Bahai

Nov 1st, 2007, in IM Posts, by

View the original article here.


396 Comments on “Bahai”

Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 13 14 »

  1. avatar Susan says:
    December 25th, 2007 at 12:47 am

    Someone wrote:

    “I believe as human we have self determination and freedom. But, in Islamic culture, if someone says (something like these:), “I am moslem but I reject Muhammad as Prophet.” and/or “I am moslem but I believe there is another prophet after Muhammad.” and/or “I am moslem therefore I guarantee all of you to reach the heaven for sum of money.” The other moslems have an obligation to warn those people which claim they are moslems but they thought is totally different from Quran abd Hadist. Accordingly, in Islam, those issues are not about freedom. However. if they don’t claim themselves as moslems, I believe, there are no warning from other moslems. If Bahai can live in another country outside Indonesia, I don’t think that Indonesian people or govt matter, its theirs.”

    Baha’is, unlike the Ahmadis, do not claim to be Muslims so this should not be an issue. Besides that, Muslims are entitled to warn others about whomsoever they want to. That is part of freedom of speech, after all. The issue here is about active persecution (by throwing rocks at thier houses) and government harrassment of Baha’is (interrogations, tell them to go home and think about which *legal* religion they want to follow, etc.) Most people do not have a choice as to which country they will live in. It sounds like here that we are talking about humble villagers who have become Baha’i. Are you willing to provide them with the means to immigrate to America so they can practice their religion freely? If so, I’m sure they will have hundreds of thousands of new converts but probably not the most sincere ones. ;-}

    warmest, Susan

  2. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    December 25th, 2007 at 4:27 pm

    Susan said:

    Then why does the Qur’an say, ‘none knoweth its interpretation safe God”?

    Susan, the complete verse says:

    He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. 3:7

    Complete, perfect, and fully detailed, doesn’t necessarily mean that humans can understand the full meaning. Allah explains to us in this verse, that we should follow the parts that we what we understand and not argue about the others, doesn’t he?

    Susan said:

    There are no historical accounts of Muhammad’s life
    other than those based on hadiths. Otherwise what is the source of
    your ‘historical facts;?

    Susan, we can start with ‘Sirah Rasul Allah’ written by Ibn Ishak, however only fragments of this remain, we can then use ‘The Life of Mohammed’ which is a complete although edited version of the earlier work ‘Sirah Rasul Allah’ written by Ibn Hisham. These Sirah are different from Hadith as they are simply biographical histories, and were not intended as sources of divine law. Most certainly they contain embellishments of The Prophet, but these are easily ignored, as what we are mostly interested in is dates and events. There are many other authors of ‘Sirah’ as well as contemporary historians, who were writing at that time.

    There are other sources of historical data such as the various treaties The Prophet made with varied groups, such as the treaty of St Catherines Monastery in Sinai, a copy of which still exists, and the Agreement made with the Christians of Najran in Southern Arabia. If one reads these treaties one is given a much clearer picture of the nature of The Prophet.

    One article from the Najran Treaty reads:
    The lives of the people of Najran and its surrounding area, their religion, their land, property, cattle, and those of them who are present or absent, their messengers and their places of worship are under the protection of Allah and guardianship of His Prophet.

    From the St Catherines Monastery:
    This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
    Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
    No compulsion is to be on them.
    Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.
    No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.
    Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
    No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.
    The Muslims are to fight for them.
    If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.
    Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.
    No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

    The Compact of Medina says:
    The Jews of Banu `Awf are one nation with the Muslims; the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs.

    Article 16 of the treaty reads,

    The Jew who follows us are surely entitled to our support and the same equal rights as any one of us. He shall not be wronged nor his enemy be assisted.

    There are numerous Jewish and Christian documents which can also be used for corroboration of the facts. There is no need to refer to Hadith which were in the most part fabricated by later scholars who were in the employ of the Rulers of the Land, much as happens in present day Saudi Arabia. The Hadith cannot compare with the teachings of Al Quran and their implementation by The Prophet as described in the treaties above.

