New Order Relics

Feb 15th, 2008, in News, by

Whether the government should pay heed to fatwas issued by the clerics’ council.

Politician and the principal of an Islamic boarding school, Salahuddin Wahid, said on 14th February that the government should not give any special credence or weight to fatwas issued by the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI).

This country is based on the 1945 constitution and the basic law.

The fatwa against Ahmadiyah, and presumably the fatwas against other other Islamic sects, were based on a particular religious viewpoint, which the government should not heed, he said.

Adnan Buyung Nasution
Adnan Buyung Nasution

A member of the Presidential Advisory Council, Adnan Buyung Nasution, said the MUI was a relic of the New Order system, a means to control society. tempointeraktif

Surya newspaper front page
Surya newspaper front page.

Meanwhile, oblivious to this no doubt, MUI chairman Ma’ruf Amin said a number of parliament members have been petitioning the MUI to issue another fatwa, this time against Valentine’s Day, such as Anwar Saleh from the PBB, Crescent Star Party, who said:

It’s really needed.

Maruf said celebrating Valentine’s Day was obviously haram, or forbidden, but he wasn’t sure if a fatwa was needed, and no mention of any conspiracies. surya


63 Comments on “New Order Relics”

  1. avatar chammer says:

    Mr. Aluang Anak Bayang:

    When Moslems kill in the name of Allah, it is not violence because it is the duty of Muslims to protect Allah’s territory. Some innocent Muslims might accidently be killed, but Allah will look after them in heaven. This is how righteous our religion is. Islam is not a religion to fool around with like Buddhism or Christianity. We worship the real God, not another God’s creation.

    At first glance, one could read your post and think that the only reason that a Moslem would kill in the name of Allah would be in defense of “Allah’s territory.” However Islam teaches from the 9th sura (9:5;29 as an example) that the Moslem is to strive against the unbeliever until he submits (ie becomes a Moslem), pays the jinza or fights. Since the all the earth is the territory of Allah, every nation and people are a target. If you see this as “righteous” then you indeed are a good moslem, at least one who follows his book. Thanks for your honesty.

    chammer

  2. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    @ Chammer

    Thank you for sharing your thought.

    These days, it is trendy to follow the West and hates all Muslims. Allah swt had make it clear in the quran that the Jews should not be trusted, as they are constantly looking for ways to break up the ummah. The Christians are not to be blamed because they are gullible and always played into the hand of the Jews. Only a 3rd party (e.g the Chinese who are Atheist) can see who was actually the troublemaker. Majority of Chinese think America deserve the wrath of Allah swt by messing with the muslims.

    Salam,
    Your peaceful brother.

  3. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    Assalamualaikum Mas Cuk

    He he he because Mas Aluang Religion is Kahariangan”¦better for you never try to confront him otherwise your head will fly

    First, May Allah swt bring you peace and prosperity.

    Secondly, why is your head lopsided?

    Thirdly, I am a Javanese Muslim. I love nongkrong and maen perkutut.

    Wasalam.

  4. avatar Sylvester says:

    Sylvester,

    You’d better google the following modern Christian groups/persons:

    – Lord’s Resistance Army (Uganda)
    – Army of God (USA)
    – Lambs of Christ (USA)
    – National Liberation Front of Tripura (India)
    – Various Chrisitian Lebanese militia groups
    – Timothy McVeigh
    – Various South African white supremacist groups such as the AWB
    – Eric Robert Rudolph

    Be careful with your statements about nobody killing in the name of Jesus in the modern world.

    Ha ha catch u!
    The point is they are not supported by 99% of Christians, which means they are not considered Christians. Meanwhile, Al Qaeda, Hamas, JI, Amrozi & friends and many others Islamic terrorist organizations have a significant support from Moslems. Guess, probably some of them are here in IM, LOL

  5. avatar Lairedion says:

    Are you a Christian, Sylvester?

  6. avatar Cukurungan says:

    1) 8 millions Jews killed by Hitler (a Pious Christian)
    Oops no he wasnt but the Catholic Church have a lot to answer for

    The lot answer is the same with the truth fabrication

    2) 10 million of Indian starved to death by Christian Ruler of United Kingdom
    Mmmm..where did this come from?

    Read History of UK Christian role in Indian during 19 C

    3) 100 Millions of Red Indian and Aboriginal exterminated from the earth by Christian Anglo
    There were 99.5 million Red Indians?

