Can Love Transcend Cultural Barriers?

Feb 22nd, 2012, in Girls, IM Posts, by

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89 Comments on “Can Love Transcend Cultural Barriers?”

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  1. avatar bluemoejoe says:
    March 15th, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    hallo apollo23…. happened to be round the web then stumbled upon your thread i couldn’t wait to comment on your situation. ..but before that.

    let me ask something first…. what’s her first name. ….is she using Andi or Daeng or Karaeng before the surname. if it’s not…then it is easier to work something out of it…

    i’m writing this on cell…. hop
    ely by the time i reach home i could see your reply

  2. avatar apollo23 says:
    March 15th, 2012 at 7:45 pm

    Hello: bluemoejoe. Neither her surname, or name include those names you mentioned there before. Why are those names relevant?

  3. avatar bluemoejoe says:
    March 15th, 2012 at 9:10 pm

    @ apollo23

    that’s a nobillity lineage names…prominent one…there are other but the rest was not stands out much
    OK… firstly, let roll on dowry first…. well, there are three prominent tribes/clans in south sulawesi which’s bugis, buton and makassar ( BBM ) although is not writen but they do set the benchmark for the rest of island aside from the manado’s off course. …especially bugis clans they are the proudest ( in good sense ) of all…. so if she’s a bugis…. well you’re on the highest you could attain.. normaly bugis were rational people…but,since you an expat .standards do go higher but, do not worry. dowry is always negotiable… most of the parents will always concerning on housing first…so you do has a house be on mortgage…or loan. ..you do could get by a dowry of ” praying kit and matresess “…. it’s all just a psychologicall issues.

    and now for the biggest of all…. conversion

    damn i hate talking about this… well bro, conversion is ain’t no small issue in islamic community regardless the clans n tribes nor nationality.. we are all moslem before allah. so please take a good deep tought before you do. there are no forcing in islam but there are codes and laws he have to obey if we embrace it….. n i do agree with her if you want to convert then convert on your owsn terms not on just a simply a materialistic wordly lust ( sorry ).
    but then again… worlds and will weren’t always on god terms right? ? sometimes all we could do is wish…. allow me to say this bro…. if you are still on doubts better leave on now… don’t even think about take her along ’cause if you do… not just it is a crime… you just make her banished and shone by her own society… do you really could ever picture that happen on her?? not to mention “siri” will be brought upon you two .
    what i could offer to you now is…. a suggestion : why don’t you two stop seeing each other for now ( relax … i do believe in power of love ) chill’s out.. give yourself some rooms for thought… if it allah wished it…hell, you could married for free as muallaf

  4. avatar agan says:
    March 16th, 2012 at 3:19 am

    My dear Apollo,

    Fear not! if we are equal in front of God then you need not to worry with all those nobility snobility man-made titles and btw the correct terminology is not to “convert” but to “revert” because everybody was born Muslim (Submitter to God) and so to revert is simply just taking the Shahada testimony over (and who hasn’t ?)

    You see, the more you read the more confuse you will become and finally to quote Pak Shakespeare, “It is better to have loved and lost ….than to stay at a warnet every night and read Dating Indo Girls over and over again.” cape deh.

    So bada bing bada boom let nature takes its course.

    Good luck euy

    This message is approved by Aphrodite (aka Venus)

  5. avatar ET says:
    March 16th, 2012 at 7:15 am

    @ apollo23

    re. conversion

    It’s a power play. They put down the terms and you have to oblige or you don’t get their daughter. If you give in you’ll be bound for the rest of your married life and you will have to live by their rules.
    My advice: if for you and your future bride conversion is just a formality then get it over with and done but go live elsewhere and leave this narrow-minded society behind. According to Islam there’s no compulsion in religion but you still have to ‘submit’ to their whims.

  6. avatar deta says:
    March 16th, 2012 at 9:41 am

    It’s a power play. They put down the terms and you have to oblige or you don’t get their daughter. If you give in you’ll be bound for the rest of your married life and you will have to live by their rules.

    No need to be so cynical, ET. Some parents require religion conversion only for the sake of the legality of their daughter’s marriage. Still suffer from convertophobia? :)

    Anyway, there are some good advices from bluemoejoe. Take it easy, especially if you believe that mencintai tak harus memiliki (to love is not always to have).

    Agan, your message is approved by Aphro-deta.