    How many Mainstream Muslins know of the words in these treaties, how many know the tolerance, justice, and freedom of religion which The Prophet used to uphold?

    Peace

  3. avatar ade wanto says:
    December 25th, 2007 at 6:17 pm

    Hello Susan,

    You says: Baha’is, unlike the Ahmadis, do not claim to be Muslims so this should not be an issue.

    In fact in Indonesia Bahai’s claim they same as Islam but have a little differences. I don’t know if in other area (country) Bahai’is do not claim to be Moslem. I also believe if Bahai’is convey its belief to Indonesians Christians, Catholics, Hinduism, Buddhism, they will be do as same as Indonesians Moslems do.

    Bill says, “The threatening of Baha’is in Muslim countries is not a good business. It will not redound to the good name of Islam, whose truth Baha’is in the West defend.”

    That’s why Indonesians Moslems reject Bahai’is coz Bahai’is, in Indonesian moslem thought, hijack Islam. That’s why Indonesian Moslems reject Bahai even their belief is not same as Ahmadis, Haqq, or other cult that hijack Islam in Indonesia. After some observation, for us, Indonesian Moslems, unfortunately Bahai’is is just one of sect which hijack Islam. They spread their belief by quoting Quran and Hadist too. I think what Bahai’is do in Indonesia just same as Ahmadis, Haqq, and other cult that crystal clear MUI (Majelis Ulama Indonesia -an organization which all Indonesian moslem organization represent) reject those.

    As human I believe we have freedom. But as you say, “Most people do not have a choice as to which country they will live in.” If they want to live in Indonesia, I believe they must accept Indonesian laws. Unfortunately the Republic of Indonesia is not the United States of America. In Indonesia, the law says you must declare your religion (from 6 religions that govt legally accepted). In US, I think you have freedom not to declare it. So, in Indonesia, govt officer have a right to interrogating people include what legal religion that they want to follow. That’s fact in Indonesia.

    However, I agree with you that no one can throw stone to other (believer), burn their house, their things, and their properties unless their will arrest by police. For me, those acts are criminals. As far I know, those bad manner and behave was heritage from colonialism era (devide et impera) that bring over to post colonialism era even in Soekarno and Soeharto era. I believe most Indonesians never agree to them who throw to other just cause by differences whatsoever they differences: religion, race, etc.

    This day, we, Indonesians, has been living in an era of transition just for five years. But I believe moral and political manner some Indonesian peoples already change. At least they are in progress. For many peoples like me which accept multiculturalism in Indonesia still believe tomorrow will be better for Indonesian as long as we convey that we must respect all differences. I believe we as Indonesians must learn how to be different after 32 years, we have been forced to live with “No Room for A Single Difference” in mind. There are many homework to be done to make many Indonesian accept multiculturalism.

    To answer your question: “Are you willing to provide them with the means to immigrate to America so they can practice their religion freely? If so, I’m sure they will have hundreds of thousands of new converts but probably not the most sincere ones.”

    No I’m not. Coz I don’t have anything to provide it. But, I think, it will be better if Bahai’s will come 10 or 15 years later. Unluckily for Bahai go to Indonesia at wrong time. Mebbe they must wait until I become one of the President of the Republic of Indonesia few years later. Ha ha ha

    It’s colder here in rainy season in Indonesia. But, sure, your post and Bill too warm me up. Convincing me there are many peoples that those who believe we must respect other believe and differences.

    But, for this moron guy that says: “And most importantly allows the goodness of Al Quran to be freed from the predjudiced view points of middle ages, male, Islamic so called scholars, who have used Hadith to twist the pure teachings of God into an ugly distorted parody of what was Gods intentions.”

    Susan, I do agree with you to someone act as a moslem but reject hadist. As you, Susan, says, “There are no historical accounts of Muhammad’s life other than those based on hadiths. Otherwise what is the source of your ‘historical facts?”

