Islamic-Western Civilization

Apr 23rd, 2008, in IM Posts, Opinion, by

FaturFatkhuri says Muslim and Christian civilization have much in common.

The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization

The book written by Bulliet titled The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization is a critique of Huntington's work on the Clash of Civilizations.

Islam & the West - Shared Heritage

Bulliet argues that Islam and the West have common roots and share much of their history. He adds that the present conflict is merely a wilful determination to deny their kinship rather than being based on essential factors.

The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization
The Case for Islamo-Christian Civilization.

Bulliet's work, with his background as a historian, is that he profoundly looks at the historical point of view in order to study about the Islamic and Christian liaison. In my opinion, it is a good way to trace the roots of present conflict to go beyond one's perceptions. He points out that Islam and Christianity have shared their history as cohabitation, which experiences life in harmony.

Islamo-Christian Civilizations indicates a prolonged and fateful intertwining of sibling societies enjoying neighbouring geographical regions and following parallel historical trajectories. Whatever the hostility that probably will emerge in their lives, the same cultural heritage will in turn prevent the conflicts and make possible to attain reconciliation.

The Terrorism Problem

However, Bulliet's work in this sense still has some weaknesses because he relies heavily on historical data and he still does not provide enough data relating to current issues such as terrorism, even though he refers to the September 11th attacks, 2001. It is reasonable because the hostility as well as hatred between Islam and Christianity still takes place and has become an endless debate in dealing with how to solve because of terrorist actions. At least he can propose a solution on how to deal with this.

Indonesia

Concerning the case of Indonesia, the relationship between Islam and Christianity are divided into two phases. Firstly, the phase before independence and secondly the phase after the period of Indonesian independence.

Dutch Period - Missionaries

Along with the former phase, the relationship between Muslims and Christians was irreconcilable. It could be seen from the case of Dutch colonization according to which the Dutch brought not only politics and economic activity but also Christian missionaries as well.

Christian missionaries brought by the Dutch led to the enmity between Islam and Christianity because Indonesian Muslims felt that their religion had been threatened and Indonesian Muslims simultaneously rejected the standard mission of the Dutch.

Independence Period - Communists to Christians

Regarding the latter period, it is obviously different from before independence. This period saw the advent of numerous Christians. It is because of government policy, which attempted to prevent the success of communism, and so required people to choose only one religion over other religion that had been formalized by government at that time.

Consequently, two million people who came from the communist party converted to Christianity in 1966. This fact further engendered hostility and prejudice among Indonesian Muslims.

Muslim-Christian Conflicts

To be precise, according to the empirical evidence, the relationship between Islam and Christianity has been one of unrelenting enmity up to now. It has been proven that the upheavals or the riots that took place in some regions in Indonesia such as, Ambon, Poso, and the like is one corroboration of it.

Leadership among Muslims

Pertaining to the crisis of authority in Islam, there are however, institutions as well as religious leaders or Ulama who have an authority at forcing reconciliation among different religions. In dealing with the Indonesian case at present, religious leaders attempt to bridge the divergence between Islam and Christianity in response to previous conflicts, which has occurred for several years ago in Indonesia.

Gus Dur

One of those is Abdurahman Wahid (Gus Dur) considered as an inclusive Muslim. In this regard, he consistently campaigns for harmony with regard to religious life.

MUI

The other ones are such institutions like MUI (Indonesian Mufti Assembly) which also has an authority in response to religious harmony because in Indonesia MUI has strong power with regard to creating law.

Dialogue

The SARA (tribalism, religion and race) conflicts that have occurred in the name of religion in recent years are proof that there is a lack of understanding of tolerance in terms of religious life either from Islam or from Christianity. Therefore, the only way to create peace in the future is by campaigning for religious tolerance through interfaith dialogue and it of course will lead to a brighter future and more harmonious relations.


