Dutch Compensation

Dec 19th, 2007, in IM Posts, Opinion, by

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134 Comments on “Dutch Compensation”

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  1. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 8:02 am

    Hello dragonwall.

    iamisaid, I am still waiting for your email as I didn’t get the first you sent. tks

    Haiya, how come leh? I oledi send again to your yahoo address sommo from my yahoo account meh. The leonlzt one lehhh.

    Mebbe your email server have gremlins lorrr!

    Want to know about komodo dragons. They will sleep in front of your doosteps in the night. Just hope the sun doesn’t shine on them when their bodies gets heated up and the smell of mentruation, not necessary an open wound, they will just dash at you..ha..ha.. This happens to Try Sutrisno’s wife once..

    YIKES !!!

  2. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 8:11 am

    Dear All – (Londo, Pena Budaya, bule gile, Sputjam, Janma, Achmad Sudarsono, Oigal, WP, Teng, Masindi, dewaratugedeanom, raden, wayan sudirta, colson, Anita McKay and dragonwall to date)

    Thank you each and everyone for your interesting views on this article.

    Cheers,

  3. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 10:48 am

    Dear All, but especially IamIsaid,

    Have to agree with WP above and Dewaratugede.

    The Dutch could never have done it without help from greedy and power hungry local kings, sultans, orang kaya (Bandas), not to mention the class of priyayis and radens.

    And do what ? As Mr. Dewarat. mentioned, they only really ruled for half a century.

    It’s so much easier for Indonesia to blame it’s third-world status on colonization, just like it’s easier to blame Suharto, blame the communists, blame the NEKOLIM. When you’re blaming someone else, you don’t have to take responsibility.

  4. avatar Chris says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 11:04 am

    “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” – Jesus Christ

    Ummm… does that mean the East Timorese, Papuans, Acehnese, etc. can sue Indonesia for their history of mistreatment too? Didn’t think so.

    How about Indonesia(ns) try righting some of the current and more recent wrongs before being high and mighty about past ones. Speaking of which, there were comfort women servicing Japanese soldiers in Indonesia too.

  5. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 12:55 pm

    Welcome back Achmad Sudarsono,

    The Dutch could never have done it without help from greedy and power hungry local kings, sultans, orang kaya (Bandas), not to mention the class of priyayis and radens.

    Point taken.

    Issue mooted : Should compensation be sought for the Dutch atrocities and for injustice?

    For want of a better comparison, I offer this.

    I shall be the bad guy for this hypothesis.

    Assuming that I am a wealthy and powerful person who gets acquainted with Mr. X. The latter is somewhere at the other end of the scale.

    Mr. X introduces his family to me and I make visits to his house.

    Mr. X uses me for favours.

    I have lecherous intentions for both Mr. X’s wife and daughter. I give my relationship with Mr. X an impetus because of my dark intentions.

    It ends up with me sexually abusing his wife and daughter in their house when Mr. X is away.

    I offer Mr. X and his family no apology.

    Mr. X’s wife and daughter have been placed in a mental asylum due to the trauma they suffered.

    People say that it is Mr. X’s fault and because of his greed he “sold” his family.

    Therefore, the crime is not mine. No restitution needed. No apology needed.

    It’s so much easier for Indonesia to blame it’s third-world status on colonization, just like it’s easier to blame Suharto, blame the communists, blame the NEKOLIM. When you’re blaming someone else, you don’t have to take responsibility.

    That was not the gist of this article. It was not blaming someone else for Indonesia’s economic malaise.

  6. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 1:07 pm

    Hi Chris,

    “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” – Jesus Christ

    How wonderful! Let sin and mayhem rule in a world of resigned silence.

    Ummm”¦ does that mean the East Timorese, Papuans, Acehnese, etc. can sue Indonesia for their history of mistreatment too? Didn’t think so.

    Sue?

    You mean to say that war crimes and crimes against humanity has no cause for Justice?

