FGM

Mar 3rd, 2008, in IM Posts, by

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446 Comments on “FGM”

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  1. avatar Purifying Breeze says:
    May 9th, 2008 at 6:30 am

    Shloka said

    “I would also like to add that, Female circumcision also happens in tiny pockets of India. Guess who do it? The Muslim Bohras.Islam took the veil from Persia and carried it all over the globe. Likewise, it took circumcision from Egypt(probably) and it happens in parts of Lebanon, Jordan, Iran and Iraq.”

    Why in the world are you blaming female circumcision on Islam? It predates Islam and I think you know that. Just to let you know, it’s done by many other people who are not muslim, its also practiced by the Christian religions and the Jewish religion. It’s not a religious practice, it’s a cultural one. I don’t know if you’re trying to help to stop female circumcision, but if you are, you definitely won’t succeed if you keep blaming people for it. How about you just accept the fact that it’s done, and try to do something about it.

  2. avatar Cukurungan says:
    May 9th, 2008 at 7:45 am

    Oh yeah, that good old Pancasila. She seems to be terminally ill lately. If we let die the first sila and try to cure the other four silas she still can be of some use in Indonesia.

    Agreed she was ill lately because it is too long to be memorized and too ideal to be implemented therefore we will consider your recommendation seriously but with little bit modification. We will keep the fist sila intact while delete the other four silas because the first sila already proven to become backbone of our survival during 350 years the infidels oppression.

  3. avatar Shloka says:
    May 10th, 2008 at 12:47 pm

    Purifying Breeze, I know that female circumcision predates Islam and is not limited to Islam.However, Purba Negoro had said,”Now as a Javanese- I proudly can tell you my daughter was sunat- in Central Java this means a Imam cutting a bay leaf in a purely symbolic Hindu era ceremony. She has all of her equipment.” I wanted to clarify that, female circumcision does not and has never happened in India. Female circumcision does not happen anywhere male circumcision does not happen, and Indian Hindu boys are not circumcized either. But though Christians also have female genital mutiliation in Africa, it is absent in U.S.A., Europe, Australia, Central and South America, Korea, India and in every other place where Christianity exists. Why does female circumcision also happen in parts of Yemen, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Indian and Pakistani Bohras, Indonesia and Malaysia? Further there is an alleged hadith by Prophet Mohammed to Umm Attiya, a women who excized girls,” Do not cut too harshly for it is better for the woman and for her husband.”

    Also the fact that female circumcision predates Islam is irrelevant. The veil, polygamy, marrying girls right after menarche,wife beating the term Allah for God( Prophet Mohammed’s father was called Abd Allah) all predate Islam.

  4. avatar Janma says:
    May 12th, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    I wanted to clarify that, female circumcision does not and has never happened in India. Female circumcision does not happen anywhere male circumcision does not happen, and Indian Hindu boys are not circumcized either.

    She said, in islamic communities in India it happens and it does and for sure their boys are circumcized too.

  5. avatar Shloka says:
    May 14th, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    Purba Negero, I would be delighted if you could give the slightest evidence of female circumcision among any Hindu\Buddhist communities anywhere on Earth, or at any time in Hinduism’s 5000 year history and Buddhism’s 2500 year history. Another priceless gem from a Muslim scholar of Egypt’s Al Azhar University. Muhammad Al-Mussayar: “First of all, there are reliable hadiths in Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim which support female circumcision. The Prophet Muhammad said: ‘If a circumcised woman and man have intercourse, they must undergo ablution.’ Unreliable hadiths do not cancel out the reliable ones. We have unreliable hadiths regarding prayer, fasting, charity, and pilgrimage. Should we abolish prayer and charity just because some hadiths are unreliable? According to some hadiths in Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim, ‘If a circumcised woman and man have intercourse, they must undergo ablution.’ People would curse one another by saying: ‘You son of a clit woman’ – the son of a non-circumcised woman. The objections to circumcision are illogical and unnatural.

    Regarding the claim that the instruments are not sterile – this is the reality and is not part of religious law. If there are dentists who do not sterilize their instruments, should we abolish medical faculties and dental clinics, or should we demand that they rectify the situation? Flawed reality cannot serve as a religious argument. The claim that female circumcision leads to barrenness is not true. The Muslim woman bears more children than any other woman. It is the Western woman who is barren, even though she is not circumcised. Moreover, when talking about nervous breakdowns… This is considered a day of celebration for the family.”

  6. avatar Janma says:
    May 15th, 2008 at 1:05 pm

    The Muslim woman bears more children than any other woman. It is the Western woman who is barren, even though she is not circumcised.

    talk about flawed and circular arguments? Or maybe I’m just not understanding the point?

  7. avatar John Green says:
    May 17th, 2008 at 2:07 am

    Shloka

    You are mistaken. It is the practice of circumcision that is illogical and unnatural. As a Moslem, you believe that mankind and all the other animals were designed and made by God. Why would God provide women with a clitoris and men with a foreskin if She thought that these were undesirable structures and needed removal? Has God decided that there is a design flaw here?

    The bible and the Quran teach us that God made man and women in Her own image. Does this mean that God has a clitoris? Or has God had her genitals mutilated? I bet you don’t know the answer to this one.

    The reason why Moslem women generally have more children is that most of them live in third-world countries where the use of contraceptives is not widespread. It has nothing to do with circumcision, nor does it suggest that non-Moslem women are “barren”.

    The one argument in favour of male circumcision is that it reduces the incidence of uterine cancer. This is important in third-world countries where standards of personal hygiene are lower. In developed countries, where the standard of personal hygiene is higher, this is not an important factor. Don’t you think that it is better to wash your penis frequently than to have it mutilated?

  8. avatar Hugh says:
    May 17th, 2008 at 4:38 am

    John Green wrote:

    The one argument in favour of male circumcision is that it reduces the incidence of uterine cancer.

