14 Comments on “Theological Controversy”
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AchmadSudarsono Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 2:36 pmGotta say, Patoeng, this is great sh*t. Where do you find it ?? But perhaps could you elaborate a little on the 16th century theological dispute ?? Seems to be only in the bottom para. If you do, I promise to tone done the race-baiting and sh*t-stirring.
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Patung Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 5:53 pmAchmad, not sure I’d take too much notice of the titles I give to things, I’m trying to avoid using the same titles over and over…anyway, it’s not the last para it’s the last section, the theological disputes, I guess the article assumes people are familiar with the 16th century protestant Reformation, so…. I’d imagine they are arguing about things like whether good works are of any value (catholic view) or whether you are saved sola fide (by faith alone) (protestant view), but Lambertus says that the Protestants quote the 95 Theses of Luther against him (and the Catholic church), so that is mainly criticism of indulgences, existence of purgatory, papal pardons and authority, things like that.
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Achmad Sudarsono Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 6:29 pmBut Patoeng,
Did u pick this up in the regional press, the naional press, like Kompas — or would that be telling ? Well spotted, anyway. It’s fascinating, as you say, that a 16th century debate is playing itself out 500 years later on an island half way between Asia and Polynesia…
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sputjam Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 6:41 pmIf you belong to a particular group, such as nationalist, racialist, religionist, idoelogist, you are considered as idol worshippers, and just causes, rightoeusness etc overides the interest of the group you belong.
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Kris Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 6:56 pmDoes anyone have exact demographic numbers for NTT? Wikipedia only says “91% Christian (majority Catholic, large Protestant population)”. Thanks
@Achmad: That theological dispute led to a all-out European war fought out in Germany, over the course of which 1/3 of Germany’s population lost their lives… (Granted it started out as a religious dispute and quickly took on strong political colours).
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Purba Negoro Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 9:03 pmSome background info some readers may not be aware of:
Catholics are fondly well remembered in Indonesia for their massive charitable work amongst the poor- Muslim included. Many Javanese are Catholics.
Catholic Churches are routinely zealously guarded and repaired by Muslims from nearby mosques- one brave Muslim man killed while guarding the Cathedral opposite Istiqlal Mosque in Jakarta, when some anus-hole bombed it. Those responsible were never “found”, and considered “missing” (hint, hint).Protestants are generally aligned (obviously not always- many Batak heroes) with the Dutch placing them in a blurred category of Colonial collaborators and sympathizers and “sell-outs” mimicking their white masters.
This is obviously a crude generalisation- but still common in public debate.
Ambonese, Flores-ese, Maluku and Sumaterans especially the Batak are famous for being Protestants (and many National Heroes) but moreover being fantastic vocalists. -
berlian biru Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 9:41 pmFenians and Prods having a go at each other eh? Now why does that seem so familiar?
Given that the Blue-noses of Nusa Tenggara Timur owe their allegiance to their former Dutch masters do they revere good King Billy? Have they considered setting up an Orange Lodge? The Rising Sons of Wanukaka perhaps, or maybe the Kupang Loyal Defenders. “Hello, Hello we are the Billy Boys!”
You really couldn’t make it up.
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August 25th, 2008 at 10:57 pmDid u pick this up in the regional press, the naional press, like Kompas — or would that be telling ?
Just click the footnote link! Achmad, btw, you have an awful lot of email addresses, that is what causes the hold up in your comments sometimes, I’d use the achmadtellsit one, esp. if you want that nice photo of you to show up.
Does anyone have exact demographic numbers for NTT? Wikipedia only says “91% Christian (majority Catholic, large Protestant population)”. Thanks
These are the official stats from Dept. of Religion - Nusa Tenggara Timur, Islam 384.945, Kristen 1.369.302, Katolik 2.185.195.
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August 26th, 2008 at 12:31 amBerlian
welcome to Indonesia- land of 230 million lunatics. Enjoy your stay in the asylum! -
August 26th, 2008 at 8:54 am@Patung: Thanks I appreciate it! (now do you also happen to know statistics by kabupaten, to check out the regional imbalances discussed in the text?)
@Purba Negoro: I think you are mistaken. Florenese are famous for being Catholics. I don’t know the exact numbers (hence my request above) but it is quite clear they are mostly Catholic.
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August 27th, 2008 at 1:20 amMaybe- if so- I apologize- Nuwen Sewu- and stand corrected
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Neil of Newcastle Says:
August 27th, 2008 at 6:19 amBB, I trust that the indigenous disputants rise above toasting the little gentleman in the black velvet coat, or melodically enquiring if Bobby Sands wants some chicken soup…. The most interesting Christian division in Indonesia has to be Irian where the Dutch divided the place to mirror the Great Divide in The Netherlands - RCs to the south and Prods to the north
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ultratupai Says:
August 27th, 2008 at 6:23 amI guess there is the bloody Dutch to thank for this (in part). It is interesting how religion can co-opt tribalism (both Christianity and Islam) and how the post-colonial can co-opt the colonial.
I wish I were President of Indonesia.
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Lairedion Says:
August 30th, 2008 at 8:33 pmThrough my father’s line age I’m Manadonese which automatically would mean I’m Protestant but my father wad raised Catholic by his Javanese mother and I followed suit. But now I’m happy to tell I’ve set my mind free from old-fashioned dogma’s of the Middle Eastern origins.
Perhaps Celtic and Rangers can have a go here with their Old Firm rivalry.
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