49 Comments on “Literature Commissar”

1. Achmad Sudarsono Says:
   March 5th, 2008 at 3:41 pm

   O.K. Ross, question: do you speak or read Indonesian? Which of Pramoedya’s books have you read?

2. Achmad Sudarsono Says:
   March 5th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

   The thing is Ross, I don’t think you do speak or read Bahasa Indonesia at all.

   Otherwise, why would you be quoting Max Lane’s awful translations. (Max has been known to recommend Stalin to young undergraduates, it’s true).

   Whereever you’re from (other than the gutter), would you take, say, a Mongolian who didn’t speak English seriously as a pundit on the U.S. ? How ’bout an African who only spoke Zulu talking about English literature ? Or a Pakistani who only spoke Urdu talking about Australian literature and politics ?

   More to the point, why should anyone take a grubby Jl. Jaksa drunkard like you seriously when you don’t speak the language of the country you’re talking about ?

3. trane Says:
   March 5th, 2008 at 9:56 pm

   Achmad,

   I think the quotes from Pramoedya himself are worth taking seriously. They may have been taken out of context and all that, but they seem worrying enough to me.

   I have only read Tales from Jakarta, which I enjoyed very much.

   Best regards,
   trane

4. Achmad Sudarsono Says:
   March 6th, 2008 at 7:58 am

   Trane,

   I guess in a way, I’m saying, “so what.” If Pram was a major asshole, so what ?

   His literature reflects a deep sense of the expanse of the human spirit — and it’s his books we should be judging him on.

   There have been stories about Pramoedya and Lekra for a while. So yes, let’s not eulogise Pram - in the ’60s as an Icon of pluralism.

   But it’s really his books he should be judged on — books the likes of Ross (has he ever read a book without pictures from cover to cover?) hasn’t read.

5. Achmad Sudarsono Says:
   March 6th, 2008 at 8:01 am

   P.S. — I just think it’d be good to establish Ross’s credentials — which are having groped a few 17 year old bar girls in Blok M and being able to bargain for a Steady Safe taxi at 4 am in the morning.

6. Subrata Says:
   March 6th, 2008 at 11:31 am

   Compared to Pram’s books, Ross’ “Red handed in Aceh” and “Red Jakarta” is like comparing a real literature to “kaki lima stensilan”. Sorry, Ross no contest!

   And I am with mas Achmad on Ross all the way.

   Peace.

7. spew-it-all Says:
   March 6th, 2008 at 1:16 pm

   Sorry Ross, I reckon you must stop writing in IM as this is becoming your medium to promulgate your anti-communists creeds.

   Sadly, opinion like this will give Indonesian under impression that expats can say anything about the country and can be an authoritative source for their fellows. Worse than that, inferior Indonesians would nod to anything nonsensical caming out of expat’s mouth.

   I suspect that Ross hasn’t read all books of Pram. Most appallingly, his historical knowledge of Indonesia is very poor, let alone his research skills. Pram was never a head of Lekra, only head of literary section. Jubar Ajoeb was the secretary general.

   As for Manikebu vs Lekra, please read more sources not only from a guy who tends to have alzheimer like Taufik. Any historical events should be read in the context, although different approaches might give various interpretations on them.

   In 1990s, as a response to uproar caused by Ramon Magsaysay Award given to Pram, a discussion held in Jakarta and attended by various intellectuals, artists, and activists who were interested in the cultural debate in 1950-60s. Gunawan supported Pram and I think Arief Budiman did support him as well.

8. Ross Says:
   March 6th, 2008 at 1:34 pm

   Oh, dear.
   Achmad the Rude Supercilious Expat is in another tantrum, his posts almost awash with spittle as he rails against a guy he’s never met (otherwise he’d know I chat away in Bahasa Indonesia quite happily, to girls of all ages)

   Leaving A.R.S.E. to his latest bout of mendacious toilet-talk, yes, the nominal boss of Lekra was another pinko, but Pramoedya was the leading light, spew-it-all. Please don’t let your hostility to anti-communism lead you to demand I be silenced. That’s the sort of thing Pramoedya was into.

   Fans of my novels- and those who aren’t fans -are entitled to criticise them. They’re my hobby. I don’t claim they’re literary masterpieces, but a lot of folks enjoy the adventurous yarns- looks like even A.R.S.E. has read one or two, since he ascribes some my protagonists’ antics to myself!(tho’ even the dimmest bule in my writings never uses Safe and Steady taxis)
   Incidentally, since the ‘argument’ has moved into this area, my new one is out, and it’s entitled ‘White Trash.’ And I started it before I’d even heard of Achmad!

9. Rambutan Says:
   March 6th, 2008 at 2:43 pm

   Ross again, capedeeehhh…
   Anyway, big surprise: Pramoedya was no saint. Who would have thought. The Lekra times are an old and well-known story and I’m not going to defend Pram for what he did. Yes, I believe it was wrong. He is not perfect. He was blinded by his believe in certain ideologies.
   However, he paid dearly for it. He spent 14 years in Buru. More years under house arrest in Jakarta. He suffered a lot. More than anybody deserves. Please read ‘Nyani Sunyi Seorang Bisu’. It is a really impressive and moving book.
   Independent of his suffering, his good and bad deeds, there is no doubt about the fact that he is one of Indonesia’s best (many believe THE best) writers. Anybody, who puts his mastery as a writer into question is blinded by its political beliefs/ agenda.