    It’s amazing how many “one argument”s in favour of male circumcision there have been. See the list at circumstitions.com.
    The claim about cervical cancer was based on the observation that Jewish women got it less than gentile women (without actually knowing the husbands’ circumcision status), but when they compared gentile wives of circumcised men with gentile wives of intact men, the correlation disappeared. More recently, Castellsagué et al. pooled five studies from five different countries, none of them showing a significant correlation, and found one – because women in the Philippines, where men are circumcised, got less HPV (Human Papilloma Virus) than women in the other countries. (Some strains of HPV are risk factors for cervical cancer. He only found a slight difference in cervical cancer itself for some high-risk groups.) But the factoid that “circumcision prevents cervical cancer” was afoot again. Circumcision (male or female) is a “cure” in search of a disease.

  9. avatar Shloka says:
    May 17th, 2008 at 10:12 am

    John it is you who are mistaken. I am not muslim, but Hindu. In speaking about female circumcision I was criticizing Muslims. By the way, the Muslim birthrate worries me as an Indian. The Indian Muslims, like all Muslims, have one child more than Hindus on average, they are India’s poorest and form a larger % of the jail population. By the way, my name Shloka, means Sanskrit verses.

    Also, I was quoting Muhammad al Mussayar, to show that, female circumcision is indeed Islamic and has nothing to do with Hinduism. If you know Indonesia,s history, it was a Hindu country before becoming Islamic. Some Purba Negero on this site said that he had his daughter circumcized in a Hindu ceremony. I wanted to clarify that, his act was entirely islamic. Hinduism, my religion, like all religions has not always been perfect but has NEVER had male or female circumcision.

  10. avatar Ron Low says:
    May 19th, 2008 at 1:45 am

    ^^ I was quoting Muhammad al Mussayar, to show that, female circumcision is indeed Islamic ^^

    It’s amazing, then, that something so essentially Islamic was left out of the glorious Qur’an, don’t you think?

    The Qur’an does say several things about the perfection of creation. The body needs no alteration:

    - 3:191 Our Lord, you have not created all this in vain! Glory to you! Protect us from the punishment of the fire.

    - 15:28-29 Your Lord said to the angels, “I am creating a human being from aged mud, like the potter’s clay. Once I perfect him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him.”

    - 32:7 He is the One who perfected everything He created, and started the creation of the human from clay.

    - 82:7-8 The One who created you, designed you, and perfected you. In whatever design He chose, He constructed it.

    - 95:4 We created man in the best design.

    All people have a basic human right to a perfect unmutilated body.

  11. avatar Justin Et says:
    May 19th, 2008 at 6:14 am

    Actually, fgm is obligatory for Shaf’i Muslims, which almost all Egyptians are. Check it out: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/2008/01/019729print.html. And it’s often a lie that the clitoris itself is not excised. Egyptian doctors will tell you that that’s the case, but the actual excision of the clitoris IS, in fact, obligatory. Check out the actual translation vs. the “official” translation from Arabic at the bottom of the page in the link.

    Also, fgm is NOT usually performed on babies. It is usually done on girls 8-12 years old. It is part of the process of the sexualization of children, which is an integral part of Islam. It’s not uncommon to marry off (whore away) one’s daughter before she is 10 years old in every Muslim country. They will you that it is betrothal, but it is not. The Pervert Muhammad married a 6-year-old when he was 53, and sexually abused her until she was 8 years 9 months old, when he started full-on raping her. Islam, however, has no concept of rape or consentual sex. MArriage in Islam is institutionalized prostitution, and women are reduced to nothing more than parasitic sex slave baby factories, and they aren’t even allowed to enjoy sex. And all women must belong to some man as his absolute property (slave), whether as a child, a wife, or a concubine. Pretty messed up.

  12. avatar Shloka says:
    May 21st, 2008 at 1:06 am

    So no mention of female circumcision in the Koran right? I knew that. But male circumcision is not in the Koran either. Islam has three guidelines the Koran, the Hadith and the Sunnah. I have posted the relevant hadith and shown that it was sunnah in the Prophet’s time by Muhammad al Mussayar’s quote.

  13. avatar Cukurungan says:
    May 21st, 2008 at 5:06 pm

    Actually, fgm is obligatory for Shaf’i Muslims, which almost all Egyptians are. Check it out: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/2008/01/019729print.html. And it’s often a lie that the clitoris itself is not excised. Egyptian doctors will tell you that that’s the case, but the actual excision of the clitoris IS, in fact, obligatory. Check out the actual translation vs. the “official” translation from Arabic at the bottom of the page in the link.

    Also, fgm is NOT usually performed on babies. It is usually done on girls 8-12 years old. It is part of the process of the sexualization of children, which is an integral part of Islam. It’s not uncommon to marry off (whore away) one’s daughter before she is 10 years old in every Muslim country. They will you that it is betrothal, but it is not. The Pervert Muhammad married a 6-year-old when he was 53, and sexually abused her until she was 8 years 9 months old, when he started full-on raping her. Islam, however, has no concept of rape or consentual sex. MArriage in Islam is institutionalized

    prostitution, and women are reduced to nothing more than parasitic sex slave baby factories, and they aren’t even allowed to enjoy sex. And all women must belong to some man as his absolute property (slave), whether as a child, a wife, or a concubine. Pretty messed up.

    I hope that Mr. Ali Sina does not pick wrong guy to join in this forums because previous performance of graduated of Free Faith Org was quite appalling most them were die young, get orgasm so quickly and only survive within few posting before they were finally end-up in overdoses, changed their nationalities or even changed career to become comedian.

    I would like to advice you that before you made comment on the culture and moral value of the other people, it will be much better if you spend sometime to trace back what is kind the culture and moral value of your self have been belonging.

    1400 years a go, in the middle no where of Middle East Desert, Arab Bedouin had been able to establish the rule of engagement between Man and Woman and we called it as Nikah or a social contract prior to Man is allowed to f**k Woman while in other hand the westerner up-to now are still battling and fornicating each other just like pig then how can suddenly the westerner with their semi pig culture declare themselves to become a judge to the other people who has much higher culture and moral value than themselves.

