My Friend the Fanatic

Jun 13th, 2008, in Opinion, by Patung

View the original article here.

137 Comments on “My Friend the Fanatic”

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timdog Says:
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Dewa, I’m sure you are well aware, that I am hardly likely to be confused about the difference between Srivijaya and Majapahit, and the other “Indinnised Kingdoms”… What I was playing down here was the role of those Indianised Kingdoms as mighty, unifying forces encompasing the entire archipelago, as they are often (mis)represented in nationalist understandings of History…

I have been to Bali more times than I could possibly count (I used to spend a couple of weekends there a month on top of all the other, lengthier spells I’ve passed there)…
What I see when I step down from the plane there is an “intense and omnipresent” Balinese culture; the “Hindu” bit being perhaps something of a red herring (it took me a good while to get my head round that the very first time I stepped down from the plane at DPS, familiar as I already was with “Hinduism” from the Subcontinent, and seeing nothing in Bali that I recognised).

“Foreign” religion in Indonesia is absolutely typified by the slightly misguiding term “syncretism”. I wrote elsewhere about the way that a country or society consumes a new religion, rather than the new religion consuming it. Balinese Religion illustrates that perfectly: bits and pieces of Hinduism and Buddhism that washed ashore on Archipelago and Indian Ocean trade routes, swallowed, chewed up and digested by a much older, localised faith. That’s what makes Balinese Religion so attractive and so unique.
You can see local religion at less advanced stages of consuming foriegn culture if you visit more remote communities further east of Bali: The Wetu Telu people on Lombok, the Marapu people on Sumba…

An annecdote: a while back I was in Sumba again; I went to Wunga, regarded in Marapu culture as the “original” ancestral village, the place where the first settlers arrived and built the first clan houses. It’s a place governed by strict taboos and is spectacularly remote… Now, everywhere else in Sumba the ancestor myth has it that the ancestors came from India and travelled by way of the SE Asian mainland before coming ashore near Wunga. But in Wunga itself they told me, with absolute conviction that the ancestors had actually come from – wait for it – Mecca; from there they went to Medina, then onwards to India etc… I almost choked on my sirih-pinang when they told me that, but later on went skipping back down the hillside, delighted by this fine example of syncretic “consumption” of “the foreign” in action (a religion without a prescribed sacred text does this very effectively)…
As far as I’m concerned, Bali simply represents a more advanced, more refined form of this same phenomenom… To connect it too closely to some mythologised “classical” past, perhaps even to label it “Hinduism” at all, ultimately trivialises it a little…

For the record, Balinese-Javanese culture has at least got as far as “swallowing” “Indian” cultural-religious elements; it’s only just started chewing Islam; at risk of coming over all VS Naipaul, there is absolutely nothing inherently “Muslim” about Indonesian culture; nothing “Islamic” has trickled down beyond the very top level.
Everywhere from the deserts of northwest China to the Atlantic coast of Morocco you will find cultures that have chewed, swallowed and digested their Islam; you will find certain constants, certain modes of behaviour of speech, of manner that are utterly authentic, that are not affectations, and that make those places “Muslim”. Indonesia is totally outside that loop and I think anyone familiar with the rest of the “Muslim world” with a sympathetic eye will notice that. This is exactly why attempts to “Islamise” Indonesia at a forced pace are particularly unattractive; not only unattractive, but also very, very silly… But equally, claming a formalised, institutionalised historical “Hindu” alternative is almost as wide of the mark…
The “thin, flaking glaze” line has been used to describe both the Islam and the “Indianised” culture of the archipelago; it’s something of an over-simplification, suggesting as it does an unadulterated “native” relgion free from the taint of “the foreign”, bubbling away beneath the veneer, but it is at least a step in the right direction towards understanding just what is so interesting and attractive about “Indonesian” cultures…
Lairedion Says:
June 24th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Dewa,

What were you thinking? You must understand that timdog understands your culture better than yourself, despite the fact he wasn’t born and raised in your culture and only observed and analyzed your culture from an outsider’s point of view.