23 Comments on “Islamic-Western Civilization”

  1. avatar sputjam says:

    Both are man made religion based on power held by priest/popes and imams, who then impose religious taxes for the benefit of the religious scholars.
    The tibetan monk and dalai lama, before they became hypocrites and support peaceful means to solve a solution, tortured Tibetans who could not afford to pay their religious tithe(tax). Dalai lama are worshipped in Tibet. Buddha would have cringed in his grave, if not for the fact that they have deviated his teachings and fooled everyone that Dalai Lama is the reincarnation of buddha. Tibetans were slaves and in debt to the religious hierarchy. tibetans should thank china for saving them from a miserable life of slavery under religious rule (much like islamic shariaa). But it seems that based on what was shown on TV, tibetans prefer the life of slavery under religious scholars.

  2. avatar Rob says:

    Sputjam…

    Nice slaying of the Tibetans and the Dalai Lama! But my friend you are way off point as the post is about Islamic and Christian relations / civilization and not about whether the Dalai Lama is a fraud that has managed to convince Tibetans that he is the reincarnation of the Buddha and whether Tibetans were slaves.

    If you have a beef with the Tibetans and the Dalai Lama why not do the research and write it down and then send it to Patung? I am sure he would post it as an opinion piece!

  3. avatar Lairedion says:

    Are we talking about the relationship between Islam and Christianity or between Islam and Western civilization? In my humble opinion these are not the same.

    Western civilization has Judeo-Christian roots but also Greco-Roman and even Egyptian. Independent free thinking started to emerge a couple of centuries ago but only after WWII most Western nations developed into secular societies where in some nations Christians are outnumbered by non-religious or atheists.

    Can the non-religious expect the same tolerance Muslims and Christians are trying to show to one another in all kinds of of interfaith dialogues? Believers must accept there are loads of non-believers who do not wish to be part of any religious affiliation and just want to be left alone.

    There is common ground between Islam and Christianity. Their holy books are both violent and intolerant towards infidels. If you’re interested check this link:


    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/bible_quran.html

  4. avatar Rob says:

    The MUI might like to think it can create law but it cannot!

    Although anyone who thinks that it has anything other than perhaps some moral legitimacy (although this might be questioned in some circles) try placing a MUI Fatwa in the current recognized hierarchy of Indonesian laws and regulations as contained in Law No. 10 of 2004.

    The MUI’s function is to advise on matters of religion, in this case Islam, and provide recommendations to the government. Some of these recommendations, particularly for cynics like myself, seem to be self-serving like regulating “halal” food as having to be certified by the MUI — sounds like a money-spinner to me! As determining halal products would seem to be in the domain of the food and drug agency associated with the Department of Health.

    I was kind of hoping for a book review but now I will have to go and buy Bulliet’s book for myself and perhaps I will post a review on my blog when it is done 😀

  5. avatar sputjam says:

    Lairedion, you meant this type of violent pasage in the quran :-

    190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

    191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

    192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

    193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

    which could also meant as follows :-

    2:190 You shall confront in the path of God against those who confront against you – and there shall be no aggression. Indeed God – He dislikes those who are aggressive. 2:191 And you shall confront them wherever you are confronted – and expel them from wherever they expel you – and slandering is worse than fighting. And do not confront them by the sanctioned consented decrees – unless they confront you in it. Therefore, when they confront you – you must confront them. That would be the just response for those who do not trust. 2:192 Thus – if they refrain – then, God is forgiver – merciful. 2:193 And you must confront them until there is no more slandering. And the orderly way of life is for God alone. Therefore if they refrain – thus there shall be no more hostility – except over those who are unjust.

    Anyway, fighting is not for people who seek peace in their life, unless they are oprressed.
    People like Osama, JI and Hambali, are war mongers. They used God’s name to create mayhem. They will be answerable to the creator in the next life, as to why they speak on behalf of God, when no authority was given to them. (and why don’t they shave their beard and look clean and respectable?)
    Hamas spread chaos in order to boost their financial assets. No war, no contributors. Arafat did not agree to peace with israel as his war chest will stop the moment peace deal is reached. So his family lives in Paris in peace and luxury, while the Palestinians are stuck in gaza, west bank and refugee camps in misery.

