Dutch Compensation

Dec 19th, 2007, in IM Posts, Opinion, by

Should Indonesia seek compensation from the Netherlands?

Should Indonesia seek Dutch compensation?

As I read more about the history of Indonesia, this question cropped up to tease me.

The question being this; should Indonesia demand compensation from the Dutch Government for their past atrocities and what they looted during their time in Indonesia?

I have neither come across any source which says that the Dutch have formally and unequivocally apologised for their past crimes against the Indonesians nor is there anything which says that Indonesia has absolved the Dutch.

The history of the VOC and the Dutch East Indies is filled with umpteen comments that relate about Dutch atrocities.

Comments such as this:

"It was the beginning of Dutch colonialism in Indonesia. ... In these outrageous expeditions countless atrocities were committed."

and this:

"For of all the countries, outside of Africa, that had suffered from colonialism, Indonesia was without a doubt plundered the most ferociously. When the Indonesian masses finally were able to declare their political independence, the rich archipelago was one of the most impoverished areas on earth."

and this,

"the Dutch had tried and ultimately failed to re-impose their colonial power on the country after World War II. In the process, the Dutch military were guilty of what official records call 'excesses' In the view of some who were there, these 'excesses' were nothing less than war crimes. The sense of denial and cover up is so strong, most Dutch historians won't touch it."

and this:

"Wim, a Dutch soldier with the rank of corporal was stationed in Western Java in the Bogor area. He saw the 'police action' in Indonesia as morally wrong and refused to shoot people. He refused to be in a position of some authority and asked to be relieved of his corporal's responsibilities. Accordingly, the commanding officer demoted him to serve as an ordinary soldier.

Wim's memories connected with experiences of that period were deeply repressed and disturbed him many years later when he was an older man. He witnessed much human misery, saw friends killed and innocent Indonesians slaughtered. Mutilated bodies were a common sight."

and this:

"This wall of denial has only increased over time. There is a general silence about the murders committed by the Dutch Army in the name of the Dutch kingdom.
The Indonesians are trying to forget their painful past. So no one wanted to ask, no one wanted to find out what happened and no one did. The ghosts of colonial misrule and murder linger over Indonesia, even today."

Historical Facts

1602 - 1799. Indonesia was "ruled" by the Dutch VOC, which were a combination of Dutch Companies.

1800. Dutch formally declared the archipelago as the Dutch East Indies under direct rule of the Dutch Government.

1949. Dutch were forced in by International pressure to recognize Indonesia's Independence declaration in 1945.

Additional details of Indonesian History Timeline: 1602 - 1949

1602, March 20th. Dutch companies combine to form Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie (VOC); led by Heeren XVII representing different regions of the Netherlands; States-General gives VOC power to raise armies, build forts, negotiate treaties and wage war in Asia.

VOC establishes post at Gresik.

The Dutch East India Company was given most of the powers of a sovereign state, partly because communication between the Netherlands and Asia was so slow that colonial activities simply could not be directed from Amsterdam.

1798. Dutch government revokes charter of VOC, assumes its debts and assets.

The VOC was losing money to corruption and political intrigues. By the end of the 1700s, it was fully bankrupt. On January 1st, 1800, it ceased to exist.

1800, January 1st. VOC formally dissolved; properties revert to Dutch government.

More of these excerpts from "Timeline of Indonesian History" can be seen at http://www.gimonca.com/sejarah/sejarah02.shtml

Compensation

Compensation from the Japanese Government was once thought to be beyond any hope for those comfort ladies who were forced to serve as sex slaves for the Japanese Forces during their Occupation.

After several generations and with the details of Dutch atrocities either forever lost or progressively becoming blurred, is it beyond any hope for Indonesia to demand compensation from the Dutch?

I am not aware if Indonesia considered it and representation for compensation was made to the Dutch Government.

Assuming that Indonesia did in fact request for compensation but did not succeed, the Dutch attitude finds a similar comparison from an observer's remark. It was about the gift that Queen Beatrix's gave to Indonesia during her official presence in Indonesia's for celebrations of their 50th anniversary of Independence.

~ and drum roll please....
The Queen presented the Indonesian people with a Friesian cow. It must have been her pet cow and it probably sat beside H.R.H Beatrix on Royal Dutch Airline - all the way to Indonesia.

