Religion & Religiosity
Jun 16th, 2008, in Opinion, by Guest Writer
Rima says religion and religiosity are to blame for much of Indonesia’s, and the world’s, troubles.
Why religion doesn’t matter at all
Once upon a time, Indonesia was well-known in the world as a nation of peace, tolerance and religious pluralism. Other countries even made us their example, a country full of people with various religious beliefs, from various ethnic and language background, people who live side by side in harmony.
Indonesia was and even more now, a very religious country, where the people live and breathe religion. It doesn’t matter what religion a person is, as long as it’s one of the six official religions. While it is unheard of in developed countries, in Indonesia identity cards bear not only name, address and sex, but also religion. Thus, religion is a must in the country of 240+ million people.
I still remember as a little girl, my Christian neighbors would come to our house in Eidl Fitr to celebrate our Ramadan victory with us, and vice versa, we would come to their houses to celebrate Christmas with them. Back then, we were not suspicious with one another, we were all like one big happy family, with real problems, none of which originated from religion. Those were good times.
I also remember being taught that religious people, specifically Muslims, go to heaven (if they’re good) and others do not. As kids, our schools taught us communism equals atheism and therefore very, very bad. This is deeply embedded in our minds which is why many Indonesians feel somewhat afraid or even disgusted towards communists and atheists.
As a little Muslim girl, at home and in Madrasah, I was taught that Jews were our enemy, never mind the fact that the Koran says otherwise. Christians weren’t mentioned, as it was politically incorrect to address them as our enemies back then. Besides, the President was close with the Christian community as well as the Muslims, making it a point that we were brothers and sisters who must fight the latent danger of communism and atheism.
Back then, I thought religious people like my dad, with his Peci, white shirt and sarong, reading the Holy Koran and doing the daily 5 obligatory prayers, Friday prayers plus the sunnahs like Dhuha and Tahajud; Or neighbors that go to church every Sunday and have bible studies once or twice a week, were perfect. Maybe they were, then. Living without a religion was something unthinkable, and most certainly a life that would doom a person to hell.
Fast forward several decades, things have changed. Not for the better, but for the worse. Now, the country is becoming more religious than ever, but tolerance is slowly becoming a thing of the past. Suspicion of Christian evangelism, for example, is rampant everywhere in the country with ridiculous accusations of lures of instant noodle to make one convert. Not only that, even sects within Islam are now attacked, despite sharing the same God and the same Holy Book.
Many of us are not obeying the law but instead take matters into our own hands. We are bypassing God as the only rightful entity to judge and condone or condemn anyone. Attacks and burning down of churches, places of worship and even mosques of different Islamic faith from Indonesia’s mainstream Islamic brand make many feel threatened to continue living in this tropical paradise. The government is weak and caves in to terrorist demands. A real shame that would make our founding fathers turn in their graves.
However, as we are growing more religious, good morals seems to have declined. There is no more shame in bribery, in prostituting the country by selling its resources to the so-called ‘infidels’ for big money while the country is short of the resources sold; there is no more shame in adultery, in human rights violations, in cheating the poor; there is no more shame in flaunting riches in front those who don’t have enough money to buy a decent meal, in attacking people for having different beliefs, in condoning immoral and violent acts; there is no more shame in oppressing ethnic and religious minority, in stealing funds intended to help those struck with earthquake/tsunami; there is no more shame in not being polite, in offending our brothers and sisters of different beliefs, of displaying behavior and attitude suitable for the middle ages, and; there is no more shame in abandoning victims of a disaster as a result of one’s greedy attempt to rich themselves, in any immoral acts in the interest of one’s self or group, being a bigot, racist and being discriminative.
We are instead fixated in pornography, women’s dress codes, dangdut singers’ dance and internet as if those are the only things in the world that could and would corrupt the moral of our future generation. We aren’t even ashamed of the fact that we are in the top 10 of most corrupt countries in the world, as if money is our new God, yet we are, without a doubt, one of the most religious nations in the world.
As I see all those above and more so-called religious people fighting with one another. Where one feels more self-righteous than the other and worse, hurting and killing people in the name of God, a God – if It exists at all – who would most likely shed a tear in sadness and frustration at all this, my opinion and feeling towards religions have changed 180 degrees.
I now strongly believe that religions are the culprit of all hurt and heartaches the people of this world has endured in the past, present and future. I believe it’s nothing but poison to the human mind. It limits our thinking, promotes hatred and violence and it tries to control us with threats of hell and lure us into doing evil things with promises of heaven. The day I know what religion God believes in, is the day I will once again believe in a religion. But until then, all the points above are the reasons why I think religion doesn’t matter at all.
302 Comments on “Religion & Religiosity”
-
Odinius says:
shloka said:
This is another World War ii example.