    Pak Oigal have you passed the elementary school? why you can not understand simple subtraction and summation”¦another 500 thousand is the aboriginal

    4) 15 millions Black Slave killed during Christian Trans Pacific Slave Trading
    Funny I though Arab traders were raiding Africa to supply the market

    When Arab trader handed over the slave to the Christian trader, all slaves were still alive and the Christian trader made most the slave death during transportation to USA.

    Earth to CUK”¦Come on down, your oxygen supply is low

    I have enough oxygen but you may need to reduce you consumption on the local beer because it could probably damage your brain.

  7. avatar Sputjam says:

    Mohamed did not create the religion of islam.
    Mohamed was against pagan worship.
    The people who embrace the religion of islam indulge in pagan worship, by participating in the HAJ in mecca.
    All religion promotes some form of pagan/idol worship, which is against what was relayed by Mohamed.
    This verse posted by lairedion confirms everything –

    – Quran [2:62] says: Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

    You do not need a religion to believe in God. You merely have to submit to God by doing good and righteous deeds. It is so simple, but many do not understand.

  8. avatar Lairedion says:

    Sputjam,

    I posted this verse to try and explain the behaviour of monotheistic religion followers. I do not agree with this verse completely because it’s doesn’t address the non-believers.

    What do you think of people who do not believe in God but are righteous and do good deeds and what will happen to them in the afterlife if there is a God waiting there to judge them?

  9. avatar Janma says:

    Oh my God guys!!!!!!
    None of this is serving anyone!!!!
    Lets see who killed more…… if you killed less then you are better?
    If the christians killed people that makes it ok for muslims to kill people?
    Were all the aboriginals and native americans killed for their religious beliefs?
    What about the quakers and other Christians who saved many many runaway slaves in america…. they did that in the name of jesus…. the people who operated the slave trade did not do it in the name of religion, they did it in the name of economics…. and justru because of christians in the end it was outlawed.
    The whole point is to make things better, not look to the past and try to be worse!
    Cuk, how is the tallying going? Christians killed say 40 million people? How many the muslims got to go until they catch up? Wouldn’t want to be left behind dong…. gengsi!

  10. avatar Bogalakon says:

    …. The good debate is attacking the comment, not the person. Otherwise, it is just an endless cat fight by low level intellegence creatures.

    So far, all I can see here in IM is always a debat kusir or what you called an endless cat fight. Aren’t we here for commenting and mocking person with low level intelligence? So what’s wrong if I’m also trying to comment another low level intelligent person whose comment is only an irritation and prejudice?

    The true Christian is not just by baptism but have to follow the Jesus, that is love and care others. So, Christians never massacre others. In Islam, as long as you can say say syahadat and do 5x prayer, you are true Moslem, regardless whatever you are doing. This is the problem that Islam should fix to develop itselft.

    Again, what is your reference (if it’s not only your prejudice) in telling that true Muslim is only obliged to say syahadat and do 5x a day prayer? I’ve been a Muslim for all my life and I never been taught (even by what you will call a fundamentalist ustadz.) that to be a true Muslim is only about syahadat and shalat regardless what I’m doing. In Qur’an, it was said woe to Muslim who worship God but doesn’t manifest his prayer in his life, and God entitles Muslim who repulses the orphan as betraying the religion as it said in the Qur’an surah Al-Maa’uun.

    I intended quoting Qur’an verse about love and affection on my previous comment, but I wasn’t sure whether you would read it. Now because you ask me to, I will quote some of them.

    Actually there are a lot of verses regarding this, but I would like to put one of my favorites verse:

    “And among His Signs is that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.” Ar-ruum 30:21

    “It may be that Allah will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For Allah has power (over all things); and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” Al-Mumtahanah 60:7

  11. avatar Dragonwall says:

    Since someone said only God can issue fatwas, then why are these morons issuing fatwas saying this and that?

    They should be writing fatwas to their family members and make sure they screw around in the first place.

    The Justice Minister should make sure that these clerics do not overstep their religious authorization on the Judicial turf.

  12. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Janma said:

    the people who operated the slave trade did not do it in the name of religion, they did it in the name of economics…. and justru because of christians in the end it was outlawed.The whole point is to make things better

    Me :

    You tell me how to make things better …by mocking our belief and our clerics and without shame those infidels promoting their fake teaching.

