Dutch Compensation

Dec 19th, 2007, in IM Posts, Opinion, by

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134 Comments on “Dutch Compensation”

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  1. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 23rd, 2007 at 1:55 am

    Hello Teng,

    Are you sure about that? Have you seen the sh*t state India is in?

    Of course I am sure. Why would I state thus?

    What has that got to do with the English? India gained Independence just like Indonesia did. India as in the same league with Indonesia missed their chances through poor governance after gaining Independence.

    The state of what India or Indonesia or for that matter any other “freed” colony AFTER gaining their Independence is not the matter of discussion mooted by this article that I wrote.

    I wonder if you aren’t a bit over the top.

    Don’t try to sound like some smart ass with cliches like that. Over the top what?

    Like I said, and I quote ” It would be their own bloody affair”. What the natives do unto themselves is their own bloody business. The point that you are deflecting is manifesting yourself being in a state of denial over the issue about Dutch atrocities.

  2. avatar Dragonwall says:
    December 23rd, 2007 at 2:34 am

    Higher illiteracy, more poverty, more infant deaths, more HIV, lower life expectancy, lower GDP per person. And if you want to see the complete picture you should add Pakistan”¦ which will make the numbers even paler.

    I think this are the after effects of the upper cast in these regions like Pakistan, India that accumulates over the years. Philanthropy doesn’t seem to be the word that exist to them or happened in their lives and that they were never given the chance in the presence of heat waves and typhoons.

    India also suffers such segregation like the Tamils towards the south.

    Ceylon was doing quite okay until came Sri Lanka where the Tigers were fighting fiercely over her.

    The present government should be at fault over their dilemma.

  3. avatar Teng says:
    December 23rd, 2007 at 2:47 am

    Let me quote yourself:

    Therefore, apart from the human sufferings that the natives endured during the Dutch colonial period, is it tenable that corruption in post independent Indonesia is something the Indonesians witnessed and inherited from 200 years of VOC presence and presumably throughout the remaining 150 years of Dutch presence thereafter?

    With this you are implying that Dutch rule caused one of the biggest problems of current affairs in Indonesia. Yet India’s missed chances are because of their own poor governance.

    It is like you are saying: India is in a bad state despite English colonialism, Indonesia is in a bad state because of Dutch colonialism.

    And the “over the top” comment was clearly related to the quote above it “persecuted like animals”

    Oh and btw I am not in a state of denial about Dutch atrocities. I studied Indonesian history and read tons of books and articles about those atrocities.

    Saying Dutch colonialism was bad is kicking in an open door. I am merely engaging in this discussion because I feel you are speaking in hyperbole’s

  4. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 23rd, 2007 at 3:00 am

    As an aside comment regarding corruption in Indonesia vis-a-vis Indonesia’s colonial past.

    Do you need reading lessons?

    It says: AS AN ASIDE COMMENT.

    Since you press on. YES and YES, in my opinion the corruption in present Indonesia had a lot to do with the corrupt ways of the Dutch.

    Your stance is understandable because you are in the Netherlands.

  5. avatar Dragonwall says:
    December 23rd, 2007 at 3:01 am

    Cool it man Teng.

    We should see history from the start.

    The English have their fair share of atrocities so was the Dutch. But in liberal term the English laws that set the rule over the places they occupied in comparing to the Dutch were world aparts.

    If you were to take a close look into the laws on English term they are more humane than the Dutch. The latter not only in arrogance of their superiority at that time contributes to the demise of the present day law in Indonesia that part of them were derivative of the Dutch colonialism.

    Because of that the Indonesian government really care f**ks about the the minorities thinking that they were like a pampered child of the Dutch thus the evolution of segregation and hatred that existed over the accumulated years in Indonesian history.

    Besides the topics of discussion, insults should be refrain and reduce to the minimum unless it is the person who is accuse of his misdeeds.

    One should take the topic and comments as discussion in resolving problems where to start or begin.