    Back to the topic, let me clarify that we have no appetite to discuss FGM or other moral issue especially to other people in which we consider as human with lesser moral value than us, how we can have proper discussion with so big gap as below:
    1) We consider sex before marriage is bad while the westerner consider it as the part of sex education program
    2) We consider abortion is sin but the westerner consider it as about choice
    3) We consider adultery is a BIG Sin while the westerner would say, it is entertainment.
    4) We consider threesome is disgusting while the westerner consider, it is amazing

    then how can the westerner get into discussion with us while we consider their moral value is quite close to the animal moral value rather to the real human, therefore we deeply regret to inform you that we still could not find suitable a moral issue to be discussed together with you however we are willing to inform to anybody what we do openly and clearly but remember this is only for information and not subject for your approval. We do admit that Indonesia Muslim practice so called circumcision for both male and female but it is not genital mutilation…we do admit that during circumcision also involve some degree of danger and we do not hide that there was also few mal-practice occurred however we believe that exposing our boy and daughter to the danger circumcision is still tolerable rather than exposing our kid to the westerner saint as below:
    http://heartlandvalues.blogspot.com/2000/06/never-ending-chronicle-of-church.html

    I do hope that the point I make is clear enough to anybody …remember that we do not care if you want to feed your saint with your own kid and you also do not need to care if we want to circumcise my own kid.

  14. avatar Lairedion says:
    May 21st, 2008 at 9:37 pm

    Cuk said:

    4) We consider threesome is disgusting while the westerner consider, it is amazing

    Brother, this is not a done deal. Like on all other topics les musulmans just can’t get to an agreement.


    Threesomes: Halal or Haram?

  15. avatar justin et says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 12:07 am

    @Cukurungan, who wrote:

    1) We consider sex before marriage is bad while the westerner consider it as the part of sex education program
    2) We consider abortion is sin but the westerner consider it as about choice
    3) We consider adultery is a BIG Sin while the westerner would say, it is entertainment.
    4) We consider threesome is disgusting while the westerner consider, it is amazing

    On 1): Yeah, we don’t have so much of a problem with sex before marriage. We also don’t murder little girls for being rape victims or mutilate them in order to preserve their chastity, thereby forever traumatizing them and robbing them of an essential part of their lives because our men aren’t so insecure that they can’t handle being compared with other men or having a woman with any frame of reference whatsoever, like we don’t all know that that’s about the extreme anatomical inadequacy of Arab men. We don’t end up married to people we don’t love or with whom we are sexually incompatible, and we don’t rape our sisters or throw our lives away before ever having a chance to experience being with different people or living generally. We wait until we are adults with some experience who know what we want before marrying, because marriage MEANS SOMETHING to reasonable, decent people. That’s why we’re not Medieval sicko polygamists. We also don’t hang people for adultery, or as we call it, living.

    On 2: We have all kinds of choices in the free world. We can spend our lives with whomever we want, instead of being pimped away by our families to our cousins or forced into institutionalized prostitution (marriage, or in Islam, slavery more accurately). We are allowed freedom of thought, expression, assembly, religion, sexuality, and movement without the permission of some a-hole who owns us outright like Muslim women. We, unlike all Muslims by definition, refuse to be reduced to three-year-olds psychologically, intellectually, and emotionally. Our women aren’t reduced to parasitic sex slave baby factories, and our men to animals.

    On 3: It’s called freedom, dude. You call it adultery. Muslim marriage is nothing more than institutionalized prostitution, so don’t try to paint it as something sacred. It is nothing more than a business transaction for the sole purpose of getting creepy dudes laid. They pay their wives monthly for the upkeep of their genitals. The ceremony itself is nothing more than a transaction based on money and sex. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, marriage is a beautiful thing, a real commitment (which I would never expect a Muslim to understand) done by CHOICE, and about LOVE and PARTNERSHIP, not OWNERSHIP and OPPRESSION. Judeo-Christians vow to “love, honor and cherish” one another, not pimp, hoe, demean, and abuse. And Judeo-Christian men get thrown in prison for raping and beating their lives. Islam has no concept of rape, since, in the Koranic view, sex and violence are absolutely the same thing, and beating and whipping are allowed “with restrictions,” but when women take men to court their testimony is worthless and they can’t reveal anything that happens in the home (where they’re chained up), thereby making it impossible to prove abuse, regardless of bruises, cuts, and disfigurement.

    4) The Koranic view of Heaven is nothing more than a big brothel for men to screw endless women and little boys. Muslims blow themselves up for that creepiness every single day, so don’t tell me Muslims think threesomes are disgusting. They literally die for the opportunity. It is the be-all and end-all of Muslim existence, sicko.: http://www.islamreview.com/articles/islamicheaven.shtml

    Finally, given the option, and I am saying this neither hyperbolically nor flippantly, I would rather die in a Nazi concentration camp than live as a “free” woman in the Muslim world. At least in a concentration camp, one knows freedom before being rounded up and shipped off to hell. AT least in a concentration camp, one has hope of either liberation, escape, or imminent death. Muslim women live without any concept of hope or freedom. They are born in, trapped in for the duration of their lives, and die in Satan’s a-hole. At least in a concentration camp, one is penned-in by their sadistic captors with zero freedom of movement with many friends, rather than forced to be alone all day. Isolation is considered the most extreme legal punishment in free-world prisons, and all Muslim women are subjected to that nightmare as a rule for their entire lives. When they have any freedom of movement (let alone thought or expression, for which anyone would be hanged in a Muslim country), that is the exception, not the rule, and it is rare and very limited. I would definitely rather be separated from my family and be able to love them and remember them fondly than endure them pimping me away to some a-hole against my will at 18 if I’m lucky, or more commonly, 11. Otherwise, they are equivalent. In a concentration camp, one is branded like a cow, which is FAR preferable to having one’s genitals sliced off and excised with scissors or glass without anaesthetic or antiseptic by some illiterate old skank with maybe 3 teeth in her head. In a concentration camp, one is shipped off to hell; in the Muslim world, women are born in and die in hell, and are forced to either whore their lives away or be captive to their maharam. One sadistic captor or another. In a concentration camp, one’s head is shaved; in the Muslim world, women are forced to wear the Medieval slave rag on their heads (in 120 degree weather, no less!), signifying that they enjoy metaphorically crawling around on all fours with a ball-gag in their mouths, a leash around their necks, and the name of the a-hole to whom they were forced to whore their lives away branded on their both their foreheads and their asses; it says to reasonable, decent, thinking, moral people: “I’m not a human being; I’m 96% vagina. I’m some a-hole’s property and I have no problem being reduced to a parasitic sex-slave baby factory. I don’t deserve human dignity, because if I had any I would probably just whore it away to some a-hole like I did my life.” And personally, I would rather be starved and worked to death and die early than live a long life of being raped, beaten, and generally mistreated and disrespected because it is infinitely less horrible and infinitely more dignified, which I would not expect a Muslim to understand (dignity, that is). Hitler treated the Jews with more respect than Muslim men treat their women. Period. And you can’t even see that. Sad.