    As Moslems that do not live at same time with the Prophet Muhammad, where is the place that we can know what Muhammad did and said in whole his life unless come from hadist. Unless someone (like this moron guy) can provide another resources that provide right information of it that I believe don’t. However, I do believe there are some fake hadist. So we as Moslems must aware of it. Again, I ask, where does Moslems get a source of Muhammad wisdom unless from Hadist? Even this moron’s name put from Arabic and seem have knowledge about Quran and Islam, that’s no guarantee this moron aim is not confusing Moslem mind.

    And, to remind myself, firstly, this moron guy says, Moslem must rejects hadist. Secondly, this moron says, moslem must deny sharia. And, then, after that those I suggest all moslems must heed this moron as prophet. Whoops.

    If really Indonesians must reject sharia, I guess, this moron should go to the Treasure Department of Republic of Indonesia that give permit to all banks and insurance companies (include multinational corp) sell their sharia products. If some laws in Indonesia that those prohibit prostitution, homosexual practice, alcoholism, drugs, I don’t think, it’s not about sharia. That such laws aim to prevent all Indonesians not only Moslems. But, if another country allows prostitution, homosexual practice, alcoholism, drugs, and Indonesians must allow it too, for me, it will jeopardy all Indonesians as a nation. Indonesians still believe prostitution, homosexual practice, alcoholism, drugs, will destroy society.

    And, this moron says: “Gods scriptures, all of them, were sent to release people from political, economic and physical tyranny, unfortunately they have been twisted by clerics and scholars of all religions to enforce and impose these facets of evil which the scriptures were sent to destroy.”

    Who have been twisted by their clerics and scholars? Is this moron guy that says moslem must reject sharia and deny hadist that have been twisted or what? Hello Snouck!

    This moron says: “I have never said that these other examples you have given are God and it really doesn’t matter who you think is Allah, that decision will only be made by Allah.”

    After he says: “Allah simply means The God, if you think it isn’t properly used by Christians and they are somehow using it to mislead people, perhaps you had better refer to the many Arab Christians, living in The Middle East, Africa and other parts of Asia. In fact you can also refer to the Arabic speaking Jews, who use the same word, even the pre Islamic Arabic Pagans used the word.”

    I wonder after read those this moron will says, “Oh, I am sorry about my bad English, I should say this (….. sh*ts).”

    Of course, I admit my English is worse. Nevertheless, I believe, language is strategic for oppressed and representational for someone to become a ruler. Thus language is weapon, dissemblance, seduction, apologia -anything you want, in fact, but representational. So, as Joy Tolson says that I quote before, “Beware of those who say that the sacred texts speak for themselves.”

    As for me, “The blind and the seeing are not equal, nor are the darkness and the light”.

    I wish a great wonderful day for you all. Great holidays too. And, Happy New Year. (For sure, but not to this f*cking sh*t moron that name put from Arabic language, of course)

  4. avatar ade wanto says:
    December 26th, 2007 at 8:05 am

    Bill says : The purpose of the Baha’i Faith is to unite all the peoples of the world in one universal cause and one common faith.

    Bill says : Baha’is accept as authenticated scripture all of the revelations of Baha’u'llah, as well as the Qur’an, and the Bible.

    Bill says : If the Prophet could shed His light upon idolaters, surely Muslims, who follow Him, can show good will and compassion to Baha’is who believe in the one true God and the successive the Messengers.

    In this modern civilization, all religion has created into divisions and hostilities within different religious traditions as well as among themselves thus it has led to acts of unspeakable and unbelievable violence. Therefore although I really respect to peoples who believe that those can unite all different religious people in one universal and one common faith thus they accept as authenticated scripture all of the revelations of Baha’u'llah, as well as the Qur’an and the Bible then believe in the one true God and the successive the Messengers, as a moslem, I still think Bahai’is is contradictory to Islam even they convey their belief originally come from Quran that moslem heed.