"A cow and not a Rembrandt or a Van Gogh. Very rude. That's part of the Dutch soul, this rudeness."

the observer berated.

In the case of the Dutch, I do not know what a Friesian cow symbolises. I do know what a cow symbolises for the Hindus but then again, Indonesia is not predominantly Hindu. Oh well, it was better a cow than a Trojan Horse.

It could well have been a Dutch way to inform the Indonesians that if they hoped for any compensation, they would have to wait till the cows come home. However, the Dutch would mock and have their Queen to bring at least one cow home to Indonesia with their sentiment,

"In the name of William of Orange! be thankful for that."

By the way, anyone knows what has happened to that "royal" Friesian cow?

What about Dutch financial donations/loans, (not compensation)? I read the following. It relates to what happened 16 years ago.

"Multilateral aid to Indonesia was long an area of international interest, particularly with the Netherlands, the former colonial manager of Indonesia's economy. Starting in 1967, the bulk of Indonesia's multilateral aid was coordinated by an international group of foreign governments and international financial organizations, the Inter-Governmental Group on Indonesia. The IGGI was established by the government of the Netherlands and continued to meet annually under Dutch leadership, although Dutch aid accounted for less than 2 percent of the US$4.75 billion total lending arranged through the IGGI for FY 1991."

Note how small was the Dutch amount. *brings out my calculator.....4.75 billion x 2 percent = 95,000,000 tops,
but it was LESS than 95 million said the article. PEANUTS compared to what the Dutch plundered from Indonesia for 350 years.

Anyway, it went on to say that

"the IGGI was disbanded. The Indonesian government decided not to accept further financial assistance from Holland because the Dutch government intervened too deeply in its domestic political affairs. The World Bank formed a new consortium called the CGI (Consultative Group on Indonesia) to take over IGGI's role. Holland was not invited to join the CGI, and it has not become a member until today."

However, no matter how ludicrous the question might be plus the fact it would have other ramifications because the Dutch are not the only colonialist throughout the history of mankind, would compensation be possible?

As an aside comment regarding corruption in Indonesia vis-a-vis Indonesia's colonial past.

Aristotle once said:

"If you would understand anything, observe its beginning and its development."

Having read what was the cause for the demise of the VOC, I have this remark to make.

Quote:

"The VOC was losing money to corruption and political intrigues. By the end of the 1700s, it was fully bankrupt. On January 1st, 1800, it ceased to exist."

Therefore, apart from the human sufferings that the natives endured during the Dutch colonial period, is it tenable that corruption in post independent Indonesia is something the Indonesians witnessed and inherited from 200 years of VOC presence and presumably throughout the remaining 150 years of Dutch presence thereafter?


134 Comments on “Dutch Compensation”

  1. avatar iamisaid says:

    Hello dragonwall.

    iamisaid, I am still waiting for your email as I didn’t get the first you sent. tks

    Haiya, how come leh? I oledi send again to your yahoo address sommo from my yahoo account meh. The leonlzt one lehhh.

    Mebbe your email server have gremlins lorrr!

    Want to know about komodo dragons. They will sleep in front of your doosteps in the night. Just hope the sun doesn’t shine on them when their bodies gets heated up and the smell of mentruation, not necessary an open wound, they will just dash at you..ha..ha.. This happens to Try Sutrisno’s wife once..

    YIKES !!!

  2. avatar iamisaid says:

    Dear All – (Londo, Pena Budaya, bule gile, Sputjam, Janma, Achmad Sudarsono, Oigal, WP, Teng, Masindi, dewaratugedeanom, raden, wayan sudirta, colson, Anita McKay and dragonwall to date)

    Thank you each and everyone for your interesting views on this article.

    Cheers,

  3. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Dear All, but especially IamIsaid,

    Have to agree with WP above and Dewaratugede.

    The Dutch could never have done it without help from greedy and power hungry local kings, sultans, orang kaya (Bandas), not to mention the class of priyayis and radens.

    And do what ? As Mr. Dewarat. mentioned, they only really ruled for half a century.

    It’s so much easier for Indonesia to blame it’s third-world status on colonization, just like it’s easier to blame Suharto, blame the communists, blame the NEKOLIM. When you’re blaming someone else, you don’t have to take responsibility.

