Religious Cults & Religious Freedoms

Mar 17th, 2008, in IM Posts, by

Pressure on the government to enact special laws against religious cults, blasphemy trials in Jambi, and the United Nations showing interest.

Laws

On March 7th at the Islamic Book Fair in Jakarta Kholil Ridwan of the Clerics' Council (Majelis Ulama Indonesia, MUI), while discussing a newly released book called "Nabi-Nabi Palsu" (False Prophets), said the government needed to make a law against deviant Islamic sects.

There should be a special law for this, so that sects can't develop.

He said the Department of Religion should take the lead in preparing such a law, and once it was promulgated if there were any reports of new sects then the police could take quick action, under the authority of the law and without needing to wait for a fatwa from the MUI.

He said there were a lot of Islamic sects these days, like Al Qiyadah, Salamullah (Lia Aminudin), and Ahmadiyah, and in the time of Muhammad the founders of these sects would have been executed. In Malaysia they had a law against trying to convert people to other religions, as well. [1]

New Model Islam

Meanwhile in Jambi province four men have gone on trial for membership of a group called New Model Islam (Islam Model Baru (IMB)).

Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) leader in Jambi, Professor Sulaiman Abdullah, says the MUI issued a fatwa against the group as they were clearly heretical. The trial is ongoing. [2]

United Nations

And legal eagle Rob Baiton says the issue of religious freedom in Indonesia is likely to be raised at the 7th plenary session (3rd - 28th March 2008) of the United Nations Human Rights Council in Geneva. [3]


25 Comments on “Religious Cults & Religious Freedoms”

  1. avatar Janma says:
    March 17th, 2008 at 11:00 am

    In Malaysia they had a law against trying to convert people to other religions, as well. [1]

    Strange how it’s illegal to convert muslims, also in aceh such a scene made about attending christmas parties even, but in other countries Muslims are trying to convert christians and others by the thousands and that’s ok?

  2. avatar Molisan Tono says:
    March 17th, 2008 at 12:12 pm

    What are you expect from religion politics? It’s dirty mind on “God’s” behalf…
    muslim to christian.. they called it kafir and musyrik… and worth to be stone.

    So if you’re looking justise in this country… my friend, belive me.. let’s God do His way.

    Talking about aceh, I think they are planning some big chaos next 2009 election.

    Watch careful fellow christian.

  3. avatar Lairedion says:
    March 17th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    Yawn… the amount of fatwas issued by the MUI is really getting tiring.

  4. avatar Lairedion says:
    March 17th, 2008 at 7:50 pm

    Molisan Tono said:

    So if you’re looking justise in this country”¦ my friend, belive me.. let’s God do His way.

    Watch careful fellow christian.

    Often I fail to see the difference between Muslims and Christians. Always pointing to God, refusing to take responsibility themselves and assuming it’s just an Islam vs. Christianity thing.

    What about the other non-Muslims/non-Christians, atheists and agnostics? Are they less important, less human?

  5. avatar Agusto says:
    March 18th, 2008 at 5:00 am

    What is this guy talking about, “new model islam”?. What ever happened to the old islam that good old moh used to practiced and good muslims have to emulate? This is an insult to islam, it is blasphemous, they are worth beheading!

    Dear Lairedion,

    If you are not a muslim and you do not belong to the “people of the book” then you have to convert to islam or risk being killed, that is your only choice. You don’t have the luxury to be dhimmitude. Check the koran.

  6. avatar Oigal says:
    March 18th, 2008 at 10:04 am

    There should be a special law for this, so that sects can’t develop

    Fully concur..they should have this law in years ago..

    ….actually thousands of years ago.. that way we could still have those really cool Roman and Norse gods..you know the ones that knew how to party, drink wine, copulate etc etc..

    I mean seriously “Thor” that’s a good look..

  7. avatar Rob says:
    March 18th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    IM thanks for the shout out as a ‘legal eagle’ appreciate it and I now hope I can live up to any expectations that this might generate…

    Problems…

    1. Indonesian Constitution – Does it or does it not guarantee freedom of religion? If it does then the Constitutional Court is going to be between ‘a rock and a hard place’ because on a strict legal interpretation then any law or regulation purporting to ban the practice of any faith would on face value be unconstitutional…

    Those that argue that no such guarantee exists generally point to the Criminal Code (KUHP) that has often been interpreted to ban deviant sects.

    2. What constitutes a sect…there already is Sunni, Shi’a, and Sufism…possibly Ahmadiyya (which has a following much broader than just Indonesia). But more importantly how does one classify the differing interpretations or emphasis within the various schools themselves. If one examines the Sunni tradition in Indonesia you have two views on the practice of Islam,namely: Muhammadiyah and Nahdlatul Ulama. Going beyond the borders of Indonesia there are more conservative interpretations such as those offered by the followers of Ibn Abdul Wahhab (Wahhabiya) or Salafism which suggests that Wahhabiya is a sub-sect of ultra conservative followers of Salafism.