    Before you concluded anything
    Let us traces back from the beginning of the posting who was initially started the garbage posting what I was done just put another garbage. The garbage get the garbage… don’t you think that is fair enough. Remember I am the entertainers dedicated to infidels and I will do my best to keep the infidels always smile in this short life.

    Regard,
    Aborigin Warrior

  13. avatar Djoko says:

    Since someone said only God can issue fatwas, then why are these morons issuing fatwas saying this and that?

    Well actually fatwas are religious advice/opinion, as opposed to law as such. So they have every right to issue fatwas, as they are mere opinion. It’s the equivalent of a scholar (not necessarily religious) commenting on some issue or another that they have researched about. If you don’t like their opinion, don’t follow it. Simple. Wouldn’t be the first time it’s happened. Just look at all the Islamic organisations in Indonesia (Muhammadiyah, NU, Persis, LDII, so on), which were usually formed on the basis of not agreeing with the religious opinions (fiqh and fatwa) of another group.

    Fatwas and fiqh are not an institution like the Catholic Church. The more that people who actually oppose fatwas perpetuate the myth that they have some great power (which they do not), the more they will continue to be a problem.

  14. avatar Sylvester says:

    Again, what is your reference (if it’s not only your prejudice) in telling that true Muslim is only obliged to say syahadat and do 5x a day prayer? I’ve been a Muslim for all my life and I never been taught (even by what you will call a fundamentalist ustadz.) that to be a true Muslim is only about syahadat and shalat regardless what I’m doing.

    This is the fact, not prejudice. Once anybody can say syahadat and do 5 x prayer, he/she will be considered as Moslem by other Moslem in general. Do not deny it! The point is easy to become Moslem (that’s why the number is increasing), but how many of them are true? I am questioning the quality of the Moslem. If love is one of basic Islam value (which could be implisitly mentioned in Quran), why there are so many violence in Islamic community around the world even among themselves? (Iraq, Shia vs Sunni, Afghanistan, MILF, Al Qaeda, Hamas, etc). Are these people are not true Moslem?

    To be honest, I also want to see good Moslem living together, but how?

    Back to MUI, are those clerics true Moslem?

  15. avatar Lairedion says:

    Were all the aboriginals and native americans killed for their religious beliefs?

    Yes, the mindset of the White Man was based on Christianity (Catholic Spanish, Portuguese and French and Protestant Dutch, English and French) as the only true religion and white supremacy. All savages needed to be converted, assimilated or killed.

    What about the quakers and other Christians who saved many many runaway slaves in america”¦. they did that in the name of jesus”¦. the people who operated the slave trade did not do it in the name of religion, they did it in the name of economics”¦. and justru because of christians in the end it was outlawed.

    What did the ex-slaves and other non-whites get in return? Institutionalized racism in the shape of many race segregation laws which still existed deep in the 20th century in Dixie (Southern States, Bible Belt). Murdering and lynching of blacks, Catholics and leftist Whites was a favorite passtime by White Southerners whose ideology was based on Protestantism and White Supremacy. KKK are the best examples of Godfearing, churchgoing Protestant racist murdering whites. Martin Luther King and Robert F. Kennedy gave their lives for fighting this backwardish culture.

    South African Apartheid was also based on White Protestant beliefs. Many South Afican whites (Boers) are descended from Dutch Reformed Protestants and French Huguenots.

  16. avatar Dragonwall says:

    Well actually fatwas are religious advice/opinion

    Then why are they stressing and trying to tell others to follow what they preach? Don’t you think that they overstep others jurisdiction of belief?

    as opposed to law as such.

    Even Yusril Mahendra had that drafted and Agung Laksono even have to check to see if envelopes was passed for that to be pass for enfrorcement. Don’t you think even a Minister is doing that, don’t you think that the clerics were thinking that the state law condones their existence to try and dictate other’s life?

    So they have every right to issue fatwas, as they are mere opinion. It’s the equivalent of a scholar (not necessarily religious) commenting on some issue or another that they have researched about.

    Right to issue fatwas in within the domain of the religion and not as a public statement that though that it will become a law. You may take that in your own interpretation that they are not but they were actually doing that.

    If you don’t like their opinion, don’t follow it. Simple

    If I were to issue a fatwa and tell you that you have to abide by the Zionist opinion would you feel kind of uneasy? Tell me honestly.