    Some parts of islamic syariah law is taken from the bible.

  6. avatar Merah says:

    Indonesia Matters is a breath of fresh air, and the contributions made- both contributing writers and those who offer their responding opinions- are often insightful and thoughtful.

    Maybe this is not the proper forum- but the editors should note that the English as presented in Fatkhuri’s article contains many grammatical errors- so much so that sometimes the points as intended are confused.

    Given the importance of the thesis at hand, greater care should have been taken in the editing process.

    It’s understood that the writers are not paid for their contributions, and the implication appears that maybe the editorial staff is a bit stretched at being able to provide true English translations.

    It would be worthwhile for Indonesia Matters to seriously consider seeking the help of a native speaker-journalist or English teacher who could make a final edit before English-language articles written by non-native speakers are published.

    This would be of great educational service to everyone involved, and the writers would feel more secure that their thoughts and written expressions are being delivered as intended.

    Indonesia Matters has all the makings of a great publication, but it needs to address the editing and translation problems extant.

  7. avatar Mach Jabber says:

    @ sputjam
    Come to think of it, I’ve always thought that it’s interesting to read the Koran as a pantheistic scripture. The judgmental God makes sense that way. 🙂

  8. avatar Purba Negoro says:

    True.

    It is the New York Jewry and Zionsists who have a vested interest to drive a wedge between us.

    Islam recognizes Yesus Christus.
    Christiantiy recognizes Allah.

    I, along with many other Javanese of my day, was educated by the Jesuits.
    Catholic contribution to Indonesia has been vast- and this is why post Revolution, Catholic universities, hospitals and so forth have been treated most tolerably and indeed in many cases encouraged.

    It is only the Protestantism of the Dutch that the lickspittle Chinamen follow hoping to seek favour from their former Masters as well as the seditious that has no positive input to Indonesian society.

    Let us fight the true and hbistorical enemy of Islam and Christianity both- the Jew.

  9. avatar Rob says:

    Yep, when in doubt blame the Jews!

    Purba Negoro your narrow-minded racist views are part of the problem and not part of any viable solution!

    You sound like a “nasi bungkus” protestor so perhaps it is you that has a price and a very cheap one no less! It is you and people like you that do the greatest disservice to the religion you claim to practice…

  10. avatar Lairedion says:

    PB,

    Now I understand better why you are so frustrated. You adhere to the largest dictatorship of the world with its leader residing in the Vatican City. It must have been the Jesuits who raped you hard while being educated by them, a common Roman Catholic practice.

  11. avatar Robert says:

    @Purba Negoro

    Let us fight the true and historical enemy of Islam and Christianity both- the Jew.

    It is a pity you didn’t live in Europe during the 1930’s and 40’s. You would have had a great time there, you could have been involved in the oppresssion and extermination of the Jews. Purba Negoro, Adolf Eichmann’s flavor of the month! And with your Jesuit background you could have helped German warcriminals escape.

    It is pityful, you have to take out your frustrations on the Chinese now, instead of on the Jews. But do not despair, you might consider relocating to the Middle-East and join Hamas or the Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades and indulge in your wish of fighting the Jews. Here is the opportunity for you to become a real martyr. No more empty words, practice what you preach and go west!

  12. avatar gOObers says:

    purba negoro said:

    Islam recognizes Yesus Christus.

    So glad to hear that Islam recognizes Yeshua HaMashiach (Yesus Kristus)…. He is the King of Jews!!!!

  13. avatar Rob says:

    Islam recognizes Jesus as a Prophet and recognizes Christians and Jews as people of the book…is that an accurate statement?

    The idea of Islam recognizing Jesus and Christianity recognizing Allah does not quite do it for me. Simply, the above says that Islam recognizes a prophet (my understanding is that Qur’an is out on whether Jesus was divine in the sense of being the son of god) and Christians pray to the same god as Muslims do…My simplistic understanding is that Allah perfected the religion by delivering the final message to Muhammad and thus Islam supersedes all religions before it, right?