    Moslem is not only saying Allah is my god. Of course, Allah has told that before Muhammad there were people called moslems it because they believe in monotheistic constitution. However, since Abraham then David, Moses, and Isa, Allah was revealed that in the near future it come Ahmad that bring a brand new religion that make all monotheistic religion has come to perfect. Quran also stated clearly all people that follow Abraham, David, Moses, and Isa called Peope of the Book.

    And, Moslem as we know today, and since Muhammad was conveying Islam, are not same as People of the Book. Moslem nowadays must heed five pillars of Islam beside six basic belief of Islam. Surely I don’t think the shahadat as the first of Islam pillars will be changed to be as well as La illaha illa Allah only omit Muhammad as Rasulullah. And, I wonder there is a sign in this forum someone try to enforce people to believe that moslem must reject hadist, sharia, and then five pillars of Islam especially shahadat and others. I am positively sure that they will convey that as believer you just believe that god is One and it doesn’t matter what your religion you will come to the one and only god if believe and follow us. Whoops.

    FYI, as I quote before : “My sons, do not enter from one gate; enter from different gates. In no way can I shield you from the might of Allah; judgement is Allah alone. In Allah I have put my trust. In Allah let the faithful but their trust.” (Quran 12:67)

    Above is the verse that Allah guarantee there is still a room for difference among moslems but, I do believe, the difference is not to make all religion as well as Islam. I quote this verse: Say: “I am but an ordinary people like yourselves. It is revealed to me that your God is one God. Let him that hopes to meet his Lord do what is right and worship none beside his Lord.” This verse is Islamic way to respect all differences among religious traditions.

    Although as human I respect diversities (as a moslem I must respect differences and for me what is your believe is yours. What am I believe, it’s mine. You don’t have to worship what I worship nor I don’t have to worship yours) however what Bahai’is convey is contradictory to Islam as a way of life coz they mix all contradictory thought of reigion. I must say: “The blind and the seeing are not equal, nor are the darkness and the light. The shade and the heat are not equal, nor are the living and the dead. Allah can cause whom Allah will to hear Allah, but you cannot make those who are in their graves hear you”. (Quran 35:18-19)

    Indeed, unfortunately, I observe there are too many differences even contradictory between Quran and Bible. In case to solve a difference (that happen in their follower that come from different religious traditions) ) what scripture Bahai’is will heed? Or, Bahaiullah can guarantee there will no dispute between their follower, let say, for example, in conduct a sermon. For moslem, religion is not only sermon business. Islam is a way of life so all part moslem life must heed to the scriptures: Quran and Hadist. Therefore I don’t think this world need another “religion” which I believe make many other problems.

    Susan says : Maybe the Baha’is are right. What we really need is a new religion, one born in the full light of history (which Islam was not.)

    I believe as I read from many history books that Islam in the past has proved that peoples (whatsoever their races, religion, language etc) could live all together in their differences at same time and at same city without any fear amongst them. Through Madina Treaty, Muhammad give safety blanket to all peoples (not only moslem) that they guarantee won’t be harm from anyone. Also, through Aleeya Treaty, Khalifa Omar, as Muhammad did, give safety blanket to all peoples at that time. This great moslem leader also was forced Jews to pick their own garbage up that their throw to Christianity Church to their own place. If you think Islam was not give this world a full light of history, it’s yours. But, if you have a little time to read many books what Islam donate to this world, perhaps you can take a bright sight of Islam.

    As you say, “What we really need is a new religion, one born in the full light of history …” I agree we really need a perspectively new religion. Islam was born 14 hundreds years ago that I believe need some new perspective. I think other religion which was born ages before must do same thing: Find a new perspective and horizon that fit to nowadays.