  4. avatar Chris says:

    “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” – Jesus Christ

    Ummm… does that mean the East Timorese, Papuans, Acehnese, etc. can sue Indonesia for their history of mistreatment too? Didn’t think so.

    How about Indonesia(ns) try righting some of the current and more recent wrongs before being high and mighty about past ones. Speaking of which, there were comfort women servicing Japanese soldiers in Indonesia too.

  5. avatar iamisaid says:

    Welcome back Achmad Sudarsono,

    The Dutch could never have done it without help from greedy and power hungry local kings, sultans, orang kaya (Bandas), not to mention the class of priyayis and radens.

    Point taken.

    Issue mooted : Should compensation be sought for the Dutch atrocities and for injustice?

    For want of a better comparison, I offer this.

    I shall be the bad guy for this hypothesis.

    Assuming that I am a wealthy and powerful person who gets acquainted with Mr. X. The latter is somewhere at the other end of the scale.

    Mr. X introduces his family to me and I make visits to his house.

    Mr. X uses me for favours.

    I have lecherous intentions for both Mr. X’s wife and daughter. I give my relationship with Mr. X an impetus because of my dark intentions.

    It ends up with me sexually abusing his wife and daughter in their house when Mr. X is away.

    I offer Mr. X and his family no apology.

    Mr. X’s wife and daughter have been placed in a mental asylum due to the trauma they suffered.

    People say that it is Mr. X’s fault and because of his greed he “sold” his family.

    Therefore, the crime is not mine. No restitution needed. No apology needed.

    It’s so much easier for Indonesia to blame it’s third-world status on colonization, just like it’s easier to blame Suharto, blame the communists, blame the NEKOLIM. When you’re blaming someone else, you don’t have to take responsibility.

    That was not the gist of this article. It was not blaming someone else for Indonesia’s economic malaise.

  6. avatar iamisaid says:

    Hi Chris,

    “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” – Jesus Christ

    How wonderful! Let sin and mayhem rule in a world of resigned silence.

    Ummm”¦ does that mean the East Timorese, Papuans, Acehnese, etc. can sue Indonesia for their history of mistreatment too? Didn’t think so.

    Sue?

    You mean to say that war crimes and crimes against humanity has no cause for Justice?

    How about Indonesia(ns) try righting some of the current and more recent wrongs before being high and mighty about past ones.

    But, did you not start by quoting Jesus. So why should you now say that Indonesia(ns) try to right some of the current and more current wrongs?

    Forget the past, forget the present and forget what is yet to come. Hallelujah !

    Speaking of which, there were comfort women servicing Japanese soldiers in Indonesia too.

    Yes, and these Indonesian comfort women would see no justice in keeping your stance and “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”

  7. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Iamisaid,

    Yes, interesting analogy. But I’d say the Man in the analogy was already abusing his wife and family. There was an exhibition a few years back at the Museum Nasional about Javanese slaves in South Africa. The sellers ? Yes, you guessed it, the forebears of the current chain of filthy scumbags, back then “Jagoan” kampung and the retinue of mercenaries stretching right up to the Sultans of different Kingdoms, mostly in West Java.

    Have a look at what Pramoedya wrote about the practice of “sungkem” in his books, especially “Jejak Langkah.”

  8. avatar Mr. TicTacToe says:

    It ends up with me sexually abusing his wife and daughter in their house when Mr. X is away.

    You are one sick old man. :)
    J/K!!

    Should Indonesia seek compensation from the Netherlands?

    No, we, indonesians, should not.
    We have to stop having that kind of victim mentality, and start to grow.

    “But, but, they took so many, and then our corrupted leader (who were educated by the dutch, BTW) made it worse”, yea yea, big deal! cut the crap and kill that whiny mentality already!

  9. avatar iamisaid says:

    Yo! Achmad Sudarsono,

    Iamisaid,

    Yes, interesting analogy. But I’d say the Man in the analogy was already abusing his wife and family.

    HA HA HA HA HA

    The sellers ? Yes, you guessed it, the forebears of the current chain of filthy scumbags, back then “Jagoan” kampung and the retinue of mercenaries stretching right up to the Sultans of different Kingdoms, mostly in West Java.