    The driving the wedge between us issue I also do not understand. Does that mean that if Jews were wiped off the face of the earth that Christians and Muslims would stand as brothers and sisters in arms?

    Purba Negoro…i would like to give you my vote for being the most likely to strap on the old C4 vest and blow yourself up in a crowded restaurant but alas I do not think you are that courageous. On the contrary, you strike me as the ABB type of individual, a real back seat general, you know the type, those that sit out of harms way and then talks young men into going off to do the dirty work that you do not have the testicular fortitude to do for yourself!

  14. avatar Purba Negoro says:

    Oh Dear poor bourgeoisie moral onanist Robby has his knickers riding up his labial cleft.

    Re the Holocaust- “there’s no business like Shoah business” was told to me by a Melbourne secular anti-Zionist Jew academic (Prof Berenson) and was a firm adherent of Noam Chomsky’s views.
    In fact at Monash University- started by the Jew Sir John Monash, there were many Jewish anti-Zionists and anti guilt-business intellectuals.
    Zionism is THE modern-day Fascism. You can even ask a Jewish socialist to confirm that one.

    Eichmann was but a petty clerk in the scheme of things.
    You know, as well as I, he was the sacrifical lamb for the more useful, yet utterly guilty ultra-Nazi zealots whisked away by your USA and UK and indirectly Canada and Australia, under Operation Paperclip and Operation Surgical.
    Such innocents as Mengele, Dr Werner von Braun, etc- not to mention the convenient ex SS commanders NATO, Mi6 and the CIA commandeered to fight the Reds- ” he may be a bastard, but he’s Our bastard”.

    Ring any bells, darling?

    Until Vatican II Council of 1962, it was firm Christian dogma that Jews were the hereditary ad historical enemy of Christianity for the ultimate insult of not recognising the Messiah, preadtory usuary etc, price gouging, hoarding, nor following their host nations’ religiously inspired customs.
    Rather like the well documented acts of the Hokkien pimps, charlatans, white-collar crims, bandits, brigands, rogues, thieves, scammers and spivs inhabiting the Malay world.

    According to my Shanghainese friend, a wu Chinese, Mr Hu, the Mandarins have numerous terms for the peasant Hokkien turncoats and they are not endearing:
    Let me share:

    changyangmeiwai= (worship the west)
    baijinzhuyi= money worship

    “there’s no money a Cantonese won’t dare earn, nothing a Beijingese say, nothing a Manchurian won’t dare do, no country a Shanghainese won’t dare go”- Chinese folk proverb.

    and these in Hokkien-
    chui kong lum par song
    chiak lu

    so perhaps your Chinese slut may understand them?

    QED Nancy.

    Rob- if you open a book without pop-ups or colouring pages, you may actually find out that Vatican 2 was very much engineered by outsiders.

    Committing suicide and killing innocents is haram and not acceptably part of any Jihad- that’s the MUI view on things.

    It’s contemptuous and insolent in the extreme to hear such an ignorant self-appointed morality guardian mcining about preaching morality yet conveniently oblivous to his own people’s very sordid history- institutionalized racism, genocide, wars for corporate gain, Nazi protecting and sympathising- not to mention war profiteering of the US and their Nazi business pals?

    Atypical Leftist bule- piss and wind full of beyond measure.

    I served in the ABRI- with distinction.
    Robbie, darling, somehow I suspect if you served it would have been as a volunteer submariner or as head peg boy for your Navy.

    again quod era demonstratum-
    PS Leftists are ignorant tossers and need a good thumping to learn them to respect their betters.

  15. avatar Rob says:

    I would not have said conveniently oblivious…recognized and accepted with regard to the evil perpetrated by my “own”!