During World War II a number of Croatian Catholic priests, not only cooperated with the regime but were implicated in murders and forced religious conversions of Serbs and Jews. In a few cases the whole population of villages was killed because they were Serb Orthodox; conversely, there have been cases where villagers were superficially converted and remained alive. There were cases of local involvement in genocide, including Friar Majstorovi?. According to Dr. Miši?, the Bishop of Mostar, even newly-converted Serbs were rounded up and murdered:“ While the newly-converted are at Mass they seize them, old and young, men and women, and hunt them like slaves. From Mostar and Chapljina the railway carried six waggons full of mothers, girls, and children under eight to the station of Surmanci, where they were taken out of the waggons, brought into the hills and thrown alive, mothers and children, into deep ravines. In the parish of Klepca seven hundred schismatics from the neighbouring villages were slaughtered. The Sub-Prefect of Mostar, Mr Bajitch, a Moslem, publicly declared (as a state employee he should have held his tongue) that in Ljublina alone 700 schismatics have been thrown into one pit.(Mish*tch, cited in Butler, 1956).
See? Entire villages of Serb Orthodox killed by the Catholics, AND forced conversios with even the superficially converted killed by the ruthless Catholics.
Good example, and close to my heart as I used to live in Croatia! What happened to the Serbs 1941-5 was atrocious; what Serbs did to Croats and Muslims 1991-5 was also atrocious. Of course, none of these wars were about religion (religion is just a marker of ethnicity in these cases), but religious symbols and organizations played key roles.
And yes, all religious faiths have murders done in their names in their pasts. Even Buddhists. The Buddhist sangha in Sri Lanka has organized anti-Tamil and anti-Muslim riots, for example.
-
Patrick says:
@ L A I R E D I O N – you said “Good idea but try to stay focused in the next thread. In your anger and emotion you’re clearly having trouble doing so by mixing various threads and comments.”
Care to explain or your just angry about the fact that I misspelled your name?
-
Matt says:
I just found this pretty awsome article, The Last Patriot, that sheds some light on the first encounters america had with Jihadist back in the late 1700s. Its a really interesting article worth checking out.
-
barry prima says:
I now strongly believe that religions are the culprit of all hurt and heartaches the people of this world has endured in the past, present and future
I can’t believe you could make such sweeping and factually laughable comment.You are implying people in secular societies dont suffer from hurts and heartaches,from corruption ,prostituion etc?There was no suffering before or outside of religion?People in the west are happier than in Indonesia?
You know one of the first things a foreigner will tell you about Indonesia is that the most striking thing about the country is that people are always smiling and laughing,even in the midst of such economic hardship .In fact one of the reasons they can even tolerate such suffering is the religious concept of iklhas.You are scapegoating in the same way that religous factions scapegoat others,but the scapegoat you have made is religion itself,and easy target.
To me rima you are only making this comment, because you lack awareness of your own country, its history and politics and more precisely the nature of islam in Indonesia.Dependence and then rejection, that is the process of the half evolved
Islamic faith from Indonesia’s mainstream Islamic brandIslam in Indonesia has never had a mainstream brand,it was always a village level form of islam. Indonesia has never felt a need to assert a collective or universal Islamic identity until very recently.Its history and geographical location has always distanced it from the rest of the muslim world.
There is a lot of interreligious fighting of late because the nation is trying to figure out who it is and what its value are in the modern world Their is a struggle to reach some kind of consensus as to what kind of islam the nation can collectively assume. The local adat/islam kapmpung/kejawen style does not satisfy the demands of globalisation.Only when that battle has been fought and won,can Islam put up a meaningful resistance against the west and its values.
We live in extreme times. Do u expect Indonesians and the rest of the Muslim world to adopt the same values as the western world, a world that really has no transcendental values, only superficial ones?
People have to adopt extreme measure in extreme situations; otherwise the way of life they hold sacred will disappear. When you have more secularisation and more ungodliness, you will naturally have more religious fanaticism to counter it. Religions have to ASSERT THEMSELVES as if they don’t they will be dominated and made impotent. All ideologies will naturally struggle with each other in asserting themselves, you simply cannot allow the liberalism of the western world to continue uninterrupted and expect people to still maintain their religious integrity. One has to give, sometimes people have to choose which side of the fence their on.
Im not condoning fanaticism, but i understand its product of it opposite. Religious fanaticism occurs when people feel overwhelmed by non religious forces.
Your self righteousness is really annoying,the way you so casually dismiss a whole section of Society as hypocrites. It easy to point the finger or hypocrisy for people who don’t believe in anything. To me thats the way of the coward.
Anyone who has tried to live righteously will know hypocrisy, is hard to avoid. Part of the reason why people become fanatics is because of an acknowledgment of their own hypocrisy.The influences in the modern world create a Hugh conflict in the hearts of people who want to live a pure way of life. It is only natural that they should thus try and press for removal of those forces in society that compromise their attempts to live in a way they feel deep down is true.
A pornographic producer or pimp does not consider the impact his work will have on muslim society (except in a negative way)so he should not expect the muslim extremist o have any concern for him when fighting for his vision of the world.