    How about Indonesia(ns) try righting some of the current and more recent wrongs before being high and mighty about past ones.

    But, did you not start by quoting Jesus. So why should you now say that Indonesia(ns) try to right some of the current and more current wrongs?

    Forget the past, forget the present and forget what is yet to come. Hallelujah !

    Speaking of which, there were comfort women servicing Japanese soldiers in Indonesia too.

    Yes, and these Indonesian comfort women would see no justice in keeping your stance and “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”

  7. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 3:42 pm

    Iamisaid,

    Yes, interesting analogy. But I’d say the Man in the analogy was already abusing his wife and family. There was an exhibition a few years back at the Museum Nasional about Javanese slaves in South Africa. The sellers ? Yes, you guessed it, the forebears of the current chain of filthy scumbags, back then “Jagoan” kampung and the retinue of mercenaries stretching right up to the Sultans of different Kingdoms, mostly in West Java.

    Have a look at what Pramoedya wrote about the practice of “sungkem” in his books, especially “Jejak Langkah.”

  8. avatar Mr. TicTacToe says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 4:00 pm

    It ends up with me sexually abusing his wife and daughter in their house when Mr. X is away.

    You are one sick old man. :)
    J/K!!

    Should Indonesia seek compensation from the Netherlands?

    No, we, indonesians, should not.
    We have to stop having that kind of victim mentality, and start to grow.

    “But, but, they took so many, and then our corrupted leader (who were educated by the dutch, BTW) made it worse”, yea yea, big deal! cut the crap and kill that whiny mentality already!

  9. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 4:11 pm

    Yo! Achmad Sudarsono,

    Iamisaid,

    Yes, interesting analogy. But I’d say the Man in the analogy was already abusing his wife and family.

    HA HA HA HA HA

    The sellers ? Yes, you guessed it, the forebears of the current chain of filthy scumbags, back then “Jagoan” kampung and the retinue of mercenaries stretching right up to the Sultans of different Kingdoms, mostly in West Java.

    Have a look at what Pramoedya wrote about the practice of “sungkem” in his books, especially “Jejak Langkah.”

    I wouldn’t doubt you on that.
    Next time I am in Indonesia, I’ll try to look up the BookStores.

    Between – different topic, about Indonesian Taboos. I came across this book “Saman” written by Ayu Utami. Very strong credits given to the writer. I hope to find this book too.

  10. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 4:19 pm

    Mr. Tic Tac Toe,

    You are one sick old man.
    J/K!!

    I’ll accept that. There’s some fun in being a sick old man. Ha ha ha ha
    Back in Bangkok, they called me a “dangerous old man”
    My son calls me a “senile old man”
    In the Philippines they called me a “dirty old man”
    My wife never stops telling me that I am a “silly old man”
    My Insurance Agent always reminds me that I am a genius just to make another Policy sale. LOL!

    Soon I shall try my luck with the Guiness Book of Records as the old man with the most names.

  11. avatar Teng says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 5:14 pm

    I came across this book “Saman” written by Ayu Utami. Very strong credits given to the writer. I hope to find this book too.

    Its a good book. I had the chance to have a cup of tea with and talk to Ayu Utami when she visited Leiden a couple of years ago. Very intelligent woman.

  12. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 5:52 pm

    Friend,

    Also on a different topic. My main criticism of Ayu Utami is that she doesn’t address or discuss Pancasila in her writings. Really, all Indonesian artists should be celebrating this great tradition of ours.

  13. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 6:22 pm

    Yo Achmad Sudarsono,

    she doesn’t address or discuss Pancasila in her writings. Really, all Indonesian artists should be celebrating this great tradition of ours.

    Reminiscing my 7 years to date of countless visits to Indonesia, there has not been a single occasion in my meetings with Indonesians of various walks of life, who have ever mentioned/discussed Indonesia’s Pancasila with me.

