Fitna by Geert Wilders

Mar 7th, 2008, in IM Posts, Opinion, by Lairedion

View the original article here.

415 Comments on “Fitna by Geert Wilders”

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Shloka Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 4:52 pm
I found this lovely poem by Rumi

The Carnal Soul

” Your self (nafs) is the mother of all idols:
the material idol is a snake, but the spiritual idol is a dragon.
‘Tis easy to break an idol, very easy;
to regard the self as easy to subdue is folly, folly.
O son, if you would know the form of the self,
read the description of Hell with its seven gates.
From the self at every moment issues an act of deceit;
and in each of those deceits a
hundred Pharaohs and their hosts are drowned.”

Thus the material idols is a smake, but of course the spiritual idol is much worse, a dragon. Here, Sufism interprets “idols” as bad qualities, and breaking of idols as destroying one’s bad qualities. This is a very nice way of interpreting, I guess.

I’ll try to apply the principles of Sufism to Hitler’s Mein Kampf. In the Mein Kampf Hitler says, “I’m convinced I’m acting on behalf of the Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I’m doing the Lord’s work.”

If only Nazi could interpret the term “Jews” as their own inner wicked qualities, a Holocaust might’ve been prevented. Unfortunately most couldn’t and Jews had to pay with their lives. Likewise the Taliban couldn’t interpret idols as “inner qualities” and sought to use the plain meaning of the terms, leading to the destruction of a World Heritage Site.:-(

I’m not sure which one is misinterpretation.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:04 pm
@ Barry Prima,

I have yet to read your Mohammad novel but I will response to this one:

I for one do believe in the wali songo,(most properbly because iwant to)and you are not the first i have met who claims descedent from the.Hell from one side of the family i myself might have been desendent from them.!

Huh? Both sides of the families descended from the same family trees. White Boy needs to learn a bit about Javanese culture, or Asian culture in general because commenting as an expert in this forum. Incest is haram to Brown men in case you don’t know.
Lairedion Says:
August 24th, 2008 at 12:56 am
Good explanation, dewa. It pretty much sums up my view as well. I’m sick and tired of this vain talk about the existence of God.

Why put stock in religion? By the word religion we have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of God. We have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves (the children, the poor, wildlife and nature), and goodness. The decisions you make every day will determine if you are a good person – or not.

I agree with dewa, we cannot prove God exists or not but the existence of God is completely irrelevant. Self-understanding is the key to find solutions for our problems.
barry prima Says:
August 24th, 2008 at 5:49 am
dewaratugedeanom:
I know you did not direct your statements to me, as it seems you want to avoid debating with a muslim who actually has the ability to project a good argument, but I will respond to them anyway, as I am sure you will read them.
I do acknowledge that despite your anti -islamic stance, unlike Shokla you still actually have some measure of objectivity left.

However to explain Being an sich I have to revert to an unfathomable Absolute Reality from which Everything (the phenomenal universe and its content) emanates and forms a part.

SOUNDS LIKE ALLAH TO ME.

Say: He is Allah,
The One and Only.
“Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
“He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him.”
[Al-Qur’an 112:1-4]

“No vision can grasp Him
But His grasp is over
All vision: He is
Above all comprehension,
Yet is acquainted with all things.”
[Al-Qur’an 6:103]

The fact you have failed to see something that’s so obviously parallels you own thoughts in the quran shows how blind you have been in your study of it.

The quran does not however limit god to his impersonal nature it also (in the interest of preserving his unity) articulates him in his personal nature. For if everything does emanate from the one, how can the emanation also not be the one and thus be unfathomable?

The infinite can be fathomable (although there is no such word) by way of its imprint on the finite world.
That is what is meant by Allah cannot be known by speculation but by referring to his his ayats (signs) in the phenomenal world, most precisely in your own selves.

By reducing god to an abstraction and failing to see his interdependency and objectification in the world, including through religion, you are avoiding the issue somewhat, whilst simultaneously hiding behind an illusionary idea of objectivity.

Sorry if this sounds offensive, but it is rather embarassing for someone who uses the symbol of yin yang as his avatar, to fail to grasp its most elementary meaning.