    Many, I am also one of them, take this forum as a joke blog at times and insults on commentators should be reduce unless it becomes over abusive into personal than topic.

  6. avatar Teng says:
    December 23rd, 2007 at 3:05 am

    Very mature… name calling (smart ass) offending (do you need reading lessons) and then corrupting the discussion by saying: Your stance is understandable because you live in the Netherlands.

    I held (and still hold) your articles in high regard. But if this is the way you start discussing, it ends here for me.

    I will still read the things you write with pleasure, but I will surely refrain from commenting on them.

  7. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 23rd, 2007 at 3:08 am

    Oh and one thing more Teng,

    Do you know what hyperbole is?

    You studied Indonesian history? And you did not read of how the Indonesian natives were treated like animals? You sure missed out plenty.

  8. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 23rd, 2007 at 3:10 am

    Of course I am mature. Thank you!

  9. avatar Teng says:
    December 23rd, 2007 at 3:13 am

    Hyperbole (pronounced /haɪˈpÉbÉ™li/ or “hy-PER-buh-lee”; “HY-per-bowl” is a mispronunciation) is a figure of speech in which statements are exaggerated. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, and is not meant to be taken literally.

  10. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 23rd, 2007 at 3:19 am

    Since I am a UK fanboy, its got to be the Oxford Dictionary.

    It says”

    hyperbole

    /hiperbli/

    “¢ noun deliberate exaggeration, not meant to be taken literally.

    “” DERIVATIVES hyperbolical adjective hyperbolically adverb.

    “” ORIGIN Greek huperbole ‘excess’, from ballein ‘to throw’.

    Too bad you think what I wrote is in hyperbole and it appears you took it to mean literally, because if you didn’t take it literally, “animals” would not have mattered would it?

  11. avatar Cukurungan says:
    December 23rd, 2007 at 9:11 am

    Teng said:
    According to Anne Booth, a specialist on South East Asian economics, Indonesian independence was the best thing that happened to the Dutch economy. The Dutch Indies weren’t profitable for a long time.

    Me:
    So what was reason Dutch stayed in here until 350 years. Was dutch present in here for saving us …saving from what?… and why we have to kick their axxh hole otherwise the dutch will make their permanent nest in here like what they done in south africa.

    You said:
    Compensation will probably be impossible, because of the ramifications it would have like you said.

    Me:
    Precedence and reference are a cristal clear, Libya had paid $10 million for each death infindels in the panam bombing and we will ask the dutch to pay $20 million for each man and woman killed during the ducth criminal times. So go figure how much DUCTH have to pay us a compensation for 40,000 un-armed man and woman slaughtered by WESTERLING in the soccer field. Remember that cases is only one from thousand cases recorded in our history.

    bule gila Said:

    Those Indonesians who think about demanding compensation from the Dutch”¦ did you consider giving compensation yourself for Indonesia’s forced annextion of East Timor? This is a much more recent case in history and the East Timorese could be said to have a much clearer case against the Indonesians.

    me :

    Agreed, if today the dutch pay compensation to us , tomorrow we will pay compensation the TimorEast people.

    Pena Budaya said:
    In my understanding VOC was the first multinational in the world. Of course it was a lousy one. What do you think about all multinationals/TNCs from European, US or China nowadays those are operating in developing countries or poor countries through supply chain with the end chain of home-based or sweatshops?

    Me:
    It is very much different, yes in now days some MNC also committed crimes against humanity but not plainly as VOC had done in the past such as killing 10,000 Chinese Batavia and slaughtering 40,000 un-armed civilian in South Sulawesi.

    You said:
    They all have same motive: making profits as much as they could.

    me:
    See if the civilized dutch and anglo just to make profits they can do anything include massacred million people without apology..it seemed the religius freak already found very good justification to blow more powerful bomb anywhere and anytime.

    You said:
    But, is there any government managed to sue for what they have done? Let me know if you know one.

