Poor People

Dec 14th, 2007, in IM Posts, Opinion, by Guest Writer

View the original article here.

54 Comments on “Poor People”

Pages: « 1 [2]

panera Says:
December 16th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
The goverment need to start planning to use the taxes money to pay for education for the people specialy the poor one, so they get better education. School from primary to high school sould be free. And THE GOVERMENT NEED TO create MORE jobs for all these people, that way it will eliminate poor living and less beggar.
WP Says:
December 16th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Begging is like bribery done on a lower level. Numerous beggars on the street means a probable failed state. Giving money to beggars means contributing to make the whole system less efficient, because these baggers do not contribute to any work.

That’s not true. They work. Sitting a whole day along the road, under the rain and sun heat is a hell of a work. To what effect, you would ask? Well, to the effect of redistribubing income. Some country has a whole infrastructure for doing that. Except that there they call it something Social Security rather than begging.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
December 16th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Poor maimed guy in the picture above. This is what we are going to see more often once syariah is in place.

Cukurungan said

“¦ no wonder if US Government always keen in pursuing a new conflict with other country in order to keep-up a new job creation like nursing and other medical job for treating theirs wounded soldiers.

Don’t worry. One day Indonesia will be on the same level as the US in new job creation like nursing and other medical jobs for treating their syariah convicts.
Ade Wanto Says:
December 16th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Hi iamisaid,

You say, “I decided that I would retire from regular employ when I turned 50.”
Why must wait till 50? But, I suggest, don’t throw your daily job even you suck on it. It hard to find a job than get rid of it.

Your answer : “Remember your humanity and forget the rest” (Albert Einstein)

I add: “Don’t bring your heart to heaven coz heaven know we need here” (Herbert Feith)

This is the country where 49% people live in poverty. But there is a minister to whom Indonesian give their hope has own 50 trillion rupiah in his pocket.
This is the country where 45% people unemployed. But there are political animals just smile and sing their song (even sing in front of Asian Idols) and still get sleep well even their fellow leader (in another countries) can’t get sleep enough when unemployment rate reach 4-5%. For 45% of unemployment rate, this guys really still smile wider. Suck!
iamisaid Says:
December 16th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Hi ade wanto,

You advised: “Why must wait till 50? But, I suggest, don’t throw your daily job even you suck on it. It hard to find a job than get rid of it.”

me: Ha ha ha, well ade, I did not retire out of being lazy. I had reasons in doing so for some to the given reasons which I related in my response above to dragonwall.

Yes, the way the job situation is versus an ever growing population, protectionism, economic blackmail, political and economic uncertainties, increasing racist activities, greed, unjust practices, more and more incapable people becoming leaders and the law of the jungle becoming a altruistic for mankind – I decided that my time, within my limited means, to return what God and my fellow beings have provided me during my productive years before my day arrives to bid this world farewell.

I have mentioned somewhere else at IM that I do some humanitarian work in Indonesia. I do it quietly with all respect to race, religion or status.

This I have always believed – that it would be a lie if I said that I love God Whom I do not see but fail to love humans whom I can see, talk and share with. Besides, it does not need one to be a religious freak to accomplish that.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 17th, 2007 at 11:01 am
Friend,

But poverty has benefit. With many poor, there will be many pembantu and more time to practice Ukuele and study Pancasila.

Iya ‘kan ?
Sputjam Says:
December 17th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
WP said -

That’s not true. They work. Sitting a whole day along the road, under the rain and sun heat is a hell of a work. To what effect, you would ask? Well, to the effect of redistribubing income. Some country has a whole infrastructure for doing that. Except that there they call it something Social Security rather than begging.

Maybe the government should evaluate its decision making process, because presently, it is inefficient. The jobless migrate to Jakarta to escape poverty and to start a new life, presumably looking for work. Reason they migrate in the first place is because there is a lack of opportunity in the province. If central government decision is de-centralise, then there will be more jobs available in the districts. You do not require jakarta to have final say in issuance of local businesses such as banks and TV/telcos stations as long as the conditions for such a business is met.

