Shopping Mall Churches

Apr 28th, 2008, in News, by

Mall ChurchChurch services in malls, people in West Java are flocking to shopping malls in order to pray.

"Indonesians seek salvation in shops":

Shopping malls in West Java are home to a growing number of Christian congregations. There are 10 in this mall alone.

Few of them want to talk publicly about why they are here, but off the record they admit it comes down to intimidation by Muslim groups.

According to Church groups more than 100 churches have faced attack or intimidation in the past two years.

The example given in the BBC article is the Gereja Kristen Pasundan (see Anti Apostasy) church in Bandung, which has been attacked several times recently.

The GKP is unable to gather the 90 signatures necessary to gain formal permission, as per the houses of worship law.

Only 20% of the churches in this province have an official permit to hold religious services.

Although the lack of a permit probably applies to most mosques, as well, considering that according to an official in Surabaya, East Java, 90% of the houses of worship in that city don't have a permit, irrespective of which religion. tempo

Saipul Abdullah of the Islamic Defenders Front explains that the FPI have a three-step process for dealing with illegal churches:

  • ask for proof of their legal status
  • issue a warning letter
  • inform the police

There may be a fourth step which is not mentioned. From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7368877.stm.


90 Comments on “Shopping Mall Churches”

  1. avatar triesti says:

    Rima, it’s nice to hear that you dont experience discrimination abroad, but it doesnt mean that it didnt happen to others, especially after 9/11.

    Just as there IS difficulty building a mosque in the West, and a chuch in Indonesia. Yes, there is regulation to allow ppl building their house of prayer, and part of the regulation is an approval from the community in that area. And that’s getting difficult to get for moslem in the West, and it is difficult to get for christian in Indonesia.

    There were also mosques and Islamic elementry schools burning in the West. Do you know that? I am pointing these out to let you know that there is the same problem both in the West or in Indonesia, the only difference is who is the minority in that place.

    It’s all because both communities are afraid of other’s religion.

    if only more people think like Rumi: ‘I go to the synagogue, I go to the church, I go to the mosque, and I see the same altar, and I feel the same spirit.’

  2. avatar melly says:

    Rima, yes I was living very comfortable, enjoying my “majority” status for a moment. Right after 9/11, friends kept asking how it feel to live as minority in a Muslim country. My reply was “delightful”. It was after 9/11 I learned how my Muslim friends faced difficulty not only to pray but even to get into other countries (with visa and airport things). My Muslim friends over there were not only Indonesian.

    I did feel frustrated from time to time with the ridiculous rules here in Indonesia. I wrote it here but, I do realize that the case is not only in this country, but can be found anywhere. And, that’s make me worry and sad.

    Anyhow, even if there’s no church left in this country, or any religious-related buildings, I think I can always sit and pray everywhere, no?

  3. […] Matters reports that people in West Java are flocking to shopping malls in order to pray. Posted by Mong Palatino […]

  4. avatar andrey says:

    This link to open rima’s eyes a little:
    http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/04/30/49143.html

    anyway, even without reading that article, rima, just read Lairedion’s reply.
    a mere handful of people like him can make life hard for a community

    Lairedion:
    If your version of muslim integration means they become less muslim and more christian-like (no headscarf.. mixed pool.. less praying.. alcoholic drinks.. pork eating.. free sex.. etc), do not hold your breath.. hehehe.

    If anything, more and more of your countrymen AND WOMEN (so much about “woman oppressing religion”) are joining us..
    wise men says: if you can’t beat’em, join’em. 🙂 cheers.

    (we dont discriminate between convert and born muslim, or race.. so when you join, you’ll just become one of us. period. all you need to do is saying 2 short sentences, and everyone will call you their brother. you can learn about praying etc later, slowly.
    call your local mosques man.. )

    on the other hand, if integration means mutual respect of culture and values based on equality, then we can talk 🙂

    talking about visiting your local mosque.. I think this is a win win solution for you.
    Why don’t you just go there pretending you want to learn.. If you decided you’ve learn nothing good from them… who knows you’ll see/overheard something really bad you can tell the newspaper.. you can be famous man..
    I can see the headlines:”Lairedion broke up local sleeper cell”
    you’ll be an instant hero and every girl in town will ask you to father them a baby.
    what do you think? I think it is worth it.