The same counts for Shloka. Born in Bangladesh, fled to India and now living in Kolkata but always missing the point on Subcontinental matters because a UK based bule told her so.
mirax Says:
June 24th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Tim Dog, so the classical past is effectively fake by your reckoning because it didn’t
a) have the geographical spreadth you deem necessary, ie the modern borders of the indonesian republic
b) remmnants of it that have survived, say on Bali ,dont bear the features of hinduism you recognise ?

There is no continuity from the old hindu-buddhist past in terms of the music, dance, numerous artforms that are still practised?

Also, the present day Indonesians arent authentically muslim? What are the markers of speech, manner, practice etc they are missing?
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
June 24th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Mirax,

Bladhy Blah Blah, you Bra… I mean Ind… I mean certain ethnic groups of Singaporeans are so argumentative!
Lairedion Says:
June 24th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
mirax,

Majapahit was the largest Indianized kingdom with its capital in Trowulan, East Java and had influences reaching close to current Indonesian territories. Some nationalists refer to this kingdom to lay “rightfully” claims on these current Indonesian territories. Timdog was clearly talking about politics here.

When talking about Indonesia’s Hindu-Buddhist past we’re not talking about specifically its current territories but about Nusantara, roughly said Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei. Even Catholic and Muslim Phillipinos understand the concept of karma as part of their native ethics.

Hindu presence goes back to 100 AD when Indian scholars reported the existence of the Dvipantara kingdom in Sumatra and Java and a writing system based on scripts from southern India was introduced as a writing system in Java. Around 425 AD Buddhism arrived in Nusantara so you see both Hinduism and Buddhism have had a presence in Indonesia for almost 2000 years. This is still prevalent in the amount of temples, religion and culture (kejawen, Bali Hinduism, wayang), concepts and symbols (Pancasila, Bhinneka Tunggal Ika, Garuda).

To give you an example, my Sundanese (West Java) wife’s grandparents initially weren’t allowed to marry each other because grandpa was of “low caste” and grandma was of “middle caste” but the both of them are Muslim. This example is just from everyday life of ordinary Sundanese people, not explained with pompous intellectual references or politically-influenced analyses.
timdog Says:
June 24th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Lairedion – sincere thanks for understanding and pointing out to mirax that when talking about the “classical” kingdoms I was talking about their conscription into modern nationalist politics, a very specific issue and one not related to the rest of what I’m going on about here…

As to your other point in your earlier post, a very simple illustrative example:
When a Sumbanese Marapu ancestor worshipper says that his forbears came originally from Mecca, then travelled onwards from there to Medina, then to Sumba, you and I can instantly see and understand the source of this belief, and from that point can perhaps begin to assess exactly how the pre-existing belief system has internalised it.
For that Marapu man himself Mecca is simply where the ancestors came from, and all that cool analysis is entirely irellevent, and rather misses the point.
At the same time I would never, never never float around in loose white cotton and beads drivelling about the way the Marapu people have “a unique and ever-present connection with with the land and the ancestors in a way that we have lost in the west; lifebalancespiritualpeacewisdomblahblahblahblahblah…” If I did that you would have my permission to shoot me…
The point is this: some things are impossible to understand from the outside looking in; some things are very, very hard to see from the inside looking out. I would have thought you would recognise that.

mirax – at no point did I suggest that there was no continuity between present day “Indonesian” culture and all manner of things that existed in the past; quite the contrary…
Shloka Says:
June 24th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
@ timdog,

You might have familiarized yourself with Hinduism from the sub continent for 10 years, I have lived there for 16 years, 10 years of which I clearly remember.If you travel to Orissa- their favorite deity is Jagannath, and their favorite Hindu festival the Rath Yatra, and then ask a Hindu from Punjab and Haryana whether they’ve even heard of either Jagannath or Rathyatra, probably half or more will answer no. You might have heard of the Hindu epic Ramayan- its villain is clearly a demon called Ravan. Yet Hindus in South India worship Ravan as god, and there are temples devoted to him, an idea which would be abhorrent to North Indian Hindus. Can you imagine Christians worshipping Satan and still retaining their Christianity?