Ade Wanto said -

This is the country where 49% people live in poverty. But there is a minister to whom Indonesian give their hope has own 50 trillion rupiah in his pocket.

Indonesia is the largest ASEAN economy. But it does not look like one. The population is brainwashed to think that it is one of the poorest country on earth. This must be the only country whereby the government subsidies the rich and taxes the poor in the form of fuel subsidies instead of subsidising farmers like they do in the west.
iamisaid Says:
December 17th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Hi Sputjam,

You said: ” If central govenrment decision is de-centralise, then there will be more jobs available in the districts.”

me: That which I know of, the move to grant autonomy to the Provinces has not shown that effect (“more jobs available in the districts”) to date.

Take for example, Kepulauan Riau was granted self autonomy.

The Singapore-Kepulauan Riau bilateral agreement which would have brought more jobs to the Riau island populace has gone into a stalemate. Why? It was in the news both in Singapore and over INA tv where both parties pointed the blame at Jakarta.

Then the next question is – why Jakarta? This is just my speculation. Jakarta is arm twisting Singapore to repatriate Indonesians ill gotten wealth that Indonesians have laundered into Singapore Banks.

Singapore is bursting at her seams and is in need of more land space and human resource to support their dynamic economic growth. Knowing Singapore’s attitude, she would not give a damn if they are being counter threathened by some other agenda from Jakarta.

Jakarta by their intransigience staves off immediate economic advancement for the rakyat in the Provinces.

And you are correct in making that opening statement, “the (Indonesian) govenrment should evaluate its decision making process, because presently, it is inefficient.”
Dragonwall Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 3:23 am
Social Security rather than begging.

So Social Security is liken to begging?

Singapore have what they call the CPF (Central Provident Fund) similar to Social Security that were meant for old age. Unemployment benefits are for those temporarily unemployed. Both of that reflects on how much you have contributed to the fund before you were given in return. So does beggars contribute anything? No.. I guess thay are both different to what you were describing.
Mr. TicTacToe Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 10:57 am
@WP:
you said:

That’s not true. They work. Sitting a whole day along the road, under the rain and sun heat is a hell of a work. To what effect, you would ask? Well, to the effect of redistribubing income.

I have to disagree on this. The simplest principle of working is this: you work you produce goods or services. With no value added to economy, they are burden to workforce at best, parasite at worst.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate them, some disabled poor are just that, and they do deserve attentions, but most others are simply liars, in their home village they have the biggest houses, and that alone lure the next generations to do exactly what they do.

This is a dillematic reality. As much as i wanted to help, I don’t want it to be just like pouring salt into the sea. This could happen someday, i might give money to some beggars who owns more than i am.

About redistributing income. The possibility of what can be taken as redistributing income is endless, we can also say corruption is redistributing income if beggars are included to that. After all, begging is a form of moral corruption, if the beggars can still actually do something else for living.

Even beggars should have integrity, real beggars who really have to beg should form kaypang or something.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Also, I think a lot of the poor people smell. Why are they so smelly ? Also, I think they should dress a bit better. At least Ramayana-quality clothes. It’s so unpresentable when they come up to the car wearing an unwashed and ragged shirt.
Janma Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
An Indonesian couple I know in Jakarta work full time and leave their baby home with a sitter. After awhile they came to notice the baby was getting quite dark skin, like she’d been in the sun too much. they told the sitter to keep her out of the sun. A week or so later a friend of the family was driving downtown and saw their child being held at the traffic light by a beggar lady! The sitter had been hiring the baby out for the day while the parents were at work!
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Janma,

Is that a true story !!??! You have amazing stories.

What did they do ??

Achmad
dewaratugedeanom Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Sputjam said

In other words, pay some money to these guys to make them do some beneficial work.