No one is born free, everyone is born into society. No one lives in isolation either,and no one actions remain in themselves, they affect everyone else. Liberalism (do what thou wilt as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone)…(did you know that is a satanic concept that was developed by Alestair Crowley?) is the biggest lie ever told.Maybe the jihadis are like the mongols when they invaded Iraq and ripped apart the muslim world.The Mongols received their enemies by stating that `we have been sent by god to punish you for your sins’.
(by the way in reference to earlier post about Buddhism not having any religious wars. mongols were mostly Buddhist)It is rather ironic that the Muslim world has never shown bitterness towards the Mongols and in a twist of fate the Mongol conquerors themselves became Muslims.
Basically, Islamic fanaticism is no less than the world deserves.
However, as we are growing more religious, good morals seems to have declined. There is no more shame in bribery, in prostituting the country by selling its resources to the so-called ‘infidels’ for big money while the country is short of the resources sold;there is no more shame in adultery, in human rights violations, in cheating the poor; there is no more shame in flaunting riches in front those who don’t have enough money to buy a decent meal,
The whole paragraph shows that people are less religous, not more? You really are confused,The things that outrage you are the same as the ones that outrage the religionist
The whole moral outrage about dangdut/pornography is related to the concept of Rasa malu. You cannot have shame in one thing and not in another. You cannot make pornography ok and then expect people to have the same level of shame about adultery or have the same respect for their and other peoples bodies.(it is the temple of the soul)
The religious factions are only shown to be, and in many ways can only be, vocal about moral issues, not political ones such as corruption, bribery and business as once they do they will become political targets.
You seem to have little grasp of Indonesian politics, religon is a tool the ruling powers have always used to their own ends. Islam was heavily suppressed in the 70’s and 80’s and many Islamic groups and leaders were imprisoned.
The ruling elite want religion to be marginalised, that image of bearded fanatics who are intolerant is one that serves them well as it alienates them from the majority and pretty much guarantees they will never have any real power.
Alot of religious intolerance ,church burnings, riots in 1998 etc etc have been proven to be done by the er political groups to neutralise opponents ,and take attention away from the ruling parties. Anyone who knows Indonesian politics will know ,Islam has never had any power in Indonesia.You make it sound like it is the religious factions of the community are doing all these evils and that they are doing it with a religious authority and backing?
The people who are doing this are not doing it because they are christian,chinese or muslim theyre doing these things because they are lustful, greedy and spite of their beliefs. They would do such things and maybe even worse ones if they had no religion.
We aren’t even ashamed of the fact that we are in the top 10 of most corrupt countries in the world
Who is this we?Im sure most indonesians feel great shame in this, but fortunately unlike in your case it doesn’t lead to a shame about one’s own country, heritage and religion.
of displaying behavior and attitude suitable for the middle agesAnother Eurocentric comment. What middle ages are you talking about? The middle ages was a dark time in European history, but a golden one for muslims, especially Moorish Spain ,which was properly the most progressive culture in the world at the time.
Civilization in the modern western world is not the most humane and developed it has ever been, it has its own evils in the same way that other ages in history had. The difference however is that modern society as Frijthof Schuon said is only accidentally good and inherently bad, whereas traditional societies were inherently good and only accidently bad.
You said it yourself, lack of politeness and shame, these are products of an irreligious, spiritually bankrupt society,not a religious one! You really are talking in double speak?????
It limits our thinking, promotes hatred and violence and it tries to control us with threats of hell and lure us into doing evil things with promises of heaven.Yes it can, but it can also promote love,peace,tolerance it depends on you and what you do with it,how you apply yourself in the understanding and application of it
-
dewaratugedeanom says:
barry prima said
Maybe the jihadis are like the mongols when they invaded Iraq and ripped apart the muslim world.The Mongols received their enemies by stating that `we have been sent by god to punish you for your sins’.
(by the way in reference to earlier post about Buddhism not having any religious wars. mongols were mostly Buddhist)
It is rather ironic that the Muslim world has never shown bitterness towards the Mongols and in a twist of fate the Mongol conquerors themselves became Muslims.The Mongol invasions had nothing to do with religious wars. I suppose your information is once again twisted by your Muslim so-called scholars, masters in victimizing Islam and blaming the whole world for what Islam itself excelled in: to conquer and subdue. They probably forgot or omitted to teach you that the Mongol rulers, although fierce conquerors, proclaimed freedom of religion in the areas they invaded and that Mongol rule in Baghdad, after its fall in 1258, and in Mosul, the new provincial capital, generally took the form of a condominium consisting of a Muslim, Christian, or Jewish civilian administrator seconded by a Mongol garrison commander.
What they probably also didn’t tell you is that during the reign of Sultan Achmad Jalayir (1382–1410), Timur Lenk (Tamerlane), the Turkic conqueror from Central Asia, himself a Muslim and generally remembered for the barbarity of his conquests, took Baghdad and Tikrit in 1393. Although Sultan Achmad was able to reoccupy his capital briefly, Timur again besieged and sacked Baghdad in 1401 with 20000 of its citizens massacred, dealing it a blow from which it did not recover until modern times.
-
The Mongol invasions had nothing to do with religious wars.