You’ve clearly tried to see Hinduism as something similar to the great monotheistic faiths of Christianity, Islam and Judaism, whereas it is closer to say Ancient Egyptian paganism. Ancient Egyptian and Sudanese towns each had their patron deity,and while those polytheists shared many gods and customs, they differed in many respects. This is why while Christians look apon very poorly on Mormons, and Muslims are extremely hostile to Ahmadiyyas, an addition or subtraction of a few gods or customs don’t hugely effect Hindus one way or another.Jews, Christian and Muslims each have their holy books, a definite system of prayer or fasting and are very belligerent to anyone who’d disturb the existing belief system. This is probably why Jews crucified Jesus( if it happened at all) who criticized Judaism, while although Buddha criticized Hinduism, Hindus worship him as God.

I really am not trying to prove Hinduism’s superiority to other faiths, just showing that the Hindus may vary far more in their ideologies and practices, while still calling themselves Hindus, and Hinduism has adopted local gods\esses and customs and made them integral to the belief system, unlike Christianity or Islam, which choose to annihilate local beliefs.Thus when Christianity sought to replace Hellenic paganism, the Hellenic gods became “daimons” at worst or angels at best, whereas if Hinduism chooses to establish itself at Bali, the local gods will be welcomed as colleagues of Hindu gods, and given a position of respect alongside them. Thats just how Hinduism functions.
Lairedion Says:
June 24th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
timdog,

I’m talking about everyday life, the decisions people make everyday and how this is influenced by history, religion and surroundings. That’s culture. You have your British/Irish/Cornish culture I’ll never know. I’m not born and raised into it and that makes me an outsider. Even if I have studied British culture thoroughly I would never take any attempt to correct Brits over their own culture because I consider this highly disrespectful.

If Balinese name their own culture Hindu culture, so be it and accept it. No need for patronizing bules ridiculing one’s Balinese Hindu culture because they expected something they have experienced before on the Subcontinent. If you cannot accept and respect this I suggest you don’t disembark that plane at DPS and fly back to the UK.
timdog Says:
June 24th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Lairedion, let’s get one thing straight, I am not “ridiculing” anything.

I’m talking about everyday life, the decisions people make everyday and how this is influenced by history, religion and surroundings.

With you all the way on that.

Second point: you probably are far better positioned to make a sober, objective assessment of British history, certain elements of its culture and the country’s role in the world than the average British person – myself included (though of course, you have no idea whatsoever about what it actually feels like to be British).
You said:

Even if I have studied British culture thoroughly I would never take any attempt to correct Brits over their own culture because I consider this highly disrespectful.

I’m not going to start the same old same old again, but pause for breath and consider what a spectacular piece of hypocritical double standards on your part this is.

Finally, why, in any case, the need to cast Indonesia as culturally beholden to India any more than to cast it as culturally beholden to 7th Century Arabia? What the hell’s wrong with just trying to raise the concept of something uniquely and exclusively “Indonesian”, something that has been variously influenced by, amongst other things, China, “India”, Islam, colonialism, but which, ultimately, if you boil it down to its purest essence remains “Indonesian” (or more acurately Sundanese, Javanese, Madurese, Balinese, Sasak, Bimanese etc etc…)?
(Actually, the obvious answer to this question is our natural craving for tangible textual or physical sources for our understanding of history, but there’s no reason why we can’t shake this off)…
Shloka Says:
June 25th, 2008 at 9:35 am
@ Lairedion,

I’m very sorry to hear about the troubles your grandparents went through to get married at least initially. I don’t consider Hinduism to be free from faults, there are many very serious flaws, and the caste system is undoubtedly the greatest flaw. Its’ been abolished in India and Nepal, and we’ve had low Caste Chief Justices and Heads of State.Of course, lots remain to be done at the local, especially rural levels.

I like the saying of a Jewish Reform Rabbi who warned neo-converts to Judaism that they were entering a religion which is not perfect but perfectible. The Danish Church ordains gays as priests. I hope any vestiges of the caste system can be weeded out completely, and if criticisms of timdog’s and others like him encourage some Hindus to clear their own house, I’d be very happy.
Lairedion Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 11:48 am
Shloka,

Those were my wife’s grandparents and to state they suffer is far too strong. It was just to show to mirax remnants of Hinduism still exist in Sundanese (West Java) culture. The three different levels of Sundanese and Javanese language (rough, basic and polite) are also proof of this.

