Forgiveness
January 14th, 2008, in News, by PatungView the original article here.
Tags: Debates, Former President, Laws, Leadership, Parliament, Prosecution, Reformasi, Soeharto, Suharto, Tempo, Yogyakarta
105 Comments on “Forgiveness”
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AndrewJ Says:
February 5th, 2008 at 7:43 amSo you want to say that all Dutch crimes against humanity in slaughtering our people, plundering our country and stealing our wealth were pardonable
No, I’m saying the local warrior class was equally guilty as their VoC businessmen employers; and that General Suharto and Megawati and General Yuhoyono are the modern version of the people who use to enable colonial exploitation & abuse. That Corporations from Exxon in Sumatra to Conoco Phillips in East Timor to Freeport McMoRan in Papua are the modern version of VoC.
A person can not less their guilt for their actions by association, but their association can mean more people are equally guilty of the same crimes. Some people want RI to remain a colonial power, but I am opposed to colonialism by any nation.
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February 5th, 2008 at 7:59 amP.S. Yes I mean the USI was created as a democratic effort to protect all the cultures of all the island nations; but the RI was created as a centralised military power for colonial mining interests. That’s why the Rockefeller foundations & Ford Foundation supported Sukarno’s RI and that why they wanted General Suharto to replace Sukarno who was not willing to sign away a big cut of the loot for those US corporations.
If the people of Indonesia want, they can stop RI colonial exploitation and instead support de-colonization as per their agreement with UN Resolution 1514 and UN Resolution 1541 and the New York Agreement any instant; it is their choice.
Without the willingness of the colonial power it can take hundreds of years to get your voice heard.
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Janma Says:
February 5th, 2008 at 9:57 amSo you want to say that all Dutch crimes against humanity in slaughtering our people, plundering our country and stealing our wealth were pardonable because of the Dutch courts in 1928 defended Mohammad Hatta right to free speech and calling the people to overthrow the government if the wanted while Pak Harto crimes is not because His name is Muhammmad Soeharto
Soeharto wasn’t that different from the Dutch…. he was his own ‘kompani’. He and his kronies….. wasn’t that much difference except his name was “Muhammad Soeharto”, so Indonesians just lay down and took it…..
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Cukurungan Says:
February 5th, 2008 at 2:00 pmJanma wrote :
Soeharto wasn’t that different from the Dutch…. he was his own ‘kompani’. He and his kronies….. wasn’t that much difference except his name was
“Muhammad Soeharto”, so Indonesians just lay down and took it…..’Me:
Because Pak Harto was God chosen leaders among us He is muslim anyway in the Quran, it is clearly stated that we muslim have to obey God, Prophet and Leaders chosen among us
Andrew wrote :
No, I’m saying the local warrior class was equally guilty as their VoC businessmen employers; and that General Suharto and Megawati and General Yuhoyono are the modern version of the people who use to enable colonial exploitation & abuse. That Corporations from Exxon in Sumatra to Conoco Phillips in East Timor to Freeport McMoRan in Papua are the modern version of VoC.A person can not less their guilt for their actions by association, but their association can mean more people are equally guilty of the same crimes. Some people want RI to remain a colonial power, but I am opposed to colonialism by any nation.’
Me:
Pak Harto, Bu Mega and Sby are leaders chosen by us, we moslem have to obey our own leaders while keep watching every evangelist manuver to provoke us in confronting our own leaders and government.Those companies have been never pointing Gun on us and they never force us to do this and to do that and without them we only have business “toko kelontong and bandar togel”.
We are not the Colonial Powers and the Papuan can do anything except declaring independent because it will lead them to becomes other failed state and it will be end up like Papua Nugini and Timor East just becomes easy prey for the Predator Bule Ausii.
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February 5th, 2008 at 7:29 pmActually my Papuan friends told me before the 2001 & 2004 elections that the TNI had already chosen Megawati & Yudhoyono; it is sad that Cukurungan says he enjoys the profits of colonization of those Provinces under TNI and BIN guns or assassinations like That Munir and Theys Eluay. Indeed the executive of VoC and Freeport McMoRan and Bechtel don’t have guns pointed at them or their allies, the guns are reserved for the indigenous people of Papua and Aceh and Borneo and elsewhere Java wants the foreign corporations to exploit.
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February 6th, 2008 at 7:43 amActually my Papuan friends told me before the 2001 & 2004 elections that the TNI had already chosen Megawati & Yudhoyono; it is sad that Cukurungan says he enjoys the profits of colonization of those Provinces under TNI and BIN guns or assassinations like That Munir and Theys Eluay. Indeed the executive of VoC and Freeport McMoRan and Bechtel don’t have guns pointed at them or their allies, the guns are reserved for the indigenous people of Papua and Aceh and Borneo and elsewhere Java wants the foreign corporations to exploit.
Your Papuan friend said so is understanable but I do not understand why you have to embarrass your self by using this weak argument. Even whole world know that Yudhoyono is the result of the people votes and not TNI chosen.
We exactly know deep inside in the infidels mind, they are always try hard to give impression that the role of the VOC and Dutch in the past was just like the role MNC and our Government today whilst actually it is not the same and the other side they are also try to minimize role Indonesia Hero and discredit Indonesia Hero personal life such as they said Sultan Agung was corrupt Leader, Pangeran Diponenegoro was the tomb defender, Suharto is No.1 world corruptors, SBY and Megawati is a bad leader.