I never suggested they did,religous affiliation is only incidental.Timur is as reflective of Islam as Kublai Khan was of Buddhism.
I dont know what you read into my comment,but you seem to have chosen it as an oppurtunity to show off your knowledge of the mongols,rather than relating it to any point i was ttrying to make.
I suppose your information is once again twisted by your Muslim so-called scholars.I have never refered to Muslim scholars in understanding the mongol Conquest,dont assume so much.
My observation is a historical one,relating to the patterns of change in history and how civilisations clash and balance each other out . I am not even speaking principally from a uniquely Islamic perspective here.. -
@ barry prima
I dont know what you read into my comment,but you seem to have chosen it as an oppurtunity to show off your knowledge of the mongols,rather than relating it to any point i was ttrying to make.
Come down from your high horse and read again what you wrote
Maybe the jihadis are like the mongols when they invaded Iraq and ripped apart the muslim world.The Mongols received their enemies by stating that `we have been sent by god to punish you for your sins’.
(by the way in reference to earlier post about Buddhism not having any religious wars. mongols were mostly Buddhist)I answered with historical facts to refute your assumptions that the mongols could be compared to jihadis. The assumption I made was that, based on the general tenet of your post, your information was coloured by the usual manipulation of history at the hands of Muslim so-called scholars,
-
Come down from your high horse
You write a whole paragraph to show your erudtion about a mater which is beside the point and then tell me to get of my high horse?
Well sorry if speak with a certain sense of confidence and intelligence and therby fail to subscribe to your assumption of automatic superiority .Assumptions,assumptions.Assumption informing every post you have made about islam:
All muslims must have coloured view of the facts,that they have blindly inherited from so called scholars.Your arrogance knows no bounds.
your information was coloured by the usual manipulation of history at the hands of Muslim so-called scholars,
WHEERE IS MY REFERENCE TO THESE SO CALLED MUSLIM SCHOLARS?
MY information if coloured is only by that of my western education and reading of material by western authors,and of course my cultural conditioning(both eastern and western) which i can acknowledge,unlike people of your ilk who somehow think of themselves as free thinkers.I answered with historical facts to refute your assumptions that the mongols could be compared to jihadis.<strong>
I credited anyone reading the statement to acknowloedge the comparison in the sphere where it is relevant,and disregard it when it didnt.I am not even speaking from an islamic point of view.I am only trying to show how historically civilisations interact and opress each other,so that theese societies are forced to redefine their values.the religous affiliation of the Mongols is not the subject of my comparison.The point of is the
agressive nature of the way in which societies come face to face with their own legacy.
To me ISlamic terrorism is only natures response to the agreesieve colonialism,both cultural and physical over the non western world for the last few centuries.The west has had its time in the sun,in a matter of time,somebody else will and it wont be pretty for the west. -
Shloka says:
barry prima,
If Islamic terrorism is “only the natural response” to Western imperialism, then:
1)Why don’t other nations colonised by the West behave in the same way?
The West colonised Jamaica, do we see Jamaican terrorists planting bombs in Western nations or in Jamaica so that unsuspecting tourists might be killed? The West colonised the entire Indian sub continent, today Indian Hindus as well as Pakistani Muslims form sizeable populations in Britain, why was it only the British Muslims who planted bombs in London Underground? The West had long colonised Phillipines, and the Americans had fought a brutal war with the Filipinas in the early 20th century, yet the Filipinas didn’t bomb WTC. The Whites originating in the West had an apartheid system in South Africa upto the 90’s and Hong Kong was a Western colony upto the 90’s as well. Why don’t the South Africans and Hong Kong people hatch elaborate terrorism plots in Europe? The non Western nations like Brazil are busy developing their economies unlike the self pitying and murderously militant Muslims. They’re taking their destiny into their own hands, instead of wallowing in self pity, blaming others for their misfortunes, and killing innocents.
2) Why don’t Muslims just restrict their actions to their actions to their former colonizers?
Muslim terrorists are waging brutal Civil Wars in Asia, against the Buddhists in Thailand and the Catholics in Phillipines. None of these are Western nations. In Algeria, Islamists who want the country to run on Shariah principles and espouse punishments like stoning which you’re so fond of , have killed almost half a million fellow Muslims. Netherlands was a former colonizer of Indonesia, yet many Moroccans live in Netherlands. One particular Moroccan, who was living idly in Netherlands on state benefits contributing nothing to the nation, killed a filmmaker Theo Van Gogh by brutally stabbing him. If life in the West is so bad, why immigrate there from Morocco? And why kill in a nation, which is keeping you on welfare benefits, and you don’t have to earn your living? 😉
Like human rights workers, Muslim terrorists know neither East nor West, don’t differentiate between colonizers and non colonizers. They follow the mantra of the human rights groups: Think globally, act locally. 🙂
-
Who are you talking to SHLOKa?
I ceased reading your repetive strain of fundamentalist argument along time ago._Do not recite poetry to one wqho is not poet,bring out you sword¬
(hagakure,book of the samurai)At least your corhort dewa is more of a challenge,or at least a new one.
