Modern Day Witch Hunt

Apr 21st, 2008, in Opinion, by Guest Writer

View the original article here.

46 Comments on “Modern Day Witch Hunt”

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Rob Says:
April 29th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Violence and murder in the name of God…

So perhaps it is true:

“kill ‘em all and let God sort ‘em out!”

You can get the slogan on a t-shirt if you want here.

Which god I guess is something we will not know until we get there! Assuming that god exists!
timdog Says:
April 29th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
dewa – I am not talking about some “historic war” with atrocities committed by both sides; I am talking about the current situation in modern India where it is often not a nice place to be a Muslim or a Christian…

The link you provide is not history; it is partisan propoganda, and any “facts” it contains are thus devalued. Bad history is very easy to spot, and that is bad history. And in any case, as I said, I am not talking about “historic” rights and wrongs; I am talking about the current position of minorities in Hindu-dominated India.

Here is a depressing report from Human Rights Watch:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/indiachr/christians8-01.htm#TopOfPage
It deals with, amongst many other unpleasant things, the reconversions. As we are very fond of shrieking about the plight of Christians in Indonesia I thought this report might be of interest…

The “Hindu golden age” as proclaimed by the Hindu Chauvinists is not taken seriously by historians, and the attempts to claim the whole of Asia as a former “Hindu cradle” are palpably, provably wrong… There is quite simply no evdidence for a great pan-Asian Hindu realm (though my favourite Hindu-chauvinist claim is that the kaaba in Mecca is actually a shivalingam!). Hindu Chauvinists claim Iran, Afghanistan and Tibet as former Hindu realms… Pre-Islam Iran was Zoroastrian, not Hindu; pre-Buddhism the people of Tibet followed a non-Hindu religion called Bon (a few Bon people remain). In Afghanistan, in the HINDUKUSH no less, the people followed their own, local religion. They were termed the Kalash, and remained in the area now known as Nuristan until the turn of the 20th century when they were forcibly converted by the then ruler of Afghanistan Abdur Rahman. However, a few thousand Kalash people remain in three remote valleys in Chitral on the Pakistani side of the border – I’ve been there several times; I can assure you that they are not Hindu (though there are some Zoroastrian elements to their faith).
dewaratugedeanom Says:
May 5th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Janma

Dewa, I am afraid that the hindu’s in india are quite violent…

timdog

dewa – I am not talking about some “historic war” with atrocities committed by both sides; I am talking about the current situation in modern India where it is often not a nice place to be a Muslim or a Christian…

…or even a Buddhist or a fellow Hindu. But both of you are right. Same thing happens in Sri Lanka between Tamil Tigers and regulars. Depressing.

Hindu philosophy blames this on the fact that we are living in the Kali Yuga, after Kali, the name of the goddess of death. Encyclopaedia Britannica tells us that a yuga in Hindu cosmology is an age of mankind. Developed from Puranic myths each yuga is progressively shorter than the preceding one, corresponding to a decline in the moral and physical state of humanity. Four such yugas (called Krta, Treta, Dvapara, and Kali after throws of an Indian game of dice) make up the mahayuga (“great yuga”), and 2,000 mahayugas make up the basic cosmic cycle, the kalpa (eon). The first yuga (Krta) was an age of perfection, lasting 1,728,000 years. The fourth and most degenerate yuga (Kali) began in 3102 BC and will last 432,000years. At the close of the Kali yuga, the world will be destroyed, to be re-created after a period of quiescence as the cycle resumes again. In Hindu astronomy, a yuga is also a unit of time consisting of five solar years.

However, I still have serious reservations about these so-called reconversions, given the fact that Hinduism doesn’t consider itself as a religion an sich, but rather as a composite of diverse doctrines, cults, and ways of life. You can be a Catholic and yet practise Hinduism. You can be a Jew and yet practise Hinduism. You can even be a Muslim and yet practise Hinduism. You cannot really convert to Hinduism in the strict sense of the word. There are innumerable instances of people living in India, who profess different religions and yet follow Hindu Dharma. Several followers of great Indian sages asked their gurus about conversion. The single and unique answer they all received was – remain with the religion you belong to and follow your religion honestly. For example, a Catholic was asked to remain a catholic and follow Jesus Christ’s teachings sincerely. Hinduism asks each one of us to search for the Divine within us. It asks us to do this in whatever way suits us. The essence is to capture the Truth within each one of us. We are all potentially divine, and each one of us has the capacity to realize this divinity within us.
Purba Negoro Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 1:21 am
Nonsense.

Ahmadiyah is an alien Sect.
It is a Pakistani SECT.

It is not consistent with Panca Sila- it is not an offically recognized religion by virtue of our 1945 Constiution.

The criminal, civil and constitutional law is very straightforward. If you do not like our laws- kindly leave instead of seeking to bend them to your deviances.

All Ahmadiyah are traitors to Nusantara and Islam.

Destroy Ahmadiyah in the name of Indonesia.
Janma Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Actually burning, and destroying are against the law too PN…. how you gonna get around that since the law means so much to you? Maybe if it doesn’t suit you, you should move to the middle east where you can stone or rape and pillage to your hearts content, and the law will uphold you.
Purba Negoro Says:
May 6th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Janma – If a policeman was to say he is going to destroy a racketeering ring- is it taken in the literal sense?

No.

What has the Middle East got to do with upholding well documented Criminal, Civic and Constitutional law?

You should be proud Indonesia is taking such actions against these dangerous sects and acting to protect the SECULARISM of Indonesia.