2

I notice that Everything isn’t static but evolving. Everything being a part of the Absolute Reality, I suppose this Reality is also participating in this evolution.

Evolution as you describe it here is subject to the understanding that time itself has an absolute quality to it, which is mysticism is generally regarded as an illusionary concept, esp in Taoism. Time is a phenomenon that the absolute cannot be limited or defined by, otherwise it would not be absolute, would it?

Time only exist in a world that is relative. (Although the relativity of the world is valid only for people in it,not the people who have transcended it, or the absolute itself)
Static/evolving,…good/evil….you can’t help philosophising in such terms to define something that is outside of duality, separation/5 elements/the 10000 things.

3. This ‘Everything’ seems to function according to certain ‘Laws’ and ‘Principles’.

LAWS AND PRINCIPLES MEANS REWARD/PUNISHMENT/KARMA..THEReBY YOU INVALIDATE YOUR FINAL POINT OF NO JUDGMENT BY WAY OF POINT 2.
You have nice ideas buy you do not partake in the so called evolution you talk about, because you do not take them to their conclusion, merely abandoning them when they come up against something you don’t like.

These universal Laws and Principles give rise to concepts of entities that govern Everything. These concepts are usually called gods or deities.

So Allah (or islam if you prefer) must thus be the manifestation of one of those deities, right? What else can he be according to you own analogy?
According to the quran Allah is the most merciful but also the avenger (his mercy overrides his wrath, being the finalizing formula). So he must be more than one deity, considering his 99 attribute (which also symbolises totality/forever in chinese numerology) he can only be logically, according to your own criteria be the absolute itself, regardless of the fact that you wish that god didn’t have these attributes. The fact that you only ignoring the totality of god as articulated by himself in the quran is a reflection of your own limitations, not the qurans.

If Everything is already submitted to these deities, I see no reason why they, or the Absolute Reality they represent, should send messages with moral orders to individuals who call themselves prophets.

If everything is already submitted (which indeed it is) that does not necessarily exclude the actual sending of messengers, in fact it is only by sending messengers or prophets that this submission is actualised or evidenced. If their is no need to send prophets then their is no need to create the universe either. Unless as god says in al quran:
I was a hidden treasure, and I wanted to be known.
It is only to manifest the quality of submission (which by necessity must exist in order to manifest freedom) that we are given moral sensibilities.

Your’e trying to make the absolute amoral but then rejecting his manifestation in the quran on moral grounds that by the very definition you use, reject his absoluteness?
Also if you limit prophets to moral characters only (and thereby ignoring their avartaric nature) then it creates certain problems in your metaphysics. (but that’s going off on a tangent)

By doing so the Absolute Reality would prove itself to be a fallacy because it implies that Everything is not completely under the control of its Laws and Principles (deities). Instead of an Absolute Reality it becomes a lesser Reality that can be contested by not following its orders. It is no longer absolute and hence a contradiction in terms.

SOMETHING CANNOT BE ABSOLUTE,UNLESS IT HAS THE POTENTIAL AND EXERCISES THAT POTENTIAL TO BE LESS THAN ABSOLUTE. THE ONLY WAY IT CAN EMPHASISE ITS ABSOLUTENESS IS DEPENDENT ON ITS MANIFESTATION OF NON ABSOLUTENESS .

There is no divinity (or reality or absolute) (la-ila-ha-ilalah) except the sole divinity (or reality or absolute) and muhammed is the messenger (the spokesman, intermediary,manifestation or symbol) muhammed-dur-rusullullah.

The sahadah is making two assertions, two certitudes, two levels of reality and their inherent interdependence which solve the problem of dichotomy of existence.

THE SHAHADAH AND THE QURAN PROVIDE THE MOST COMPLETE ARTICULATION OF YIN YANG METAPHYSICS IN EXISTENCE.

The first of these certainties is god alone is and the second is “all things are attached to god”. In other words nothing is is absolutely evident save the absolute, then following this truth: All manifestation and so all that IS relative is attached to the absolute.
OR IN OTHER WORDS;
Only the absolute is absolute,not the world, which is only a manifestation of the absolute.
Muhammed is the perfect manifestation of the absolute in the realm of world, as he is the complete and full articulation in the macrocosmic loci that is man, of the totality of god’s attributes.
The emulation of character of Muhammed (in his exercise of his attributes/qualities in the face of circumstances, not the circumstances themselves) is thus the way to transform your experience of reality from the mundane and relative into the transcendental and absolute.