    Gus Dur has published on the need for ‘moderate’ Islam to be on the look out for these ultra-orthodox interpretations of Islam…

    I do not purport to be an expert on Islam or the practice of the faith. My concern as a citizen is who has the right to dictate what faith I believe in or the manner that I practice it? To this end the power of the MUI whether it is real or merely a facade for old men pretending to exert more power than influence than they really do is an ongoing debate in both public and private circles…

    There are probably a few other ‘problems’ that I could highlight but in consideration of the length of the post so far I will stop with these two. I hope I haven’t embarrassed myself as someone lacking in knowledge of the issues…

  8. avatar sputjam says:
    March 18th, 2008 at 1:33 pm

    My personal opinion is that, the deeper a person indulge in religion, the further he strays from God.
    people who are at Peace(Bliss) are those who do not beleive in religion, but have faith in God. They are observant on how God’s creation in the heavens and the world works, and live in harmony within it.

    Hence despite islam being mentioned as a religion of Peace, the followers did exactly the oposite.
    Despite the Christians saying that Jesus spread Love, their followers did exactly opposite.
    As for the commmunist and dictators, their leaders were considered as God, and the mayhem created by these poeple can be seen everywhere.

  9. avatar Riyoz says:
    March 18th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

    hmmm…I sure hope this doesn’t amount to what the Catholics did in Europe during the European dark ages..that is the infamous book burnings and inhuman inquisitions….and this dark history is precisley what gives the illuminati’s renaissance movement a big push…..hope muslims learn from this sad history and do all they could not to repeat it….there’s got to be a better way to handle all those deviants, such as sitting down and have a discussion with them…..use of force is obviously won’t do any good….

  10. avatar Riyoz says:
    March 18th, 2008 at 1:53 pm

    “Hence despite islam being mentioned as a religion of Peace, the followers did exactly the oposite.
    Despite the Christians saying that Jesus spread Love, their followers did exactly opposite.”

    hmmm….is it possible that it’s the people, not the religion ?…for to know that a religion is a peaceful religion or not you may have to study it’s core teachings directly from it’s source….that is the holy books….coz’ there are many, many bad and good people in this planet regardless of what their beliefs/religions are….and we cannot judge beliefs/religions just by looking at the actions of the adherents…..

    just because a man who has a very bad driving skills, crashed while driving a ferrari, this doesn’t mean that a ferrari is not a good sport car does it ?….and I think, the same principles apply for religions/beliefs….

  11. avatar Shorty says:
    March 18th, 2008 at 8:32 pm

    valid point riyoz. the compounding problem is that these ‘bad drivers’ believe we all should drive ferraris, and that they have the god given right to crash into anyone driving something else.

  12. avatar Shorty says:
    March 18th, 2008 at 8:35 pm

    ps. people secure in their faith don’t fear, and can tolerate different beliefs.

  13. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    March 19th, 2008 at 4:08 pm

    Riyoz said

    just because a man who has a very bad driving skills, crashed while driving a ferrari, this doesn’t mean that a ferrari is not a good sport car does it ?”¦.and I think, the same principles apply for religions/beliefs”¦.

    But Ferraris, and in fact most cars, are constantly scrutinized to become better and safer while some religions – and you certainly know which one I mean – are not allowed to change because some prophet once proclaimed that his book was perfect and detailed for all times and that no one could come after him.
    Would you still drive an obsolete car only because it’s brand name is Ferrari?

    Beter put it on the scrap heap of history.

  14. avatar Riyoz says:
    March 19th, 2008 at 8:29 pm

    “ps. people secure in their faith don’t fear, and can tolerate different beliefs”

    Yap, you’re absolutely right…I agree…:)

  15. avatar Riyoz says:
    March 19th, 2008 at 8:31 pm

    “But Ferraris, and in fact most cars, are constantly scrutinized to become better and safer while some religions – and you certainly know which one I mean – are not allowed to change because some prophet once proclaimed that his book was perfect and detailed for all times and that no one could come after him.
    Would you still drive an obsolete car only because it’s brand name is Ferrari?

    Beter put it on the scrap heap of history.”

    obsolete ? is it ?….:)

  16. avatar Shorty says:
    March 19th, 2008 at 9:34 pm

    dewaratugedeanom, riyoz….scrapping the ferrari doesn’t solve the problem………today’s ferrari is a vastly different machine to yesterday’s, yet it owes it’s provenance to it’s predecessors. intelligent people modified and built on it’s success.

    the problem is not with the car, but with some of the drivers.