10. spew-it-all Says:
    March 6th, 2008 at 4:33 pm

    I know it’s not fair to ask you to be silent. However spurious and bigoted the opinion is, the right to express themselves must be served.

    Yet it would be wiser to be more careful in addressing some problems and analysing historical event. I am not a leftist but it really gets up my nose when people are slack in dealing with historical event. So far the ‘truth’ of history has been constructed by either leftists, fervent nationalist or ignorant and obtuse right-wing.

11. Achmad Sudarsono Says:
    March 6th, 2008 at 7:11 pm

    Ross,

    Have you read any of Pramoedya’s novels in Bahasa Indonesia ?

12. dewaratugedeanom Says:
    March 8th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

    spew-it-all

    So far the ‘truth’ of history has been constructed by either leftists, fervent nationalist or ignorant and obtuse right-wing.

    Besides positivist history - no document, no history - oral history also takes an important part in the reconstruction of truth. However, every account of it will always be coloured by those who tell the tales. So, unless it’s blatant lies, let’s hear from all sides and then make up our minds.

13. spew-it-all Says:
    March 10th, 2008 at 5:02 am

    Dewa,

    Ideally, we all should hear from all sides and then make up our minds. Yet, it’s not that easy. In the case of Indonesia, I’ve never seen anything written from left perspective, particularly during Suharto. Even when New Order collapsed, any attempts of writing alternative history faced prohibition. I’ve noticed oral history is now playing important in Indonesia although as methodology is rather new.

    History war is healthy and a perfect testing ground for the representation of the past.

14. Oigal Says:
    March 12th, 2008 at 9:24 am

    Hey Ross,

    As a writer of some note (mostly out of tune) and still fighting yesterday’s battles do you have your own website or blog? Most people here jump from topic to topic but you seem trapped in a fairly narrow band of paranoia. Perhaps if you have own site, you could rant n rave with your like minded cold war warriors and leave the humans in peace.

    Of course, there is an element of risk in that aka “throwing a party and nobody comes” but better than continually riding on another blogs popularity.

15. Achmad Sudarsono Says:
    March 13th, 2008 at 11:05 am

    Oigal,

    Owch. Harsh but fair.

16. treespotter Says:
    March 14th, 2008 at 6:06 pm

    “an unrepentant Red, namely Pramoedya Ananta Toer”

    Do you even know the man is dead?

17. Ziad Says:
    March 15th, 2008 at 1:25 am

    It happens that I am reading one of Pramoedya’s books and I am deeply touched by his humanistic spirit and historic richness, I am sure if I was able to read it in its original language I would have enjoyed its vivid description of Indonesian society, but there is no doubt he is a great author who makes Indonesians proud, even those who don’t share is ideological leanings. I am re-posting here an old post with slight changes because I think that is what Ross is aiming at in the essence. I apologize for the excessive length but hope it will satisfy dear Ross.

    Since many Indonesians in 2008 are still affected by the ‘red scare’………………http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1574/genocide/#comment-69694

18. Janma Says:
    March 17th, 2008 at 11:18 am

    Ross, I can’t help but think that all the things you say you are terrified of happening if the ‘Reds’ had gotten power here, happened anyway…. and the ‘Reds’ didn’t do them, the Orde Baru did them….
    Newspapers closed down….. yep
    Mass Killings…… Yep
    Repression, incarceration or murdering of anyone who doesn’t tow the party line…. yep
    Using Power to crush dissent… ditto…..
    The list goes on.
    Have you ever thought that the reason you are like this is because they forced you to read ‘Animal Farm’ over and over in school?

19. Hannah Says:
    March 17th, 2008 at 12:03 pm

    rambutan,

    you have read nyanyi sunyi seorang bisu? can you tell me where you managed to get that because i would love to be able to buy it too…reading it in english is just not the same.
    thanks!

20. Lairedion Says:
    March 17th, 2008 at 7:41 pm

    That’s right Mbak Janma,

    Totalitarian states engaged in torture, oppression, killing, disappearing of “enemies” and curtailing of press and media, are covered with all kinds of ideologies (fascism, racism, communism, national-socialism, religion-based) but of course only the red ones are evil.

    The likes of the fascist junta’s of Latin America of the 70’s and 80’s and Soeharto-ruled Indonesia were friendly to the West and the US in particular so why bother the thousands of killed and disappeared?

21. nenek sihir Says:
    March 18th, 2008 at 7:55 am

    ‘Gadis pantai’ - the Indonesian version, not the English translation ‘The Girl from the coast’ is compelling, moving and beautifully written from start to finish…but you wouldn’t know that, would you Ross? Would you??? Good idea from another poster to bugger off and get yer own blog and stop using this site as a vehicle for your hateful rantings which border on the ludicrous. Didn’t they get rid of you on the expat site - maybe people here should consider boycotting IM or at least anything written by this sad fool. Beware the latent danger of sounding like an (extremely) stuck record-how much of this rubbish can one person keep churning out!

    Hannah, I was in Gramedia and Toko Buku Gunung Agung recently (Bandung stores) and they stock Indonesian and English versions of Pram’s works, but they don’t always have all titles available.