    Me :
    I don’t think there is any urgency to sue them because their crimes could becomes our good reminders who is representatives of the great devil in this world’s. We will never forget forever what was the real cost for the outbreak of Gold, Gospel and God upon hundred million natives people around the Globe.

  12. avatar immigrant says:
    December 23rd, 2007 at 3:00 pm

    Placing a monetary value in relation to compensation for prior crimes is at its best, difficult, I think this is something that can be agreed upon by all. Part of this problem is that the value increases the longer that even the thought of compensation drags on.

    As a western foreigner living in the Netherlands for eight years I have gained a lot of insight into the Dutch psyche, which seeming possesses little to no sense of shame, which is what largely hinders this matter. The Dutch indignation to Max Havelaar’s book seems to have dissipated shortly after its short-lived but typically Dutch reaction. It was on to other more important things, like partying, an event which not so long ago was repeated in Srebenica. In comparison, their German neighbors are still struggling with a national sense of shame some 60 years on.

    Not long ago it was reported to me by a Dutch graduate that the Dutch stood up and did the right thing by allowing Indonesia its independence, and reacted with utter horror when I informed him that it was only at the strong behest of the United Nations. This lack of educating their own with the truth lends itself to only more difficulty when trying to address reparations.

    It is no wonder that they are having an issue with their cultural identity because the truths have been quagmired in the romanticization of themselves. There is no doubt in my mind that financial redress should be made that will adequately allow the areas formerly under Dutch rule to move beyond and ahead in this matter.

  13. avatar Dragonwall says:
    December 24th, 2007 at 2:10 am

    The Indonesian government should take the first initiative to move ahead by seeking the Dutch to admit their wrong doing and then pursue from there. corrections neede to correct any flaws in the Indonesian Laws that will from there on no longer further discriminate and segregate the minorities.
    Apology first, financial redress will be second.

  14. avatar Robert says:
    December 24th, 2007 at 7:38 am

    Cukurungan said:

    Precedence and reference are a cristal clear, Libya had paid $10 million for each death infindels in the panam bombing and we will ask the dutch to pay $20 million for each man and woman killed during the ducth criminal times. So go figure how much DUCTH have to pay us a compensation for 40,000 un-armed man and woman slaughtered by WESTERLING in the soccer field. Remember that cases is only one from thousand cases recorded in our history.

    How much of that money will go to the the (relatives of the) victims of the 1965/66 massacres, Aceh, East Timor and West-Papua killings?

    Agreed, if today the dutch pay compensation to us , tomorrow we will pay compensation the TimorEast people.

    Why not the pay East-Timorese first and set a good example? Why should they have to wait for the Dutch to pay?

    dragonwall said:

    corrections neede to correct any flaws in the Indonesian Laws that will from there on no longer further discriminate and segregate the minorities.corrections.

    Why not start with changing the laws first? Doesn’t cost any money and the Dutch aren’t necessary here. The Indonesian Government doesn’t need the Dutch to change their laws.

  15. avatar Cukurungan says:
    December 24th, 2007 at 8:21 am

    Robert said:

    How much of that money will go to the the (relatives of the) victims of the 1965/66 massacres, Aceh, East Timor and West-Papua killings?

    me :

    We don’t need to pay anything for the victims of our internal conflict like there was no payment compensation for 100 million death of WWI &II, France Revolution, Mao Red Revolution and million death of America civil war.

    you said:
    Why not the pay East-Timorese first and set a good example? Why should they have to wait for the Dutch to pay?

    me :

    The Dutch and Anglo are no.1 promotor and champion world’s crime against Humanity so they shall first lead by example to undue what they had been done in destroying natives people around the globe prior other to follow their pad.

  16. avatar Teng says:
    December 24th, 2007 at 8:46 am

    The Dutch and Anglo are no.1 promotor and champion world’s crime against Humanity so they shall first lead by example to undue what they had been done in destroying natives people around the globe prior other to follow their pad.