    Come to think of that, you should have thought further if you refer to as opinion. What when it actually happens and a conflict arises? When it arises like in Kalimantan and that again erupted into a civil commotion between the Dayaks then what? And what if there were a serious case of resentment and a riot occurs again then what?

    Have you ever thought of all these problems. Please don’t tell me that it will not or might not happen because it was just a religious opinion.]

    A religious opinion will not in any way discriminate and dictate some other people’s life. But this is.

  17. avatar Cukurungan says:

    The point is easy to become Moslem (that’s why the number is increasing), but how many of them are true? I am questioning the quality of the Moslem.

    Is it hard to become Christian? Because Jesus never f**k woman so any Christian Man who f**k the woman could not be considered as the true Christian any more… Is that you want trying to say…so no wonder why to become true Christian many Christian Priest prefer to consume a boy rather than woman?

    I am questioning the quality of the Moslem. If love is one of basic Islam value (which could be implisitly mentioned in Quran), why there are so many violence in Islamic community around the world even among themselves? (Iraq, Shia vs Sunni, Afghanistan, MILF, Al Qaeda, Hamas, etc). Are these people are not true Moslem?

    Why you concerning something that none of your business while there are still many Christian in Congo, Kenya, Columbia, Papua, NTT and Ambon are more deserve your service but you neglect them “¦.therefore much better for you save them first not us”¦. prove it to us that no more misery in Christian World hence all Muslim will be bowed to your will “¦Is that clear sir
    The violence in the Muslim world are just only emulating the violence in the Christian World

    To be honest, I also want to see good Moslem living together, but how?

    Simple dudes,…if You could shut up your mouth in saying I will save you …everything will be OK

  18. avatar Djoko says:

    @ dragonwall

    The way I see fatwas, and the way that most people should see them is as the equivalent of someone writing a book or an article in a journal – ie in the public sphere or as a ‘public statement’. These people are no different in that they want not only their views to be heard, but people to agree with and follow them. For example you wouldn’t write an article about how wonderful the New Order era was economically and socially just for the fun of it, the basic purpose behind you writing said article would be so that people would at some stage be able to take your view on that particular period of history as being the most correct analysis of the situation.

    Now just because someone writes an article about how safe and wonderful the New Order was, this certainly doesn’t mean you have to consider it as such does it? Similarly if the MUI wants to dish out fatwas in the full belief that people should follow them, they can do that all the want, but barring things being written into law, you don’t have to feel any obligation to do so.

    As for this:

    Come to think of that, you should have thought further if you refer to as opinion. What when it actually happens and a conflict arises? When it arises like in Kalimantan and that again erupted into a civil commotion between the Dayaks then what? And what if there were a serious case of resentment and a riot occurs again then what?

    Have you ever thought of all these problems. Please don’t tell me that it will not or might not happen because it was just a religious opinion.]

    This is precisely the reason why people have to come back down to earth and start treating fatwas as what they really are – religious opinion from informed scholars but not by any means absolute truth or law. The precise reason why you have violence taking place over these fatwas is that people are taking them far too seriously as the final say on a matter, rather than an opinion of an individual (or group) of scholars which can just as easily be edited, cut, amended or replaced all together. This is precisely what the opponents of particular fatwas should be concentrating their defenses on and work towards doing.

    People at the moment on both sides of the MUI argument have created a climate of (mis)understanding where everyone thinks that MUI is this massive leviathan ready to swallow the state at any time. The MUI would certainly like to consider itself in such an important light, though it has no right to. It has no real power (in terms of being an official body to establish public laws which everyone must follow), but is being invested with a lot of imagined power by both Muslims and non-Muslims at the moment. Disbanding the MUI at the moment won’t really do much, because people will just look for another large body to dish out fatwas for them (the NU and Muhammadiyah have their own bodies for this at any rate). What is needed is a change in the way that people think about fatwas. If you can get people taking them as what they are – opinion (albiet informed but still completely fallible) – you will create a climate where people will be able to deal with fatwas in a more level headed way.

  19. avatar Dragonwall says:

    Djoko

    This is precisely the reason why people have to come back down to earth and start treating fatwas as what they really are – religious opinion from informed scholars but not by any means absolute truth or law. The precise reason why you have violence taking place over these fatwas is that people are taking them far too seriously as the final say on a matter, rather than an opinion of an individual (or group) of scholars which can just as easily be edited, cut, amended or replaced all together. This is precisely what the opponents of particular fatwas should be concentrating their defenses on and work towards doing.

