. Britain and France have foiled plots to bomb Heathrow Airport and a supermarket in Paris respectively. India however lacks the sophisticated technology to do the same, besides people like Varshney, far from preventing deaths, will actively make the problem worse by criticising any tough anti terrorism measures.

    I had discovered a “Hindu” terrorist in U.K. for Odinius, his name is Dhiren Barot. Oops, he turned out to be an ex Hindu, who after his conversion to Islam, joined jihadist associations and planned bombings. Exactly like that Dutch woman who converted to Islam, and volunteered for suicide bombing in Iraq. So Hindus in Britain, and white Christian ladies in Netherlands are potential terrorists after all, but only after they convert to Islam. 😉

    In any case, this thread isn’t about Muslim terrorism but death penalty, and it should remain so.

  10. perseus says:

    For terrorists willing to accept martyrdom, they are doing a splendid job of wriggling like the worms they are.
    I do feel Amrozi’s evident cowardice in the face of proper consequences shows us that the death penalty still packs a punch. If the regime here does enfroce the law and execute the swine, it will of course see demos from undesirables like the MUI and FPI, but it will ensure that other would-be bombers will think carefully. Load those guns, SBY!

    My own views on the death penalty are that it should only be applied to genocides and mass murderers (say > 10 victims). I don’t believe it should be applied to your common and garden murderer or drug smugglers. The Bali Bombers meet the criteria of mass murder however and I daresay they will exit this world soon enough. Good riddance.

  11. Purba Negoro says:

    The answer is simple- then if the ever emasculated Left wing sneering moral onanists win, perhaps they will apparently mass suicide.

    I’m sure death by ‘accidental’ gay bondage asphyxiation would be most appropriate for these anti-death penalty angst ridden uphill-gardeners.

  12. tomaculum says:

    Shloka,
    The Muslims in Europe are the poorest, ghettoized and live on social benefits. They form a larger part of the prison population.
    I don’t know where you live.
    I live in Europe, and I know, that many of those moslems are ghettoizing theirself. They live there, earn their money there, if they are jobless they will get unemployment aid and social coverage.
    I know moslems, who don’t respect the local culture and calling the locals names like “pork eater”, “infidel” etc. There are moslems don’t want to accept the local culture and live their “traditions” (brother killing sister because the sister was allied to an infidel boy or because the sisiter refused a forced marriage).
    You read nowadays so much about jihad and threats from f.e. Osama bin Laden (is he still alive?) cs.
    No wonder if there is an increasing distrust against Islam in Europe.
    They form a larger part of the prison population? I don’t know this “fact”, but I know many problems like those of the “Albanian mafia”. And do you know that in some cities in Germany f.e. the red light areas are the Turks are very involved? They are indeed more and more displaced by other groups, but not yet completely.

  13. Shloka says:

    @ tomaculum,
    Muslims do form a larger part of the prison populations in relation to their total population in most of Europe. More worrying, the inmates in jail and the imams pose terrorist threats (nothing unexpected in this) 😉

    Spain’s chief counterterrorism magistrate, Baltazar Garzón, said recently that the men accused of plotting to blow up the country’s main counterterrorism court were recruited from among fellow inmates by an Islamic militant serving time for credit card fraud.
    Most famously, Richard Reid, who tried to blow up a Miami-bound airliner in December 2001 using a bomb in his shoe, converted to Islam while in a British jail. I love the way Europe manages to foil most Muslim terrorist attacks. In my country, it isn’t possible due to lack of sophisticated technology and more importantly, too many P.C. type intellectuals like the Varshney guy mentioned by Odinius, who’ll protest any tough anti terror regulations as unfairly discriminating aganist Muslims, and then blame the country for not being fair enough to Muslims, should terrorism occur. France has Operation Vigipirate to tackle terrorism, and Muslim nations like Egypt have to have draconian anti terrorism laws to protect their Muslim citizens from Muslim terror. 😉