-
What the hell..Im rather bored…
Since you seem to be so fond of showing your nakedness in public, and are a sucker for sadomasicistic(properbly spelt that wrong too) beatings of the verbal kind,especially turned on as you are by the idea that Allah the god of the muslims,wishes that on you,then allow me as the defender of the faith administer your punishment on his behalf.
only the natural response
substitute `a’ for `the’ and the meaning changes so dramatically,perhaps my inadequacy (or more accurately disregard for spelling)made you think i wouldnt notice?
It is only one of many responses.I didnt suggest it was the only one or `the’ response.Nor did i legitimise this response,inevitable as it is i only gave a rational for it.why was it only the British Muslims who planted bombs in London Underground? #
Why do u ask questionsthat have obvious answers?I am begining to think you are rather stupid and cant think critically or empaphise with those who arent the same as you,despite you Pretensions to Buddhism.
Phillipines.Jamaica etc ,are not colonized or oppressed systematically by the policy of certain nations in the presnt time.If they werre it doesnt take strong leap of imagination that some jamaican or phillipina would do a similiar thing.
Muslims in the uk didnt plant bombs untill 30 years after arriving there,there making a locallised response to global changes,nothing to do immediately with the legacy of colonialism of years past but that of the present.Im talking almost on karnic level when i talk about naturual response. I thought you of all people ,the great champion of the Buddhist faith should comprehend that at least.!in the early 20th century, yet the Filipinas didn’t bomb WTC
If we were in the early 20th ceentury and they had the means ,it quite possible they would have.
During the boxer rebellion,chinese people indiscrimately killed any Gwaillo they saw.Doesnt quite fit into your quant fantasies of the docile,peace loving far eastern oriental,does it?
Buddhist japanese burnt christians at the stake.
Examples of reaction against coloniaalism (have you heard of Northern Ireland) where innocents are bombed are a part of resistance in every culture(Tamils in Sri Lanka,the originators of the modern suicide bombing) are another contemporary example.
In Sri Lanka the 20th century civil war between the mostly Buddhist Sinhalese majority and the Hindu Tamil minority has cost 50,000 lives.So much for your peacenick Budddhism .Pol Pot was also a buddhist,perhaps Buddhisms equivalent of Bin Laden.To take Bin ladens version of Islam as the standered is about as valid as Pol Pots version of Buddhist reform.Its more than just a bit unfair.Even then Bin Laden wasnt so stupid to Nuke his own people first.
Civil Wars in Asia, against the Buddhists in Thailand
Civil,not religous wars…you properbly advocate for independence of the natives elswhere,but not for the malays who wish to be part of Malaysia.Im not qualified enough
to comment on that particular issue in depth,but have lived there long enough to know it is esssentially nothing ultimately to do with Religion.
Muslims in Aceh are striving for independence from the rest of Muslim Indonesia,this is not a religous issue, its economic.Catholics in Phillipines
The moros have been persecuted properbly longer than any other community in the world.THe moros want independence in areas where they were historically always the majority.They have been stabbed in the back by both the Spanish and Americans,even now the oppression of the moros has been supported by the usa who maintain a strong millitarty prescence in the phillipines.Independence and democaracy for eveyone but not the muslims.
Once again you make statement about and area you dont have any knowledge about.
`The non Western nations like Brazil are busy developing their economies’
So are Malaysia,Uae,Brunei and the rest of the muslim world,what kind of argument is that anyway,everybody want to get weallthy.
Indonesia never reached its economic potential (which far surpassed that of Malaysia) because of its indebtness to the IMF and the strategic economic reliance the multinationals imposed upon it at the very moment of its new era.(See how they tried their best to topple Sukarno)>Not blaming it all on the West here or the multinationals ,but they created rotten core from which it was always going to be downhill.There are imperialist hands everywhere in the world,trying to fashion a society in their own image. The rest of the world seems to given up,its is only because the muslim countries have vision and belief in their own heritage that is stronger,that they cant accept it.
In Algeria, Islamists who want the country to run on Shariah principles .Islamist that were voted in democartically ,but never recognised by the west who provide finacial and millitary support to discredit and quash them.Why didnt the champions of democracy ,rush in to uphold democracy in ALgeria?
If life in the West is so bad, why immigrate there from Morocco?
Why do bules go to indonesia,if they cant stick Islam?Same reason.
Like human rights workers, Muslim terrorists know neither East nor West, don’t differentiate between colonizers and non colonizers. They follow the mantra of the human rights groups: Think globally, act locally
If that statement is directed to me,then youre preaching only to the converted.I have as much love for the Islamic fundamentalist as i do of Islam haters like you.
You both display the same charesteristics of looking at everything that happens from pre-defined and prejudiced mindset ,which is a product of an incapacity to actually look at the facts objectively,or understand the nature of things.See how insistent you were in trying to tell me that the quran says and how i should behave,even though objectively when it comes to evaluating the quran you are from any and every perspective illiterate!