    Accordingly technology, this world rapidly changes, that affect human relations and civilization, however, some basic problems of human relations itself never change such as murder and sex desire (like Abel and Cain), lustiness in form of prostitution and homosexuality (like Lot people), alcoholism, gambling, etc. To find a new perspective of religion, we can start from asking a question: what’s role of religion in modern society?

    For us, Moslems, Islam is a guidance therefore despite we heed Quran, we learn hadist too to take many wisdoms from it. I don’t have to deny hadist (a real one). However, I believe what Muhammad was did at 14 hundreds years ago is obsolete in time. Time is changing, technology is changing, human is changing, civilization is changing too. So, as Moslems, I must actualization what Muhammad was did a long year ago to fit nowadays. I don’t think I must ride a camel to go to Mecca from Indonesia. There is a technology called a plane which help human travel around the world.

    I don’t know what you think about threat to your religion or belief. But, somehow, I observe, the real threat for every religion is not come from other religious traditions. I believe all threats that come to every believer (whatsoever their belief) are they who “no fear of god.” Even they claim themselves as religion believer, they that those “no fear of god” making confusing and force other to believe the sacred texts that speak for themselves.

    So, as for me, Susan: “The blind and the seeing are not equal, nor are the darkness and the light”. I see a full bright light in Islam which I don’t in other religion unless you have a prove that contrary of mine.

    And, pardon me Bill that we can’t show a good will and compassion to Baha’is who believe in the one true God and the successive the Messengers. Its simply because they contrary to Islam as stated in Quran and Hadist. But, if someone wanna convey his thought that for all believer is only one god, reject hadist, reject sharia that crystal clear contrary to Islamic thought, I suggest, it will better he go to US Embassy to ask visa permit and get freedom of religious tradition and thought coz in Indonesia there is still exist a law that prohibit citizens to mix all religion in one basket whatsoever their name.

    Or, I guess, firstly they who want to convey Bahai’is in Indonesia go to the Republic of Indonesia Constitution Court to file a case against that such law which in time of transition era, I believe the frame of constitution and the frame of society itself are sustaining a shock, unfortunately this frame of constitution and frame of society occupy all people mind therefore under such condition there is no legitimate rules and there is no acceptable legitimate rules too. This why I believe many religious traditions has led to acts of unspeakable and unbelievable violence. If you think in Europe, America, or other areas there are no violence act cause by religious behavior, you should be watching CNN and Al Jazeera to know what happen in Ireland, in Myanmar, in India, in Sudan, in Phlippine, in hometown America, and in whole part of region in this world.

    I respect what Bahai’is thought, in my opinion, to get some kind of legitimate rules from all religion in this planet. But, I still on feet at the earth which make me realize that those frame of constitution (of whatsoever religious traditions) and frame of society that occupy all people mind merely can make all unbelievable thing happen include killing and destroy each other. And, simply kind of those forms are hate, ill, humiliate, and disgrace others belief. So, I guarantee, stop do those kind of jerk to stop all unbelievable thing happen to you.

  5. avatar Sputjam says:
    December 26th, 2007 at 10:46 am

    If you follow any religion, you will be enslaved by priests, monks and imams. You do not need a religion to believe in God and the hereafter.
    people of many religion believe in the absurd, and commit attrocities based on what they believe in, overiding their common sense.

    Do good and be righteous and humble. And God may guide you to the staright path.

  6. avatar Paul Jackson says:
    December 26th, 2007 at 1:20 pm

    Dear Friends,

    After reading the following comment, I was comelled to share a few thoughts on the board regarding the subject at hand:

    Why is it that muslims get all worried and violent when 31 people (which is really not a lot compared to 180 million muslims) convert to something else than islam.

    In my estimation, the reason that every day people get upset when a small group of people convert from one religion to another is quite simple. The people who are upset have been taught incorrect and prejudiced ideas regarding the Bahai’ Faith. It has been the experience of many researches and world organizations that the average Muslim in many eastern country’s have been misled as to the nature and the purpose of the Bahai’ Revelation. Why is this so? The answer to this is obvious to many. The souls have been misled by the clergy of the Islamic Orthodoxy. Why would they do such a thing?