    Yeah right.. here’s a list of the worlds biggest killers. I don’t see the English nor the Dutch on that list. Suharto however is 12th on the list. And why shouldn’t you have to compensate your own people? You seem to be a bit confused about “internal conflict”. First of all WWI and WWII weren’t internal conflicts (the name World War already kind of suggests it isn’t internal). The American civil war is a true internal conflict. Two parties fighting for what they think is right. Killing 500.000 unarmed alleged communists is hardly a conflict though

    Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,000
    Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1932-39) 23,000,000 (the purges plus Ukraine’s famine)
    Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12,000,000 (concentration camps and civilians WWII)
    Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5,000,000 (civilians in WWII)
    Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000
    Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) 1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)
    Menghistu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) 1,500,000
    Ismail Enver (Turkey, 1915) 1,200,000 Armenians
    Yakubu Gowon (Biafra, 1967-1970) 1,000,000
    Leonid Brezhnev (Afghanistan, 1979-1982) 900,000
    Jean Kambanda (Rwanda, 1994) 800,000
    Suharto (East Timor, West Papua, Communists, 1966-98) 800,000

  17. avatar Cukurungan says:
    December 24th, 2007 at 9:17 am

    Teng Said:

    Yeah right.. here’s a list of the worlds biggest killers. I don’t see the English nor the Dutch on that list. Suharto however is 12th on the list.

    me :

    Your list was made by an Anglo man, He neglected data million death indian people caused by anglo oppression during British rules in India and He was hiding facts caused of disappearence 100 million red indian and aborigine from this earth.

    FYI ..yes maybe Suharto killed some people but he never becames our president without help Anglo Secret Agent.

  18. avatar Teng says:
    December 24th, 2007 at 9:40 am

    And do you have some figures or articles on that? A 100 million Indian and Aborigine is quite a bald statement. If you can give me any sources on that, I will stand corrected

  19. avatar Cukurungan says:
    December 24th, 2007 at 1:10 pm

    Teng said:

    And do you have some figures or articles on that? A 100 million Indian and Aborigine is quite a bald statement. If you can give me any sources on that, I will stand corrected

    me :

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm

    Over the next four centuries, their numbers were reduced to about 237,000 as Natives were almost wiped out. Author Carmen Bernand estimates that the Native population of what is now Mexico was reduced from 30 million to only 3 million over four decades. 13 Peter Montague estimates that Europeans once ruled over 100 million Natives throughout the Americas.
    European extermination of Natives started with Christopher Columbus’ arrival in San Salvador in 1492. Native population dropped dramatically over the next few decades. Some were directly murdered by Europeans. Others died indirectly as a result of contact with introduced diseases for which they had no resistance — mainly smallpox, influenza, and measles.
    Later European Christian invaders systematically murdered additional Aboriginal people, from the Canadian Arctic to South America. They used warfare, death marches, forced relocation to barren lands, destruction of their main food supply — the Buffalo — and poisoning. Some Europeans actually shot at Indians for target practice.
    The genocide against American Natives was one of the most massive, and longest lasting genocidal campaigns in human history. It started, like all genocides, with the oppressor treating the victims as sub-humans. It continued until almost all Natives were wiped of the face of the earth, along with much of their language, culture and religion

    Other source :

    Possibly Twenty (or so) Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other:

    Rank Death Toll Cause Centuries
    1 55 million Second World War 20C
    2 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C
    3 40 million Mongol Conquests 13C
    4 36 million An Lushan Revolt 8C
    5 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C
    6 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C
    7 20 million Annihilation of the American Indians 15C-19C
    8 20 million Iosif Stalin 20C
    9 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C
    10 18 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C
    11 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C
    12 17 million British India (mostly famine) 19C
    13 15 million First World War 20C
    14 9 million Russian Civil War 20C
    15 8 million Fall of Rome 3C-5C
    16 8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C
    17 7 million Thirty Years War 17C
    18 5 million Russia’s Time of Troubles 16C-17C
    19 4 million Napoleonic Wars 19C
    20 3 million Chinese Civil War 20C
    21 3 million Frenc

  20. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    December 24th, 2007 at 6:03 pm

    I think we shouldn’t focus the discussion only on the Dutch. Atrocities were committed by all colonial powers (except maybe for the Germans in Papua, for which I have no data) and these powers were not limited to nations inhabited by Caucasians only.