    Have a look at what Pramoedya wrote about the practice of “sungkem” in his books, especially “Jejak Langkah.”

    I wouldn’t doubt you on that.
    Next time I am in Indonesia, I’ll try to look up the BookStores.

    Between – different topic, about Indonesian Taboos. I came across this book “Saman” written by Ayu Utami. Very strong credits given to the writer. I hope to find this book too.

  10. avatar iamisaid says:

    Mr. Tic Tac Toe,

    You are one sick old man.
    J/K!!

    I’ll accept that. There’s some fun in being a sick old man. Ha ha ha ha
    Back in Bangkok, they called me a “dangerous old man”
    My son calls me a “senile old man”
    In the Philippines they called me a “dirty old man”
    My wife never stops telling me that I am a “silly old man”
    My Insurance Agent always reminds me that I am a genius just to make another Policy sale. LOL!

    Soon I shall try my luck with the Guiness Book of Records as the old man with the most names.

  11. avatar Teng says:

    I came across this book “Saman” written by Ayu Utami. Very strong credits given to the writer. I hope to find this book too.

    Its a good book. I had the chance to have a cup of tea with and talk to Ayu Utami when she visited Leiden a couple of years ago. Very intelligent woman.

  12. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Friend,

    Also on a different topic. My main criticism of Ayu Utami is that she doesn’t address or discuss Pancasila in her writings. Really, all Indonesian artists should be celebrating this great tradition of ours.

  13. avatar iamisaid says:

    Yo Achmad Sudarsono,

    she doesn’t address or discuss Pancasila in her writings. Really, all Indonesian artists should be celebrating this great tradition of ours.

    Reminiscing my 7 years to date of countless visits to Indonesia, there has not been a single occasion in my meetings with Indonesians of various walks of life, who have ever mentioned/discussed Indonesia’s Pancasila with me.

    Just my guess here, perhaps to a majority of Indonesians, because there is a such a seemingly unbridgeable chasm between what they have to meekly kowtow to versus what the 5 Principles advocates, the Indonesians have lost faith in it or at best they give it lip service.

    If my memory serves right, the last time President SBY brought up the matter of reviving the Pancasila, it was met with discord and refutation. By that token, it reinforces what I guess – the peoples of Indonesia are still not embracing it.

  14. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    dear IamIsaid,

    That is because Pancasila is in their hearts. It shines forth in the spirit of Indonesia – in sharp contrast to the spirit of the Bule. Mbak Ayu is different because she is an artis and should be explaining the Pancasila.

    I think you should also study it to open your eyes to our ways.

  15. avatar Dragonwall says:

    War criminal must be punish in someway or another. Nothing must be left unturned for atrocities. I have set up an email address where there will be people receiving emails will look into the case of Dutch colonial atrocities and discrimination for 2 centuries between 1740 and 1945.

    I am seeking more assistance from some lawyer friends to look into the Staatsblad and establish facts of discrimination and segregation against minorities during their occupation.

    Once establish, we shall gather support from Indonesians by the thousand for them to furnish proof, damage, and others before a suit will be brought forward. We hope the words gets out far and wide near and far. I won’t be handling this but a lady friend will do that for me.

    Interested parties could email to sue_the_dutch@yahoo.com.

  16. avatar falcon says:

    If Indonesia was better managed after its independence, especially after Order Baru, The country and especially the people will not be as poor and less educated otherwise. Because of Indonesia sad state, cause some people to think and divert the attention for the possibility of seeking compensation for the colonization of the country. What Indonesia has gotten from the Japanese for the war compensation, If not mistaken, Wisma Nusantara, Hotel Niko, (who owns it now and where does the profit go) and perhaps Glora Senayan, In the past 40 years the country wealth has been raped, its forest, minerals, ocean, historical artifacts, tradition and many others someday worth mentioning. Independence of Indonesia and as NKRI is absolute, but what if the independence was handed over gradually over time while the bureaucrats are trained, may be after all this country would be in a better shape. Time certainly can not be turned back, since Indonesia have yet to invent the time machine. After order baru, Atonomi Daerah is implemented and the problem arising from it is immense and is still being sorted out. Many people have fantastic titles, Drs, Ir, SE, MBA, SH or a chain of titles after their ranking, but yet the mess of management is endless. We should be wondering is it easier to manage people without titles or most difficult managing people with titles, because they have endless counter arguments whether it make sense or implementable is less important.