Muhammed is the last prophet and the complete personification of the logos, the other prophets do not share his status as they only personified certain aspects of the logos (Buddha,Jesus Moses,Confucius) Peace be upon them all.

The shadah is a more perfect and complete articulation of the hindu mantra :
`All things are Atma’

So common sense tells me there is no such thing as a deity who sends messages to prophets on behalf of humans who emanated from him and are a part of himself.

There is no such thing that can objectively be called common sense, it is only a product of one’s own experience and application of what you call rational observation in the context of ones experience of reality.

Again you are applying a relative faculty, to understand something that is not relative.

To understand something that is absolute, you must access a part of yourself that is itself absolute. If you disbelieve in the existence of such a potential, then you really have no chance.

Most muslims and christians and people of faith understand their limited ability to comprehend the absolute (on a certain level) and therefore do give an absolute value to their own subjective experience of reality. You might call that blind faith but by such a recognition, which in fact is only a concession to a deeper part of the self which does know the absolute, they are saved, by what can be called a process of grace.

If one wishes to be saved (even if it from oneself) and we all need saving, one only has to have faith in the possibility that one can indeed be saved. If you reject that possibility, then you undermine its ability to activate itself when it will be required in the face of khusf (unveiling) after death when the reality of yourself will be revealed to you.

Personally don’t see any reason why humans have to be put to the test to enter a hypothetical paradise resp. hell after death.

Personally & don’t see being the defining words here.

You already have existence in one realm that is both Heaven and Hell (this world)

You are already being tested by life, whichever ideology you adhere to, the every day experience of life testifies to that.

When you die this experience is transplanted from the sphere of relativity into the sphere of the absolute, which is inevitable as it is only part of the whole and thus cannot fail once again to return to it.

Why do we have to wait until we die and rely on promises that until now no one has been able to substantiate?

why do we even have to be born? See above …

That is why the best way to find out is to do what that sufis say and `die before you die’.

When you say no one, no one in your experience. I have met plenty of people who have experiences with people from beyond the grave, a lot of whom are not muslim. You will find that particularly prevalent in Indonesia’s totok chinese communities.

Of course your take on such experiences is that its just another delusion. Everything that doesn’t correspond to your sensibilities is delusion?

7. The method he used by combining a moral paradigm with brutal violence has proven successful to attract a wide following.

I presume that the laws and principles that give rise to gods and deities are also governing the brutal violence and manifesting the moral paradigm?

Presented for his personal agenda to control the Kaaba, an important source of local economic profit (pilgrimage).

That is why he gave a way all the money he had, died without a penny to his name, slept on a mat on the floor, and showed no desire for the wealth that could have been his. You are not even being factual here.

You are smart man, but you would be a lot smarter if you recognised your’e not as smart as you think.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
barry prima

Due to public demand, here is Sifu Primas take on the issue of AIsha/ Mohammed (pbuh)..I dont see why the Islam Haters are so keen to here an opinion on this issue here on Indonesia mattters,when it is one of the the most hotly contested elswhere on the web.It looks like the muslim baters on this forum have already done their reserach on this matter in any case and made up their minds.

I consider this entire pedo-Aisha-hype a non-event, a bait for normal people’s innate instinct to protect children but thankfully seized by Islam apologists as an opportunity to divert the attention from the core of the matter, i.e. brainwashing and submission to a totalitarian ideology.

I will read your post of August 24 later when I have time.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
You are smart man, but you would be a lot smarter if you recognised your’e not as smart as you think.

Before I start reading your post let me clear out a misunderstanding. The last thing on my mind is to enter a debating contest to show off intelligence. Ego-tripping by playing the devil’s advocate is not on my agenda.

@ all

Time-out for a while. Have fun.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
@ Barry Prima

Pheww .. Just read your essay. Your lousy argument can be shortened into 3 lines.