What i ask, is the difference between you and a muslim fanatic?.You are both the same devil in a different guise.
-
Aluang Anak Bayang says:
I can answer this one.
Muslims in the uk didnt plant bombs untill 30 years after arriving there,there making a locallised response to global changes,nothing to do immediately with the legacy of colonialism of years past but that of the present.Im talking almost on karnic level when i talk about naturual response. I thought you of all people ,the great champion of the Buddhist faith should comprehend that at least.!
We are talking about 30 years ago, aren’t we? I may be wrong, but these are the possibilities:
1) The UK White Policy decades ago did not allow easy immigration, and non-Whites were deemed inferior. Any wrong move would enabled them be deported immediately. In another word, when dealt with heavy hand like in China, they behave. When you
2) They did not number enough to present such threat.
3) They were not organised.
4) They do not have the recipe nor access to bomb making materials.
5) 30 years ago, there ain’t many mosques for clerics to preach the real Islam.There are more, but I am having a nap now.
-
) The UK White Policy decades ago did not allow easy immigration, and non-Whites were deemed inferior. Any wrong move would enabled them be deported immediately.
Mass immigaration of muslims to England began 30 years ago,it was alot easier back then.Who cares about deportation when youre already dead?
2) They did not number enough to present such threat.
It only take one crazy fanatic to carry out a suicide bombing.3) They were not organised.
See above,it doesnt take organisation,it only takes the will of one individual.In terms of organisation,they havent got very far either.4) They do not have the recipe nor access to bomb making materials.
Bombs have been around for hundreds of years.
5) 30 years ago, there ain’t many mosques for clerics to preach the real Islam.
The real Islam:no such thing,Its only what we make of it.Itu condisi Pak,tak Agama.
There are more, but I am having a nap now.
Tired so quickly?
Im out of here too,rest assured i am thinking about my response to `Muhammed was paedophile.’
-
One more ..
30 or so more years ago, many Western countries and especially Australia were particularly anti-Black and anti-Asians. If a moslem were to explode bomb back then, I can bet the whole population of Asian and Middle Eastern, be they Buddhist, Christian or Moslem (then in awfully minorities) will be lynched to kingdom come by the White mobs. No such thing as human rights back then. Your stupidity not to contemplate this possibilities is possibly Islam related.
This is Javanese wisdom. 🙂
-
Your stupidity not to contemplate this possibilities is possibly Islam related.
Who says the suicide bomber would consider such trivialties?After all gods on his side!
30 or so more years ago, many Western countries and especially Australia were particularly anti-Black and anti-Asians.
Just make that Anti muslim now..Anyway with your javanese wisdom pak, you should know that generations of hatred for the black/brown and yellow man do not dissapear in a 30 year window.
-
barry prima,
Its your stupidity thats’ amazing. The LTTE of Sri Lanka call themselves a secular Marxist Organization, just like the PKK of Turkey, notice how I don’t include the PKK in my analysis of Islamist terrorism? Neither the LTTE of Sri Lanka, nor the Basques of Spain or even the Kurdish Guerilla(PKK) of Turkey call themselves religious, nor do they cite a single religious propaganda in their preaching. The Kurds have managed to kill thousands too, but unlike you I do more reading, so I don’t go about blaming Islam for secular violence. Pol Pot too was an atheist Leninist, is Osama Leninist? In the Israel Palestine conflict, the PLO call themselves secularist, Marxist Leninist, and don’t cite any religious propaganda. The Hamas and Hezbollahs, not only cite the noble Quran, they promise male suicide bombers 72 virgins to blow up innocent Israelis. As per Koran. 🙂
In Thailand and Phillipines, the Muslims don’t only wage separatist wars, they call their wars,”jihad” emulating the noble Prophet. They have an explicitly religious agenda, as they themselves admit it and base all their propaganda on. Why don’t you request them to change their stance from religious jihad to secularist Marxist Leninist struggles?
Its not only the White man who’s bothered by Muslims, in Sudan, whose population is all Black, its the Black animists and Christians persecuted by fanatic Muslims, in Asia its the mongoloid Filipinas etc. As I said- Muslims think globally, act locally.
U.A.E. and Brunei are blessed with oil. What notable electronic gadgets, cars, toys etc do I buy from Brunie like I buy from South Korea or even Communist China?
Oh and Malaysia. Its still only 60% Muslim, and the richest in Malaysia isn’t at all the Muslims, its the Chinese. Anti Chinese violence in Malaysia runs high, the Malaysian Muslims had rioted violently against the Chinese, so the Malaysian Government instituted a policy where Malays get preferential treatment in jobs. Malaysia also doesn’t have freedom of religion, anyone wanting to leave Islam is imprisoned, and anyone marrying a Muslim is obliged to convert to Islam. Lina Joy a convert to Christianity and Revathi Masoosai a convert to Hinduism have been imprisoned. Revathi has been forcibly separated from her Hindu husband and baby daughter, all by the Government.