    Muslims in European prisons:
    Belgium – 16% (12.8% Moroccans, 3.1% Turks) (EUMAP), 35% (NEWS)

    Denmark – 20% (NEWS)

    England+Wales – 11% (NEWS)

    France – 50%-70% (NEWS, NEWS, NEWS)

    Germany – 18% foreigners, lowest estimate for Muslims – 5% (EUMAP)

    Italy – 40% foreigners, 8% Moroccans (NEWS)

    The Netherlands: 20%, youth prisons – 26% (EUMAP)

    Spain – 70% (NEWS)

    Its quite evident where I live from even my posts on this thread but I could just as well have been an Iranian Zoroastrian, a Thai Buddhist, a Filipino Catholic, a Dutch non believer\Huguenot, a British Anglican or a Russian Orthodox,a Lebanese Christian or a non Muslim or even a moderate Muslim in practically any land touched by Muslims and my complaints about perpetual Muslim “jihad” and terrorism would be the same.

  14. Enigmatic says:

    It may be that SBY will have the guts to get on with the executions, rather than quail before local abolitionist/fanatic rantings, endorsed by the EU, Amnesty and Al Qaeda. Let’s hope he makes the right decision.

    I doubt the EU or Amnesty Int’l would show opposition to the executions… Meanwhile Al Qaeda probably couldn’t wait for them to die for their next recruitment drives… But Damn it just kill the trio already. All appeal methods exhausted, unwilling to seek Presidential Pardon… Just die soon and meet your virgins.

    As this murder case drags on it becomes more and more a cause celebre. Just think of how the lawyers for the condemned are pushing the agenda of how they should be executed, how many bullets they must be shot with etc…

    But I guess the Gov’t just have to watch out for backlash strikes. Especially with Mas selamat on the loose.

  15. Enigmatic says:

    As for my stand on the death penalty, I think life sentence is just good enough. Just lock em up and throw away the key for maximum effect. Or, measure out the number of years the convicts would be jailed by, say if he carries out a terror attack which kills 200, jail him for 2000 years if murder carries a 10 year jail term.

    Applies to corruption too. If someone siphons say 1 billion Rp, just jail him/her for 1000000 years or something… 1 year for every 1000 Rp or PART THEREOF.

    Definitely weeds out crime.

  16. Purba Negoro says:

    Enigmatic and other pro-life sentence advocates

    just who foots the bill?
    and why should we Indonesians have to pay for the appeasement of the effeminate Westerners who wet themselves at the drop of blood?
    From what I understand- everyday Westerners want their scum hanged as much as we do and find the angst-ridden self-appointed moral arbiters bourgeoisie vilely offensive in howling for equal (read: superior)rights for a-holes.

    Westerners- if you want life sentences- put your money where your mouth is- you pay for it.

    Otherwise shut up, spare us your facile trite moral onanisms and fix your own rotten degrading societies before your critique others’.

  17. Ross says:

    Enigmatic, I only wish you were correct to think that the E.U. would not stoop to plead for Amrozi and his co-swine.
    As mentioned above, they saw nothing amiss about trying to coerce Texans into sparing the life of a murderous rat, and Amnesty regards itself as a kind of world-wide deus ex machina, ever keen to swoop on ‘unenlightened’ governments that don’t offer soft options to terrorists and other ghastlies.
    Originally, they were set up to support ‘prisoners of conscence’ but they soon veered far from that unexceptionable aim- here’s a clip from their own website after Indonesia’s highest court ruled the death penalty was constitutional-

    ‘It is feared that this decision will now impact negatively on the fate of over 90 prisoners currently under sentence of death in particular the three Bali bombers (Amrozi Bin H Nurhasyim, Ali Ghufron, Iman Samudera) who have exhausted all their legal avenues of appeal and have refused to request Presidential clemency. All three are at imminent risk of execution. Amnesty International is appealing for the death sentences of the three Bali bombers and all others who are under sentence of death in Indonesia to be commuted.’

    So out of their own mouths, Amnesty stands convicted! Eager to save the skin scum-bags skins!