Here is what you said the Prophet did:

1) At over 50+ age married a 6 – 15 girl. Waited 2 years before having sex.
2 years’ wait is irrelevant. Can’t you see what is wrong. Primitive health care back then means a 50+ man is probably over 70 in today’s world. You and I know that dipping fly’s wings in camel urine only make you sick. How many pre-teen or teenage girl in today’s world madly fall in love with grandpa? 1 strike for un-Javanese.

2) An examplary figure for all future mankind having 9 wives. You argued Asian men had many mistresses, so it was normal.
The difference is that we do not call ourselves ‘prophets’ or being licensed by The One True God. Also, I feel sorry for any children whose dad has 9 wives and countless mistresses. That is un-Javanese. Strike 2.

3) Paedophile?
Westerners call it paedophile. We call it un-Javanese. Strike 3.

You present nothing new. Javanese ain’t easily fooled.
barry prima Says:
August 26th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Javanese ain’t easily fooled.

That’s why 88% of the population is muslim?

unjavanese?

I am not trying to make the prophet fit into some kind of “javanese” prototype?

Rocking a peci in your avatar and espousing an adherence to some romanticised/imaginary notion of of javanese glory/nobility golden age doesn’t make a you a true javanese either. I would called it a childish regression into an imaginary world, due to an inability to deal with one’s identity in the face of the white man’s arguments.

Even if the prophet’s sexuality being unjavanese is your argument, it’s a hollow one. The sultans of Yogja, solo and bima were hardly averse to polygamy or marrying beautiful young women were they? Even spirit wives weren’t outside the limits for them.
When Sukarno’s extramarital romps were videoed by the enemies, the javanese loved him even more.

I thought having a mistress/eses for a man in power was a very javanese occupation. Hell nobody will respect you if you are a dickless one woman wonder!

Rather than deriding these lotharios due to some sick moral puritanism I unashamedly salute them!!
And in doing so I am being more of a javanese man than you.

we do not call ourselves ‘prophets’

haha..seeing as you seem to be an exponent of kejawen/kebatinan, there is a new prophet every month somewhere in java claiming to have got wahyu…they have no lasting power, unlike our great prophet Muhammed who has survived for 1400 years, and will do so until the end of time(INsyallah)

Javanese are easily impressed especially your cewek cewek who are very easily fooled by the charms of the bule man. (don’t get me started on that one!)

The prophet did not need to proclaim himself as a prophet to do these things as, in his society it was perfectly acceptable. Claiming prophethood made him more open to scrutiny if anything!

Primitive health care back then means a 50+ man is probably over 70 in today’s world?

How many men in their 50′s can handle 9 wives in the modern age? Especially in java, if the general belief about the apparent smallness of javanese p***ses is true.

It is a known fact that man sperm count in the modern day is a very small fraction of man even not so long ago, never mind 1400 years ago in hot humid Sahara environment with its unpolluted air.

The prophet still had a full head of black hair and was of fine manly construction at the time of his marriage to Ayesha. 9 wives and a fondness for warfare doesn’t indicate a man who was ready for his slippers/pipe yet!

Finally because the prophet did something 1400 years ago, does not mean we have to do it, does it?
Like is said, when getting married I would consider the same things the prophet did, but the outcome will be different as I live in a different society.

Ask our hindi friend Shokla if you don’t believe me about the value of urine to health, some of his brethren even bath daily in their own piss. There is a whole field of alternative healing around the premise of piss drinking, called uriology (or something).

About the fly thing, don’t knock it until you tried it, or provide some medical proof as to its negative fx.

Westerners call it paedophile. We call it un-Javanese.

I call such a response avoiding the subject. Who cares if it is unjavanese or not anyway apart from you? If you want to counter what I have written, at least do it by way of factual dialectic, not lame attempts at put downs, which are beside the point anyway.

I feel sorry for any children whose dad has 9 wives and countless mistresses.

They don’t need your pity or judgment. If a man can handle his sh*t, good for him. Just because you are probably struggling with one wife, there’s no need to be a player hater!
Muhammed had 9 wives and kept them in check, respect him for that!