  7. avatar ET says:
    March 16th, 2012 at 9:59 am

    No need to be so cynical, ET. Some parents require religion conversion only for the sake of the legality of their daughter’s marriage. Still suffer from convertophobia?

    Do you think the daughter’s parents would agree if their daughter converted to another religion, let’s say the religion of her future husband, deta? It would still be perfectly legal though.

  8. avatar deta says:
    March 16th, 2012 at 10:22 am

    Do you think the daughter’s parents would agree if their daughter converted to another religion, let’s say the religion of her future husband, deta?

    Maybe they wouldn’t, just as the future husband’s parents wouldn’t let their son to convert either (if he had already embraced a religion).

    Maybe my statement is not perfectly correct. But to extend that the man will be bound for the rest of his married life is equally incorrect. Even in a very traditional family, once a couple get married, the parents will have a little authority to control the marriage life, let alone to control what their son-in-law believes.

  9. avatar berlian biru says:
    March 16th, 2012 at 11:17 am

    Conversion’s no big deal, it’s perfectly normal when two people of differing religions wish to marry then the partner who isn’t that bothered agrees to sign up with the other’s mob.

    My Irish aunties when they snared their US servicemen husbands back in the 1940′s (there is nothing new under the sun, all the cliches and stereotypes being written above about bule/indon partnerships were all said about GI brides back then) made sure they all became good little Catholic boys before they married.

    With the exception of the losing of a not particularly useful piece of the male anatomy (and boy that hurts when you’re 35 years old) converting to Islam’s a doddle. If you don’t want to go through with the surgery by the way, don’t worry, they take your word for it, you don’t have to whip it out in the mosque for the imam to have a shuftie.

  10. avatar ET says:
    March 16th, 2012 at 11:46 am

    If you don’t want to go through with the surgery by the way, don’t worry, they take your word for it, you don’t have to whip it out in the mosque for the imam to have a shuftie.

    What a relief! :-)

    Anyways, I think it’s about time this silly meddling into one’s private affairs comes to an end. And if for the families it is important to hold on to their traditions, why not have two ceremonies, each according to its own religion. In the West something similar already takes place, with a civil ‘ceremony’ on one hand followed by a religious one some time later.

  11. avatar Oigal says:
    March 16th, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    but to “revert” because everybody was born Muslim (Submitter to God) and so to revert is simply just taking the Shahada testimony over (and who hasn’t) ?)

    I always love this bit..Mmmm I dunno about a billion chinese and 1/2 billion Indians for a start. Bit like the Catholics saying you were all born a Catholic.

    Conversion’s no big deal, it’s perfectly normal when two people of differing religions wish to marry then the partner who isn’t that bothered agrees to sign up with the other’s mob.

    I am with BB here conversion is doddle unless you are a true believer and really think the bloke or blokette who designs whole universes gives a toss if you pray palm up or clasped together or for that matter even notices you.

    In an earlier life and career, I found differing religions got differing holidays and allowances. As an astute young scallywag, I soon learned that a quick study of the calender and allowances would set the times for a sudden advantageous religious awaking. Effectively Catholic (Loony Grandma, you made Jesus cry. Which even as a kid had me puzzled, here was a bloke who had nails through his feet and my being late home from school made him cry??) quick foray as Lutheran (best footy side at the time) neatly dovetailing into a couple of years as a CoE (Good…ahem…mixed picnics).

    Then studying BA Asian studies got me into the Islam thing, which was amusing when our teacher came out with the environmental classic. “we don’t have to worry about Shark Finning and Whales because if Allah wants more in the sea he will put more in the sea”. Never the less, I got my card for the lot of them :-). When the time comes, it will just be a matter of pulling the card of whoever was right, I am sure he/she will understand not like the Big All Powerful One has not undergone a few theological revisions over the years.

  12. avatar ET says:
    March 16th, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    Conversion’s no big deal, it’s perfectly normal when two people of differing religions wish to marry then the partner who isn’t that bothered agrees to sign up with the other’s mob.