    And don’t talk to me about morality. Islam has no morality. It has relative morality and narcissism. Morality is “don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t lie, and don’t traffic human beings as chattel because they hurt people and are evil actions from which no good can come.” Islam’s version is: “killing and stealing are extremely pious actions, when committed against non-Muslims, and human trafficking is our divine right because we are God’s chosen people, even though, given 1400 years, not a single one of us has ever made one single remotely worthwhile contribution to the world in any way, shape or form, and we are and always have been the world’s most violent, least literate people; and lying is always the right thing to do, no matter what the issue is at hand or to whom one is lying, just so long as it prevents us from actually taking any responsibility for our own actions or taking a long, hard look at ourselves, you know, because we’re without exception infinitely less mature and responsible than any brain-damaged 4-year-old in the free-world.”

    This is Islamic morality: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/AyeshaAhmed20729.htm

    Don’t even get me started on the lack of the Golden Rule in Islam. That’s why Islam isn’t a religion. Religions by definition base their beliefs and practices on morality and abide by an overarching prinicple, the Golden Rule. Both morality and the Golden Rule are completely absent from Islam. Islam does, however, meet every single criterion of a cult: http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina50218.htm

    and a Fascist political movement: http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1888

    http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/

    And of course Ali Sina is a joke to you. He’s an intelligent, reasonable, decent, thinking, moral ADULT. That’s necessarily ridiculous to a sadistic, hypocritical, evil, perverted, disgusting, Medieval, regressive 3-year-old animal, or as decent, literate, thinking people call it, a MUSLIM.

    ___________________________________

    Purba Negero, Muslim women bear considerably fewer children than Latin women, so it’s not that they are more fertile. They bear more children than Western women because they have no say in the matter, and if even they did, they have no access to anything that would otherwise justify their existence. They breed because they suffer from the false impression that it legitimates their existence, plus if they have children they are not penned-in in isolation. So congratulations: the existence of Muslim women is as justified as that of tapeworms. I would say that their existence is justified as monkeys, but that would be grossly unfair to monkeys. The jungle ecosystem is the equivalent of the human economy and monkeys help keep it in a constant state of flux, instead of just bleeding it and giving nothing back, making nothing but a negative economic contribution to it. Monkeys also grow up to be self-sufficient adults. Muslim women are never allowed to be self-sufficient, nor are their men, wich is only one of the reasons why they are all intellectually, mentally, and psychologically 3 years old. That’s why Muslim nations can’t survive without aid. Women who don’t work are all unfit mothers by definition. Abject failures. Women who are nothing more than maladjusted children incapable of self-sufficiency fail to raise their children to be anything more than maladjusted children incapable of self-sufficiency. Without exception. Furthermore, women who suffer from deep-seated feelings of inadequacy pass that on to their sons, obviously. Between Muslim men’s inferiority complex stemming from being the children of women who are reduced to parasitic sex slave baby factories and Muslim men’s inferioriy complex stemming from their obvious anatomical shortcomings (of the sex organs, with which we’re all aware, having seen the Abu Ghraib pictures; don’t tell me it was below freezing in there!), and their lack of education good enouh to be able to compete on a global scale, their behavior and mentality is completely explained. You have nothing to be proud of and everything to be ashamed of, and even worse, you can’t even be honest with yourselves about it. Again, sad.

    See http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/misogynist.htm for a brilliant explanation of how all of Muslim men’s shortcomings can be explained by the effect mysogyny has on their culture.

    Shloka, you are absolutely right about fgm not being a Hindu tradition. While some Christians do practice it in Ethiopia and Egypt, the simple fact remains that it is an abhorrent act that would only be accepted and not criminalized by a Muslim culture, and Christians in Muslim countries are in no way representative of Christians generally.

    HUgh, you are dead right about male circumcision. It also leads to 7 times higher rates of all STDs, based on a huge study of European and North American men. http://www.circumstitions.com/ Personally, I don’t know a single woman who would prefer a circumcised penis over an uncircumcised one. Uncircumcised penises are wider, have that cool gliding motion, and uncircumcised are men are much, much better in bed, since they don’t tend to have that premature ejaculation problem that uncircumcised men have. I consider circumcision mutilation no matter who it’s performed on, but when it’s done to a woman that is not even in the same ballpark. It’s like the difference between pulling your nails out at the roots and chopping your hands off.

  16. avatar janma says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 9:13 am

    Muslim marriage is nothing more than institutionalized prostitution, so don’t try to paint it as something sacred. It is nothing more than a business transaction for the sole purpose of getting creepy dudes laid. They pay their wives monthly for the upkeep of their genitals. The ceremony itself is nothing more than a transaction based on money and sex. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, marriage is a beautiful thing, a real commitment (which I would never expect a Muslim to understand)

    this is a biased and bigoted view in my opinion. you seem upset, but you can’t honestly say that all muslim marriages are arranged or are institutionalized slavery. or that ‘christians’ have the monopoly on beautiful, moral marriages filled with love.
    Its more a cultural thing these marriage contracts and seeing the woman as chattel, happens all over the world, amongst buddhists, hindu’s, christians and muslims, in many societies.
    I know many muslims (here in Indonesia at least) who were married because they fell in love, the marriage wasn’t arranged or paid for and the woman decided for herself.