    You are right to put it in this way, BUT..BUT..How many of these clerics do sincerely belief in promoting what they say? NONE to be precise.

    First they say it is for the good of Muslimins, then suddenly everyone will have to follow them, then law was enacted to leash them, then suddenly debates and arguments on difference emerge from everywhere.

    THAT IS THE PROBLEMS. If a cleric were to clearly say to their followers and within their religious domain, not cuts, not editting , no if and no buts. CLERALY STATES.

    Then you and I won’t be in a different spot trying to figure out what will they come up next.

    Let me give you an example ok.

    Why are there so many mosque that could be built almost anywhere and not Churches or Viharas?

    Why are they carrying out prayers not within the mosques but block up the whole area be it a lorong or alley or street. It seems that everyone owes them a living and have to accomodate them. Then why are they not accomodating others.

    The moment there is something, which is considered to be none of their business, they will gang up, group up and suddenly they were every where wearing all kinds of headress. Twenty years ago no one seems to be wearing the Palestinians headress and now you can literally see them in a country that was so badly indoctrinated by Jihadists and Muslim Militants.

    Di you see any changes in the people who were Christians and Buddhist or Hindus? NO CHANGE.

    ISLAM BIG CHANGE. WHY? SMARTER? BRAVER? RICHER? NAME IT. IT’S ALL THERE. The moment we open our eyes, they were ready to make certain unorthodox move. Don’t you get fed up with them?

  20. avatar Murphy says:

    Fatwa is not law. It’s scholar’s opinion. Live with it.

    Criticism should be addressed to the government who politicised the fatwa for their own popularity, or the one who allows violence for whatever reason.

  21. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:

    Djoko said

    People at the moment on both sides of the MUI argument have created a climate of (mis)understanding where everyone thinks that MUI is this massive leviathan ready to swallow the state at any time. The MUI would certainly like to consider itself in such an important light, though it has no right to. It has no real power (in terms of being an official body to establish public laws which everyone must follow), but is being invested with a lot of imagined power by both Muslims and non-Muslims at the moment.

    They may not have real direct power, but their lobbying power is enormous, especially in a nation where belief in a Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa is written in its basic principles.

  22. avatar Bogalakon says:

    This is the fact, not prejudice. Once anybody can say syahadat and do 5 x prayer, he/she will be considered as Moslem by other Moslem in general. Do not deny it! The point is easy to become Moslem (that’s why the number is increasing).

    If you are talking is just about how to be considered as Muslim, yes, you’re probably right.

    When I was in high school, most of my schoolmates never did shalat, neither I ever heard them saying syahadat. But I considered them as Muslim, so did the teacher, because what? Because they said themselves Muslims. In other words, one may be considered as Muslim by simply call himself a Muslim. This is because Islam has no strict definition of what Islam is, Islam has only strict guide of how to be a Muslim. By definition, it’s hard to state whether one is Muslim or not, we can only state that one’s behavior is guided or misguided.

    Anyway, I’ve been longing for this statement “The point is easy to become Moslem”.
    After all the contemptuous on Sharia Islam, finally this statement appears which is in line with Al-Qur’an.

    “”¦Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put you to difficulties”¦” Al-baqarah 2:185

    (that’s why the number is increasing)

    You’re right, more and more people convert/revert to Islam because they know Islam offers easiness. The God concept is easy to understand, the guideline is easy to follow, and the life will be easier. If only people knew how easy Islam is, they will stop discrediting Islam.

    “We have not sent down the Qur-an to thee to be (an occasion) for thy distress,” At-Thaahaa 20:2

    but how many of them are true? I am questioning the quality of the Moslem.

    No Muslim can judge himself or the other as a true Muslim, as I said before, we can only affirm that one’s behavior is guided or misguided. In Islam, Heaven is God’s Prerogative, No one can guarantee himself deserves heaven, neither claim it’s undeserved for the others.

    why there are so many violence in Islamic community around the world even among themselves? (Iraq, Shia vs Sunni, Afghanistan, MILF, Al Qaeda, Hamas, etc).

    Violence happens in every society, not exclusive in Islam, I don’t need to mention it one by one, just watch the news and see how many violence occurs unrelated to Islam. I know you would say that there are only Muslims who do violence in the name of their religion.