And guess what happened to the Muslims in Malaysia? After 30 years of preferential treatment in jobs, they’re still the poorest in Malaysia, the richest are the Chinese, second the Hindu Indians. Malay Muslims=poorest. 😉
I’m not a champion of any particular faith, just modern human rights. I support the full right to change religion, something which is a part of every Western nation with majority Christian populations, but which even Malaysia notoriously lacks. I oppose stoning for adultery, and I see Christ saving an adulteress from stoning, while Mohammed asked an adulteress to be stoned. I support women’s rights to wear what they want, which even Indonesia’s Aceh prohibits, which every nation on Earth, including Communist ones support.
Umm, why the Bali bombings? Were the Balinese systematically oppressing the Muslim Indonesians, or were the Australians whom the bombers killed oppressing Indonesians? Again, the bombers specifically cite the Quran, rather than any secular Marxist motive for their actions.
-
barry prima,
Before you accuse me of being a champion of the West, let me admit that I’m one. It was an American Catholic President Kennedy, who requested the Saudi King in 1962 to abolish slavery, 100 years after it had been outlawed in the America.
And Stalin of Russia wasn’t a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian, he was an atheist Marxist as well. 😉
For all Stalin’s and others Marxist’s faults, they don’t force women to dress as walking talking genitals, or stone adulteresses to death!
-
I could refute every single point you made there..as easily as i have before ,.youll just find new ones..and new channels for the same justifications for your terror of muslims..
Its not even fun anymore..so im not going to bother..
-
barry prima,
Allright please don’t bother. I don’t see either Christ or Buddha, none of whom are my Prophets, indulging in sex with underage girls. What’s your take on this?
-
Cukurungan says:
indulging in sex with underage girls. What’s your take on this?
What is wrong check yourself why most of your kind is so smelly, it is likely because there was continue amplification DNA smell carrier among your kind, because 1400 year ago when your goddess was told in Mahabharata are still f*cking each other among farther , sister, mother and son.
Can you imagine if your Goddess can do so, so what else could prevent father to kick his own daughter and son to kick his own mother. -
@ Barry Prima
Mass immigaration of muslims to England began 30 years ago,it was alot easier back then.Who cares about deportation when youre already dead?
Mass immigration only began 30 years back as you said. No one is dumb enough to throw away the chance of a new life in a wealthier country the moment your host open the door. You wait, you settle down first, and when you have a comfortable number, you demand and when you do not get what you want, you start to play up.
It only take one crazy fanatic to carry out a suicide bombing.
Yes, it is exactly what they are doing now. There is no such thing as Islamic Crazy fanatic; every moslem (bar Javanese moslem) is a fanatic. It is a matter of when or if you have the gut to do it. Evil thrived and manifested itself without check in countries with less smarter people like the Javanese. I know White Boy are not as murderous as Middle Easterns; White Boys adhesion to Islam are of perverted nature. It moralised their immoral fantasies. I may be wrong but chances are that I am right. Here in Indonesia, Islam in its pure form is not compatible to our way of life. We had rejected it, and we will reject it again.
See above,it doesnt take organisation,it only takes the will of one individual.In terms of organisation,they havent got very far either.
After 3 decades, they are better organised now. They know their way around. 🙂
4) They do not have the recipe nor access to bomb making materials.
Bombs have been around for hundreds of years.
Yes, bombs have been around for a long time, but they still need to download bomb recipe and instructions from the internet.
5) 30 years ago, there ain’t many mosques for clerics to preach the real Islam.
The real Islam:no such thing,Its only what we make of it.Itu condisi Pak,tak Agama.
Condisi apa dong? You need to elaborate on this.
There are more, but I am having a nap now.
Tired so quickly?
Of course. Why am I wasting time with a White Boy trying to sell Islam to Javanese? It is like a goose trying to teach an eagle how to fly.
-
Cukurungan said
What is wrong check yourself why most of your kind is so smelly, it is likely because there was continue amplification DNA smell carrier among your kind, because 1400 year ago when your goddess was told in Mahabharata are still f*cking each other among farther , sister, mother and son.
Cukurungan is becoming enraged. Something must have stung him. Probably an Indian bee.
Or is it his Indian liver transplant which starts to show rejection symptoms? 🙂 -
santana says:
Rima,
your mind path that have been in sensible corridor and path, mind like that has since ahead told by the good state thinkers of that is west thinker which liberalis and also
which communist east thinker altogether mutuallies agree to expressing that religion is resistor progress and so. forum this we don’t study and repeats analysis of the thinkers
the in detail causes why the religion until becoming progress resistor but like the one your tells that religion of completely useless create a the progress of course it is a fact. let us is test and analysis whereof the role and its(the profit or loss the religion
stays in a state especially in indonesia and whole world generally,that be briefer world of we hook;correlates is just directly with state where the religion confessed by state and believe by the its(the followers. Function of religion is how to a relating to its(the God (systim person) doesn’t function / over a barrel to arrange and arranges public in consequence it is function of power ( governmental) contoh case, In the light of political approach by the power player ( politician) hence religions mass especially Islam that is the numbers majority of vital importance for dribbled where on earth ( konspirasi Politisi and Peer figure) hereinafter is moved and finally used in voting at general election ( enough with disguised and engineered in the form of party having symbol Islam), and so do the things of with various other cases often until shedding blood even until sacrificing soul that is is not a few the numbers example of cases Ambon, poso etc.. So at politician elite level hence function of this religion just as a equipment just in collecting mass and hereinafter used to depress opponent for the shake of reaching
purpose of its(the politics, while at its(the follower mass level opinion?sight which has been formed is that is what commanded by Figure / Its(the moslem scholar is compulsion as a Jihad. Here explains once seen how Fungsi the religion only iperpolitisir by which its(the name Elit (cooperation between power and moslem scholar peer figure) in reaching power in world with promises heaven admission in eternity/the beyond to its(the supporter mass if following the order its(the moslem scholarto do Jihad. -
LOL @ dewa
ahh .. I remembered the Indian liver transplant. Our dear cuk is part Indian.