  17. avatar justin et says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 11:46 am

    Marriage without a dowry is illegitimate in Islam, and for good reason. Should the husband decide to marry another woman, the first wife’s money (which is zero in this case) gets split among the other wives and their children if she does not have a dowry, since, chances are, she doesn’t work and even if she is capable self-sufficiency, it is not an option for Muslim women. “The fact that, in Mohammedan law, every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child wife or concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam ceases to be a great power among men” – Winston Churchill, ‘The River War,’ original edition of 1899. That’s a very generous quote, really. First, he calls Islam a “faith,” which it absolutely is not, since its teachings and practices are not based on morality and it does not abide by the Golden Rule, plus one would get the impression reading that passage that Churchill was unaware that the Koran, the Sunna, and the Sharia explicitly condone actual human trafficking, not just require that women be subjugated, oppressed, and abused. Furthermore dear, I’m familiar with taqiyya, and I know not to belive any Muslim who attempts to paint Islam as anything other than evil, hateful, sick, wrong, and disgusting, and I know that Muslims are required to commit it any time a face threat is made against your cult or any time you would otherwise have to aceept blame or take a long hard look at your culture. I notice you didn;t disagree with the part where I said that not a single Muslim has ever made a single worthwhile contribution to the world in any way, shape or form, given 1400 years to do so, or the part where I said that Muslim women are reduced to parasitic sex slave baby factories. I will admit, however, that not all Judeo-Christians marry for love and that many of their marriages couldn’t be considered anything other than prostitution. That’s true, but that is their choice, not a requirement. We don’t have to belong to anyone. I personally choose to never be married, as I believe marriage to be an archaic tradition for nobody but insecure losers who don’t think things through which has no place in the modern world, and that its only purpose today is to oppress gays by denying them a right to which straight people are entitled. But Muslim marriage does exist for the sole purpose of getting creepy dudes laid and making sure that women belong to somebody (in the case of marriage, somebody other than their family), since they cannot exist in their own right as human beings, or under any circumstances as full-fledged, free, diginfied human beings.

    Here’s what Nonie Darwish says about Muslim marriage:

    Moslem weddings are not a very holy event. There is the traditional virginity check of the bride among the less educated classes, the exchange of the dowry between the groom and father of the bride and the belly dancers that lead the bride and groom to the bedroom. As a teenager……….

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/831587/posts

  18. avatar djoko says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 12:35 pm

    Wow faithfreedom is getting a run today it seems.

    Probably too much to be bothered commenting on. I could do what justin has done and copy and paste things from a site like answeringchristianity or something, but there’s not much point. But I’ll just drop a few tidbits, only largely being able to speak from my own experiences as well.

    This by no means discounts the info put up by Justin (he’s not making it up, that stuff happens), but as time goes on (and people are somewhat tiring of it all), people are gradually giving up on the idea that Islam and Muslims are two separate things. What Muslims do and what Islam says can sometimes be two different things.

    With regards to Muslim marriage not being holy, the Prophet once said: “There has not been created any institution in Islam which is more favoured and dearer to Allah than marriage”. Closeness to God is about as holy as you can get. Granted the actual ceremony lacks any going around and blessing things as in a Christian ceremony, but this is largely because in the Islamic view (or at least the background I’ve been in closest contact to) individuals can not be invested with powers as representatives of God. Taking an oath before God is sufficient in Islam to fulfill this need.

    I can only recall from my own buku nikah as well that the two key elements to a marriage are love and compassion (mawaddah wa rohmattuh). This is because it relates to the following verse: “And one of His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest in them and He put between you love and compassion; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect” (30:21). Love and compassion are definately the main emphasis here.

    As for heaven only being fun for a man, it really is quite funny just how often some people (both Muslims and non-Muslims) take things literally with regards to the whole 72 virgins thing. Even particularly conservative Muslims I have spoken to generally say that heaven or paradise is something which is completely beyond the comprehension of human beings. As a result most of what the Qur’an or the Prophet says about heaven is in broad metaphorical terms, to try and give some kind of earthly understanding of something which human beings can not actually comprehend in this. The particular example you’ve pointed out there is the classic sex example of 72 virgins and so on, but there are others too revolving around food, drink and scents as well.

    There’s more to talk about there, but those are some of the main ones which stuck out for me. Once again I can only speak from my own experiences and understandings, but thats really no different than most of the anecdotal evidence that justin has provided for his own point of view.

  19. avatar justin et says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 1:01 pm

    First, djoko, I’m a woman. Secondly, Islam’s version of Heaven IS a big brothel…….

    [deleted by admin - don't copy-paste]

    Also, your buku nikah has 4 spaces for wives and asks whether the bride is a virgin, so that if she answers ‘no’ she can returned to her family so they can murder her.

  20. avatar djoko says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 1:13 pm

    @ justin

    First, djoko, I’m a woman

    Sorry about that! My mistake.

    In the meantime I noticed this too:

    Furthermore dear, I’m familiar with taqiyya, and I know not to belive any Muslim who attempts to paint Islam as anything other than evil, hateful, sick, wrong, and disgusting, and I know that Muslims are required to commit it any time a face threat is made against your cult or any time you would otherwise have to aceept blame or take a long hard look at your culture.

    Sorry to disappoint, but this is not ‘taqiyya’ (seriously I think I hear people who rail against Islam use this term more than Muslims themselves. In fact the first place I heard it was from someone who was having a go at Islam). I’m a Muslim and the points I put up above are my views and how I live according to Islam. They both provide another view of the issues you raised in your original post, while at the same time act as a criticism of those actions you mentioned based on Qur’anic principles and Islamic understandings.

    Of course if you don’t want to believe it or discard it as a deception or something thats fine, though I’m more likely to put you in the category of people with delusional paranoia like some Muslims who go on and on about Jews running the world.