  17. avatar Janma says:

    I won’t be handling this but a lady friend will do that for me.

    ooooo…. dragonwall has a lady friend!!!

  18. avatar iamisaid says:

    Hi dragonwall,

    War criminal must be punish in someway or another. Nothing must be left unturned for atrocities. I have set up an email address where there will be people receiving emails will look into the case of Dutch colonial atrocities and discrimination for 2 centuries between 1740 and 1945.

    I am seeking more assistance from some lawyer friends to look into the Staatsblad and establish facts of discrimination and segregation against minorities during their occupation.

    Once establish, we shall gather support from Indonesians by the thousand for them to furnish proof, damage, and others before a suit will be brought forward. We hope the words gets out far and wide near and far. I won’t be handling this but a lady friend will do that for me.

    Interested parties could email to sue_the_dutch@yahoo.com.

    Admirable indeed!

  19. avatar TheWrathOfGrapes says:

    Why are we seeking compensation from the Dutch? The real plunder, pillage and rape of the country occurs in the last few decades. Shouldn’t we look inward to see where the leakages are, instead of blaming foreigners who have long left the shore?

  20. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:

    WP said

    I’ll not pretend to know much about history, but can anyone perhaps give more specific info on these meant colonial atrocities?

    To insure that the VOC maintained its monopoly of the spice trade in Maluku in the 17th century, the Company regularly carried out its infamous policing actions called hongi-raids. Since the native population saw no need to adhere to this stricture and continued to sell to all comers, the Dutch pressed native populations to do service on korakora (big outrigger-perahus used for naval warfare and as ceremonial vessels) fleets which patrolled the Banda Sea. To make sure that their supply remained constant and that no surplus could tempt their rivals, the Dutch resorted to the brutal policy of either cutting down the cengkeh (clove) trees or peeling back their bark and leaving the trees to rot and die. Destroying the spice trees meant that the livelihood of the people on the islands was lost.
    During these times it was customary for the Dutch in the East-Indies never to go out without carrying a stick, the tongkat londo, as a token of their supremacy and contempt for the inlander.
    It wasn’t until the beginning of the 20th century that progressive politicians in The Hague demanded that the Indies be administered on a moral basis which favored the interests of the Indonesians rather than those of the Dutch government.

    Sputjam said

    Imagine for once, if indonesia is actually 7 seperate and distinct country, made up of 7 independent nations. We shall call these sumatra, java, Sumbawa, Molucca, Sulawesi, papua and kalimantan.

    Make it 8. I want Bali independent too. Unless we start from scratch and rebuild the Great Empire of Majapahit.
    Majapahit will rule again. Merdeka!

  21. avatar Sputjam says:

    the greAT MAJAPAHIT empire (aptly named indonesia) presently includes irian jaya, thanks to the dutch. Had bali obtained indpendence, I can imagine casinos and girly bars being built there, making money from entertainment oppressed javanese and other malay muslims.
    At one time, the dutch were dominant traders in europe, thanks to their invention, the windmill, maybe 500 years ago. Due to this invention, they managed to reclaim land from the sea and swamps by making pumps powered by wind. later on, sawmills, cranes and grain grounding machines powered by wind were invented. They were building ocean going ships in vast numbers due to this, and controlled the baltic trade. timber from sweden and norway were used to make these well armed merchant ships. It was during this period also that australia was discovered, and off course indonesia, by the VOC.

    Dutch dominance in the ocean was not challenge until the coming of the british and the use of coal to power their industrial age, as oppose to the wind by the dutch.

    Funny thing is that the dutch never did pass on their know how in wind power technology to the natives of indonesia. Otherwise, t would have been a perfect match to power indonesia into some kind of industrialisation, as wooden(as oppose to metal) gears and cranksshafts compliment wind power very well using grease from animal fat to lubricate. The majapahit empire could have been a reality instead of dreams.

  22. avatar Dragonwall says:

    Ha.ha.ha.ha.ha. Yeah

    ooooo”¦. dragonwall has a lady friend!!!

    Actually she is my colleague when I asked if she is willing to help out and she agrees in her free time.