22. Ross Says:
    March 18th, 2008 at 12:56 pm

    Why do so many of these pinko clowns use Indonesian names to post when they are clearly clapped-out expats?
    So now the cry is silence the Right in honour of the unlamented dead of the Left?
    Is Indonesia Matters registered as a playpen for semi-educated lefties?
    What a tolerant bunch you left-libs are!
    And how literate- ‘bugger off..’ Oh dear, Nenek Sihir (nenek2 lampir?)go back to school before you criticise others for their lack of reading.

    Yes Janma, Animal Farm was and is a good read. Lots of hard things happened under Suharto, but at least he’s gone -the real ratbags, in Hanoi and Vientiane and Beijing, have not yet been brought to book. May you, even though you are a Grandma, live to see them hung, as neatly as Saddam.

23. Janma Says:
    March 18th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

    May you, even though you are a Grandma, live to see them hung, as neatly as Saddam.

    I’m only just past 40 ross, so I may outlive the pinkies yet! I thought I already had actually….. as for the ‘neat’ death of saddam…. I’d hate to see your idea of messy.

24. Ross Says:
    March 18th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

    Wow, what a young grannie! I do apologise for assuming you were a senior cit.

25. timdog Says:
    March 19th, 2008 at 6:36 am

    I’m not sure about the character assasination, but I am inclined to agree with Ross when it comes to Pramoedya’s writing - in translation at least. I have reasonable spoken Indonesian, and can read Jawa Pos, but couldn’t begin to make any inroads into “literature”. So perhaps it is Max Lane’s own poor literary abilities that are behind the frankly rather low quality of much of the style and phrase in Pram’s books in English… I suspect not though, given that Lane is surely not responsible for the flaws of structure and characterisation, and also given that some of my literary-minded Indonesian friends have grudgingly conceded that much of Pram’s writing is pretty much unreadable in the original too - certainly compared to some of the younger generation of writers. I’d say for example that - in translation - Ayu Utami is a stunningly good writer in terms of style.

    I’ve always thought it a shame that Pramoedya has such a looming, vital status in Indonesian literature and that the Buru Quartet itself casts such a long shadow. It’s a monumental work, with a monumental back-story, but given a detached literary assessment it’s a monumental failure. In my opinion.

26. Ross Says:
    March 19th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

    I pause to review the rubbish from ‘nenek sirih’ again- what rot she talks, me ejected from the expat site? I still post there quite often.
    And further to my comments on bules who hide behind Indonesian names, presumably to lend credibility to their ‘insights,’ is the nenek a man posting as a gran?
    Nenek means grandmother, but a lady would not use abusive talk like ‘bugger off,’ or is she one of those ‘liberated’ wimmin who think its all right for the gentler sex to swear like navvies?
    No, of course I didn’t read Red Pram’s stuff in Bahasa Indonesia. I’m okay with Komaps but not that good. However, I didn’t read Tolstoy’s books in Russian and still enjoyed reading, himas with various other Russians, notably Solzhenitsyn, and the excellent Italian, Oriana Fallaci, now there’s a woman for you! I found her English livley, if a bit awry.
    And yes, I know the old Commie Pram is dead, as is Jack the Ripper, one hopes, but we don’t mourn that loss. They both had time to repent but never made the effort.

27. Rob Says:
    March 19th, 2008 at 11:32 pm

    Ross…

    An interesting take on Indonesian literature and history!

    The facts you present are like statistics; if you choose the right ones and put them together in the right way then they can support any argument that you might want to make…

    I have read Pram’s books in Indonesian and in English where they have been translated…Any translation is prone to lose a little something in the translation process as some things just don’t translate well from the original to the target language. But the translations by Max Lane are pretty good and I have not seen any alternatives by other translators floating around. So, for those that do not read Indonesian (and it is one thing to speak Indonesian it is a different ball game when it comes to reading) beyond the Jawa Pos or Kompas then these translations of Pram’s work are a good introduction until such time as you can read the originals in Indonesian and make informed comparisons.

    As you have pointed out there are arguments to be made that Pram had some skeletons in the closet but whether those skeletons, real or imagined, completely invalidate his literary opus requires a much more reasoned account than to just write it off as loony leftist, marxist tripe. But when it is all said and done I defend your right to post what you like and where you like within reason (defamation, slander, libel, that sort of thing) and with regard to the prevailing laws and regulations Simply, people do not have to read or respond to you if they don’t want to!

    But history shows that Indonesia and all Indonesians continue to pay a price for 30 September 1965…And this price cannot be squarely and solely laid at the feet of the Communists, in fact it is some of Indonesia’s most fervent anti-communists that conceivably have to accept the blame…

    Cheers

28. Patung Says:
    March 20th, 2008 at 3:06 am

    As you have pointed out there are arguments to be made that Pram had some skeletons in the closet but whether those skeletons, real or imagined, completely invalidate his literary opus requires a much more reasoned account than to just write it off as loony leftist, marxist tripe.

    That’s an interesting point, there’s a good article on this The Line Through the Heart.

    From the article, I can say two things about Arthur Koestler

    1. Koestler often made a nuisance of himself and possibly committed rape.
    2. Koestler was a great writer and “Darkness at Noon” is a classic.

    Before anyone says that I’m comparing Pram to a rapist, no, the point from the article is that we can hold two seemingly contradictory ideas in our head at the same time and see that they are both true, the one doesn’t cancel the other out.