  21. avatar Cukurungan says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 1:22 pm

    It did not take me very long to know where I belong. I now belong to the greatest and most moral country that ever existed on the face of the earth. The US Constitution and Bill of Rights were written by men in the Judeo-Christian tradition who told their citizens that their rights were given to them by their creator. These great men did not try to take any credit since one’s human rights are given by God not by man. Consequently, the citizens lived with relative internal peace and confidence in their government. This graceful country allowed me to practice any religion or no religion and gave me human rights I could only dreamed of under Islam. I am lucky and more than lucky, I am saved.

    Hu ha haha …oh ye see below :

    You can claim anything but statistic data below can talk better than your blabbering mouth:
    http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~ad361896/anne/cease/rapestatisticspage.html
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_vic-crime-rape-victims
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes

    I remind you please beware with your husband because He is searching some trick in this forum :

    http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/board/about467.html

    http://www.topix.com/forum/news/sex/TIL28A2LS63I3E6PI

  22. avatar Lairedion says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 2:04 pm

    justin et,

    It did not take me very long to know where I belong. I now belong to the greatest and most moral country that ever existed on the face of the earth

    Of course the Yanks are so much better with their history of WASP-based racism, slavery and the almost destruction of the Native Americans. And not so long ago they cooked up lies to invade a sovereign country in order to protect their oil interests. All great examples of moral behaviour…

    The world would be a better place without Judaism, Christianity and Islam….

  23. avatar Hugh says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    Cukurungan said: “…you also do not need to care if we want to circumcise my own kid.”

    Children are not property or slaves, and parents’ rights over them are not unrestricted (at least not in societies generally considered civilised). You do not “own” them and you cannot starve them or keep them underground for 24 years, or kill them or torture them, and it is only a failure of imagination that prevents people seeing that “cutting part of their genitals off” belongs in that list.

    Justin et said: “HUgh, you are dead right about male circumcision. It also leads to 7 times higher rates of all STDs, based on a huge study of European and North American men. http://www.circumstitions.com/“.

    Sorry, you’ll have to be more specific. I know that site rather well and I can’t find the reference. The page http://www.circumstitions.com/ has several studies showing no effect, but none showing a seven-fold increase or a large European / North American study.

  24. avatar justin et says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 3:19 pm

    djoko, taqiyya is an unconscious phenomenon among Muslims. Judeo-Christians call it taqiyya. Muslims call it normal. Muslims are trained to lie to themselves and everyone around them, particularly non-Muslims, whenever a face threat is made to them or their religion, or anytime that one would otherwise have to be self-critical or take any responsibility for one’s beliefs, actions, or statements. It’s not paranoia. It’s the knowledge that Muslims say one thing to one another, which is in itself wholly dishonest, and another to non-Muslims. Like when Muslims say that ‘jihad’ means ‘spiritual struggle.’ What they neglect to say is that is a Fascist attempt to overthrow every civilized society and replace it with the Caliphate, forcing everyone to either convert or live as 3rd-class citizens who must pay the jizya, usually by terrorism, always by force. Or when Muslims say that Islam is a religion of peace, and then cite verses from the extinct Proto-Koran that has been out of use by any and all Muslims since the early 7th century, replaced by much sicker verses dealing with cutting off Jews’ hands and feet, burning their eyes out with hot pokers, tearing their intestines out with hooks, and then mutilating their corpses “to delight the believers.” Read Nonie Darwish on the unconscious phenomenon of taqiyya:

    “Arabs deny their true intensions regarding Jews and Christians when confronted by the West. What they tell each other is different from what they tell non-Moslems. Image and reputation is of utmost importance between Moslems and especially in front of foreigners. Their first instinct is always to lie, even in situations that do not require lying, to show only the good side and shame those who don’t go with the lie for the sake of saving face. As a child and teenager I saw respectable adults who lied to present Islam in a flowery picture. I learned to ignore it and developed an internal sensor to stop hearing it. I could only talk to myself about religion and could never dare tell any one about my thoughts but I had to pretend a lot to survive.”
    http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=31623ACB-993B-4115-8736-71215C5A1705

    Cukurungan, don’t you think that the fact that nothing is considered rape in Muslim countries has anything to do with the fact that the rape stats are higher in civilized nations? That maybe the fcat that sex and violence are the same thing to Muslim men has any effect on the stats? Like, that maybe the fact that it is literally impossible to prove rape in Muslim countries might influence those statistics, since one would need 4 male witness to prove it, and since it is still the year 650 in every Muslim country, and as such, there is no access to rape kits which convict on the basis of DNA? Or maybe that if women admit to being raped they them get abused at police stations and then murdered by their families? Or the fact that husbands are allowed to rape their wives because they are slaves whose bodies they own? Huh?

    Also, I’m not married, nor will I ever be. Marriage is for pathetic losers desperate for some sense of approval or so insecure that they fear being left, and would prefer to spend their lives with someone who doesn’t want to be with them than be alone. Ew.

    Muslims commit the vast majority of rapes in civilized countries, which actually have factual rape stats, dumbass: http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/Fjordman51213.htm

    And my mom is a hot piece of ass for a 64-year-old, and a well-accomplished attorney who takes nothing from noone, and way too much woman for you, buddy.

    Lairedion, we invaded Iraq to overthrow a horrible dictator and give people freedom. Hussein threw out our weapons inspectors. He brought it upon himself. He knew what he was doing and that his days were numbered. Why else would he have invited us to overthrow his government? I’m not defending the genocide of the Native Americans, which was committed by the Spanish, not the AMericans, nor am I defending slavery, except to say that it is alive, well, and condoned today by the Koran, the Sunna, and the Sharia. Even in the few Muslim countries where it is outlawed it is still practiced unabated, kinda like the Iranian constitution provides all its citizens with equal rights. It’s a nonsense law that means nothing, because the word of a Muslim means nothing. And nobody who owned slaves could rightfully call themself a Christian or a Jew. The Jews simply never owned slaves, and the New Testament strictly forbids it, and tried to provide believers with pride in work, hence the carpenter-as-Messiah. That’s why it’s called ‘the Judeo-Christian work ethic.’