    And as for this

    The real plunder, pillage and rape of the country occurs in the last few decades

    Agree what happens later is another thing. But the Dutch have to take the fall in the first place then come the latter. Whereas the Dutch law was continued to be in force when Soeharto came into power and till recently the Staasblad was even wrongly abolished that it brought into force a new form of discrimination to the minorities. This cannot continue to go on because things are creeping in slow and steady. Wrongly abolishing the Dutch law, the Sharia and the new discrimination. What is going to happen if they actually had that into force. The whole Indonesian economy will collapse into isolation. Then hat will happened to the population at large?

    My earlier posting was that the Indonesian census reported a low rate of poverty which I dismiss as sheer neglect and incompetency. Now SYB claims is about 16 % whereas Wiranto claimed the World Bank report of 49%. Who is right we don’t know but I gauge the poverty rate should far exceed the 50% level taking into consideration of currency weakening and high unemployment rates.

    BI was looking for the 7,500 barrier which I told them to keep dreaming. Today it is 9,800 and sell 9000. So those interest rate cut had a large chunk of money filling a bottomless hole right!. What are those guys in BI doing? What is the economy minister doing?

    In another case the ex Duta Besar of Malaysia was charge and found guilty of corruption on visa matters.

  23. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:

    Sputjam said

    Funny thing is that the dutch never did pass on their know how in wind power technology to the natives of indonesia.

    Indonesia being too near the equator doesn’t have enough sustained wind power to make windmills operate succesfully.

  24. avatar iamisaid says:

    dewaratugedeanom,

    Indonesia ….doesn’t have enough sustained wind power to make windmills operate succesfully.

    Despite the amount of petai that is consumed?

  25. avatar Dragonwall says:

    How about bringing in the solar wind. The earth will be wiped out zero gravity…ha..ha..ha. com on la..i tol u i oledi chek no email la… gimana sih iamisaid..

  26. avatar Andrew says:

    Bring the Dutch back, ask them to fix the banjir problem – after all managing water is one of their expertise.

    As for how we’d maintain the system after they leave, it’s an entirely different question LOL

  27. avatar Dragonwall says:

    Asked them to bring in 100 billion build waterways, reservoirs, clean up the coast line and slump areas is good enough. But don’t leave the money with the Indonesian government with ARB and JK around. Mbak (tehy call him Mbah) Tardjo the war criminal is eyeing the presidency.

  28. avatar falcon says:

    We should wonder if the did not Dutch colonized, most likely The Republic of Indonesia will never exist. Probably today it consisted of many small Kingdoms or countries with their own presidents/prime ministers. Thats the end of compensation and the while opinion and debate are endless.

  29. avatar iamisaid says:

    We should wonder if the did not Dutch colonized, most likely The Republic of Indonesia will never exist. Probably today it consisted of many small Kingdoms or countries with their own presidents/prime ministers. Thats the end of compensation and the while opinion and debate are endless.

    The existence of Republic of Indonesia did not need the Dutch, at least not in the manner that the Dutch behaved towards the natives.

    1. They would have been better off without the Dutch. So what is wrong if that were to be true, that the Republic consisted of many small kingdoms warring against each other? It would be their own bloody affair.

    2. The English who were in tandem with the Dutch in the region, the former would have done a far more superior job in the archipelago.

    3. And most importantly because that is what this article is all about – the Indonesians would not have been persecuted like animals without recompense or justice meted.

    4. I take no offence, BUT falcon, if that it what you end your response with such a flourish, you committed an opinion did you not? And while you are at it, please tell Patung to drop “OPINION” from IM.

  30. avatar Teng says:

    2. The English who were in tandem with the Dutch in the region, the former would have done a far more superior job in the archipelago.

    Are you sure about that? Have you seen the sh*t state India is in?

    Higher illiteracy, more poverty, more infant deaths, more HIV, lower life expectancy, lower GDP per person. And if you want to see the complete picture you should add Pakistan… which will make the numbers even paler.

    You seem to be a bit of a UK fanboy.

    And when I see this:

    the Indonesians would not have been persecuted like animals without recompense or justice meted.

    I wonder if you aren’t a bit over the top.

    Lets not forget Indonesians killed more Indonesians in a timespan of ONE year (65 till 66) then the Dutch were able to do in 350 years

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