  5. avatar rima says:

    andrey:
    it’s just a poll, and they have a right to an opinion. After all, italy is predominantly catholic, and yet there are still 39.7 percent who said Muslims should be allowed to practice their religion and build mosques unconditionally. do you see the same thing happening in saudi arabia? there are 4 million catholic migrant workers there, but no church. there were even cases of christians being arrested for conducting prayers in their own home there.

    and what is this now? a contest of which religion persecutes more?
    i am not participating in this ‘debat kusir’ because i am no longer a muslim nor am i a christian. i actually do not care whether there are 100 million mosques and 0 churches in indonesia or the other way around. i was merely stating the fact that it is not so difficult to build mosques here in europe because the government respect the rights of its citizens, more so than in indonesia.
    of course there are idiotic religious zealots like what the commenter in your article wrote , they are everywhere. it’s the same and even worse in indonesia. i should know, i once was one of them.
    i have enough of religions, actually, and my eyes are open since a looooooong time ago, hence my no religion status. so no need to convince me anymore of one religion more evil than the other, because i already think they are all evil.

  6. avatar dingdong says:

    timdog,

    just as an aside, you don’t need to understand/speak Arabic when listening to broadcasted sermons, at least not where I was. I lived in West Java for quite a few years and the Friday sermon was often conducted in Sundanese and Indonesian, with the odd bit of Arabic thrown in for particular prayers. I understand Indonesian very well, with limited Sundanese (my Indonesian partner has a good grip on it however), and have heard several inflammatory statements about Indonesian and foreign women. (‘pelacur’, ‘WTS’, ‘ayam’ , and ‘sundal’ were some of the words used to describe them). Also saw a secretly filmed sermon in Jakarta where the Imam was describing Indonesian women who did not cover up in the foulest of terms. The sermon was conducted in Betawi, which I understand quite well. Jakartan partner filled in the missing bits, which were vile words for female genitalia. One jumatan in Bandung fell on Christmas day, and people were specifically told not to wish Christians a merry Christmas or acknowledge the day in any way that wasn’t concerned with Islam. Have heard the word ‘kaffir’ used ad nauseum during sermons in all sorts of contexts (but remember this term also applies to non-practising muslims) but never that non-muslims must die: have to say though that I don’t find this toooo surprising!!

  7. avatar timdog says:

    Fair call dingdong… but I assumed that therry’s ridiculous comment refered to the azan and broadcast prayers rather than sermons…
    I willingly admit to once having heard an Indonesian sermon from the street in Sumbawa that was politically inflametory (it was at the height of the Iraq invasion) – fairly standard stuff, but clearly nothing to do with religion…

    Another aside… I have a friend in the town of Gilgit in the hard brown mountains of Northern Pakistan (this man, for Lairedion’s benefit, is, I genuinely believe the most heart-breakingly decent human I have ever met – and he [a devout Muslim] certainly doesn’t consider me “sub-human”).
    There are no non-Muslim “minorities” in Gilgit, but the place is riven by something Indonesia doesn’t know – viscious and often bloody sectarian Shia-Sunni strife.
    My friend told me how Imams of various of the town’s mosques would give violently political sermons, inflaming anti-western or more often local-sectarian passions… he – who speaks Arabic and knows his own religion well – explained that these Imams would sprinkle Urdu sermons with religious phrases and fragments of Arabic to create the impression that they were authentic religious tracts, and their uneducated and possibly illiterate congregations, deffering to alleged religious scholarship, would be accepting…
    “But,” he said, exasperated, “There was no America at the time the Qoran was written down; there was no Israel, no Sunni, no Shia! But when these Imams say you must hate America, must hate Israel, you must hate Sunnis, or Shias, they mix it with Arabic and disguise it as real religious duty – and the uneducated people believe that it is true, that this is the Qoran that they are hearing…”
    For this reason he has given up going to Mosque and prays and studies alone in his own home…

  8. avatar ultratupai says:

    Everyone has missed the point here. Sure, there are the questions of religious freedom and tolerance or intolerance, as the case might be. But the REAL BIG ISSUE is the “MALL” aspect of all of this. Jakarta and so goes the rest of urban Indonesia are MALL crazy. WHY? Read my recent posting at my site…

    In the meantime, as I write, the new St. Maritz Mall in West Jakarta is boasting that it will be the largest mall in Indonesia with “45 hectares of shopping space, 65 story office tower, upscale apartments, state of the art hospital, and a wedding chapel”. You will be able to be born, work, live, and die on a mall. No need to go anywhere or do anything or rub up against the urban poor. Not to be outdone the new MALL OF INDONESIA going up behind the MAG is also making the “largest” claim. This ideology is promoting the “consumer” as the ideal citizen. This will have profound and dangerous consequences for Jakarta and Indonesia.