    One only need look at the illustrious history of Islam to find the answer. When the clergy in Christianity became aware of the claim that was put forth in Islam and in the Koran, they became frightened. They were afraid that their leadership in the arena of spiritual matters was being threatened. The priests were greedy for leadership and power of government. The teachings of Islam were so compelling that the priests of Christianity, being more concerned with their own fate rather than being concerned with following truth in what ever lamp it may shine, did all in their power to retain the reigns of power over the people. The phenomenon of turning away from Gods Messengers by the leaders of the prevailing orthodoxy is an occurance that has visited every Prophet of God beginning with Adam.

    Another point of interest is this: Ask a devout Muslim about the history of the Bahai’ Revalation and in most cases, the pious person will, out of ignorance, parrot forth an imaginary account of Bahai’ History that was invented and propagated by Muslim clergy in order that they may retain the reigns of power in their hands.

    One compelling proof of this is the fact that there were numerous chronicles written about the first 50 to 100 years of the Bahai’ Cause that were completely independant of Bahai’ influence. There were accounts made of the new Faith by western scholars. There were books written by men who belonged to the same noble race that the Bahai’ Faith sprang from, yet they were devout and loving Muslims. Because of the numerous independant accounts of the birth of the Bahai’ Faith, it becomes very difficult for an individual to deny its claims based on obscure and often ignorant reasoning given to them by the clergy if Islam.

    Paul J.

  7. avatar Susan says:
    December 26th, 2007 at 1:37 pm

    There are no historical accounts of Muhammad’s life
    other than those based on hadiths. Otherwise what is the source of
    your ‘historical facts;?

    Susan, we can start with ‘Sirah Rasul Allah’ written by Ibn Ishak

    Dear M. Khafi,

    And what is the Sirat based on if not oral accounts of Muhammad’s life, i.e. hadiths?

    As for the various treaties what are the dates of the oldest extant manuscripts? What evidence do we have for their authenticity?

    As for relying on Christian and Jewish sources? Have you read the book Hagarism? That’s a good example of what we have left when we throw out hadith entirely.

    ma salamat,

  8. avatar Susan says:
    December 26th, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    Ade wrote:

    “in Indonesia Bahai’s claim they same as Islam but have a little differences.”

    I suppose you could say there is little difference between Judaism and Islam in that sense. You complain Baha’is quote hadith and Qur’an. Jews complain that Christians use their scriptures and make them into their own Old Testament.

    “That’s why Indonesians Moslems reject Bahai’is coz Bahai’is, in Indonesian moslem thought, hijack Islam.”

    Jews say the same thing about Christianity. No religion likes to be superceded. But a relgiion which is confident in its truth does not have to persecute those who believe differently. Persecution only shows that ones beliefs are based on fear, not faith.

    A government which interrogates people about their religion and pressures them to change it is not exercising its rights it is exercising oppression. The Qur’an says, “Let there be no compulsion in religion.” It is time Muslims start acting as though they believe this.

    ma salamat, Susan

  9. avatar Paul Jackson says:
    December 26th, 2007 at 3:37 pm

    Dear Friend,

    I would like to comment on your thoughts that you posted about the Bahai’ Faith and where it did or did not recieve its inspiration. You begin your statement as follows:

    Why are Muslims so afraid of Baha’i Faith?

    Because it promotes the equal rights for men and women?
    Because it supports a obligatory education for every children?
    Because it promotes a sense of world unity by stating that the world is but one country and mankind it’s citizens?
    Because it supports the need of a world auxiliary language?
    Because it wants to abolish the extremes of richness and poverty?
    Because it supports the end of all kinds of prejudices?

    Huh? A lot of what you described is what Islam teaches.. oh wait.. Bahai Faith is derived from true Islamic values.