    Ross’s article would have been better without the first paragraph, since as I’m trying to say it distracts from the point and is barely relevant but hey it’s an opinion piece and he can say whatever he likes. And it would have been better if some attempt at fairness had been made, some of Pram’s political record does have some serious blotches and spots but is that the whole story? I doubt it.

29. Achmad Sudarsono Says:
    March 20th, 2008 at 10:22 am

    Ok.

    Ross. We’ve got it.

    You haven’t read the books in Indonesian,

    Personally, I think that means you’re talking through your ass. The English language translations just don’t capture the original. The moods, feelings, and ultimately meanings in Pram’s work, I think, are buried in the sounds of the language.

    I find it hard to believe you read Tolstoy, because there aren’t any pictures them last time I checked.

30. Janma Says:
    March 21st, 2008 at 10:45 am

    Personally, I think saying that you can’t understand Pram’s books from the english translations is similar to people going on about not being able to understand the Koran except in Arabic….. it’s true there is a difference, but it’s not like there is no insight to be had from reading a translation.
    I think the main problem with Ross reading Pram’s books is his perception (hate and fear of communists and the author himself) and that colors all he reads, so he only takes what reinforces his view anyway and does not process anything else.

31. Rob Says:
    March 21st, 2008 at 12:21 pm

    Most things lose a little in the translation most often because translators or interpreters sub-consciously reference words to their own framework of understanding and sometimes this has an impact. Yet, that said, I have to agree with Janma that to simply say that the only legitimate rendering of Pram’s work is in Indonesian is a narrow way to look at the written and oral traditions of the world.

    Ross, if he had read the original Indonesian versions would more than likely have ended up with the same conclusions for the reasons alluded to by Janma. I might not have said hate for all things communist and Pram, but I willlet Ross dig that hole for himself if he wants to acknowledge any underlying personal hatred for or of Pram. But just reading Ross’ posting (opinion pieces) it is not rocket science to work out where he is coming from. If you disagree make a reasoned response to the opinions of the author, my guess is that you are unlikely to convert him to your point of view anyway.

    The analogy with the Al-Qu’ran is an interesting one and one I have heard before and heard often. It relies on not only converting people to the “true faith” of Islam but would require them to learn Arabic before they could really consider themselves Muslims. This has been an issue before and will undoubtedly be an issue again. IM has addressed this topic in other postings relating to the jailing of a cleric who dared to preach the faith in Indonesian.

    My understanding of God has always been that God would want you to be in conversation with him (assumption is male…sorry girls)…I find it hard to believe that God is going to say “wait a minute, before you can communicate with me you have to be functionally literate in Arabic!, if you are not come back when you are and we will chat then!” Does not strike me as the omnipotent all loving God that most religions preach is the one true God!

    Other arguments that get trotted out every now and then stem from this one…like converts to the religion are not as good a Muslims as those born into Islam. I am still to here what Sura justifies this belief!

    But getting back on track…the English translations of Pram’s work are pretty good and worth the read if you cannot read the originals in Indonesian. They are worth a read even if you can read the originals in Indonesian…I have read both and thoroughly enjoyed both. I read Max Lane’s translations by the way. His political affliations or leanings do not make the man a poor translator!

    In response to the idea of force-feeding Pram. Any syllabus that purports to be teaching Indonesian literature must include Pram. It must also include other literary luminaries and literature critics such as Rendra, Goenawan Mohamad, HB Jassin, and Mochtar Lubis, among many others.

    Whether you love or loathe Pram’s work there is little doubt it forms a part of the Indonesian literary fabric.

32. timdog Says:
    March 21st, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    I have absolutely no hatred or fear of communists whatsoever, but I too when reading Pram IN TRANSLATION have a problem with his qualities as a writer. A summary of my complaints about the Buru Quartet follows. I know I will be abused and scoffed at and dismissed for not having sufficiently good Indonesian to read the original, so I will say that the following applies only to the TRANSLATION. But I will add that as many of the complaints are about structure and characterisation I think it would be a fair bet that they DO also apply to the original:

    When a book becomes a historical, social or political artefact it is difficult for it to be judged objectively as a piece of literature. The Buru Quartet has enormous status as a political entity, and as a symbol of all that the liberal world holds dear. The story behind the books is an epic in itself: a writer, a hero of the Indonesian revolution, falls from favour under a new military regime; he is imprisoned without trial for his political beliefs; he survives a decade of confinement; for years he has no access to pen or paper, but he recites the first volumes of his masterpiece orally to fellow prisoners; eventually the work is written down, eventually he is released and the books published, only to be abruptly banned by the same despotic government. By the time Indonesia emerged into democracy and Pramoedya’s books returned to the shelves, the Buru Quartet was an exalted work, inevitably appended with superlative epithets. But no matter how astonishing the back-story, no matter how ambitious the scope and scale, it is important for the Quartet to be critically appraised, for as fiction and literature it is deeply flawed.

    The first three books are narrated by Minke, an educated Javanese, a writer and journalist. It is in Minke himself that a key problem of the entire Quartet is most apparent: an abject failure of characterisation. There is little real feeling of Minke’s development and changing ideas. There is no real sense of him maturing as a character through the course of the books. As a voice he remains sketchy and indistinct, and at times rather hard to believe in (for example in his rather troubling ability to speak every language under the sun with the exception of Chinese, without, apparently ever having to learn them).