    This is because Muslim Community always gets constant harassed from non-Muslim. Remember, Jihad concept was not popular in Indonesia until the westerner invaded our land. During the Dutch occupation, Jihad is the useful ideology for Indonesian to survive against colonialism, and I think it also happens in another Muslim country, Al-Qaeda was established during the soviet invasion in Afghanistan, and there were no Hamas until Israeli chased away Palestinian.

    To be honest, I also want to see good Moslem living together, but how?

    Thanks, I think every person wants to live in peace. In Indonesia, it’s not easy to eliminate in just a few decades a Jihad ideology which has been proven useful during centuries. It takes time for us”¦ mmmhhh for westerner to convince us that they have no more intention to plunder our land again. 🙂 peace

  23. avatar Janma says:

    When Arab trader handed over the slave to the Christian trader, all slaves were still alive and the Christian trader made most the slave death during transportation to USA.

    For your information, slavery was only abolished in Saudi Arabia in 1962. The Muslims were as big if not bigger slave traders than any christian country, and for longer…. so put that in your hookah and smoke it….

  24. avatar Oigal says:

    If only people knew how easy Islam is, they will stop discrediting Islam.

    Islam needs no help from others to be discredited..have you not been reading.

  25. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Um, Oigal, can u elaborate. Are u implying indirectly that other religions haven’t ? Maybe it’d be better to say “religion” has discredited itself. Or do you mean specifically Islam ?

    If so, why Islam, rather than Christianity, Hinduism, and even the iMac’s religion of choice, Buddhism ?

  26. avatar janma says:

    Maybe it’d be better to say “religion” has discredited itself. Or do you mean specifically Islam ?

    Actually, all religions are a credit to themselves. The purpose of religion is to inhibit knowledge, control the masses and to give one a feeling of superiority over others of different beliefs. According to these parameters all religions are going exactly as planned and are a credit to their names. Amen.

  27. avatar Odinius says:

    Dunno. I see the “control” argument for organized religion, but not for belief in the divine. I think a seriously overlooked aspect of religion is that it exists in large part to help people cope with the inevitability of death. In that sense no religion is really all that different from any other.

  28. avatar Teng says:

    Remember, Jihad concept was not popular in Indonesia until the westerner invaded our land. During the Dutch occupation, Jihad is the useful ideology for Indonesian to survive against colonialism

    Jihad was not a popular concept during the struggle against the Dutch. Indonesian independence was won by a secular struggle, especially the leaders. Only in Aceh it was sometimes referred to as a jihad.

    Indonesian independence has always been about the right of a people to govern their own territory, nothing to do with religion.

    Blaming the fact that “jihad” becomes more popular in Indonesia because of Westerners however does really fit the profile of the tendency to blame every problem in Indonesia on someone else

  29. avatar Bogalakon says:

    Jihad was not a popular concept during the struggle against the Dutch. Indonesian independence was won by a secular struggle, especially the leaders. Only in Aceh it was sometimes referred to as a jihad.

    I don’t really get the point, it seems that you’re saying that there were no Jihad campaign by Indonesian against the Dutch. I know the secularist were also struggle for independence, but saying there were no jihad campaign except in Aceh, mmhh?????, once again I don’t really get the point.

    Blaming the fact that “jihad” becomes more popular in Indonesia because of Westerners however does really fit the profile of the tendency to blame every problem in Indonesia on someone else

    This statement does also really fit the westerner profile of the tendency to be irresponsible for every problem they have caused.

  30. avatar Oigal says:

    Maybe it’d be better to say “religion” has discredited itself. Or do you mean specifically Islam.

    Probably correct, as someone who does not really understand this over powering need for some “big daddy in the sky” I have no issues expanding the net.

    However, as we are primarlily talking about Indonesia in this case (not the deep south nutters or the hillsong nutters in oz). Figure its a fair point. If you want to wear your religion on your sleeve both as person and as a Nation, it removes the option to look the other way when bad Sh#t happens as result.

    If you have some (?) of the nation’s leaders utilising religion to promote their own bizarre agendas as part of some divine message that only they can only understand (and why would big daddy pick such dipsh*ts) then its right to say the religion is being discredited along with the nation.

    all religions are going exactly as planned and are a credit toThe purpose of religion is to inhibit knowledge, control the masses and to give one a feeling of superiority over others of different beliefs. According to these parameters their names. Amen.

    Janma..you said it !

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