  9. avatar Deng Xiao Phing says:

    hoila … a sensitive old topics again. In short to describe about Indonesia, it is not a good country for non-muslim to live, period. Beside of complaining too much, to those non muslim citizens of Indonesia, please leave Indonesia …. . You think there will be no happiness outside Indonesia ? you are completely wrong, with oil price hit $122/bbl, SBY will surely announce fuels price hike, he has no option but to increase fuels which will trigger hiper inflation.
    Beside of the racist Indonesian muslim dominant, with muslim way of live, Indonesia will never be prosperous, that is for sure, but when the muslim majority citizen do not mind to live poor because the dogma stipulating the letargic behavior & backward thinking, what can you do to help them … minority brothers ? nothing you can do but do not chose to stay & live side by side with them, get you a s h out of Indon … is the better choice.

    INDONESIA = B E N A N G – K U S U T

  10. avatar adrey says:

    This kind of culture intimidating non-Muslims in Indonesia is the result of the growing number of atheist Indonesians!

  11. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:

    Andrey said

    If anything, more and more of your countrymen AND WOMEN (so much about “woman oppressing religion”) are joining us..
    wise men says: if you can’t beat’em, join’em. cheers.

    Hahaha. There we go again. The same old song repeated time after time until everybody believes his own fantasies. It’s a typical behavioral therapeutic method for people needing to fix some psychiatric deficiency like low self-esteem. It’s called positive reinforcement and it can even make you believe your own lies.
    But have you ever considered how many Submitters are finally awoken and turn their backs – unofficially of course, you know the penalty for murtad – on an ideology that 1400 years ago was born out of the strife (fitna) of a psychopath to control what has now become the biggest tourist trap in the world, the Kaaba? Better check this out: faithfreedom.org

    Lairedion:
    If your version of muslim integration means they become less muslim and more christian-like (no headscarf.. mixed pool.. less praying.. alcoholic drinks.. pork eating.. free sex.. etc), do not hold your breath.. hehehe.

    You are a bit of a bigot slimeball, aren’t you 🙂 ? More Christian-like means free sex??? It’s below-the-belt insinuations like these that show your true Muslim-colours and it’s also the reason why your obsolete cult of hate and violence meets more and more opposition from those who value reason and democracy above authoritarian theocratic mind-control.

    on the other hand, if integration means mutual respect of culture and values based on equality, then we can talk

    You dare to talk about equality. Tell us, Submitter, who invented the notion of ‘dhimmi’?

    But please keep on posting. The monkey is coming out of the sleeve, and everybody can see it’s a very ugly beast.

  12. avatar gigi says:

    If you can live for a thousand years dewaratugedenenenanom, then you shall be able to see whether this so called “cult” will indeed be obsolete or not. If I was a betting person I’d put my money on Islam spreading even more.

    You are a bit of a bigot slimeball, aren’t you 🙂 ?

    And you’re the patron saint of tolerance? Judging from your previous posts, it seems you’re a lot a of a bigot slimeball.

    also the reason why your obsolete cult of hate and violence meets more and more opposition from those who value reason and democracy above authoritarian theocratic mind-control.

    Was that also the reason why more and more Westerners are embracing this supposedly mind-control of a religion? Personal opinions based on wishful thinking are telltale signs of someone with paranoia and inferiority syndrome. If such things made you feel more secure then be it 😉

  13. avatar rima says:

    It’s funny how muslims think that wild life/life without boundaries and free sex is identical to Christian teachings, yet they ask the western/Christian world to get to know them first before them passing bad judgments.