-
Cukurungan is becoming enraged. Something must have stung him. Probably an Indian bee.
Or is it his Indian liver transplant which starts to show rejection symptoms?Hi hi hi honestly, it is not rejection but not function anymore because He was passed way last year after enjoyed the hidustan liver about 15 years
-
Cukurungan is becoming enraged. Something must have stung him. Probably an Indian bee.
Brother with crystal clear a biological evidence (smelly) and narrative explanation below…..do you still me accuse me an enrage boy?
Please enjoy :
http://www.barossa-region.org/Australia/INCEST-IN-HINDU-SOCIETY.html
-
LOL
Looks like Indonesians are the normal decent citizen of the earth. Thanks to our prophet Ratu Adil.
-
You wait, you settle down first, and when you have a comfortable number, you demand and when you do not get what you want, you start to play up.
No you put your backpack on,say your prayers, and go with a smile towards your mission as you know the 72 houris are waiting expectantly for you to also blow them into kingdom cum.If the world situation was the same 30/40 years ago,they would have done the same thing.
White Boys adhesion to Islam are of perverted nature. It moralised their immoral fantasies
You mean to give sanctionto their perverted lust for Muslim hotties,especially in Indonesia,where they are only half converted and thus will jump into bed with any man whose skin is white
Youre just a bad loser in that case.
I know White Boy are not as murderous as Middle EasternsWe dont bomb a couple of buses,we bomb entires nations and kill a millions of their children with sanctions and thats just skimming the surface..
Do not undersestimate out capacity for murderous activity,the arabs have got nothing on us in that department.
Of course. Why am I wasting time with a White Boy trying to sell Islam to Javanese? It is like a goose trying to teach an eagle how to fly.As i said, there are enough buyers in the emerging muslim economies of the west , to keep me in a healthy profit.Why should i make an investment in a country which was already sold on the idea of islam hundreds of years ago?You are one the exceptions my dear ,of little significance.
-
Its funny that report comes out of Australia. Here’s another news report I read about Australia.
A father and daughter who have revealed they are couple and have a child together had another baby who died a few days after birth from a congenital heart disease, court documents show.
John Earnest Deaves and his daughter Jennifer Anne Deaves are at the centre of an incest scandal in South Australia over their seven-year relationship.
The pair revealed their relationship on Channel 9’s 60 Minutes program last night, saying they were just asking for some respect and understanding.
In March this year, they were placed on three-year good behaviour bonds after pleading guilty to two counts of incest.
District Court sentencing judge Steven Millsteed said the first count of incest was based on an act of sexual intercourse which resulted in the birth of the couple’s first child.
The second count of incest related to an act of sexual intercourse which resulted in the birth of their second child in May last year.
“The first child was born in 2001 but died a few days after birth due to a congenital heart disease,” Judge Millsteed said.
The couple had started a relationship together after being reunited in 2000, almost 30 years after Mr Deaves separated from Jenny’s mother.
Because of problems with her own marriage, Ms Deaves had gone to live with her father at Yongala, in South Australia.
Their physical relationship developed later that year and both ended their marriages and began living together.
Jenny stayed with them four times before their marriage broke down in 2000 after the father and daughter took a trip to Dubbo together, she said.
The couple had their first child while living in Rockhampton, Queensland, before moving to Port Pirie, in South Australia.
After the birth of their second child they moved to Bordertown, near the Victorian border where the Department of Families and Communities became aware of their relationship and turned the matter over to police.
Judge Millsteed said that when contacted by police the Deaves made full admissions.
Revealing their relationship on Nine last night, the Deaves said they were just asking for some respect and understanding.Mr Deaves admitted that he “initially” thought having sex with his daughter was wrong.
“Emotions take over, as people no doubt realise. There are times during your life where emotions do rule the heart, it rules the head,” he said.
SOURCE: The Australian, Australia’s largest selling newspaper.
Comment on “Religion & Religiosity”.
Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-2023
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact
Patrick said:
One only have to stay focused while debating in the public domain in order not to look silly. At least you would spell my nickname right but I’m afraid that’s already too much asked.