    Just my guess here, perhaps to a majority of Indonesians, because there is a such a seemingly unbridgeable chasm between what they have to meekly kowtow to versus what the 5 Principles advocates, the Indonesians have lost faith in it or at best they give it lip service.

    If my memory serves right, the last time President SBY brought up the matter of reviving the Pancasila, it was met with discord and refutation. By that token, it reinforces what I guess – the peoples of Indonesia are still not embracing it.

  14. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:
    December 20th, 2007 at 7:57 pm

    dear IamIsaid,

    That is because Pancasila is in their hearts. It shines forth in the spirit of Indonesia – in sharp contrast to the spirit of the Bule. Mbak Ayu is different because she is an artis and should be explaining the Pancasila.

    I think you should also study it to open your eyes to our ways.

  15. avatar Dragonwall says:
    December 21st, 2007 at 3:02 am

    War criminal must be punish in someway or another. Nothing must be left unturned for atrocities. I have set up an email address where there will be people receiving emails will look into the case of Dutch colonial atrocities and discrimination for 2 centuries between 1740 and 1945.

    I am seeking more assistance from some lawyer friends to look into the Staatsblad and establish facts of discrimination and segregation against minorities during their occupation.

    Once establish, we shall gather support from Indonesians by the thousand for them to furnish proof, damage, and others before a suit will be brought forward. We hope the words gets out far and wide near and far. I won’t be handling this but a lady friend will do that for me.

    Interested parties could email to sue_the_dutch@yahoo.com.

  16. avatar falcon says:
    December 21st, 2007 at 10:23 am

    If Indonesia was better managed after its independence, especially after Order Baru, The country and especially the people will not be as poor and less educated otherwise. Because of Indonesia sad state, cause some people to think and divert the attention for the possibility of seeking compensation for the colonization of the country. What Indonesia has gotten from the Japanese for the war compensation, If not mistaken, Wisma Nusantara, Hotel Niko, (who owns it now and where does the profit go) and perhaps Glora Senayan, In the past 40 years the country wealth has been raped, its forest, minerals, ocean, historical artifacts, tradition and many others someday worth mentioning. Independence of Indonesia and as NKRI is absolute, but what if the independence was handed over gradually over time while the bureaucrats are trained, may be after all this country would be in a better shape. Time certainly can not be turned back, since Indonesia have yet to invent the time machine. After order baru, Atonomi Daerah is implemented and the problem arising from it is immense and is still being sorted out. Many people have fantastic titles, Drs, Ir, SE, MBA, SH or a chain of titles after their ranking, but yet the mess of management is endless. We should be wondering is it easier to manage people without titles or most difficult managing people with titles, because they have endless counter arguments whether it make sense or implementable is less important.

  17. avatar Janma says:
    December 21st, 2007 at 10:49 am

    I won’t be handling this but a lady friend will do that for me.

    ooooo…. dragonwall has a lady friend!!!

  18. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 21st, 2007 at 1:49 pm

    Hi dragonwall,

    War criminal must be punish in someway or another. Nothing must be left unturned for atrocities. I have set up an email address where there will be people receiving emails will look into the case of Dutch colonial atrocities and discrimination for 2 centuries between 1740 and 1945.

    I am seeking more assistance from some lawyer friends to look into the Staatsblad and establish facts of discrimination and segregation against minorities during their occupation.

    Once establish, we shall gather support from Indonesians by the thousand for them to furnish proof, damage, and others before a suit will be brought forward. We hope the words gets out far and wide near and far. I won’t be handling this but a lady friend will do that for me.

    Interested parties could email to sue_the_dutch@yahoo.com.

    Admirable indeed!

  19. avatar TheWrathOfGrapes says:
    December 21st, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    Why are we seeking compensation from the Dutch? The real plunder, pillage and rape of the country occurs in the last few decades. Shouldn’t we look inward to see where the leakages are, instead of blaming foreigners who have long left the shore?