    Alcohol and eating pork, yes it is allowed. but there is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol in moderation (red wine actually promotes good health for the heart) and certainly nothing wrong with eating pork, nobody had died from eating pork, except when they do it in the middle of railway with a train coming at full speed, and they won’t budge.

    Christianity, which is older than Islam, have almost, if not stricter, values. It doesn’t force the women to cover their whole body because the men cant hold their members in their pants, it tells the women to dress politely, which is not revealing. Almost everything else is the same. that includes no dating with kissing etc, ESPECIALLY no sex before marriage. (no sex after marriage with anyone other than the spouse either, harder, because it has to be with one, not four spouses). This also goes for Judaism. The three religions has the same source, so it can’t be that different.

    Muslims insisting their religion is not bad, it’s some of the people that are bad, should realize the same goes for Christians, Jewish, Hindus, Buddhists etc. Older religions had discovered bad ways of life long before Mohammed ever did, even older non-religious people (read: Buddha).

    Nowadays, free sex is done by people within all religion, the difference is, Indonesians that are doing it are doing it in private and acts holier than thou in the public eye.

  14. avatar Janma says:

    wise men says: if you can’t beat’em, join’em. 🙂 cheers.

    I’m pretty sure that it wasn’t a wise man who said that, but a coward.
    I’m not religious, and have never been affiliated with any particular religion from birth, but one of my favorite quotes is from Exodus (23:2) Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil.”
    Now that sounds wiser to me than “if you can’t beat em join em” Pfft!

  15. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:

    gigi said

    Was that also the reason why more and more Westerners are embracing this supposedly mind-control of a religion? Personal opinions based on wishful thinking are telltale signs of someone with paranoia and inferiority syndrome…

    and blablabla…

    Dear gigi, I suppose you are a woman or a girl, aren’t you 🙂 ? Funny, but if Islam is so rapidly expanding then why do I never see in Paris, London or even New York a Western woman wearing muslimah dress? At this very moment I’m staying in Brussels* and I still haven’t spotted any Caucasian woman with a hijab or jilbab, let alone a nikab. You will probably grind your gigi’s, but judging from their racial features the only ones wearing muslimah dress here are those of Turkish or North-African descent, regions where Islam is endemic but which they fled to come shopping in the decadent West.
    Or is it maybe only the men who slyly become Submitters so they can enjoy the pleasures of polygamous marriage? 😉

    * No rima, I’m not one of those DPR-spongers visiting the Belgian parliament, which has obviously harder problems to tackle nowadays as you may well know. But I still have suspicions that besides plesir they also came to Brussels to see what the Belgian parliamentarians are doing to avoid the breaking-up of their country.

  16. avatar gigi says:

    @ dewaratugedenenenanom:

    And I suppose you’re a jobless surfer cowboy with nothing else to do but blaspheming other religion over the the internet, aren’t you? I say, at least you should be man enough to blaspheme other religions on the real world. Go ahead, find a mosque or church on the island and Java and shout some blasphemous remarks in front of the entire congregation, I dare you! If you have the kojones that is, surfer boy. Can you walk the walk?

    Funny, but if Islam is so rapidly expanding then why do I never see in Paris, London or even New York a Western woman wearing muslimah dress?

    Of course you wouldn’t see them, a redneck surfer boy like you would’ve been too busy hanging out on strip clubs and peepshows across those cities, right? I mean, you wouldn’t find a good muslima on those joint, smart man. I have been to some of those cities you mentioned, and I can easily spot some Western women wearing the veil on occasions. As I said, perhaps you and I went to ‘different’ places on our visits there.

    Besides, due to cultural differences and environmental prejudices, white Western women seemed to take it slow and used the one-at-a-time approach on their religious duties as muslimas.

    Or is it maybe only the men who slyly become Submitters so they can enjoy the pleasures of polygamous marriage? 😉

    Why would Western men go to all those troubles of a polygamous marriage when they can simply fornicate with whomever they want? 😉 Touche, indeed!

    I mean, all marriages (polygamous or otherwise) will always need a strong commitment to maintain, both mental and financial commitment. While if all those Western males ever wanted was simply sex, it would be easier and cheaper for them to simply fornicate with different partners, isn’t it? They say it’s more.. “varied” that way.