  25. avatar Shloka says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 4:24 pm

    Purba Negoro, I am yet to hear from you. Djoko, here are a few stuff about women and Prophet Mohammed’s wife beating. “Ayesha said, ‘I have not seen anyone suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!’” Bukhari. vol. 7, book 72, no. 715. [The "green" adjective is in reference to the bruising from the beating. In this incident, Ayesha brought to the prophet's attention a woman who had been badly beaten by her husband in a domestic quarrel. In response, the prophet did not condemn the beating, and "Allah" did not substitute a new verse in place of 4:34].
    “…He (Muhammad) struck me (Aisha) on the chest which caused me pain…” Muslim, book 4, no. 2127. [Mohammad's child-wife Ayesha tells of how the prophet struck her hard enough to cause pain, and an enduring memory of the event].

    “I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were women….[because] they are ungrateful to their husbands and they are deficient in intelligence.” (The Prophet Muhammad). Bukhari vol. 2, book 24, no. 541.

    So if you live like a good person its certainly to your credit. There are indeed some very beautiful verses in the Koran preaching eternal values. However there are some extremely belligerent, misogynist stuff there too. By the way Mohammed hit Ayesha, why not Khadija? Because she had all the money, he was financially dependant on her.It always amazes me when Muslims claim Mohammed was not a lustful man because he was monogamous with Khadija. She would have kicked him out if he wasn’t!Also feminist Muslims like Asra Nomani praise Islam’s women like Khadija while forgeting that she lived most of her life in pre Islamic times. It was pre Islamic Saudi Arabia which allowed her to be one of the city’s richest, most successful businesswoman, not Islam.

    Cukurangan, here are some stuff for you from the Penal Codes of Syria and Jordan, Muslim countries able to read the Koran in their mother tongue unlike Indonesia. In some countries such as Jordan, Morocco and Syria, “honor crimes” are also legally sanctioned and defense of the family honor is considered a mitigating factor. Article 340 of the Penal Code of Jordan, for example, provides for an exemption from penalty if a man kills his wife or female relative after finding her “committing adultery with another.” It provides for a reduction in penalty if a man kills his wife or female relative after finding her “with another in an unlawful bed.” Similarly, Article 548 of the Penal Code of Syria also provides an exemption from penalty if a man kills or injures his wife or female after finding her committing adultery or other “illegitimate sexual acts with another.” The law also provides for a reduction in penalty for a man who kills or injures his female relative after catching her in a “suspicious state with another.” Isn’t it strange that te few Muslim countries where honor killings are rare to non existant Indonesia and Malaysia where in this article itself the MUI said that the purpose of circumcision was to reduce women’s sex drive while in Sub Saharan African Muslim countries where again honor killings are rare the whole female external genitalia is chopped off. So Muslims use one of two tactics to preserve female chastity- Honor killings or female genital cutting. Also Saudi Arabia has already beheaded an alleged Egyptian sorcerer and plans to behead a witch Fayza Falih. The last time Europe executed a woman for witchcraft was 1781 ie. more than 200 years ago.

    Also, Djoko I would accept your difference of Islam and Muslims if it were only a few Muslim nations or a few Muslims. Unfortunately, the Madrid bombings, the Bali bombings, the London train bombings, September 11 and repeated terrorist activities in India prove otherwise. Lets see Civil war in Algeria killing thousands, rape laws in Pakistan(recently repealed) and Saudi Arabia requiring four male witnesses, polygamy in Indonesia and Malaysia, death for apostasy in Mauritania, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Hindus v. Muslims in Kashmir, Buddhists v. Muslims in Thailand etc all have a common cause. Incidentally not many Hindus in India even know let alone bother about the Muslim bombings in Hindu Bali, while Mahathir said some extremely rude stuff about jews and Israel. Muslims form a larger proportion of the prison population in relation to their population everywhere from France to Italy to India to U.K. and a larger % of the rapists in the Nordic countries. Increased sex drive from circumcision anyone. And if you want to mention the familiar ” colonial oppression” India and Pakistan both suffered. India with its huge size and population has a thriving democracy, Pakistan does not. Japan was forced to open up to the western world and later suffered a ruinous defeat in the World War 2. Buddhist\ Shinto Japan has a technological achievement, life expectancy and infant mortality Muslims in Indonesia and Malaysia would envy. Also in Malaysia, Revathi Masoosai a woman who converted to Hinduism was separated from her baby. Which Hindu\Buddhist\ Jewish nation did such a thing to an apostate? Why is Dan Brown’s book Da Vinci Code selling while Salman Rushdie has to fear for his life? THE COMMON FACTOR- ISLAM!

  26. avatar Lairedion says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 9:16 pm

    justin et,

    And nobody who owned slaves could rightfully call themself a Christian or a Jew.

    I might have missed something. Or does your OT contradicts with your NT?

    Leviticus 25:44-46: Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever.

    Not much difference between Torah, Bible and Qur’an.

    “Faith is believing what you know isn’t true” – Arthur C Clarke, 1997

  27. avatar Shloka says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 9:54 pm

    Cuk, a few words of Ayatollah Khomeini for you. “A woman may legally belong to a man in one of two ways; by continuing marriage or temporary marriage. In the former, the duration of the marriage need not be specified; in the latter, it must be stipulated, for example, that it is for a period of an hour, a day, a month, a year, or more.” And is this not prostitution and immoral sexual behaviour in a pious patriarchal Islamic nation?

    “A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual act such as forplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not comitted a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man’s four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl’s sister.” Child abuse in the name of Islam?

    Slavery was legally abolished in America in 1965, a century before Saudi Arabia, that too at the request of an American Catholic President Kennedy. Laos is an underdeveloped Buddhist country, Nepal an underdeveloped Hindu country. In both places women can dress as they please and are not stoned for adultery. However in developing Iran today and underdeveloped Afghanistan under Taliban before Christian Bush liberated them they would be. The Muslim world has nothing to teach the rest of the world but lots to learn from them. And Djoko I agree that the Islamic heaven has a lot of characteristics other than its brothel like features like good food and wine, but te 72 virgins are a key characteristic. Women would hate to see their husbands’ orgies there don’t you think. Oh I forgot the Prophet said that most of the dwellers of Hell Fire would be women because they are disobedient to their husbands’ and inferior in intellect Never mind if most criminals anywhere in the world are men! Please also show me a single word which Prophet Buddha or Jesus PERSONALLY said against women.