  20. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    December 21st, 2007 at 7:59 pm

    WP said

    I’ll not pretend to know much about history, but can anyone perhaps give more specific info on these meant colonial atrocities?

    To insure that the VOC maintained its monopoly of the spice trade in Maluku in the 17th century, the Company regularly carried out its infamous policing actions called hongi-raids. Since the native population saw no need to adhere to this stricture and continued to sell to all comers, the Dutch pressed native populations to do service on korakora (big outrigger-perahus used for naval warfare and as ceremonial vessels) fleets which patrolled the Banda Sea. To make sure that their supply remained constant and that no surplus could tempt their rivals, the Dutch resorted to the brutal policy of either cutting down the cengkeh (clove) trees or peeling back their bark and leaving the trees to rot and die. Destroying the spice trees meant that the livelihood of the people on the islands was lost.
    During these times it was customary for the Dutch in the East-Indies never to go out without carrying a stick, the tongkat londo, as a token of their supremacy and contempt for the inlander.
    It wasn’t until the beginning of the 20th century that progressive politicians in The Hague demanded that the Indies be administered on a moral basis which favored the interests of the Indonesians rather than those of the Dutch government.

    Sputjam said

    Imagine for once, if indonesia is actually 7 seperate and distinct country, made up of 7 independent nations. We shall call these sumatra, java, Sumbawa, Molucca, Sulawesi, papua and kalimantan.

    Make it 8. I want Bali independent too. Unless we start from scratch and rebuild the Great Empire of Majapahit.
    Majapahit will rule again. Merdeka!

  21. avatar Sputjam says:
    December 21st, 2007 at 11:45 pm

    the greAT MAJAPAHIT empire (aptly named indonesia) presently includes irian jaya, thanks to the dutch. Had bali obtained indpendence, I can imagine casinos and girly bars being built there, making money from entertainment oppressed javanese and other malay muslims.
    At one time, the dutch were dominant traders in europe, thanks to their invention, the windmill, maybe 500 years ago. Due to this invention, they managed to reclaim land from the sea and swamps by making pumps powered by wind. later on, sawmills, cranes and grain grounding machines powered by wind were invented. They were building ocean going ships in vast numbers due to this, and controlled the baltic trade. timber from sweden and norway were used to make these well armed merchant ships. It was during this period also that australia was discovered, and off course indonesia, by the VOC.

    Dutch dominance in the ocean was not challenge until the coming of the british and the use of coal to power their industrial age, as oppose to the wind by the dutch.

    Funny thing is that the dutch never did pass on their know how in wind power technology to the natives of indonesia. Otherwise, t would have been a perfect match to power indonesia into some kind of industrialisation, as wooden(as oppose to metal) gears and cranksshafts compliment wind power very well using grease from animal fat to lubricate. The majapahit empire could have been a reality instead of dreams.

  22. avatar Dragonwall says:
    December 22nd, 2007 at 12:46 am

    Ha.ha.ha.ha.ha. Yeah

    ooooo”¦. dragonwall has a lady friend!!!

    Actually she is my colleague when I asked if she is willing to help out and she agrees in her free time.

    And as for this

    The real plunder, pillage and rape of the country occurs in the last few decades

    Agree what happens later is another thing. But the Dutch have to take the fall in the first place then come the latter. Whereas the Dutch law was continued to be in force when Soeharto came into power and till recently the Staasblad was even wrongly abolished that it brought into force a new form of discrimination to the minorities. This cannot continue to go on because things are creeping in slow and steady. Wrongly abolishing the Dutch law, the Sharia and the new discrimination. What is going to happen if they actually had that into force. The whole Indonesian economy will collapse into isolation. Then hat will happened to the population at large?

    My earlier posting was that the Indonesian census reported a low rate of poverty which I dismiss as sheer neglect and incompetency. Now SYB claims is about 16 % whereas Wiranto claimed the World Bank report of 49%. Who is right we don’t know but I gauge the poverty rate should far exceed the 50% level taking into consideration of currency weakening and high unemployment rates.