    That may be OK if you look at it from a personal point of view. But in discussions about this topic the argument always comes forward that the conversion is only to “please the future in-laws”. Then the question arises why only one party has to be pleased while the other is put outside. Imagine the following scenario.
    Me, a promising young Italian expat bloke with a bright future but from a Toscanian rural family with La Mama in command and a crucifix in every room falls in love with an elegant, educated and beautiful Indonesian girl from a devout family of Allah submitters and haji’s, diligently respecting every call to prayer. Simsalabimbumbang and keturunan is on its way, only to give love an even wider dimension. It is decided that both of us are meant for each other and that we will join our lives and possessions in holy matrimony. But now, being in Indonesia, the question pops up who will have to convert. For the girl’s parents the question is purely rhetorical. Murtad is a mortal sin punishable by death according to sharia law.
    But wait a minute. This is completely overlooking a terrible force in nature, the possible wrath of La Mama. First of all she will never give her fiat to the wedding of the apple of her eye without having scrutinized in close-up the exotic witch who will take possession of the fruit of her loins. Secondly it is her god-given duty to lead her son on her arm to the altar where his fate will be sealed. Dramas worth of any Puccini opera are on the horizon if the rights and role of motherhood are swept aside and trampled. Even dispossession of future inheritance is not to be excluded.
    Now tell us, based on solid arguments, whose rights here take precedence over the other. Can you expect La Mama, whose only trip out of Toscany has been to the Vatican to receive the Pope’s ‘Urbi et Orbi’ blessing on Easter day, to fly half around the world to a hot and humid place, be it full of smiling friendly people, to be a spectator at her own son’s wedding and listen to him utter the tongtwister called shahada, forsaking the belief of his ancesters and herself?

  13. avatar bluemoejoe says:
    March 16th, 2012 at 9:51 pm

    there’s a saying in indonesia …. ” dimana langit di junjung di situ bumi di pijak ” … go googling the mean’s it self

    but i do agree … let’s the man do decide on him self . everthing’s has it’s price …. even simply doing nothing pays amount the same .

  14. avatar ET says:
    March 17th, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    there’s a saying in indonesia …. ” dimana langit di junjung di situ bumi di pijak ” …

    Is there also an Arab translation for this saying?

  15. avatar berlian biru says:
    March 17th, 2012 at 2:48 pm

    ET, Irish Catholic mother on my part so I know where you’re coming from. However as I was in my mid-thirties when I finally got around to nuptials me dear oul’ ma, may God rest her, was cool with whatever I decided.

    Any lingering qualms about my betrothed’s religious leanings were settled by my older brother helpfully whispering in her ear; “I’m just relieved that she’s a girl”, that little diamond sealed the deal and no mistake.

  16. avatar bluemoejoe says:
    March 17th, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    @ ET : of course there are …. but, since the base topic is on indonesian tradition which in turn base from islamic laws ( as a majority ) …. your further logic couldn’t apply :o

  17. avatar ET says:
    March 17th, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Indeed bluemoejoe, even longstanding traditions will change when money – lots of it – is involved.

  18. avatar bluemoejoe says:
    March 17th, 2012 at 4:28 pm

    Indeed bluemoejoe, even longstanding traditions will change when money – lots of it – is involved.

    HOLD OUT right there ….. what do you mean ….???

  19. avatar ET says:
    March 17th, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    @ bluemoejoe – I think you know exactly what I mean after I asked if the indonesian saying “dimana langit di junjung di situ bumi di pijak” had also an Arab translation.

  20. avatar bluemoejoe says:
    March 17th, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    well enlight me !! since you throw the “money” words out of the blue ….i’m a bit touchy in here

    sure money ease things up but not everythings could be bought up ..

  21. avatar ET says:
    March 17th, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    well enlight me

    If you want to be enlightened try google

    – What happened to the smiling face of Indonesian Islam? Muslim intellectualism and the conservative turn in post-Suharto Indonesia

    – Martin Van Bruinessen: Arabisering van de Indonesische islam? (Arabisation of Indonesian Islam) (only available in Dutch)

    - Pesantren & Kitab Kuning

    Warning: all articles are scholarly stuff.