A survey made in Denpasar has shown that begging yields an average income of 10,000 IRP a day. For living in a remote village this seems enough, so these people have no incentive whatsoever to work. They are brought in daily by the truckloads from area’s like Bangli and Karangasem and they are returned after dark. Lots of them only accept cash and refuse food or even small jobs for better pay. Practically all women beggars carry babies and, as Janma also stated, the story goes that those with no baby of their own rent them from other women, at a price of course.
The authorities have tried to counteract but to no avail. Sometimes they are raided and sent home under police escort but the next day they will simply start over. Sosialisasi campaigns to make people stop from giving don’t seem to work, probably for religion-related reasons.
It’s a sad problem. Most beggars are resigned and don’t expect or even want another lifestyle. My personal attitude is as follows
- I never give to children or women carrying a child
- I never give to young adults unless they show signs of disease or cacat.
- I always give to old people who seem helpless.
WP Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Tictactoe:

I have to disagree on this. The simplest principle of working is this: you work you produce goods or services. With no value added to economy, they are burden to workforce at best, parasite at worst.

I fail to see why beggaring doesn’t produce services. Like I said, their service is the redistribution of income. Economy is not a simple input-output machinery. Income redistribution is a valid goal of any economy that pretends to be just.

…we can also say corruption is redistributing income

Indeed. But begaring won’t cost us much in terms of wasted effeciency, while corruption can waste all. In particular for Indonesia, since all of our beggars have no education, so even if they work, their production value is small. So we don’t lose much anyway. From this perspective I don’t see why you should complain so much about beggars, even if they are all liars. Perhaps if we concentrate on improving our education level, then we can catch two flies with one smack.
Dragonwall Says:
December 18th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Why are they so smelly Smelly armpit. They don’t wash to make them look bonafide, otherwise with Ramayana style there might have a new name for them. Like Beggar management.

Yes and Janma said is very true. Unscrupulous syndicate systematically recruit people, borrowed people child and baby alike, like in China, just for their greed or personal. There are people who beg for a living because they are poor. There are people who does recruiting cannot be look upon as poor beggars but they beg with a motive other than being poor.

I entirely disagree to the word redistribution of income. It is just people who utilize the ‘sikon’ to capitalize on it and should be considered as lynching simply the government does not seemed to bother or is unable to overcome the problem. But even if the government is capable it will still be another day’s job for them, easy income. Old habit dies hard.

With unscrupulous government officials, inefficient government the society never improve. The quality of life remains stagnant going back in time. Nothing is moving forward.

There are people who even pretends to be sick, as a new techniques of begging, like carrying along with them a doctor’s prescription and go around begging for money for medicine. At the beginning I thought that to be real. But it seems that these people go to Glodok to beg with the same old tricks that I later found out. These people are lynching on the kind heart of society.
Janma Says:
December 19th, 2007 at 11:07 am
in bali there is an entire village near kintamani where it is their tradition to go out and beg. They all must do it, they say it’s a curse they have on their village and if they don’t do it disaster will fall….
The story about the baby in jakarta is true. They fired the baby sitter. They did not call the police. (last thing people here think of doing usually.
I used to live in Bengal, India and people there cannot be a beggar UNLESS they belong to a syndicate. They won’t allow them, all the streets are someones turf. I saw a woman rub her child (Maybe her child) leg stump (he had an amputated leg) on the gravel of the street to make it bleed once, cause she saw some rich hindoo coming her way.
Achmad Sudarsono Says:
December 19th, 2007 at 11:14 am
Janma,

Wow. Has there been anything written any where – articles or anything on that place in Kintamani ? And do they call water there “Air Mani” he he he ?