3 imaginary points won, give yourself a nice pat on the back pak, while smoking a celebratory kretek and drinking in your case a sourly need cup of tongkat ali…and don’t forget to put the ash in the plate you’ve just finished eating from, although the floor will do too.
You might feel the to need to scratch your head after reading this, if so be careful not to damage your scalp with your overgrown thumb finger, which is reserved for the picking of bogers from your inflated wide nostrilled javanese nose.

And then you want to tell me about primitive?

Disclaimer: Any racism inherent in my post, are not the real view of the author, merely a response in kind to Pak Aluangs propensity for racial stereotyping.

, i.e. brainwashing and submission to a totalitarian ideology.

Are you suggesting I am brain washed? How convenient is that for you as an argument, if I don’t understand it its false?
Doesn’t even meet you own criteria of objectivity, deluded as it is.

The last thing on my mind is to enter a debating contest to show off intelligence.

That’s exactly what you have been engaged in since you started on this forum. Ie:

Muslim :stupid,brainwashed,cannot think for oneself
Me:educated,intelligent not brainwashed

I hope your non brainwashed mind can now comprehend my reason for this line below:

You are smart man, but you would be a lot smarter if you recognised your’e not as smart as you think.
Ish Says:
September 21st, 2008 at 2:02 am
As the Muslim saying goes “Your belief is yours. My belief is mines”

Personally, I respect your belief. If you don’t belief in God, then that is your choice. But don’t belittle people who do belief in god.

My belief is that – “Look around you, If there is creation, then there is a creator.”

-Look in the ecosystem, The western belief of a ‘mother nature’ or ‘nature’, in the balanced and incredibly intricate ecosystem is in fact actually God, NOT nature taking care of itself.

- Ying-Yang, cause-affect, day and night, male and female etc etc .. isn’t it funny how everything is balanced.

Even human consciousness is unexplainable by science. How our consciousness, impossible to observe except by the individual, to measure by means of empirical data, relative to the individual experience, and not constricted by space and time, and the number of brain states exceeding the number of atoms in the universe (based on the possible connections between neurons), and how the intangible/unseen nature of our consciousness (our thoughts) can produce a tangible/measurable result (our actions). My own personal interpretation is that this is proof of a higher power.

If you continue to deny then it will your loss
If you don’t believe in the unseen, then you don’t believe in your own consciousness?

As you sit in front the computer right now, facing the screen, try project consciousness into a corner of the room, watching yourself in front of the computer. That is called self-awareness, unique to humans, and a further proof of existence of god. It gives you the ability that when you’re doing something wrong, you are AWARE that it its wrong (but people do it anyway out of arrogance and temptations.. and thats where heaven and hell comes in)

In a world where there is no god (which is inconceivable) then there would be chaos, whats to stop me from, lets say; stealing from my neighbor, raping my sister etc. there would be no moral boundaries, Everyone will be infinitely selfish and hedonistic; why should I do good deeds in my finite life? When there will be no retribution for the bad deeds that I do. Civilization will cease to exist as life will be meaningless (search the net, even atheist admit this, and this its fallacy).

Though its true that there are certain people who use religion as front to meet their political ends, its the peoples fault, not the religion. Same goes for nationalism, you cant say America is evil, or Indonesia the country is evil,
its the peoples actions.

The fact that humans possess what we call a conscience is further proof of a higher power.

I could go on and on and on …… some people through sheer arrogance in their newfound knowledge of science and power through science that they begin deny the existence of god.

Even Einstein believed in god.
barry prima Says:
October 4th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
I come back from ramadhan abstinence(including from this board) to be sourly disspointed that the infidels have left the battlefield and have been unable to post a response,when i was hoping for an elevated level of discussion.

Have they been defeated by Allahs supreme metaphysics?As a result of the deafening silence on what is one of the all time most popular post on this forum,can we now proclaim:

`falsehood has been exposed and truth has been made clear.’
fullmoonflower Says:
October 4th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Barry Prima,
The dynamic of Javanism and being Javanese – you are completely unaware of it!
You are already defeated by your lack of understanding of Javanese culture which would have explained why Islam was, is and will remain half-baked in Indonesia.