    We should bear in mind that
    “¢ People who volunteered and pioneered in moving to faraway and unknown places usually didn’t belong to the ‘crème de la crème’ of the nation but consisted for the largest part of scoundrels, rascals and misfits. It is a public secret that the first immigrants in Australia were British convicts. They surely didn’t change their bad habits after setting foot onshore a newly discovered land.
    “¢ In those days parochialism was the common mindset of the populace. Contrary to the present era people weren’t confronted in the media with the beauty of different cultures and lifestyles. Everything unfamiliar was automatically considered as weird and threatening. Colored people were stereotyped and depicted as savages and cannibals by the primitive media of the time, which were limited to sketches and sailor stories.
    “¢ As soon as awareness in the motherlands emerged about what happened in reality overseas, public reaction and indignation – certainly in the case of the Netherlands – started to influence policy makers to steer a more ethical course.
    “¢ As with the VOC tempo dulu the real culprit even to this day is the greed of multinational corporations from all parts of the world and for whom human rights are just a hindrance on their way to profit maximization. Unfortunately these corporations largely escape national or supranational regulations.

    As there are no more living victims suffering from alleged atrocities it is my opinion that instead of coercing former colonial powers into direct financial retribution – we all know that the money will end up in Singaporean and Swiss bank accounts – it would be preferable for those countries to help their former colonies in standing on their own feet by funding and advising educational, ecological and humanitarian projects. As for apologies, it’s just ‘words words words”¦’

    And, oh yes, Cukurungan, go and wipe you mouth boy. You’re driveling sh*t.

  21. avatar Cukurungan says:
    December 24th, 2007 at 7:44 pm

    dewaratugedeanom Said:

    And, oh yes, Cukurungan, go and wipe you mouth boy. You’re driveling sh*t.

    me:

    Hi hi hi insult nya yg nendhang dong

  22. avatar Teng says:
    December 25th, 2007 at 8:02 am

    @ Cukurungan

    I must admit I didn’t know it was that bad in America. I did know there were lots of atrocities and murders towards the Natives but not at this scale. And even though I wouldn’t consider smallpox, influenza and meazles as a “weapon”, I do admit that the British “earn” a spot in the list of worst killers.

    So I stand partially corrected

  23. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    December 28th, 2007 at 7:59 pm

    Cukurungan said

    Peter Montague estimates that Europeans once ruled over 100 million Natives throughout the Americas.

    Has there been a counting before the Europeans arrived, and who did it?

  24. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    December 29th, 2007 at 4:11 pm

    Cukurungan said

    The genocide against American Natives was one of the most massive, and longest lasting genocidal campaigns in human history. It started, like all genocides, with the oppressor treating the victims as sub-humans. It continued until almost all Natives were wiped of the face of the earth, along with much of their language, culture and religion.

    The arrival of the Europeans at least put an end to the horror of Mesoamerican natives (Mayas, Aztecs, Toltecs etc.) slaughtering each other by the tens of thousands in their ritual human sacrifices. During these mass rituals the victims were ripped open alive and their still beating heart pulled out of their chest. Excavations in the area revealed that even children weren’t spared.

  25. avatar Cukurungan says:
    December 29th, 2007 at 4:38 pm

    dewaratugedeanom Said:

    The arrival of the Europeans at least put an end to the horror of Mesoamerican natives (Mayas, Aztecs, Toltecs etc.) slaughtering each other by the tens of thousands in their ritual human sacrifices. During these mass rituals the victims were ripped open alive and their still beating heart pulled out of their chest. Excavations in the area revealed that even children weren’t spared.