  17. avatar djoko says:

    @ gigi

    Actually the Muslim population is increasing largely because of higher birth rates as opposed to conversions. There’s probably as many converting as there are heading out. Catholicism is actually growing as well for much the same reason: higher birth rates in third world areas such as Latin America and Africa.

    @ rima

    The fact is, and I’ve seen this directly to, Indonesian Muslims have very little to know idea about the West at all. In pesantren I’ve actually had to explain there’s a difference (though perhaps for some, only slight) between Protestants and Catholics, and even further that there are differences between Christians and Jews. Its all an amalgamated boogy man for them. There certainly does need to be a lot more exchange going on, and particularly Muslims learning about the West rather than just insisting the West learn from them.

    To be perfectly honest, a lot of people I know even from conservative pesantren would love the opportunity to go to Australia and see what its like, but do not have anywhere near the funds to be able to do so. On the one hand people complain about how pesantren communities and Muslims in general are being Saudi-fied (if I can just create that word on the spot), then again the Saudis are the only ones pouring money into scholarships for people to come and study there. I’d really love if the Australian government for example could have a scholarship fund specifically to get people from pesantren communities out to Australia and study. Overseas stays have done wonders for some, just look at a pesantren alumni like the late Cak Nur…

  18. avatar djoko says:

    sorry that first line was a shocker with spelling mistakes

  19. avatar Janma says:

    Why would Western men go to all those troubles of a polygamous marriage when they can simply fornicate with whomever they want?

    who said they can just fornicate whenever they want….? Damn, why do they always trot that argument out? As if it’s accepted in the west to commit adultery! It’s not you know! Most men would find their suitcase in front of the door if they tried it…. western women have other options to sustain their lives and those of their children without having to put up with that! I’ve know a few men to lose their jobs, positions and status in society for committing adultery, and since western culture is based on Christianity and one of Christianity’s main precepts is to NOT commit adultery, I don’t see how you can even say that it is accepted in the west!
    Sure they don’t stone people to death who commit adultery, that doesn’t mean it is accepted!
    Plus, to tell you the truth, almost all my friends, Indonesian and otherwise who have Indonesian (Muslim) husbands, have had them commit adultery at some point, if not continuously.

  20. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:

    Janma,

    wise men says: if you can’t beat’em, join’em. cheers.

    I’m pretty sure that it wasn’t a wise man who said that, but a coward.

    I think it was Julius Caesar who said: “If you can’t beat them, make them rich”. Although he probably said it in Latin, the message is still universally clear. It’s hard to blow yourself up in a new Mercedes. Shame for the car.

  21. avatar rima says:

    @dewaratugedeanom: No those DPR spongers I was talking about was only here for a plesir. They did not do many real work. In the past, many of them are here not only to visit (as a tourist) but in the evening was busy being a sex tourist. I have friends working in the embassy who are reguarly asked to take them (either DPR members or govt officials) find ‘kuda putih’ (white horse = white prostitute). 10 years ago and before that, they will pay good money for a clean white prostitute, nowadays, they find cheap ones, in the red light district for 40/50 euros a pop. so it’s all plesir.

    @djoko: The saudis should give our people scholarship, after all our flock of haj every year give them so much money.
    But I agree, western countries should think about giving scholarships to countries like Indonesia, it’s a good opportunity to shape open minded individuals that could be the future leaders of our country. *wishful thinking*
    I remember when I was still studying in a pesantren and was caught with a walkman listening to my guns n’ roses cassette (yes, still cassettes at the time, CDs weren’t really affordable) I was punished for submitting my ears to the evil music of the Christians, immoral westerns who fornicates with whomever whenever. I secretly laughed cos I knew better, but that’s what my (egypt educated) ustadz thought and I couldn’t really challenge him at the time.

  22. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:

    gigi said

    Go ahead, find a mosque or church on the island and Java and shout some blasphemous remarks in front of the entire congregation, I dare you! If you have the kojones that is, surfer boy.

    Those in the church will probably turn the other cheek.
    Those in the mosque…???

    Quod erat demonstrandum.

    Can you walk the walk?

    I suppose you mean ‘can you walk the talk’. 🙂

  23. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:

    rima

    I remember when I was still studying in a pesantren and was caught with a walkman listening to my guns n’ roses cassette (yes, still cassettes at the time, CDs weren’t really affordable) I was punished for submitting my ears to the evil music of the Christians, immoral westerns who fornicates with whomever whenever.