    In the enormous cast of individuals who people the book there are very few who take real shape. Bad people are only revealed as bad with clumsy, pantomime dialogue; bit player after bit player speaks in exactly the same voice. This is particularly the case when it comes to the women of the books. Pramoedya railed against much of traditional Javanese culture, and a key theme of the books is the power and importance of women in the history of the Indies. But perhaps the Javanese sense of ideal womanhood was too deeply ingrained in him. Minke’s first wife, Annelies, is intended as a beguiling, fragrant figure. Instead she is an irksome epitome of demure 19th Century womanhood. She is intensely annoying, given to fainting and taking to her bed at moments of mild stress, and she eventually expires, apparently from no disease other than an excess of delicate femininity. Minke’s second wife, Mei, a young Chinese revolutionary appears at first a more solid figure. But scarcely has she met Minke than she too takes to her bed and begins to waste demurely away. His allegedly formidable third wife is barely even a silhouette of a real character and she speaks in precisely the same cloying voice as the others. Even the real-life Kartini resembles this same vague and delicately female outline when she makes a cameo.

    The exception to all this of course is the mighty Nyai Ontosoroh, a formidable and brilliant figure, and one of the few real characters of the entire work. It should have been she who was the central figure of the books throughout (alas, Pramoedya was not great enough a writer to truly convey the sense of the dalang, the master - or mistress - behind the scenes).

    The strained circumstances of the books’ creation and eventual appearance make it very unlikely that the manuscripts ever met the red pen of a professional editor: it shows. Some brutal expurgating could probably cut the length by half, yet keep all the integrity, and make it far more readable. As a fictional rendering of the historical birth of Indonesian identity it is a mighty undertaking. But all too often, especially in the shambolic third book, all attempts at proper literary story-telling are abandoned for half a dozen pages of badly written historical background. And at times throughout the books the writing itself is astonishingly poor. The prose is often startlingly clunky and amateurish - though it is of course difficult to know if this is an accurate reflection of the original, or merely the inadequacies of the translator.

    A writer of fiction dealing with real historical events faces a considerable challenge. Some succeed by making their protagonist a minor, inconsequential character, or by fictionalising a real figure. But Pramoedya placed invented persons at the heart of things, and in doing this he is largely successful and the tweaking of real historical events that this necessitates does not jar. But there are some needless historical inaccuracies, for example, the background information about the Balinese resistance to Dutch conquest in book three - which has no bearing on central characters or story - is largely plain wrong…

    As a story the first book is strongest; it is in the final book that voice and character succeeds. Minke is replaced as narrator by Pangemanann, and he is far more palpable a figure, his tormented, compromised soul far easier to feel and believe (though like book three the final volume does have some excruciating longeurs). Alongside Nyai Ontosoroh he is almost alone as a true character in the whole work - in its translation at least. And this is perhaps a large part of the problem - in the original character and narrative is driven by use of language, of tone and inference, of different tongues, and this is unavoidably lost in translation.

    The Buru Quartet is a hugely important work in both Indonesian literature and history, and it deserves to be read by any eager student of that nation. It stands for something crucial too. But no matter what its importance or political aims no work of literature earns the right to shrug aside its responsibility to be just that - literature and readable fiction - and in this, to some extent, the Quartet fails.

    This was a review I posted on Amazon by the way…

33. Ross Says:
    March 25th, 2008 at 8:08 pm

    Timdog has gone to great lengths to explain his appreciation of some literature. He is obviously an educated man and thinks about things, unlike some contributors, e.g. Achmad the the Rude Supercilious Expat, who reads little and whose posts reflect his ignorance (of common civility as much as literacy).
    How then can Timdog tell us he has ‘no hatred of communists, whatsoever.’
    He only has to read the news and see what communism is doing to Tibet at the moment, what it continues to do to Vietnam every day, and how it has turned a prosperous country like Cuba into a despotic cesspool. It’s our duty to detest red vermin, not least those who professed to write about human suffering and yet enlisted in the ranks of those who revel in it!
    For pity’s sake, Timdog, what’s more important. a dead red’s scribblings or mass-murder, prison camps and the wholesale denial of basic freedoms.

34. Ziad Says:
    March 25th, 2008 at 11:57 pm

    Ross, you maintain a unitary view of communism which makes you incapable of sympathizing with communists even when they are unjustifiably victimized. If China represents genuine communism I would oppose communism all the way, but in fact socialism is a broad humanist tradition, historical communisms have been shaped by events and individuals and under specific circumstances many wrongfully adopted communism as etiquette for an absolutist tyranny that actually practiced forms of state lead capitalist or state capitalism which is the worse form of capitalism since it deprives workers of any tool of resistance. Communism is the emancipation of the productive forces in society and as such it has been rarely applied or applied with great restraints (such as the early days of the Russian revolution where workers administered their workplaces without supervision from any instances not even the communist party). Now Stalinism had much to do with negating the essence of communism, or maybe genuine democratic communism was not viable under enormous pressures from the western colonialist powers (who afforded their citizens with high standards of living by sucking the blood of other nations). So if one adopts a composite view of communism it might help understanding the sincere humanist motives that lead people like Pram and other intellectuals (intellectuals have always been one of the backbones of socialism). I adopt your critique of Pol Pot style Communism, but I urge you to acknowledge the injustices that have been done to communists and other progressives in cases like Indonesia (Communism is also a much needed remedy to religious fanaticism and irrational sectarianism, hope I am not offending anybody by lecturing on this subject but my country of origin has suffered too from sectarianism).