    Djoko, here’s a response I found at Answerins Faith Freedom.org by Bassam Zawadi. Probably this scholar knows more on the issue of cosmic brothel than you do.

    And those who believe and do good works. WE shall make them enter Gardens through which streams flow, to abide therein
    for ever; therein shall they have pure spouses, and WE shall admit them to a place of plenteous shade.

    The word here is AZWAAJ. In Arabic, it means spouse.

    Notice, the key word, SPOUSES. The houris will be our spouses. If a man has sex with his wife, is that immoral? No, of course
    not, she is his spouse.

    So I ask you, if a man can legitimately have sex with his spouse here on earth, they why can’t a man legitimately have sex with
    his spouse in paradise?

    Zawadi believes in 72 virgins in the literal sense. My point, even if they are spouses, would you like your husband having 3 other spouses on Earth and 72 others( probably much prettier than you and eternally virginal ) in paradise? Maybe all this obsession about virgins causes Infibulation in Muslim Somalia and Sudan which is equal to castration.

  28. avatar justin et says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 10:21 pm

    Hugh, I totally deserved that, btw. It was lazy linking on my part. Here are some sites with data backing me up:

    http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/STD/
    http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/STD/cook1/
    http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/STD/donovan1/
    http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/STD/dickson2008/
    http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/stds.htm
    http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/HIV.htm

    And an interesting article on why uncircumcised men are more fun in bed:
    http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/

    I can’t find where I read that there was a seven fold increase in STDs among circumcised men, but the general medical opinion seems to be that circumcision increases rates of STD and HIV contraction. The last article has an interesting explanation as to why.

    Shloka, hear, hear, sister! Khadija also owned her own business, which she inherited outright from her father. So before Islam women had equal inheritance rights, freedom of movement, it was not belived that their place was in the home, and men did not find it degrading to work under a woman. She also didn’t wear the Medieval slave rag, allow polygamy (as you stated), or put up with any sort of mistreatment. I love it when Muslims try to tell you that Islam improved the status of women. It reduced the status of everyone, if only because it outlawed adoption so that Perv Mo could rape his niece. This is how Islam elevates woman:

    Shloka, don’t forget female infanticide in Pakistan. Muslims are very holier than thou about the fact that the practice, which was already obsolete centuries before the inception of Islam, was supposedly ended by Perv Mo. But it wasn’t. Also, I have to disagree that circumsision –> rape. Most American men are circumcised and, while they do tend to be more promiscuous than uncircumcised men, they have far lower rates of rape than Muslim men. In fact, even though Muslims comprise only about 2% of the US population, they are responsible for more than half of all rapes, and disproportionately responsible for all violent crimes, which one would associate with drug use normally, but not so much these days.

    Lairedion, yes, the OT does in many places contradict with the NT, hence the purpose of the NT. Jesus Christ began His ministry in Nazareth with these words: “The Spirit of the Lord is on Me.to proclaim freedom for the prisoners.and release to the oppressed,” Luke 4:18. When the apostle Paul wrote to Philemon, concerning his escaped slave, he urged him to welcome back Onesimus “no longer as a slave, but.as a dear brother.as a man and as a brother in the Lord,” Philemon 16. Also, the OT has been reinterpreted and reformed many times, even by the most conservative Jews, the Hasidics and the Orthodox. It does in many places conflict with the Golden Rule, and where it does, the Golden Rule ALWAYS takes precedence and has for centuries. It’s a 4000-year-old religion. It wasn’t always as forward-thinking as it is now. It was actually so progressive as to preclude state religion. Why Israel doesn’t get with the program, I don’t know. I wholeheartedly support Israel, but I do wish they would abolish state religion.

    Also. Shloka, don’t forget to mention the obvious: that Pakistani immigrants in the West almost without exception ghettoize, while Indians prosper. Pakistanis bring down the nations to which they immigrate, while India is full of brilliant people which any Western country would be proud to welcome and call their own. The only difference is religion. Race and language are the same. Western nations need to change immigration policy so as to only accept immigrants from the top 50 countries in the HDI. Period.

    Shloka, I think you meant to write that the US abolishes slavery in 1865, not 1965. Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act in 1964. I’m not sure if that was a typo or if you had the two confused. Otherwise you’re dead-on.

  29. avatar Shloka says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 11:10 pm

    Janma,
    while there are indeed love marriages in Indonesia the country became Muslim only 500 years ago. You’ll find that in countries with a strong pre islamic heritage life is generally better. For eg, the Muslim world has had female Heads of State in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia ( previously and for a long time Hindu\Buddhist) and Turkey ( for a long time Christian and Ataturk being a great admirer of Western secularism) but no female Head of state in the Arab world. In the Arab world- Yemen, Oman genital mutilation, Saudi Arabia women not even allowed to drive while a father kills his daughter for looking at Facebook. Incidentally the rest of the world knows Jews are smarter without Mahathir saying so. A Jew Jonas Salk, invented the polio vaccine, while Muslims from Nigeria to India alleged it was a Western ploy to reduce their birth rates! Just do a comparison of Jewish and Muslim Nobel Prize Winners. Jewish scientists like Steven Weinberg among many others have openly declared their atheism and criticized aspects of Judaism and religion but still live without fear. However when a Muslim Ahmadiya Nobel Prize winner of Pakistan returns to his homeland he is greeted with death threats! Islam’s UNIQUE among today’s world faiths.

  30. avatar justin et says:
    May 22nd, 2008 at 11:27 pm

    And Shloka, don’t forget to mention that 200 Nobel prize winners are Jews, 139 are Christians, and while 6 have Muslim names, only 2 are actually Muslim. One was educated in the US, and the other in the UK. One did his research in the US, at a US university, with US money, and the other in the UK, at a UK university, with UK money.

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