  17. avatar Riyoz says:
    March 19th, 2008 at 10:10 pm

    “dewaratugedeanom, riyoz”¦.scrapping the ferrari doesn’t solve the problem”¦”¦”¦today’s ferrari is a vastly different machine to yesterday’s, yet it owes it’s provenance to it’s predecessors. intelligent people modified and built on it’s success.

    the problem is not with the car, but with some of the drivers.”

    again, I agree….and perhaps those ‘bad drivers’ didn’t even bother to read the manual book that comes with the ferrari thoroughly and carefully….:)

  18. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    March 20th, 2008 at 6:36 am

    again, I agree”¦.and perhaps those ‘bad drivers’ didn’t even bother to read the manual book that comes with the ferrari thoroughly and carefully”¦.:)

    I have to disagree. Anyone who would fork out that kind of money would be a car enthusiastic or fanatic. Of course he would read the manual thoroughly and follow the instruction to the dot.

    But hey, we are not talking about Ferrari. We are talking about a dodgy mechanic who build and imitate an already existing prototype. He claimed he is licensed to perfect and improve the original prototype. His manual clearly tells you to knock every pedestrian who do not admire his car, and side swipe other ‘inferior’ vehicles. The ‘bad drivers’ are certainly not to be blamed. They are only following instructions and doing what their vehicle do best.

  19. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    March 20th, 2008 at 4:50 pm

    Aluang said

    He claimed he is licensed to perfect and improve the original prototype.

    But still who would want to drive a car – whatever its name or make is – that according to its manual is not allowed to be repaired or improved upon, only because the mechanic who has built it said so?

    I wouldn’t.

  20. avatar Lairedion says:
    March 20th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

    @Mas Aluang,

    Your explanation is correct but not complete yet.

    Replicating the lifestyle of the dodgy mechanic and following additional handbooks are required to understand the manual. Furthermore a complete set of traffic rules and fines has been established for those drivers violating the manual, lifestyle and handbooks.

    But I’d rather walk than driving such a car…

  21. avatar Shorty says:
    March 20th, 2008 at 9:39 pm

    let’s drop the ferrari analogy before we all vanish up our tailpipes.

    do you want people to respect your beliefs? then respect theirs.

    let new/alternative/confronting ideas be judged by the community at large – not by those interested in self perpetuation. let’s also ensure that those holding such a view/voice are able to speak uninhibited and without censure.

    always remember, no-one has yet come back. maybe god if she exists, is left handed,
    ugly, coloured/bule/ christian/lesbian/islam/non virgin/buddhist/homosexual……………

    b4 we rush to legislation, think about the wisdom of pancasila, think about the true meaning of demokrasi

  22. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    March 22nd, 2008 at 8:10 pm

    Shorty said

    do you want people to respect your beliefs? then respect theirs.

    Why should people respect my beliefs? What if my beliefs are totally wrong?
    This kind of political correctness doesn’t bring us any step further. Beliefs are just what they are: speculations without proof. Only the proven truth deserves respect.

    An Inquisitor condemning a supposed witch to the stake probably did so because of the sincerity of his belief that her intimacy with the Devil presented a danger for the Church and society. SS’ers of Nazi-Germany who took part in the Holocaust and transported Jews and Gipsies to the gas-chambers probably also did it because of their belief in the supremacy of their own race and because their Führer said so.
    Does it mean we all have to respect these beliefs for belief’s sake? Do you really think that by respecting theirs they will respect yours?

  23. avatar Lairedion says:
    March 22nd, 2008 at 9:10 pm

    do you want people to respect your beliefs? then respect theirs.

    Frankly I don’t respect adult humans at all with their crap organized religions and thirst for power.

    We were given the power and brains to protect and guard our beautiful planet but we have failed big time and I feel the organized religions (here we go again, especially those notorious three Middle Eastern) are a major contribution to our failure. God/Allah and his prophets, they should all be held accountable for crimes against nature.

  24. avatar Riyoz says:
    March 22nd, 2008 at 10:26 pm

    “do you want people to respect your beliefs? then respect theirs.”

    quite simple isn’t it ?…:)

  25. avatar Riyoz says:
    March 22nd, 2008 at 11:37 pm

    “But hey, we are not talking about Ferrari. We are talking about a dodgy mechanic who build and imitate an already existing prototype. He claimed he is licensed to perfect and improve the original prototype. His manual clearly tells you to knock every pedestrian who do not admire his car, and side swipe other ‘inferior’ vehicles. The ‘bad drivers’ are certainly not to be blamed. They are only following instructions and doing what their vehicle do best.”

    this can’t be right ? how do you expect people to admire the beauty of your ferrari if you knock, run them over and kill them ? only smooth, skillful and ethical driving will earn their respects and admirations…:)..keep it cool, man…



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