    BI was looking for the 7,500 barrier which I told them to keep dreaming. Today it is 9,800 and sell 9000. So those interest rate cut had a large chunk of money filling a bottomless hole right!. What are those guys in BI doing? What is the economy minister doing?

    In another case the ex Duta Besar of Malaysia was charge and found guilty of corruption on visa matters.

  23. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    December 22nd, 2007 at 1:33 am

    Sputjam said

    Funny thing is that the dutch never did pass on their know how in wind power technology to the natives of indonesia.

    Indonesia being too near the equator doesn’t have enough sustained wind power to make windmills operate succesfully.

  24. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 22nd, 2007 at 2:31 am

    dewaratugedeanom,

    Indonesia ….doesn’t have enough sustained wind power to make windmills operate succesfully.

    Despite the amount of petai that is consumed?

  25. avatar Dragonwall says:
    December 22nd, 2007 at 2:35 am

    How about bringing in the solar wind. The earth will be wiped out zero gravity…ha..ha..ha. com on la..i tol u i oledi chek no email la… gimana sih iamisaid..

  26. avatar Andrew says:
    December 22nd, 2007 at 5:36 am

    Bring the Dutch back, ask them to fix the banjir problem – after all managing water is one of their expertise.

    As for how we’d maintain the system after they leave, it’s an entirely different question LOL

  27. avatar Dragonwall says:
    December 22nd, 2007 at 6:00 am

    Asked them to bring in 100 billion build waterways, reservoirs, clean up the coast line and slump areas is good enough. But don’t leave the money with the Indonesian government with ARB and JK around. Mbak (tehy call him Mbah) Tardjo the war criminal is eyeing the presidency.

  28. avatar falcon says:
    December 22nd, 2007 at 10:15 am

    We should wonder if the did not Dutch colonized, most likely The Republic of Indonesia will never exist. Probably today it consisted of many small Kingdoms or countries with their own presidents/prime ministers. Thats the end of compensation and the while opinion and debate are endless.

  29. avatar iamisaid says:
    December 22nd, 2007 at 10:43 am

    We should wonder if the did not Dutch colonized, most likely The Republic of Indonesia will never exist. Probably today it consisted of many small Kingdoms or countries with their own presidents/prime ministers. Thats the end of compensation and the while opinion and debate are endless.

    The existence of Republic of Indonesia did not need the Dutch, at least not in the manner that the Dutch behaved towards the natives.

    1. They would have been better off without the Dutch. So what is wrong if that were to be true, that the Republic consisted of many small kingdoms warring against each other? It would be their own bloody affair.

    2. The English who were in tandem with the Dutch in the region, the former would have done a far more superior job in the archipelago.

    3. And most importantly because that is what this article is all about – the Indonesians would not have been persecuted like animals without recompense or justice meted.

    4. I take no offence, BUT falcon, if that it what you end your response with such a flourish, you committed an opinion did you not? And while you are at it, please tell Patung to drop “OPINION” from IM.

  30. avatar Teng says:
    December 23rd, 2007 at 1:13 am

    2. The English who were in tandem with the Dutch in the region, the former would have done a far more superior job in the archipelago.

    Are you sure about that? Have you seen the sh*t state India is in?

    Higher illiteracy, more poverty, more infant deaths, more HIV, lower life expectancy, lower GDP per person. And if you want to see the complete picture you should add Pakistan… which will make the numbers even paler.

    You seem to be a bit of a UK fanboy.

    And when I see this:

    the Indonesians would not have been persecuted like animals without recompense or justice meted.

    I wonder if you aren’t a bit over the top.

    Lets not forget Indonesians killed more Indonesians in a timespan of ONE year (65 till 66) then the Dutch were able to do in 350 years

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