90 Comments on “Genocide”
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Janma Says:
January 24th, 2008 at 11:21 amI still remember the first multi-party elections in the villages after the toppling of Suharto. People thought they shouldn’t speak to each other any longer if they voted for a different party.
Me too Pak Dewa, at the time I lived in Denpasar and my neighbours who were farmers had a son who was a PDI fanatic, along with all the young guys in the banjar. They decided everyone has to put a PDI flag up in front of their homes. My staff told me this while I was standing on my back verandah… I was to say the least, somewhat outraged…. after all the struggle, we are supposed to be in reformasi and now these hoons were telling me what flag I had to fly, what party I had to support! I ranted on a bit and then I looked up and saw the lad from next door was perched on the back fence listening to me rave, flexing his muscles. I stared right at him in defiance while my javanese staff (who are scared of balinese) tried to smile and shove me back into the house…. I hurumphed and decided to take the dog for a walk.
Luckily I had a huge german shepard dog…. cause half way down the road the boys from the banjar came after me on their motorbikes…. they followed me down the street circling me on their bikes. They were shouting at me, telling me I had to put a flag up ‘or else’ sort of thing…. the dog went absolutely beserk….. luckily for me!
“piss off or I’ll let the dog go you jerk offs!”
So they left, and I continued my walk. When I arrived home again, the glorious red and black was just unfurling from the bamboo stick hastily erected on my front gate. Needless to say I was furious, but my husband was on the front verandah giving me the ‘leave it alone’ look……
and before I could decide what to do, my 10 year old daughter shimmied up the pole and ripped the flag down muttering in Indonesian “beras mahal kok, masih aja mikirin yang gak gak….. macamacam aja!”
The lads were standing watching and we were watching them, there was a high noon moment and then the tension dissolved…. they decided to let us be… and we didn’t have that flag up again. -
Janma Says:
January 24th, 2008 at 11:40 amhey, is it just me or does anyone else find it strange that Ross posted this article and then disappeared? Not one comment or refutation from him?! Maybe he’s yanking our collective chain? LOL
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Ross Says:
January 24th, 2008 at 1:11 pmNo, Janma, I was just busy. The level of argument and discussion on my piece is encouraging, with all kinds of interesting perspectives, so my purpose is served and I see no need for extra comment on my part, except to explain that I posted because that JP woman is so self-righteous, even more of a one-trick pony than I can be! But I had near me a number of books to check my statements, notably Dake, Hughes and that history of Kopassus.
I also made a point of talking to real people, on my daily bus journeys, to cabbies, and of course folks in bars, and got fairly broad, albeit impressionistic, feedback to the effect that many wrongs were committed under Suharto, but the PKI and its henchmen got little sympathy, partly due to their previous misdeeds, but also because Indonesians had a fair idea of the horror that would be unleashed if the Reds ever took power.
And I agree. -
Janma Says:
January 24th, 2008 at 1:23 pmRoss, I talked to quite a few people about this subject too…… Most of the people I talked to related that for the most part people who at that time followed the PKI didn’t really understand or care what communisim really was, they were attracted to promises or visions of land reform…. who can blame them? Isn’t communisim most often a response to class and economic disparity between a people?
As for Gerwani, they were mainly women who just wanted a better future, they gave sewing lessons, taught women business and other skills. Their main ideal was to follow the idea’s of Kartini. why do you call them vixens etc? -
Ross Says:
January 24th, 2008 at 1:49 pmThat’s why I always make a distinction between the sad fate of so many poor peasants, conned into communism and then killed for their folly, not for any wickedness, and the very evil people like Aidit, the Pyongyang wannabe, and Pramoedya, who was well aware of the true nature of the beast but hugged it to his bosom nevertheless.
One can sympathise with the women who got chopped for giving sewing classes -did many do so- but those who were out training in military matters were hardly hapless bystanders. SOBSI and ‘farmer front’ rank and file were NOT fair game, but the cadres were.
Glad I looked in today. For more, please wait till next Tuesday, when I’ll be back to read responses. -
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
January 24th, 2008 at 2:12 pmBook tips on the period, anyone ?
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spew-it-all Says:
January 25th, 2008 at 4:51 amOne can sympathise with the women who got chopped for giving sewing classes -did many do so- but those who were out training in military matters were hardly hapless bystanders. SOBSI and ‘farmer front’ rank and file were NOT fair game, but the cadres were.
So the brutal murder of SOBSI cadres were fair game? Oh my dear friend Ross, this is the demise of humanity, isnt it?