    Me:

    Let kill European whenever and wherever we find them because they were slaughtering each other by the ten of million in theirs ritual WWI & WWII

  26. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    December 29th, 2007 at 5:06 pm

    Let kill European whenever and wherever we find them because they were slaughtering each other by the ten of million in theirs ritual WWI & WWII

    said Cukurungan while sharpening his knife and searching the Qur’an for a condoning verse.

  27. avatar Robert says:
    December 29th, 2007 at 9:37 pm

    @Cukurungan

    You said:

    We don’t need to pay anything for the victims of our internal conflict like there was no payment compensation for 100 million death of WWI &II, France Revolution, Mao Red Revolution and million death of America civil war.

    Why do you apply this double standard? You expect the Dutch to compensate financially for the atrocities they committed, while the Indonesians who committed the same atrocities don’t have to pay anything? Just because other countries didn’t do that either? I get the impression you are only interested in atrocities

    And if you are so concerned about colonialism, you had better hurry up then. Indonesia is being robbed (again) by Western countries and China of its natural resources. This happens at a pace the people of the VOC couldn’t have imagined in their wildest dreams.

    Don’t get me wrong, I am not against compensation. I do think that the Dutch Government should pay and apologise to the victims. They should do that because they have a moral obligation towards the victims, but not towards the Government.

    you said:

    Let kill European whenever and wherever we find them because they were slaughtering each other by the ten of million in theirs ritual WWI & WWII

    Like the Indonesian Government did with the Papua’s, Acehnese, East-Timorese and (would-be) Communists?

  28. avatar Sputjam says:
    December 30th, 2007 at 12:19 am

    Non-europeans are not considered humans or perhaps considered as sub human species, by those from europe.
    hence, although there were talks about freedon and democracy in america, blacks and natives were not invited to participate until recently.
    If the europeans had not colonised south-east asia, the thais would have done so. they were the powerhouse in the region, with a systematic government and revered monarchy, and had a regular army.

  29. avatar Cukurungan says:
    December 30th, 2007 at 10:21 am

    Sputjam Said:
    Non-europeans are not considered humans or perhaps considered as sub human species, by those from europe.
    hence, although there were talks about freedon and democracy in america, blacks and natives were not invited to participate until recently.

    me :

    Sounds biased and hatred in your tones, the natives and black people were always invited in AMERICA DEMOCRACY but of course they haven’t deserved as a voters yet however they’re good enough to becomes the object for slaughter, butcher and humiliation for cheering up The true american democracy.

  30. avatar Kirana says:
    January 23rd, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    Hello, Malaysian here, wanting to comment on Sputjam’s comment. Actually, although of course being colonised is not seen as a good thing by malaysians, by and large I’m quite grateful that we had the british, as it could be a lot worse. I mean, you guys had to fight hard against the dutch, and the spanish killed many filipinos. Not to mention the french colonisation of indochina. Maybe the british were just too lazy or squeamish to kill hundreds of natives even if they are considered inferior, but it was still lucky thing for us.

    Also, for some unknown reason, many ‘residents’ posted to ‘advise’ (that is to say, rule) the malay peninsula sultans appear to be people genuinely interested in the malay people. There are at least two who learned malay enthusiastically and went about with the local people, one even spoke chinese. This is quite unlike india, which seemed to attract mostly unsavoury types. Anyway, we got a fair few who behaved like administrators, especially later in the colonisation era, even if they did loot the land and the timber and sent the profits back to britain, and opened the floodgates for mass immigration. And though they did scurry out quick against the japanese invasion, they did come back to help fight the communists and even pulled other commonwealth countries like Australians and New Zealanders to assist. We did manage to get independence without bloodshed after that. So by and large, although of course it would be great not to be colonised in the first place, if it had to happen, it could’ve been far worse.

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