Religious freedom is not a Constitutional Right in Indonesia. This is very clear.
If you don’t like this- leave. Exit Door is wide open.
Tony Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 12:37 am
As a student of Indonesian Law (from the professional sense)–religious freedom is not part of the Indonesian Constitution–if a sect is inciting violence or has the potential to do so then yes, by all means get rid of them.

The reason being is because, while Black Americans used religion as a solace towards oppression–religion did not use them to attain great wealth for yet, another oppressor. They did not become pawns in a violent revolution that left them with a new set of masters. Today, in the USA, blacks are still discriminated against–no doubt. However, they still have a chance for a better life than if they lived in Sierra Leone or the Congo.

If this sect is not banned, the poor of Indonesia will be used as pawns in a bullsh*t Jihad and when all is said an done–they will be at the bottom, again, and this time they will be enslaved–so what will they have gained??

Anytime, anyone, uses religion to fight corruption/injustice–you can bet your ass that the true losers will be the poor–case closed.

It is time for Indonesia to rise up and be the nation it is capable of being!
Purba Negoro Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 2:00 am
Bravo Tony. Superb argument.
janma Says:
May 7th, 2008 at 9:25 am
I have no problem if Indonesia wants to ban the sect…. if it’s the law then no problem, but the law should be excercised with the same enthusiasm when the mainstream use violence against others, even a sect.
Muchamad Minako-sukamito Says:
May 8th, 2008 at 12:18 am
Murphy wrote:

The problem of calling them Muslims is not simple to explain. But it’s probably parallel with the problem of calling somebody a Christian if he believes that The Christ, The Messiah mentioned in the Bible is not the one born in Bethlehem 2 millenia ago, but somebody else who was born in Pakistan one thousand years later.

I am afraid you are also a victim of the propaganda that Ahmadiyyas do not beleive Muhammad as Prophet. The issue is delibrately created by a bunch of Ulemas, most probably imported from Paksitan. Using of Prophet Muhammad’s name as a licence to kill, burn, mutilate, destroy has been the best tool for those Ulemas. Ahmadiyyas are around for 100 years now! what made Ulema to push for the ban now? Yes I agree their are hidden agendas.

We, Ahmadiyyas do beleive Prophet Muhammad just like anyother muslim, the most exalted and leader of all the Prophets. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is nothing but Muhammad’s servant foretold by Muhammad himself. All sects of Muslims do beleive in coming of a Prophet after Muhammad in form of Jesus son of Marry and Imam Mahdi. Will all be banned?
Rob Says:
May 8th, 2008 at 2:19 am
Tony…

I would hope that Indonesia attains all that it can be! I am not hoping for failure but I am also not advocating that the house cleaning that some are keen to see happen be one that is bloody. This is in spite of the idea that the tree of democracy must sometime be fertilized with both the blood of tyrants and patriots alike.

My question has always been is the banning of religious orders (even where we label them sects) the way to go? In between tearing me a new orifice or two, PN vehemently disagrees with much (perhaps all) of what I believe in. This is democracy in action and the exercise of his right to disagree.

I am not sure what Constitution you are reading but most legal scholars would tend to suggest that there is a guarantee of freedom of religious practice. The law though gets somewhat confusing as to what this can mean in terms of other legislation which limits your choice to one of five or six. As has been pointed out previously the Resident Identification Cards (KTP) require an “approved” religion to be listed which is indicative of there not being an absolute freedom to practice whatever religion you choose.

Ahmadiyya would presumably be being banned to ensure that there is no ongoing breach of the criminal code as it regulates blasphemy and presumably acitivities that incite violence and otherwise disturb law and order (peace and security)…

I, personally, do not think Ahmadiyya should be banned. However, I am also of the opinion that if the law permits such an action to occur then so be it! It is then up to those of us who do not agree with the law to lobby for its amendment. It is then at this point the academic debate starts in earnest (by the way PN academic debate is not about whether my knickers are running up some cleft that I have or whether I am some limp-wristed left leaning onanist or whatever other choice labels you throw at me)…

But open, frank, and trasparent debate is always fun!
timdog Says:
May 8th, 2008 at 7:08 am
Dewa:
Hinduism doesn’t consider itself as a religion an sich, but rather as a composite of diverse doctrines, cults, and ways of life
You are right of course (this is partly why I find it impossible not to be gently mocking of over-earnest Westerners who go to India with a backpack full of preconceptions and insist on “converting” to “Hinduism” – but that’s another story…)
The problem is not people like you. The the disturbingly fascistic RSS, the VHP, and the thoroughly obnoxious Shiv Sena certainly regard Hinduism as a religion in the conventional fashion; and they certainly regard India’s non-Hindus (including Buddhists and Sikhs – though Christians and Muslims receive more ire as followers of “foreign” religions) as traitors who ought to return to their true identity – or leave…
The “reconversions” are well documented.
All religions are pereverted and misrepresented by their most aggressively ardant followers…
Janma Says:
May 8th, 2008 at 9:56 am
All sects of Muslims do beleive in coming of a Prophet after Muhammad in form of Jesus son of Marry and Imam Mahdi.

errr…… didn’t Jesus come before Muhammad?
Muchamad Minako-sukamito Says:
May 9th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Janma,

Yes, Jesus did come 600 Years before Muhammad. What generally muslims beleive is that Prophet MUhammad have foretold a second coming of Jesus after him in latter days. Ahmadi Muslims interpret this prophecy as ‘a person having jesus like attributes’ will appear.

I mean common sense:)
blong Says:
May 10th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
How About America, Inggris with infation in Iraq ? Are legal or murderer ? Please be objective
Shame! at Spruiked Says:
May 12th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
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