35. timdog Says:
    March 26th, 2008 at 1:44 am

    Ross, having been to both China and to Vietnam, and having read a little political theory I would just say that I am inclined to agree with the following proposition (one which incidentally is given a great deal of credence by many commentators):

    China has long, long since abandoned all ideological and functional adherence to communism and given itself over wholeheartedly to free-market capitalism, private enterprise and private industry. However, instead of also installing the basic tenets of democracy and human rights which are generally considered the requisite companions of a “capitalist” system in the West, the Chinese authorities have maintained an utterly disengenuous facade of “communism”, manifested by little more than a red flag and a reverence for past leaders. This provides an excuse for pursuing an outright “capitalist” system without instituting “democracy”…
    Thus, while cities across China burgeon with private investment and quite literally millions of individual private fortunes are made without any communist curtailment, we still have the kind of thing that is currently going on in Tibet. Despotism, yes; brutality and wickedness, yes, but communism? Really? Hardly… The same applies to Vietnam…

    Communism, when put into practice has generally been an unmitigated disaster, (with the notable exception of the admirable successes in terms of development and education achieved by democratically elected “communist” - ah, the irony - state governments in Kerala, and to a lesser extent Bengal - obviously prevented from comitting any excesses by their position within a wider democratic Indian nation). However, unlike you, I simply do not consider communism to be a threat or an issue in the modern world, and certainly not in the modern Indonesia…

    (I do though, very much consider China to be a thorny and dangerous issue, but “communism” has nothing to do with that)…

    I am also, incidentally, highly dubious about the value of communism as a counter to religious extremism as suggested by Ziad . Communism in practice has only known how to deal with religion through brutality (see what happened to mosques and temples, monks and muslims in cultural revolution China), and as the rapid resurgence of religion in post-communist states (the rise of ugly anti-semetic Catholicism in Poland for example) clearly demonstrates - it didn’t work…

36. Ziad Says:
    March 26th, 2008 at 2:44 am

    I agree Timdog, state communism was inefficient and counterproductive in dealing with the issue of religious extremism, and that is because it was intolerant nevertheless the materialist rationale allowed great advances in science and technology, but that was not my point either. My point is that religion has been used as a tool against progressive forces in third world countries; on the contrary the presence of communist parties in many of these countries alimented a vivid cultural life and helped mature a new consciousness.
    Regarding your first point, it is true that communism has lead in many instances to disastrous results, but that does not necessarily mean that the basic principles of equality and justice are bad. Communism have had positive achievements in health care and education, however the communism and other “developmentalist” regimes could not resist the neoliberal offensive (that was extremely violent in many instances, as noted by Naomi Klein in her new book The Shock Doctrine). Even today communism is still a relevant ideology India as you have mentioned is an example, but also Nepal, Cyprus, Venezuela, Bolivia… and many other nations are having their democratic experiences with active communist and socialist movements that are trying to affect slow change by legalistic approaches, their success will be determined in the future, but at least they prove that when democratic means are open communists will abide by the rules of the game. Now if you look at a country like Indonesia, and beyond the many lies about the PKI, the communists have in fact been more inclined to the pacific route (at least anyone would agree that Indonesians were not subjected to a harsh communist rule like in the Ex soviet Bloc for instance) whereas in country like east Germany or Russia and despite a lengthy communist rule that was systematically subjected to one sided criticism still retain strong communist movements that are active and well represented in parliament. So how come people in those countries have a much more positive assessment of communism and are more tolerant towards their communists (who were the oppressors) while people in Indonesia (not all) are not willing to acknowledge the injustices done against their local communists and allow for a discussion of communism?

37. timdog Says:
    March 26th, 2008 at 5:45 am

    Ziad - the principles of equality and justice are more than just sound principles: they are among the most crucial of all sound principles… However, as someone who is essentially socialist in outlook, I’m inclined to think of communism as the black sheep of “our side of the family”, the one who brings shame on the rest of us, and has ultimately damaged socialism of all shades and hues… I suspect that the ultimate failure of global communism is what has led, eventually, to the death of mainstream socialism in much of western Europe - something that pains me mightily. That communism can - and does, in India for example - make valuable contributions when fettered by a broader democratic system doesn’t neccessarily mean that communism in it’s essence is a positive force…

    Your above post is sound, well-written, and convincingly argued (a rare treat around here ;-)) but I did have some trouble disentangling the multiple issues you adress.

    Why do there remain in so many post-communist states significant numbers of nostalgically dedicated party-faithful? For the same reason that there remain more than a handful of Empire-loyalists both in the UK itself, and, astonishingly, even among the “natives” of post-colonial states; for the same reason that there are plenty of Sukarnoist-jingoistic nationalists in Indonesia, for the same reason that even after a century of powerfuly-enforced secularism in Turkey there remain more than a few devout, faithul, Ottoman-revering Muslims - and, conversely, for the same reason that should Turkey be an Islamist theocracy a century from now that there will still be a core of utterly dedicated Kemalist hyper-secularists.
    It has nothing to do with the actually ideologies in question…

    As for communism in Indonesia - and what happened to the communists (and sundry others so-labelled): absolutely, the glaring, ignored wound in the nation’s history; something wrapped in such a mass of untruth, myth and propoganda that it is perhaps impossible to be objectively recovered, and something that ought, absolutely to be discussed, but which, as you say, is almost as unmentionable as the Armenian Genocide that squats in all its grotesquery at the dawn of modern Turkish history…

    And both countries need to adress these ghastly “elephants in the room” at some point if not to remain ever a little stunted in their nationhood…

38. Achmad Sudarsono Says:
    March 26th, 2008 at 8:13 am

    Ross,

    You just can’t take The Truth, or when an Indonesian Tells You Like It Is. Anyone who’s still rabbiting on about the “Reds” in 2008 deserves to be insulted or mocked. Your literary comments on Pramoedya aren’t worth commenting on.