To most Javanese, Islam remains an Arab religion as Christian is to the Bule. For an islamized white man, Javanese sees you as a traitor to your own kind, regardless of your good intent. Furthermore, Javanese are resentful of outsiders who try to tell us what to do.

Your approach is arrogant, intrusive and condescending, typical of white men.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
October 5th, 2008 at 1:32 am
Mbak,

fullmoonflower Says:

October 4th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Barry Prima,
The dynamic of Javanism and being Javanese – you are completely unaware of it!

I disagree with you. Barry Prima must has read some of my postings prior to commenting here, and that of other Javanese like PN calling Arabs ‘mouth foaming fanatics’. This newly converted punk rocker (her very own words) is well aware of Javanese’s dislike of the Arabs and had tried to blend in and show affinity by bad mouthing Arab as ‘sand nigger’. He is not just a traitor to his own kinsmen, he is also deceiful. You see, he is as anglo as Andy, Rob and Oinkgal. They are all from the same genepool and they share similar traits – an entrenched notion that Brown men need to be told what to do. To be fair, Andy is the lesser evil of these boogeymen.
timdog Says:
October 5th, 2008 at 1:53 am
Hell’s bells! I’m siding with Mas AAB!
Yes indeed, if barry prima is indeed what he makes himself out to be and not just another frugly little troll (you never can tell round here) then he is a very confused little boy, very confused indeed…
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
October 5th, 2008 at 2:27 am
@ timdog

After reading some of your intelligent postings, I have reason to believe you have some Javanese blood in you.
timdog Says:
October 5th, 2008 at 2:45 am
Funnily enough AAB, I was wondering about that myself. My mother’s side of the family have coal-black hair and olive skin. The conventional wisdom is that this has something to do with Spanish raiders in the 16th Century, but perhaps there was once a wandering Javanese mystic who washed ashore in Cornwall… could be, could be…
Rob Says:
October 5th, 2008 at 8:08 am
AAB…

We could probably trace ourselves back to the same genepool if we looked hard enough and went far enough back in time. Maybe you and I are related!

That said, I am proud of my heritage and therefore I am proud to be Anglo-Celt of origin. I am sure you are equally proud of your heritage. There are good an bad people no matter what your heritage. Your problem is that you generalize and lump all people of a certain “type” into one group, you stereotype and the stereotype is generally untrue or not substantiated.

I am not sure that I have ever posted that the role of Anglos is to teach or to tell the “brown” man what to do. I am not sure that I carry any “white-man’s burden” to heal the ills of the world.

Yet, I am a realist. It would not matter what I stood for, it would not matter what I said, and it would not matter what deeds I do, as in your eyes I am an Anglo-Celt and this makes me a boogeyman. I take your slander, libel, and defamation of my character with a grain of salt. You, AAB, are a pen name and post as such, because you do not have the courage of your convictions to post under your “real” name. That, sir, is the difference between us and not the colour of our skin, not the religion we believe in, and certainly not our command of language.

Ah, as Uncle Ned once said, “such is life!”
Rob Says:
October 5th, 2008 at 8:12 am
BTW this is a thread on Fitna by Geert Wilders. Perhaps the arguments to and fro on being Javanese and Islam could be better served on a thread of its own?
Andy Says:
October 5th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Yes let’s get back on topic please….Fitna was a visual masterpiece and should win an Academy award for best documentary at the next Oscars. I have never seen so much truth in a movie than when I watched this. I applaud Geert Wilders for his honesty and integrity.
Lairedion Says:
October 5th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
I can somewhat agree his views on Islam but Geert Wilders is just another shallow one-issue politician with no real solutions to the real problems our planet is facing. On environmental topics and the latest financial crisis he’s deafening silent.
Andy Says:
October 5th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Thanks lairedion, I haven’t closely followed Geert Wilders’ political career but can only say he did a fantastic job with his movie. It should be compulsory viewing in all Muslim countries as it may wake them up a bit and let them see how the real world thinks and acts.
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
October 6th, 2008 at 12:12 am
@ Rob,

Rob Says:

October 5th, 2008 at 8:12 am
BTW this is a thread on Fitna by Geert Wilders. Perhaps the arguments to and fro on being Javanese and Islam could be better served on a thread of its own?