Your said that the dead of communist cadres were okay. Putting your logic: they have to die because they are communist. Isn’t it the same with the logic of Bali bombers: Australians and Americans people should die because they are bloody heathen!
I heard you are reading books on this matter, have you came across any information that says most unions, Gerwani, and the party members did not really know what happened? Even top leaders such as Sudisman and Nyoto were not informed but had to cope it.
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Robert Says:
January 25th, 2008 at 5:51 amAchmad Sudarsono said:
Book tips on the period, anyone ?
“The dark side of paradise”, subtitle:”Political violence in Bali” by Geoffrey Robinson.
This book has one chapter dealing with the massacre and one chapter dealing with the economic/political situation in the 1950-65 period. Other chapters deal with the history of political violence in Bali in earlier periods. The book gives a good, though dark view of the other -non tourist – side of Bali.
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January 25th, 2008 at 6:38 amJohn Roosa’s “Pretext for Mass Murder” is also a good source and an execellent history book. It relies on new evidence, post-mortem analysis by one of the movement leader, general Supardjo.
Harold Crouch: The Army and Politics in Indonesia. This book is written by political scientist and some accounts on the coup is well discussed.
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Neil of Newcastle Says:
January 25th, 2008 at 6:43 amTeam, still waiting for a mass-grave! Where are the bodies buried?
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January 25th, 2008 at 6:55 amTeam, still waiting for a mass-grave! Where are the bodies buried?
Here is a short clip on youtube about the excavation of mass grave. The mass graves are spread out across the regions. But mostly in plantations.
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January 25th, 2008 at 8:54 amRobert, Spew-it-all,
Many thanks. Anywhere I can get those in Jakarta ? (As a mere poet and ukuele player, i’m keen to broaden my education).
Ross — what are you reading ?
Also, Spew, many thanks for the YouTube clip — how did you find it ? Do you know how many of these groups are still up and running?
I heard that one family dug up a long-dead relative to give him a proper Muslim burial only to be attacked by local FPI/FBR type preman morons. The morons went away once they were paid.
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Olympus Says:
January 25th, 2008 at 9:22 amFor Books on the subject read:
John Hughes The End of Sukarno: A Coup That Misfired a Purge That Ran Wild
John Roosa Pretext for Mass Murder
Rex Mortimer Indonesian Communism Under Sukarno
All available in good bookshops in Jakarta, and all well worth reading.
The myth that the Communists were poor wee simple victims of a monstrous injustice is just that, a myth. A five minute survey at what the Communists did elsewhere in Asia (and indeed around the world) at that time should be enough to convince anyone that whatever about the later Suharto rule, Indonesia really did dodge a bullet big time in 1965.
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David Says:
January 25th, 2008 at 9:26 amSometimes they just buried the bodies in the main village cemetery, one obscure example being in the village of Sumbermanjing Wetan, near Kepanjen, East Java, there’s a corner of the cemetery which doesn’t seem to have any graves, they just dumped them there, or so people there say. I didn’t ask about it, people just pointed it out.
Not a book, but I suppose some of “The Team” know the ‘Report From East Java’, – right click, save file as, which I used here, and is listed along with many other books and reports on the subject at Yale (RTF download). Tons more stuff if you search around.
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January 25th, 2008 at 11:37 amFolks,
Anywhere to get these books in Jakarta ?
Patung, that’s interesting. Did they volunteer this information — or did you solicit it. I mean, it’s not something you casually mention over a kretek or a Teh Poci. “Oh yeah, there’s a 40-year old mass grave over there. Anyone got a shovel ?
But Kudos to our friend Spew for a nice post. As mentioned, I don’t think the likes of Ross and even the lovely Julia deserve a place by this piece. Julia seems to mostly write about her Pembantu or regurgitates bad post-modernist theories from uni.
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January 25th, 2008 at 11:41 amTry Kinokuniya bookshop.
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January 25th, 2008 at 11:58 amAhmad,
QB may have John Roosa. I strongly recommend Pretext for Mass Murder by John Roosa. Otherwise, you should try to order it online.
Roosa discussed some theories put forward by scholars such as Ben Anderson and Ruth McVey, Harold Crouch, Wertheim.Thanks for your kind word, Ahmad.
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January 25th, 2008 at 12:05 pmI’ve got the Hermawan book in Bahasa Indonesia. It’s got some good stuff, but I don’t dig the rambling, circular Javanese style of scholarship. They think they’re being Javanese. I just think they’ve had one few too many kreteks in those hot, un-airconditioned offices.