    There is nothing in my postings that deny any institutionalized racism, genocide, and wars for corporate gain. I even acknowledge that there was Western complicity in whisking away Nazis in the post war period…But to be honest the point of my post was not to defend or criticise the excesses of my own in the past but rather to question the perpetuating of stereotypes, the hatred (perhaps warranted as I have not suffered at the hands of my own), and the lack of solutions being proferred for us to overcome these historical abuses for a better future…

    Unfortunately most peoples understanding of any of these things do not extend beyond the Council of Nicea and the Vatican II and what they might have garnered from the pages of the Da Vinci Code. I give you more credit than that as you obviously have a little bit more talent as a wordsmith than most of the posters here. It seems you have also done more research than most as well (the personal attacks on me and the characterizations of me put a smile on my face rather than offend — the personal attacks take you off point and make you look twisted and better by detracting from the position that you profer)…

    Once again I did not say the Jews were not considered to be the enemy. I am surprised you did not trot out the argument that the Jews are to be punished for the betrayal and murder of Christ. What I did question was whether we were going to continue to live this hatred or are we going to try and find real solutions to overcome this other than perpetuate institutionalized racism, genocide, and wars in the pursuit of corporate profits?

    The MUI position I guess depends on the definition of innocents…

    I guess this post was before the other one about kissing and making up or have hostilities resumed? I have been a little busy to provide the biting response that maybe required in response to the beat down I have received from you…but if hostilities have resumed then maybe I will dedicate some time this weekend to the endeavour of defending the pissant left who are nothing but a bunch of ignorant tossers in need of being taught respect for those that are better than them (presumably this means you — as a matter of interest what label should be ascribed to you?)

  16. avatar Robert says:

    @Purba Negoro,

    Re the Holocaust- “there’s no business like Shoah business” was told to me by a Melbourne secular anti-Zionist Jew academic (Prof Berenson) and was a firm adherent of Noam Chomsky’s views. In fact at Monash University- started by the Jew Sir John Monash, there were many Jewish anti-Zionists and anti guilt-business intellectuals. Zionism is THE modern-day Fascism. You can even ask a Jewish socialist to confirm that one.

    It was already clear you don’t like Jews and suffer from anti-Zionist paranaoia.

    Eichmann was but a petty clerk in the scheme of things.

    So petty clerk? Clerk? Yeah. Petty? Not really.
    He headed the Gestapo department of Jewish affairs and kept the trains rolling to the concentration camps. He was the architect of the Final Solution and in this capacity reported directly to SS-General Heydrich. He may not have been a high-ranking officer (lieutenant-colonel) but he played an important role in the extermination of the Jews.
    And the fact he downplayed his role by stating: I was only small gear in a big machinery, sounds logical for a person facing death penalty. And calling a person who played such a pivotal in the extermination-machine, a scapegoat is just ludicrous.
    I could have used Mengele as well, Von Braun not really, you don’t appear to be much of a rocket scientist. I apologise for hurting your feelings, I didn’t know you were that much in love with Eichmann. Poor little Adolf Eichmann, being scapegoated by them darned Zionists!

    It’s contemptuous and insolent in the extreme to hear such an ignorant self-appointed morality guardian mcining about preaching morality yet conveniently oblivous to his own people’s very sordid history- institutionalized racism, genocide, wars for corporate gain, Nazi protecting and sympathising- not to mention war profiteering of the US and their Nazi business pals?

    Atypical Leftist bule- piss and wind full of beyond measure.

    Keep the sh*t flowing: Operation Diarrhoea!

    I served in the ABRI- with distinction.

    Do they know that word then? What did you there? I can’t imagine you being a man of action, more a man of the (endless flowing) words. Probably you served as a doormat and got shagged on a frequent base by your buddies, probably in a distinctive manner. Hence the frustrated nature of your posts.

    Leftists are ignorant tossers and need a good thumping to learn them to respect their betters.

    You are right, we should more listen to you Purba, fountain of wisdom, Zionist-thumper and Chinese-crusher extraordinaire. Wise man, keep the posts flowing, so we can comfort ourselves in the warmth of the words of your wisdom.

  17. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:

    Purba Negoro said

    I, along with many other Javanese of my day, was educated by the Jesuits.

    This explains a lot, certainly the elitist attitude. Anyway, an education by the Jesuits is still preferable to one in Al-Mukmin or Al-Azhar. At least they don’t teach that earthquakes and tsunamis are caused by women wearing tanktops and tight jeans instead of proper muslimah dress.