The ‘Javanese’ argument is as valid here in this thread as Blackies are to Australia. Javanese Kejawen is an antithesis to Islam, and being Javanese means you are immune to Islamic orthodoxy. If you can’t think laterally and had trouble reading without pictorial-assist, Javanese advice is to shut up.

A self-described Punk Rocker and newly convert from your motherland is trying to get chummy with us and hoping to teach us a thing or two about Middle Eastern fairy tales. Rob, why is it always the Anglo-Celtic species? Don’t they have anything better to do?
ET Says:
November 1st, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Aluang Anak Bayang

They are all from the same genepool and they share similar traits – an entrenched notion that Brown men need to be told what to do. To be fair, Andy is the lesser evil of these boogeymen.

fullmoonflower

The dynamic of Javanism and being Javanese – you are completely unaware of it!
…
Furthermore, Javanese are resentful of outsiders who try to tell us what to do.

What’s wrong with you javanese? Each time a white man speaks his mind you stand up like prancing horses ready to impress the audience with some outdated nationalistic pride.

Time to grow up boys (and girls) and leave this paranoid mentality of the once colonized behind. Whether you like it or not, this is a globalized world, so learn to accept criticism instead of barking at everything that reminds you of an era you actually never experienced yourselves. Exaggerated nationalism is a form of self-pity and an expression of repressed inferiority complex. It becomes boring after a while.
Barry Prima Says:
November 11th, 2008 at 1:16 am
The dynamic of Javanism and being Javanese – you are completely unaware of it!

And what exactly is this Elusive true Javanesism? Is it to be found in PBs rampant xenophobia, with its affected Victorian era Oscar Wildish whiter than white polemic that any contemporary Englishman could, or for that matter would not want understand, or is it to be found in AA’s alley cat morals and bad manners?
Reading a few of your post which in contrast were all very sensible and humane I thought perhaps you were the elusive true Javanese that we were all looking for. However you really have let yourself down in your first encounter with me by resorting to the lowest level of defense “im Javanese,and your’e not,so there”. More disappointing is that in jumping on the anti Barry bandwagon without good reason you have shown a herd like mentality.
I have not claimed to possess true javaneism, I have merely rebuked AA who in trying too hard to be something he stopped being a long time ago, consistently gets it wrong and perhaps on one occasion timdog (again in trying too hard misses the point).

Furthermore, Javanese are resentful of outsiders who try to tell us what to do.

Actually nobody likes being told what to do or what their belief system should be, especially by outsiders. If you actually bother to read my post, you would see I am actually only defending my faith and the faith of the majority of Javanese people from outsiders who are trying to tell me what it is, when they don’t have a clue!

To most Javanese, Islam remains an Arab religion as Christian is to the Bule

So I guess the vast majority of your family, your parents and your illustrious, although properly invented, ancestors were all deluded and you are not!
Islam is very much consistent with the javanese psyche that’s why it has sustained for over 500 years and triumphed over hundreds of years of Dutch rule and the world most concentrated effort of Christian missionary work.
I see you alluded to the baba jawa tannah and serat centhini…these books are avowedly Islamic, the Kraton of yogya which you also alluded to, is actually built and governed by Islamic metaphysics/cosmology.
You only think that Islam is not compatible with being Javanese, because you do not understand either islam or Javanese culture and their relationship to each other. I have studied under experts in Javanese culture, some academic and some mystical, and it is only through them that I understand Islam.
It is a shame that the Javanese nationalist here do not seem to be aware that this idea of Islam is not Javanese is something they have unconsciously absorbed from the white anthropologist and Islam haters, who are actually everywhere telling you what you are and how to rule your country! I do not deny that a lot of javense resisted Islam as complete religion and thought it was opposed to Javanese science, but they did not have to resort to the white man’s type of arguments in stating their position.
As Rob suggested, what being Javanese actually is, would make a good thread in itself and I am quite happy to discuss with you on this matter! Are you willing to step to the plate?
In denying Islam you are denying a Hugh part of who you are. You have every right to reject it, but don’t do so under the guise of being true Javanese, especially when you can’t back it up!
If like AA you think true Javanese culture is Kejawen, I don’t want to mention any names but if you think of the greatest kejawen figures in history and especially the last century, you will see that they had a huge respect and indebtedness for Islam. All that is useful linguistically and cosmologically in Kejawen is from Sufism. Sufism and Islam saved Kejawen, not destroyed it. Otherwise you would still be worshipping elephants’ and monkeys and living in a world of dungeons and dragons. Without the framework of Islam, Kejawen or what is left of it is reduced to the realm of the occult and superstition not true metaphysics and spirituality