That’s a very interesting, if completely sick (in India) phenomenon. It’s why I was trying to impress upon the good Mr. IamIsaid that whilst homo sapiens sapiens has her uplifting moments, she and he is still a very violent species.
Janma Says:
December 19th, 2007 at 11:24 am
However, as a note on the India story above, that is in towns and cities not in villages, and it is also excepting holy people. Holy people beg all over India and they do not belong to any syndicate and most Indian households consider it good luck if a holy man come to the house to ask for alms. The front doorsteps are decorated with rice flour patterns. These patterns can mean many different things, special days have special designs. There are certain things that one puts at ones door to give sign to the holy men that they can beg there. I remember being told ‘we put this here to attract beggars…it’s for good luck.’
Janma Says:
December 19th, 2007 at 11:29 am
About the village in Bali… it’s trunyan, a bali age village. they say if they don’t go and beg then they get sick, or bad things happen etc. Many balinese are embarrassed to talk about this phenomenon. I just went downstairs and asked my staff, they all said it was their tradition there.
Dragonwall Says:
December 21st, 2007 at 1:27 am
Poor people begging as a mean of obtaining income for whatever use they intend for.
But:
Holy people beg all over India and they do not belong to any syndicate and most Indian households consider it good luck if a holy man come to the house to ask for alms. The front doorsteps are decorated with rice flour patterns.
This is different. It is like monks practicing they daily belief since Buddhism evolved.

Beggin for alms like food and flowers in a two way karma effect.

The giver offers their sincerity as they possibl could. a little something for the monk or holy begging whereas the receiver returns with the alms for prayers and help the giver lessen their sin in their previous life.

I guess there are some difference in this kind of begging and they do similar to Hinduism in India and Bali. Try visiting Sai Baba. he is thought to be a reincarnation of someone holy.
dewaratugedeanom Says:
December 23rd, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Achmad Sudarsono said

Wow. Has there been anything written any where – articles or anything on that place in Kintamani ? And do they call water there “Air Mani” he he he ?

Trunyan is a village of about 600 people on the shore of lake Batur, only accessible by boat or walking. Its people, called Bali Aga, are the island’s oldest inhabitants who lived here long before Majapahit.
Legend has it the village was founded on the spot where an ancient taru menyan tree stood, hence the name of the place. It was said that in ancient times the lake goddess Dewi Danu was lured from heaven by the lovely scent of the tree. The tree is the lair of underworld spirits (bhuta kala) who are attracted by decomposing meat and corpses, which may explain why they don’t bury or cremate their dead but leave them to rot in the open.
The people, mostly inbred, still live outside of the mainstream. Most of them are fishermen. Although they plant some crops in plots near the lakeshore they have no rice fields. Since ancient times they rely on begging to supplement their meager diet.
All in all a scary place, full of litter, sampah and money-hungry hustlers. But the setting is spectacular.

I don’t know if they call water ‘Air Mani’, but if you go there better make sure to bring your own drinks. You never know with these people.
revo Says:
May 10th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
1. in the kingdom on beggars, syndicate really exists. i believe things shown in slumdog millionaire happen in some countries.
2. that begging is lucrative business is true. once they beg, they won’t work.
3. that most of Indonesians are nonchalant is true ( i am Indonesian )

we are not talking about compassion, poverty, GDP or beggar’s chronicle. we are talking about vicious circle in a mismanaged country.

most of Indonesian are not well educated. they, then, fail to elect the right person on the right place. the elected leaders, who are not really keen on leading, creates wrong systems. the wrong system effects on bad education in schools and at large. bad education system may create people less educated, and so the story goes.

these are what we can do to eliminate the problem
1. Long term action.
educate them. if you are teachers, make sure you fulfill the 10 standards of US teachers
2. Mid Term Action
some less- fortunate -then -beggars still do work. in case beggars will stop begging, i agree with what SPUTJAM said.
3. short ten action:
dont be nonchallant. give alm to the needy, but make sure you choose the right person on the right place.
tio ndun Says:
February 7th, 2012 at 10:42 am
many people say indonesia is growing country but there are many place are not good for that. rural proverty is bad effec for that. the goverment must be solve this case.