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January 26th, 2008 at 3:04 amPatung, that’s interesting. Did they volunteer this information “” or did you solicit it. I mean, it’s not something you casually mention over a kretek or a Teh Poci. “Oh yeah, there’s a 40-year old mass grave over there. Anyone got a shovel ?
I was staying with family there, 500 metres up the hill from their house is the cemetery. Somebody just said “C’mon I’ll show you the graveyard where the PKI are buried”. I think they just thought I’d be interested in it, which I was, but it was totally out of context of the conversation if I remember rightly.
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Dragonwall Says:
January 27th, 2008 at 5:22 amspew it all
Not that I do not want to believe PKI is a legal party. Then tell me this whose PKI is that, Soekarno or Soeharto. I guess the answers does not applies to both of them. Thought the former is pro Reds, he had in the Indonesian statute sworn his allegiance to bring Indonesia into democracy. So what is democracy? Does communism has all the elements required in making a democratic country, and the answer is also another no.Oigal says that communism is mature democracy and this I doubted very much. I have into many many countries and nothing in a communist country spells democracy, perhaps in public view a false pretence.
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Oigal Says:
January 28th, 2008 at 7:51 amOigal says that communism is mature democracy and this I doubted very much
WHOA !! BIG TIME INCORRECT… Dragonwall ..please re-read my post.
What I said is that a mature democracy can tolerate a communist party because like all fundamentally flawed belief systems communism (and all the other radical religious/cult beliefs) cannot withstand the light of day in open debate. Which is a far better solution than slaughtering millions because they have been scammed with half truths of a better life.
Of course that requires a free press and a legal system based in justice.
as it was continually exposed as flawed and unworkable in any society (unless you want mass starvation, murder, repression) the mere fact that it is tolerated highlights thThe communist party is exists in Australia and receives virtually zero support e differences between a mature democracy and the communism (and all the other murderous isms)
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January 28th, 2008 at 9:37 amPatoeng,
Interesting story. Not the kind of thing a foreigner hanging out at Jakarta bars would pick up.
Oigsy-Poigsy,
I think the fact communism still exists means it can withstand open debate.
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Oigal Says:
January 28th, 2008 at 11:46 amNot surprisingly Assmad you are missing the point..although to wander along your little world of fanasty..Which communist country has open debate and press freedom again, I seem to have misplaced my atlas of fanasty countries..
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January 28th, 2008 at 12:13 pmOigsy-Poigsy,
You were talking about whether or not communism could survive open debate. They’d say the U.S.S.R., Cuba, North Korea were communist in name only. They call them state capitalist regimes.
As for communist places with open debate and press freedom — I think they’re doing pretty well in Kerala, India. But no, I’m not getting drawn into defending the worldwide Soviet collective, Oigsy.
On the subject of free debate, I notice you went pretty quiet when the poor of Indonesia starting giving the wrong answer, one that you didn’t like or approve of. Go for Gold, Australia.
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Ross Says:
January 28th, 2008 at 1:13 pmCan’t quite see why some folks are so reluctant to believe in communist ‘sleepers.’ It’s always been one of their favourite tactics. Why would Indonesia be an exception to their rule- I did give some local examples..
In answer to the question raised by spew-it-all, the military training is documented in several works.
Conboy’s Kopassus history is about military matters in general but gives a lot of info on the 1965 events, both before and after. The John Hughes book is very good, but for a good scholarly analysis, see the Dutch diplomat Dake’s book ‘In the Spirit of the Red Banteng.’ I got it at QB, now defunct, but no doubt it is available elsewhere.
Rex Mortimer’s book should have a health warning attached to it; he was an active, senior Communist for most of his life. He finally fell out with the CP in Aussie because his marxism varied in tone. But he never repented his commitment to the communist cause in general.
To move things along, a prominent general during the ‘purges’ was Sarwo Edie. I met an elderly expat at the airport a couple of years ago who’d known him, and said he was a ‘charming chap till you knew what he was capable of.’ That informant also said that one of Sarwo Edie’s offspring had married somebody nowadays very important. I wonder if any other participants in this discussion can confirm the identity of that someone. I hesitate to repeat the name I heard without corroboration. -
January 28th, 2008 at 1:28 pmNo secret, Ross, Sarwo Edhie’s son-in-law is Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, the fifth president of Indonesia. Verifiable in a number of open-source places.