Javanese sees you as a traitor to your own kind

Haha…..now who’s being intrusive and telling who what they can and cant be? You don’t know who or what I am…and anyway their is nothing more attractive to an Indonesian woman than a bule convert to islam, the bule convert can get into places the bule no religion/chrisitan never will. The bule convert is every indonesians wet dream..

I heard you claim elsewhere you are descendent of Maulana Malik Ibrahim?
How exactly did you establish this complicated and rather glorious ancestry. I’m rather curious to know? In inventing a a noble ancestory, at least you are being Javanese, but in respect to filial piety all of you are most evidently not! How your ancestors would be turning in their graves!
fullmoonflower Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
I heard you claim elsewhere you are descendent of Maulana Malik Ibrahim?

if YES, so what?

it’s all about choice…

whoever my anchestor are, Maulana Malik Ibrahim or KHA. Dahlan (he is my great grand father)…
I’m on my way…. it’s my choice
Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
November 12th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
Mbak fullmoonflower,

sampun, panjenengan mboten usah sumelang dening piyambakipun. Barry ngendika menawi “sare” kaliyan bocah menika halal, artinipun piyambakipun menika pedophile. Barry Prima menika sanes asmanipun piyambak. Piyambakipun mboten wantun ngagem asmanipun asli, amargi mangkih identitasipun piyambake saged konangan kaliyan bapak kulo ingkang dados direktur dateng intel. Awake dewe, tiyang Jawi, kedah bersatu ngadhepi tiyang ingkang kados mekaten. bangsa lan generasi kita kedah ingkah paling utami. Agama ingkang kaping pindho.

@ Barry Prima

Keep it brief next time. Anyway, I read them and wasted no time telling fullmoomflower to be easy on you. Just in case you need it translated. This is what I said above,

“Barry Prima is a Punk Rocker Bule and recently see truth in the quran. He is here to help Javanese improve our dodgy mistranslation of the quran so Allah swt won’t send in tsunamis, earthquakes, and eruptions. He is concerned for our spirituality and well-being, not interested in our children private parts as I initially suspected. Let’s us welcome him with Javanese sopan. Give this Bule a break.”

Peace.
Arjun Says:
December 31st, 2008 at 6:45 pm
The all is stupidity and just remove to geert wilders from this whole world.
David Says:
January 24th, 2009 at 12:47 am
The all is stupidity and just remove to geert wilders from this whole world.

He might be about to be removed to prison.
Lairedion Says:
January 24th, 2009 at 2:26 am
Patung,

He might be about to be removed to prison.

The current politically correct climate in Holland is stifling and free speech is applied selectively as more and more people are bowing down to Muslim demands.

Muslims are demanding special treatment and protection against critics like Wilders, are supported by the intellectual left liberal and now also by the Court of Appeal but at the same time it is OK for radical clerics, under the banner of religious freedom, to incite violence against gays, to call all Western women whores and to teach the mosque visitors they should reject Western society, culture and customs.

Bringing Wilders to court is an insult to free speech and all values of a secular free Western society. All people committed to free speech should strongly reject this move, whether you agree with Wilders or not.
ET Says:
January 27th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
He might be about to be removed to prison.

Knowing Dutch stinginess the reason behind this might well be that it is probably cheaper to keep him locked up than to provide 24/7 protection.

Anyway, if they put him in jail I will make an appeal to boycott Dutch products and services.
indo4ever Says:
February 16th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
wilder is a disgrace for dutch society and for the whole world, and i don’t think wilders have some indo blood, that’s a lie man, he is just a buLe Gila, and if he was, than he’s also a big disgrace for indo’s community why you post something like that.
i think that man is insane, calls everybody whose not with him a moron, muslim or not