    Timdog, is definitely thoughtful. Unfortunately, he seems to think this Blog is an academic journal and that people will read 1,000 words plus of prose.

39. Achmad Sudarsono Says:
    March 26th, 2008 at 8:19 am

    P.S - Ross,

    Ultimately, prison camps, mass murder, and denial of basic freedoms are fuelled by the kind of ignorance, shallow thinking and half-baked arguments you’ve made your trademark.

40. Ziad Says:
    March 26th, 2008 at 9:27 am

    Timdog, I am more of a libertarian who thinks that communism has to be democratic by definition, which makes me closer to the anarchist side of the socialist family (although I believe there should be a broad diversified leftist coalition), however I feel the urge to defend communists against generalizations, so if one can still find bright spots in the legacy of Eastern Europe, how come there persist in Indonesia this dark view of communists (despite them being the victims in this case).
    I am just arguing that communism is a political view that is legitimate and needed as a force in society that can voice the concerns of a segment of the population; communism might not be the best solution to Indonesia’s problems but looking on its current political landscape the communists can be way ahead most of the players. A society that is threatened by globalization and subjected to multinationals’ looting is in need for every progressive element including the communists who in turn has to reinvent themselves in order to be compatible with (illusionary) democracy of the postmodern era.

41. Ross Says:
    March 26th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    Now ain’t that a shame. Just when we get two guys arguing like people with brains -I mean Ziad and Timdog, - Achmad the Rude Supercilious Expat slimes back to soil the screen with more tripe. He’s a proven liar, who makes up his personal abuse as he goes along, and just who is that little chap in the photo beside his posts- over 17, one hopes?

    Communism was and is all over the place. It has enacted more holocausts than Hitler ever dreamed of. Indonesia was lucky to avoid it. Enough said -though yes, Ziad and Timdog, you make fair points about communism having had to skip the economic rubbish and use capitalism to keep going.

    But their political dogma remains, one-party tyranny, education used to poison minds (like Max Lane wanted here, forcing the youngsters to read Red Pram) and that is still (yes, in 2008, Achmad) what Castro (Raoul now, Fidel before) foists on the poor Cubans, who have never had a whiff of the freedom those fraternal fiends promised.
    Vietnam and Laos are run (in 2008, Achmad) by Communist Parties that subjugate all opposition.
    China - Red China, not Free China - hasn’t had political liberty since Owen Lattimore and his pinko pals pulled the rug out from under the good guys in the Chinese Civil War. Whines here from A.R.S.E. etc that Chiang Kai Shek’s regime was ‘undemocratic’ but Free China has emerged from it, whereas the Mao Beast’s heirs still (in 2008, Achmad) refuse their subjects any say in government.

    Okay, there are lots of millionaires in Beijing and even the poor urban workers eat better ( though the peasantry are still incarcerated in red-imposed stagnation) but what good is prosperity without the right to run your own country?
    We know left-libs like Achmad refuse to recognise the evil that communism does ‘in 2008,’ because he is either a completely brain-dead ninny or a fellow-traveller - I think the former is more likely; fellow-travellers usually evince more skill in their use of arguments.

42. Achmad Sudarsono Says:
    March 26th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

    Ross,

    By all means, keep going with your line that the “Reds” are a danger right now. Go ahead. I dare you.

    All I’m asking is that people keep to basic standards of writing: short, sharp, clear.

    As for your own writing, same thing, sunshine. Short, sharp, clear. Repeat it. Again and again.

    Add a spicing of logic in there and you’re ready to go, Big Fella.

    But some friendly advice is just to shut up about the “Red Menace,”. As mentioned, seriously, sunshine, it’s 2008.

    Finally, why do you think I’m an Ex-Pat ? Could it be you think its impossible an Indonesian writes better English than you ?

43. Ziad Says:
    March 27th, 2008 at 12:18 am

    Let us try to quantify things in order to evade generalizations (though I am not a fan of qualitative approaches). There have been three major communist revolutions:
    • The Russian (Bolshevik) revolution was the only successful post WWI revolution, the German and Hungarian revolutions were ill fated. It is important to bear in mind that Russia was not an industrialized country; industrialization was a pre-condition for success according to Marx .
    • The Chinese Maoist revolution that wholly departed from Marx’s scheme.
    • The Cuban revolution that followed the Chinese path but came in different cultural, social, and economic conditions.

    Eastern Europe was annexed by the triumphant Soviet Union after WWII, only defunct Yugoslavia had a substantial communist party that was on the verge of controlling the country, the rest of it witnessed a soviet dominated impositions of so called communist regimes. Vietnam was more of a prolonged liberation and anti-colonial struggle and soon after the departure of the Americans, burdened and exhausted Vietnam turned to market economy in 1984. The Sandinistas in Nicaragua were not able to consolidate their power for long although they left a generally positive legacy, (they allowed democratic elections even after their final military success and willingly passed the power to their opponents) and remained popular which allowed their current return to power.