    But I bet you were listening to ‘Sympathy for the Devil’. Or was it ‘Oh My God’?

    No wonder you were punished.

  24. avatar djoko says:

    I just came across this in Waleed Aly’s book in his chapter about perceptions of Muslim women and veiling and it made me think about some of the comments above about how people have never heard about bad things happening to Muslims in Western countries:

    “Howard found a British echo in the leader of the House of Commons, Jack Straw who revealed in October 2006 that he ‘would rather’ Muslim women did not wear face veils and that he asks female visitors to his office to remove them. Not being able to see a person’s face makes Straw feel ‘uncomfortable’ and harms ‘community relations. The grassroots responses to Staw’s comments hardly enhanced community relations either: the next day a London man pulled the hijab off a young Muslim woman and threw it to the ground. Another threw a newspaper at her and shouted ‘Jack has told you to take off your veil’. A Glasgow imam was punched, kicked , then hit with a chair and a safe deposit box after the weekly Friday congregational prayers. A Turkish student was verbally abused in a Canterbury supermarket by a woman who told her she hated her presence in Britain and demanded that she leave. In Preston, bricks were thrown at cards parked at a mosque while Muslims were praying inside. A mosque in Falkirk was left gutted after being fire-bombed. The next day, a dairy owned by a Muslim family in Windsor was also firebombed and besieged by up to 30 people. ”

    Now of course this doesn’t justify Muslims going around and burning down churches and so on, nor does it mean that Western society as a whole intrinsically hates Muslims. But I found the last two examples in the quote above fairly disturbing. Thats the kind of behaviour which (as can be seen on this site for example) pops up all the time in Indonesia because of the ‘burn first, ask questions later’ mentality of some in the country. What I wasn’t aware of was that people could be like that in Western countries too….

  25. avatar Janma says:

    I think it was Julius Caesar who said: “If you can’t beat them, make them rich”. Although he probably said it in Latin, the message is still universally clear. It’s hard to blow yourself up in a new Mercedes. Shame for the car.

    that reminds me of a joke I heard the other day….. the definition of a mixed blessing…
    “your mother in law driving off a cliff, in your brand new car.”

  26. avatar rima says:

    djoko: ignorant and narrow minded people filled with hatred exist in all countries. except in western countries, people who do that usually gets persecuted and it’s widely taught that intolerance and discrimination/racism is of bad moral values. this is not widely taught in our country, yet. our country is too busy thinking bad moral equals pornography and pornoaction.

  27. avatar Lairedion says:

    djoko said:

    What I wasn’t aware of was that people could be like that in Western countries too….

    Are u serious, dude? Where there are humans there will be violence. The question is how to channel and handle this violence. After WW II Western nations sought to construct institutions to ensure the rights of all people in the concept of liberal democracies. Secularization was one of the catalysts of this progress.

    If a Muslima is ripped off her kerudung she has every single right to report this crime to the authorities and to seek legal action against the committer. There are no fronts or groups over here preventing her from doing so.

    Indonesia only have such intentions written down on a worthless piece of paper, I believe we once called this the Constitution. The people in charge are too busy collecting their bribe money, just don’t care, are intimidated by the MUI morons, are into prioritizing and that’s why we witness loads of self-declared fronts acting on their own, we call this lawlessness.

  28. avatar Janma says:

    ignorant and narrow minded people filled with hatred exist in all countries. except in western countries

    Never been to Fife, Alabama then, have we!?

  29. avatar rima says:

    janma:
    read it again will you:

    ignorant and narrow minded people filled with hatred exist in all countries. except in western countries, people who do that usually gets persecuted and it’s widely taught that intolerance and discrimination/racism is of bad moral values.

    there is a period after the word ‘countries’ then it goes to a whole new sentence. Good thing it’s only my writing you’re quoting bit by bit, no worries of a flock of FPIers coming your way.

  30. avatar Lairedion says:

    rima,

    I must admit at first I read your sentence like Janma did. And it confused me. Then I read it again and saw the dot in-between. It’s amazing what a simple dot can cause.

    Perhaps it’s better to use a capital when starting a new sentence in order to avoid misunderstandings. Just a suggestion, of course….

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