  18. avatar TV Buff says:

    I think it is not possible if Christians and Muslim have much in common. Why? because we are all human. I know we are differ in terms of religion but in side our heart we are all the same. We have the same way of caring to other people or showing our love for them. We have the same way how we treasure and respect our Gods, family and friends. One example is, Muslim believe that men and women must be respected equally which is in reality and with our generation today Men and Women must be treated equally. I mean everyone has their own right to be live the way they should be. We are all equal, no matter what is your nationality or religion it’s just a matter of “respect” for each other.

  19. avatar Belgian Muslim says:

    Assalamualaikum.

    yea..i totally agree with tvbuff on that one. One World, One Human Race, One God, One love, One Heart, One… Bible and Taurat and Al-Quran all witness that the first Human in this world was Adam and than Hawa(=Eve). So we are all from the same family tree.

    Before i became Muslim… i believed in nothing…
    i kept it open honestly cos nobody knows the truth.. it all happened millions of years ago.
    Until i found Islam, all what i didn’t like about religion because of the Church, the endless wars, the bloodshed faded away when i read the translation of the Al-Quran.
    I read the Bible before, it was confusing and contradicting but full of nice stories teaching us a wisdom and noble morality. Like going to the shrink or doctor but no need to pay. But that was the Bible and it was making me feel that it was a story, made by men, to control other men.
    So i did recite a prayer in my grandmothers house every time before our food, she teached us few. One i still remember and a nice one actually truly praising the Lord Almighty One.
    When she took me and my siblings to church the first time i knew i didn’t want this.
    I didn’t want the blood of Jezus Christ or a piece of his body.
    I didn’t understand the priest his preaching in a dead language.
    I didn’t want to pray to statues of that noble Prophet from that Bible dressed in his underwear bleeding on a cross…what a way to remember some one??
    I didn’t want to go Church anymore!
    Why would some one want to confess their sins to another human being(priest or ulama or pope), when it is to God that we will all return and to God that we pray and to God that we beg for forgiveness. A priest preaches, he doesn’t forgive you because you never wronged the man. You wronged your own soul, which belongs to God, so to God you owe thanks and praises.

    At one time when i was a teenager i didn’t believe in God, as if i never believed.
    Until i read Al-Quran, it made me cry to read the truth so clear and so pure. So beautiful and full with explanation and teachings. I’m thankful to God and to my Prophets, all of them.
    May you all find the truth. May you all be guided by your Lord, the Lord of Creation, Lord of the Universe, Master of Mankind and Jinn.

    Wassalamualaikum

  20. avatar Oigal says:

    Until i found Islam, all what i didn’t like about religion because of the Church, the endless wars, the bloodshed faded away when i read the translation of the Al-Quran.

    BM must have found a peacenik’s version of the Al-Quran, the one i have has no shortage of bloodshed, wars, death n destruction although I have not done a litre to litre comparision I’d reckon both books do pretty well in blood letting.

    I didn’t understand the priest his preaching in a dead language.

    but happy with the universal language of Arabic?

    I didn’t want to pray to statues of that noble Prophet from that Bible dressed in his underwear bleeding on a cross…what a way to remember some one??

    But happy to circle a sqaure box in a desert?

    Not a big believer myself but why does a conviction of faith by the believers so often need to be proven by the ridiculing of someone others faith? Seems to indicate a fairly insecure and immature outlook. All religions are stunningly outrageous affronts to commonsense to outsiders, so for a believer to make fun of anothers articles of faith is absurb.

  21. avatar David says:

    Preview button Oigal and spend like at least one millisecond thinking about spelling before you hit that submit button, every one of your spelling mistakes is a stab in my heart, think of it at that way…..

  22. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Very Seksi, Mr. Patoengs,

    Details maketh the man oftentimes. No direspect intended – this post – to Mr. The Oigals.

  23. avatar Oigal says:

    Ouch…ok alreedy 🙂 just teasing

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