    The E.U. has also taken to prattling self-righteously to other countries, and during the debate over the execution of the three Christians here last year, (see The Age June 10, 2007) ‘An EU spokesman said the statements and personal approaches were aimed at encouraging Indonesia to abandon the application of the death penalty in ALL cases.’ (Ross capitals)
    So Brussels was NOT interested in the individual merits of any case, but simply wants to get all killers off the hook, including the Bali Pigs.

  18. AchmadSudarsono says:

    Ross,

    It’s not really that people disagree with the arguments you think you’re trying to make.

    It’s more a question of your poor command of logic. The lack of homework and pompous tone doesn’t help either.

    No-one’s trying to “let scumbags off the hook.” The debate, which you don’t seem to understand, is whether or not the death penalty is:

    – An effective deterrent measure
    – Just

    Another complication, not raised by Amnesty, is the question of legitimacy. The state here has to go well beyond the call of duty to be impartial and driven by law, rather than bloodlust (like you), or vengeance.

    Part of Amnesty’s mandate is to oppose the death sentence. I see you haven’t bothered to explore the other side of the argument. As usual.

  19. Enigmatic says:

    Purba Negoro Says:

    August 5th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
    Enigmatic and other pro-life sentence advocates

    just who foots the bill?
    and why should we Indonesians have to pay for the appeasement of the effeminate Westerners who wet themselves at the drop of blood?
    From what I understand- everyday Westerners want their scum hanged as much as we do and find the angst-ridden self-appointed moral arbiters bourgeoisie vilely offensive in howling for equal (read: superior)rights for a-holes.

    Westerners- if you want life sentences- put your money where your mouth is- you pay for it.

    Otherwise shut up, spare us your facile trite moral onanisms and fix your own rotten degrading societies before your critique others’.

    1) perhaps you’ve mistaken me for a Western educated ‘oh-life-is-so-precious-hence-the-death-penalty-must-be-repealed’ kind of guy. I’m not. I’m an Indonesian like you (you are right?), just that I’m studying in Singapore. That’s it.

    2) I live in a society where the death penalty is applied to drug-related crimes, murder and other serious crimes. While I’m not sure whether the death sentence itself deters smuggling, I’m quite sure that the police force (save for the chain of screw ups in recent months) has been efficient in meting out justice.

    3) Hence the reason why I feel the life sentence is good enough. Of course I was assuming that the police force was efficient (sadly not the case in Indonesia) because it keeps the criminals away from the society. At the same time it shuts up anti death penalty groups like AI.

    4) Definitely there are financial concerns of who foots the bill of housing inmates. But hey given the face that prison officers get bribes like nobody’s business I think the answer to who foots the bill is pretty obvious. Just look at the treatment Schapelle Corby receives in prison. Disgusting.

    Purba Negoro I hope to hear from you soon. Thanks.

  20. Purba Negoro says:

    IF Amnesia International, National Enforcement of Democracy, Human Rights Warp, “Terrorists are Just Extreme Friends You Haven’t Met”, “Hug a Drug-Lord” et al personae horribilis want to fund life sentences- let them.

    We remind hem that every criminal they fund is money diverted from the education, health and nutrition of hungry, law abiding Indonesians.

    Thus, they are by conscience, dogma and actions- bigots.

    Speaking of efficient police- how are you feeling in Singapore having “let down your vigilance” re Mas Selamat magically hypnotising the ultra vigilant, mega-efficient not to mention incredibly masculine Singapore police then levitating his way out of prison?

  21. Enigmatic says:

    Purba Negoro Says:

    August 7th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
    IF Amnesia International, National Enforcement of Democracy, Human Rights Warp, “Terrorists are Just Extreme Friends You Haven’t Met”, “Hug a Drug-Lord” et al personae horribilis want to fund life sentences- let them.

    We remind hem that every criminal they fund is money diverted from the education, health and nutrition of hungry, law abiding Indonesians.

    Thus, they are by conscience, dogma and actions- bigots.