  22. avatar bluemoejoe says:
    March 17th, 2012 at 8:10 pm

    gee …what a small world i’m living this day …. just after i thought i lost all those BPLN retard over KASKUS … now i had to bump one on IM … :D

    - what happen ?? it’s all happen as it is … the only difference is it can no longer be suppress simply by justifying “powers” alone . and attitude like yours simply make it worst .in the ends majority will rules …. the only question is on how much the minority get sparred

    - OH yeah rite … who bozzo’s again ??? i don’t give a fuck about him . simply watching by the side without living the lifes suddenly makes an expert . observation don’t always bring the insight dudes . hell …. i could give a list of all MIZAN listed published . but i’m sure it won’t change the equations

    - DUDE …. don’t you know where you going ??

    serioussly…. dude you derailled the thread and now asking me on VS debates . will you get a life ?? rather than masturbating those hatred over the net ..obviously you’re need one though . the rule of life is simple … you want to embrace something you do have to adapt and adjust . if you don’t like … then leave . no one will forcing you to it .

    well … HATERS gonna hates anyway … i’m done talking to you

  23. avatar Oigal says:
    March 17th, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    Well ET fair to say, game, set n match to you then ;-). Touchy little devils

  24. avatar apollo23 says:
    March 17th, 2012 at 9:20 pm

    I really appreciate all your comments. Regarding my family, I don´t think they will have any objections in me converting to any religion. When I was born my parents agreed on allowing me to decide my religion, if any at all, once I would become an adult. Myself I´m quite open minded, through the years I have seen a lot of wisdom in religious scriptures, but at the same time I happened to disagree with many other things written in those books; as I consider they reflect the time during which they were written. However I respect people that see faith being well above reasoning. I do believe in the existence of an entity connecting all existing things, called by many God, and being that the most important aspect of monotheist religions, I do not feel that I´m doing any wrong by adhering to any religion I want; but of course that is just my view and I´m sure many of you would disagree. Anyways, I would rather no go any deep into theological debates, as that would requite another article.

    There is no way I´m backing off. I can´t help the feeling of loving her, even if many would consider this feeling mundane. I would never force her, to give up her family, or her lifestyle. She is a human being and many would agree that we have free will. Roughly speaking, life is but a continues chain of choices we make every second. I thank you for you advices, I see that your views are often divided, however I beg you please not to attack each other personally because of that. There is no need for all of you to reach a consensus; but I believe that is a need to respect each other as persons. Thank you all again.

  25. avatar pattimahal says:
    March 18th, 2012 at 7:45 am

    Yes, it can.

    That said, it certainly helped that my Indonesian wife (together since ’96, we have one child) is Christian, spoke english, is middle class and university educated. I also feel the need to point out that she isn’t of chinese heritage on this forum.

    If she was just a pretty kampung lass in a sarong who spoke little or no english and who served me in a warung when we met with a family that expected me to convert to islam, things might not have worked out so well!

    These days, the only thing that really still causes hassles, and always has, is remittances to her family. How much, what for etc.

  26. avatar ET says:
    March 18th, 2012 at 8:57 am

    Oigal,

    Well ET fair to say, game, set n match to you then ;-) . Touchy little devils

    Well, the little devil asked to be enlightened and when I did he/she wrote

    well … HATERS gonna hates anyway … i’m done talking to you

    What a relief :-)

  27. avatar berlian biru says:
    March 18th, 2012 at 9:51 am

    These days, the only thing that really still causes hassles, and always has, is remittances to her family. How much, what for etc.

    Perhaps that’s because of your wife’s middle class background and her need to preserve her family’s status through your funds.

    I leave all that stuff to my missus because as a kampung lass herself she’s self-educated and runs her own business with all the canniness of someone who appreciates the value of every penny. My wife doesn’t even bring such requests to my attention as she dismisses 98% of them out of hand immediately.

    She’s always in the bad books with some member of the extended clan because despite having a bule husband she’s pelit buanget. If my better half is handing over cash it’s for some deserving case, late term terminal TB treatment or some such and even then she’d wonder what’s the point of supporting the unfortunate case if they’re going to expire anyway.

  28. avatar ET says:
    March 18th, 2012 at 10:11 am

    BB, does your wife have a sister who’s not yet married?

  29. avatar berlian biru says:
    March 18th, 2012 at 11:37 am

    No, all married and divorced several times, deadbeats most of ‘em with the exception of her younger brother who helps run the business and is all round gopher for my missus. It’s quite remarkable to see how two siblings can be so sharp and go ahead while the rest of the family is so lethargic and fatalistic.

    She’s got a couple of cute nieces however, no idea how keen their business brains are but they’re kinda cute, hmm, maybe I should stop talking at this point.

  30. avatar ET says:
    March 18th, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    in the ends majority will rules …. the only question is on how much the minority get sparred

    Quite typical and something to keep in mind.

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