    There were also several democratic ‘attempts’ (against all odds) to gain by the ballots, Spain was the earliest tragedy, they were soon massacred by the Fascist phalange in 1936 after their electoral victory, Chili in 1973 followed a similar path and the democratic process was violently aborted, Italy with the help of the US, the CIA the Vatican and other major European nations kept the communist party (that remained for long Italy’s biggest political party) away from power. Know if I would want to add to this a list of the countries that banned communism or subjected communists to discriminatory measures the list would be very long.

    My analysis would be: The ‘revolutionary’ communism was tainted by Stalinism and the specific experience of Russia an agrarian economy not wealthy enough to sustain adequate levels of production to guarantee good standards of livings, for this and for many other reasons Bolsheviks under Stalin resorted to excessive and indiscriminate terror, they later introduced these practices to East Europe, but apart from Russia there was nothing that can be described as “genocide”! although societies were monitored and controlled the level of political violence is highly exaggerated in those countries.
    Chaing Kai Shek definitely was not the good guy in China’s case it is him who declared the war on Mao. Mao’s legacy is highly debated but as a faithful Stalinist he left many casualties behind him, however in both cases you do not need to talk about “genocide” to make a point about excessive and indiscriminate use of political force that should be condemned by everybody. Nevertheless, I would not consider this an inherently communist behavior, Suharto, Pinochet, Franco, Saddam… and many others prove that anti-communism can match and exceed communist tyranny, now the market forces prefer to prosper under a democratic ‘outlook’ but only after the radical danger is eliminated by Suharto like dictators, this is why the US dumps its puppets from time to time.
    Cuba is a more complex case, Castro’s country have a vivid cultural life where you can see daring criticisms of the regime (look at the movie Fresa Y Chocolate) a respectful educational system, good doctors and higher life expectancy than all of the Americas including the US. Cuba being a single party state is surely not the best democratic example, but the regime is not a brutal one, there haven’t been political executions in Cuba since a long time ago, while countries like Colombia, Salvador and Guatemala (democracies by US standards) witness systematic eliminations of leftist oppositions. Isn’t ironic?!
    Now if you deny social change you will get revolutions, when you corner revolutions you turn them to tyrannies and accidentally abort the revolutionary process. But change has to come it has to find its way … the point is to make it democratic.

44. dewaratugedeanom Says:
    March 27th, 2008 at 12:37 pm

    I would like to propose for Patung to create a special site for politico-scientific wankers where they can enjoy to revel in pompous jargon instead of conveying their opinions in a concise and clearly understandable prose that may be a benefit for all of us.
    Esoteric rants like these make one lose his interest in politics.

45. Ross Says:
    March 27th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

    Right!
    Achmad the Rude Supercilious Expat now denies he’s a foreigner. My orginal assumption was based on his sheer crass rudeness and his taste for a toilet-talk standard of ‘debate’ (though he has yet to debate in any meaning ful way.
    Indonesians are usually courteous, and apart from dreggy sorts who learned bad ways in overseas unis, keep their arguments on a civil level.
    Then ARSE began to lie like fury (his motivating force, fury, never a glimmer of humour in that dull, pedestrian prose) and a stream of mendacity flowed out, concerning my clothes, my computer, my social life and even concerning the age of the mythical bar-girl I allegedly encountered (he must have got a lot closer, if he inspected her ktp to learn her age!) In fact, the last 17 year old I had such fun with was probably around my first year at uni, when I was 19, which is not exactly a reprehensible relationship. Why the lies, ARSE- what have you got to hide?

    So he’s a liar, a bore, and lacks even the pretence of concern for oppressed people, whether in Hanoi, Vientiane, Lhasa, Beijing or Havana. Blindly he repeats his inane mantra, there is no communist horror today, even as its victims fall bleeding on Himalayan roadside. - what a dumb, heartless klutz!

    Okay, a few days off have enabled me to wind up the compsymp creep again, so I am back to work on Saturday. He can bottle up the spleen till I have time to goad him some more, next month.
    He’ll be busy celebrating his special day next Tuesday, of course.

46. Achmad Sudarsono Says:
    March 27th, 2008 at 7:30 pm

    Hey Folks - who’s more fun to read - Ross or me ? Anyone, Bueller, anyone ?

47. Janma Says:
    March 28th, 2008 at 10:47 am

    Achmad, you and Ross go together like a horse and carriage….
    no fun without the other!
    Bueller? Who is he? LOL

48. Achmad Sudarsono Says:
    March 28th, 2008 at 12:52 pm

    From 1986 American film Ferris Bueller’s day off. Teacher is explaining supply-side economics in a sleepy Chicago class room, asking for a student response, “Bueller, anyone, anyone…?”

    What do you think about our Insult-a-Thon ?

49. Country man Says:
    April 24th, 2008 at 8:01 am

    Wow..there many mixing thing among Pram products in literature, Pram political belief, communism in general ters, Member of communist party in Indonesia performance and their understanding of Communism, Socialism in general and Socialism bigot…..Pram is no doubt is a fanatic Commie…his products are woth to be applaused venthough very strong influenced by his political belief ..Whera are you all when Pam is the Chairman of LEKRA ?

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