My parents-in-law were the ones who really suffered. By leaving Islam they were disowned and shunned by relatives and friends. Hinduism didn’t play any part in that.

timdog,

Observing and analysing are all OK but that’s something different than patronizing and correcting all the time. And yes, you were ridiculing dewa by dismissing the Hindu part of his Balinese culture, intentionally or not.
Sri L. Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Many thanks to all of you, folks! I hope Patung and others will keep finding other topics that excite so much passsion among IM’s readers and authors. I very much enjoy all your comments, especially the darts.

Right now the weather is quite pleasant but I know that when I come home after a long day’s work on a very wintry night, this blog will be even more appreciated.
Patung Says:
June 26th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Thanks Sri.
santana Says:
August 20th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Islam Understanding ( Kaffah/totalitas) with Islam(isme) two different words, like the one is told [by] Rasul that, ummat Islam will be broken after me and this really has happened and which most real since power of Islam resided in hand [by] Muawiyyah ( Bani umayyah) where Islam dipolitisation in such a manner becomes all kinds of Understanding, where initially there’s only one Din Islam which by Rasul used as place / organizational as a mean to fights for the straighten of Holy to become Rahmatan lil alamin is earth, then after dying it 4 friend hereinafter emerges to become hundreds of even thousands of stream/sekte/mazab. Logical consequence from breaks of Ummat Islam hence Every mazab of course obliges rabidity of someone or its(the group to its(the mazab, sometimes until alleging Kafir for group of other Islam which assumed external from its(the group(the understanding or because of opinion differing in. Action like that by each group of mazab we can say as a
way/strategi in reaching vision and missi each group of mazab that the its(the followers is really believes Islam model like will which be embraced it,for a while so formerly.
Odinius Says:
July 4th, 2009 at 5:34 am
Bringing this one back from the dead because of this quote:

[quote]The overall message of the book is that Islamist political and cultural forces are gaining the upper hand in Indonesia, most starkly seen in the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood affiliated Justice Party (PKS) – the PKS is mentioned again and again, Dhume I think has the same “problem” as this site sometimes has – an over pre-occupation with what is still a fairly minor party.[/quote]

…is certainly timely.

So what’s the deal with the supposed “Islamization/Arabization” of Indonesian politics when everyone’s favorite Islamizer/Arabizer bogeymen hardly budged in terms of popularity?
Patung Says:
July 6th, 2009 at 12:37 am
Quoting myself

and then it might be useful to examine to what extent Islamism has penetrated the ostensibly non-Islamist parties, but this aspect of political developments is not explored – it’s PKS this and that.

Also

Islamic agendas are being adopted by so-called mainstream, secular parties. These parties have increasingly moved toward a pro-Islamic ideological middle-ground in recent years by assuming a ‘nationalist-religious’ platform.

From http://insideindonesia.org/content/view/1210/47/ , a great read!

And

Some progressives and moderates see worrying signals in the April 2009 legislative elections about the long-term trajectories of nationalist, Pancasila-based parties that provide the main electoral alternative to Islamic parties. This concern is not just about the willingness of nationalist parties to stand up to conservative interpretations of Islam, but rather about long-term weaknesses in the nationalist parties themselves.

http://insideindonesia.org/content/view/1216/47/

And this classic
Odinius Says:
July 6th, 2009 at 1:20 am
I think there is some evidence that the co-optation of the “Islamic agenda” by secular parties has eroded the popularity of explicitly Islamic parties, but I don’t think that last quote has legs at all.

PDI-P and Golkar did look weak, but that’s because they basically stand for close to nothing now, and are headed by egocentrists that put their own fortunes ahead of the party’s. Their losses since 2004 also came in part at the expense of the new secular parties that did a good job of chipping away at their base, by appealing to a purba-ish red-and-white pancasila nationalism. These parties also ate into the Islamic vote.

But the only party that can really be described as having been successful in the elections is Partai Demokrat, which has successfully positioned itself between PDI-P and Golkar. PD did well with both Muslims and non-Muslims, abangan and santri.