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January 29th, 2008 at 12:49 amWHOA !! BIG TIME INCORRECT”¦ Dragonwall ..please re-read my post.
No you said democracy could stomach communism in a mature way. It is like what you say in a man you can tolerate what a small kids says even though he is small. But this is make believe with pretence.
In fact democracy does not. Have you seen kids fighting in Sierra Leone, Africa nations etc. It is revolt of a kind similar to communism against democracy.
Democracy is a free society, governed by the law and not against it. You have the right to freedom, speech and activities as long as it is within the statute.
Communism is a society being govern within the commune and that what you get you have to share it like in insurance spreading the risk. The democratic society does not.
What you get you pay taxes and others required by law and you keep the rest.
To really discuss communism as a topic will takes a long while to do so not even the IM blog could take.
During the rule of Soekarno is that a democratic society? Others take it as a communist but it preaches the UU 45 in a democratic way.
During the rule of Soeharto is that a communist society? It was taken as a dictatorship but it is democratic enough to make the country prosper.
China was communist and during that time they were one of the worst country in the world. Whereas after Deng it sort of open up to democracy and starting to prosper but they still have the communist in thme. But practically everyone is against communism but the Central Committee still in some way wants to keep a little bit of communism in within not that it tolerates.
I am not sure Oigal how well do you read politics in Asia. But you will understand when you set the puzzles on your table you will see that no one democratic society could stomach communism.
The Islamic factions headed by those glico porky clerics have communism in their mind in some way when they preach. Like if you can’t win, kill them all kind of attitude. Full of vengence and personal vendetta.
Example if someone hurts a Muslim, they will gather a whole gang of their own people and seek revenge like radicals, militants and communist. Whereas in a democratic society you sue the fellow or report the person to the police without having false pretence or being afraid of retaliation.
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dewaratugedeanom Says:
January 29th, 2008 at 11:54 amAchmad said
No secret, Ross, Sarwo Edhie’s son-in-law is Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, the fifth president of Indonesia. Verifiable in a number of open-source places.
This Sarwo Edhie Wibowo seems to be quite a key figure with more than a few dalang traits. SBY’s father-in-law, tank commander in Central-Java and head of RPKAD (the Indonesian Special Forces) in 1965 during the massacres, organizer of the ‘Act of Free Choice’ in Papua. What other kind of strings did he pull? Has anyone here any idea?
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Adrian Vickers Says:
January 29th, 2008 at 11:58 amIn answer to Ross’s question of ‘where are the communists?’ (ie those not killed or imprisoned), they joined Golkar. Ken Ward’s study of the 1971 election in East Java is a fine piece of work showing just how the old PKI were coopted into the new political structure. You can still find people in many parts of Bali who remember who the PKI families were, and how many of them survived by being more Golkar than Golkar. That’s why some of the killers of 1965 were actually people accused of being communists. They were made to kill in order to prove that they were ‘clean’.
Lots of people in Java and Bali can show you grave sites, they are all over the place. The problem is that no one has been able to document them because it is too expensive, and of course many people in authority have tried to stop such documentation from happening (as in the example on You Tube, the ‘Mass Graves’ film, which local thugs attempted to stop). When Ben Kiernan started documenting the killings in Cambodia, he needed a multi-million dollar grant and government support to carry the project off.
On publications, Geoffrey Robinson’s book is translated into Indonesian, as is the book edited by Robert Cribb, which includes first-hand accounts. A number of translations of primary sources on the killings have been published in the journal Indonesia over the years, and these are available on-line now. There are also interesting fictionalisations of the period, such as the collection translated by Harry Aveling under the title of Gestapu (now out of print), and the moving short-story by Umar Kayam, ‘Bawuk’.
Just to clarify the Australia thing, at the height of the Cold War Menzies tried to outlaw the Communist Party, but the people of Australia voted against this motion. The Australian Communist Party faded away slowly. As someone said, democracy may not be a perfect system, but it’s still better than the alternatives (or something like that).
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January 30th, 2008 at 10:04 amAdrian,
It was Winston Churchill, something like “democracy is the worst system but the best we’ve got.”
I’m sure DFAT”ll be jumping all over themselves to give that grant through the Australian-Indonesia council. … Maybe even announce it on an SBY visit to Australia…. ha ha ha.
Be interesting to see what’d happen if the SMH or Australian did a double-front weekend spread on Sarwo Edhie, SBY’s father-in-law, and what’s known and not known about ’65-’66.
What’s a link to that U-Tube clip ?
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