    Speaking of efficient police- how are you feeling in Singapore having “let down your vigilance” re Mas Selamat magically hypnotising the ultra vigilant, mega-efficient not to mention incredibly masculine Singapore police then levitating his way out of prison?

    Trust me Pubro, beneath the support the Singaporeans seem to be gicing the PAP govt, (dunno if you know) there’s tons of dissatisfaction with the administration. Mas Selamat case makes it worse given the fact that the Ministry of Interior is actually a PAP man and actually had the cheek to not resign. After all, as they say in Parliament, it’s just “an honest mistake”.

    But then again conspiracy theories abound. Some actually think Mas Selamat died under Singapore Police Force detention and the escape was a cover up for his death. We don’t know. But it’s a bad mark on the reputation of the Singapore Govt.

    But aside from the screw up the police force has been pretty effiecient maybe only in arresting criminals not related to umm certain people.

    You may wanna view these sites to have the idea of how Singapore ACTUALLY is to its people. Note: Sarcasm abound.

    http://singaporemind.blogspot.com/
    http://singaporedissident.blogspot.com/

  22. Purba Negoro says:

    Oh- I know all about it. Singa-bore was one of my early career posts.

    I have very good friends there. I like Singaporeans- very polite- and very appreciative of Indonesians- despite simultaneously being (via indoctrination) incredibly paranoid of we savage Godless brown-skins invading, eating their children and raping their puppy dogs.

    So His Most Excellent Knight of the Scarlet Garter with French Frilly Lace, Raj and Viceroy Grand Vizier Lee Kwan Yew is now Minister of Mentoring.

    Lt Lord Lieutenant Phillip the Incredibly Quick-Witted and Highly Skilled rules as Raj, I mean Prime Minister?

    Very democratic. But- as it’s a UK colonial puppet- we won’t mention that.
    Or the US nuclear submarine base they are currently negotiating to build.
    No, not a puppet at all.

  23. dewaratugedeanom says:

    On a world scale maybe hundreds of innocent people get killed every day in crime or terror and all they get is a mention in the evening news. However when the perpetrators become ‘cause célèbre’, as Enigmatic said, then suddenly all kinds of advocates stand up and start debating whether they should be dealt with permanently or not. As to the victims, they are simply forgotten because they have no longer media value.
    To keep views in perspective and our memory alive is it necessary that every time Amrozi et al. appear in the media to publish also pictures or testimonies of victims or relatives of the deceased and mutilated in order to avoid that debate turns into purely intellectual navel-gazing and, worse, becoms a platform for activists with a different agenda?

    My question remains: in the case of the worst atrocities how can we do appropriate justice to the victims in the first place and to society in general if not by retaliating and take away from them what they contemptuously and without remorse took from their victims? Gratuitous statements and slogans like “an eye for an eye will make the world go blind” may sound nice but what proper repair can be made for the bereavement of not one but of hundreds of eyes?

  24. Shloka says:

    Very well said Dewa.

  25. kinch says:

    Short and to the point, Shloka.

    Rare, but to be commended.

  26. kinch says:

    I think it’s reasonable to assume that Mas Selamat has been extra-judicially removed from the gene pool and is not at large impersonating a Khatoey in Orchard Towers.

  27. Purba Negoro says:

    I’m sure the sentence was delivered pro bono courtesy of our diplomatic protection staff in Embassy in Singapore.

    Such scum as these have lost all human rights by opting out social contracts and conventions governing acceptable behaviour.
    By impinging others’ rights- including the right to breathe, the have defaulted their own.

    The Western hug-a-scumbag Rights argument is easily defeated.

  28. kinch says:

    fully in agreement with u as regards this particular matter… saves me having to take matters into my own hands and slay these malefactors with my patent bacon bits blunderbuss.

  29. Purba Negoro says:

    mmmm bacon-bits blunder-sub…

  30. David says:

    Mas Selamat Kastari got caught in Malaysia, April 1, apparently.

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