Why they do that? It is just simple reason to wipe out the Dark Time of the Christian Dutch Role during 350 years from our history. If they succeeded doing so and our people do not trust anymore with our leaders then another infidel’s agenda will follow soon. However Bung Karno said to us “Jasmerah” do not forget history or in other word never forget what the Christian Dutch has been done in this country.
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February 6th, 2008 at 8:12 amWe exactly know deep inside in the infidels mind
You hate those “infidels” don’t you, you hate those ‘evil’ black people, those ‘evil’ non-Muslims, those ‘evil’ non-Javanese; the world would be better for you when Java’s culture is established across Papua and Aceh. That is Solid colonial thinking you possess.
Dark Time of the Christian Dutch Role during 350 years
Keep repeating it often enough and everybody will mindlessly accept your version of history, that is the theory the Ford Foundation & Indonesian military after 1950 believed would work. Lets pretend the USI never existed, lets pretend Sukarno was a popular hero and that the United Nations created the RI instead of the USI in 1949.
another infidel’s agenda will follow soon
Fear Uncertainty and Doubt worked for Sukarno, worked for Suharto, will it work for you?
Lets see one bunch of Generals kills another bunch claiming they are evil “communist”; so Suharto kills the first bunch claiming no, they are the “evil” “communist”.
And forty years later you expect Indonesia & the world to fear the evil “infidel”. Quite sad really, both you and George W Bush torting the same FUD. You may hope FUD conceals the historical truth, and it could do that yet again, but it will not change the facts for anybody willing to research what was really happening & who was profiting from what.
The fact is that all the people killed by VoC didn’t shape Indonesia, and all the people killed by Suharto didn’t shape Indonesia; Indonesia was shaped by VoC and then by the US Indonesia Society group of corporations with the help of the local military, both times.
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February 6th, 2008 at 10:44 amYou hate those “infidels” don’t you
Friend,
Do not get too personal and our discussion is still in line with Pancasila.
FYI I have no reason to hate the infidels because if this worlds without infidels God will drag me to the hell because I am only a dirty Muslim and Let Rakyat Indonesia to decide which the history version more comfortable to them -
February 6th, 2008 at 11:06 amif this worlds without infidels God will drag me to the hell because I am only a dirty Muslim
That is a concept I’ve not heard of before. I’m sure Allah would forgive people who use genuine thought and compassion; indeed there is no need to take things too personally but we do need to be weary of being caught in misdirection; which happens to be what I believe the corrupt corporations today specialise in and count on. Like humans I believe most companies and corporate executives are decent, but we need to be mindful of those few executives (including Generals or suites in the US) who dress in sheep’s clothing and hide their activities in the shadows.
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February 8th, 2008 at 7:40 amThat is a concept I’ve not heard of before. I’m sure Allah would forgive people who use genuine thought and compassion; indeed there is no need to take things too personally but we do need to be weary of being caught in misdirection; which happens to be what I believe the corrupt corporations today specialise in and count on. Like humans I believe most companies and corporate executives are decent, but we need to be mindful of those few executives (including Generals or suites in the US) who dress in sheep’s clothing and hide their activities in the shadows.
That concept is not belong to the Islamic tenets, it is just my imagination and my hope because if the hell can be fully loaded with the plenty infidels, the bad Muslim like me do not need to be burn in the hell to clean my sin but I can go directly straight to heaven.
I do not like to blame those companies because if our government are clean, their activities and maneuver would be controllable but without those companies the gold, oil and gas would still stay deep under ground because no one in here want to risk $50 million just to know what inside the earth.
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Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
February 8th, 2008 at 11:18 amRe,
We exactly know deep inside in the infidels mind, they are always try hard to give impression that the role of the VOC and Dutch in the past was just like the role MNC and our Government today whilst actually it is not the same and the other side they are also try to minimize role Indonesia Hero and discredit Indonesia Hero personal life such as they said Sultan Agung was corrupt Leader, Pangeran Diponenegoro was the tomb defender, Suharto is No.1 world corruptors, SBY and Megawati is a bad leader.
Finally you took your nappy off your head and can think straight like an Indonesian. We have to get rid of all the undesirables like Bule English teachers, Singapore cukongs and Arab islamo-pedophiles.
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Janma Says:
February 8th, 2008 at 1:42 pmLet Rakyat Indonesia to decide which the history version more comfortable to them.
That’s the sickness hey?
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February 9th, 2008 at 12:04 amI do not like to blame those companies because if our government are clean, their activities and maneuver would be controllable but without those companies the gold, oil and gas would still stay deep under ground because no one in here want to risk $50 million just to know what inside the earth.
If your government is as perfect as God is that what you are saying, Indonesia has no corruption no bribery or theft or military elitism.
Countries that relay on mining have slower economic development than any other type of economy. If the resources were left in the ground they would be available for future generations when they might really need them themselves & when the resources would be worth much more than what the Americans & others have been paying for them.
After WW-II Indonesia became a colonial power instead of taking a path towards industry like Japan did; lets look at Java itself, it had population, nearby resources it could buy (unlike Japan), and geographically better placed to trade with Europe and the world economy than Japan was. Japan’s economic growth of the 1970s & 80s could have been Java’s if not for the efforts of certain US executives in business with Sukarno & Suharto & Yudhoyono.
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February 11th, 2008 at 7:15 amFinally you took your nappy off your head and can think straight like an Indonesian.
Friend,
You are completely wrong because I am always thinking and talking merely based on my own interest as Provocateur not because I am Indonesian.
For me, one friend is too much while 100 enemies are too few otherwise this world will become a boring place.
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Odinius Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 7:49 amI guarantee a lot of very uncomfortable facts about 1965-7 will come out now that Suharto is dead.
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