    You go on to say:

    “Because it promotes the equal rights for men and women?”

    In Islam, men and women are equal before God. But there is recognition that there are differences amongst the sexes and both men and women have obligations toward each other.

    Yes, you are correct. I will take issue with you however on the fact that this spiritual principle, while present in the Sacred Text, is not practiced by the majority of adherants to Islam.

    The following comentary supports the above statement;

    Again, enemies of Islam say that Muhammad degraded women; but
    western scholars have known for a long time that the Qur’án grants
    to women rights which no previous religion had given them; to prove
    this, you have only to compare the texts of the various Faiths.
    Furthermore, the Qur’án gives the sexes full spiritual equality:
    “Verily the Muslims of either sex, and the true believers of either
    sex, and the devout men and the devout women, and the men of truth,
    and the women of truth, and the patient men and the patient women,

     27 

    and the humble men and the humble women, and the men who give alms
    and the women who give alms, and the men who fast and the women
    who fast, and the chaste men and the chaste women, and the men and
    the women who oft remember God: for them hath God prepared
    forgiveness and a rich recompense. (33:35).

    So, it is clear that the Sacred Text acknowledges the spiritual equality of the sexes, however, the leaders of Islam have perverted the text and have removed basic rights given to women in the Koran. In some country’s where the state religion is Islam, women are prohibited from driving a car. The state of affairs in such situations is really quite rediculous. The Prophet, Peace be upon Him, educated the tribes and informed them that women could not be bought and traded and that they indeed posessed a human soul. If Muhammud, Peace be upon Him, would bestow on women such bounty, why then would it be praisworthy in the sight of God that she not be allowed to drive a car. Which I might add is quite mundane and does not even require much of the individual who is engaging in such simple behavior. So yes, the teaching of the equality of the sexes is put forth in the Sacred Text, but it is no longer enforced by Muslims in any meaningful way. The Bahai’ Revelation has come to revitalize this teaching and to renew it!

    The equality of men and women is being realized around the globe in over 300 county’s on earth where Bahai’s reside. In these various communities, one can find women learning to read, learning mathmatics, and being taught basic skills one might need if a business were to be established. With such education, women around the world are actually realizing that they are equal to men in the sight of God. They are realizing this truth through education on how to read, how to establish and own their own businesses, etc. Also, the Universal House of Justice has recently embarked on encouraging the Bahai’s the world over to assist those women in the world who are being abused and neglected. Communities are being encouraged by the Universal House of Justice to train up their girls so that when they reach adult hood, they will be able to realize their full potential. In turn, women excell in the spiritual attributes of forebearance, forgiveness, and even patience. Once women take their rightful place next to men in the world, peace will overcome the nations and wars wil cease! I could continue on but now is not the time. In fact, I will come back and post later. I realy need a nap anyway!

    Paul T. Jackson
    You are indeed correct! The Faith of God is not admissable of multiplicity. It is quite correct for you to state that the Bahai’ Faith finds its roots in Islam. In the Bahai’ Scripture it is stated:

    There is one God; mankind is one; the foundations of religion are one. Let us worship Him, and give praise for all His great Prophets and Messengers who have manifested His brightness and glory.

    (Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 20)And before you continue with you argument, let me say that you are indeed correct about this teaching as well, for Islam teaches this very thing!

  10. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    December 26th, 2007 at 3:46 pm

    Susan,

    The point of sirah’s is that they are simply historical records, they are not meant to be used as divine revelation as are hadith, there is only one divine revelation and that is Al Quran, it is the only Scripture promised to be protected by Allah.

    As to the Jewish and Christian sources, obviously they are biased to their own faiths, I am simply suggesting that they are used as references for a chronology, to cross reference, times, dates, and places to the other sources.

    If Allah wished us to use Hadith as a source of divine law, why would he have warned us against it in the following verses:

    In what Hadith, after this, will they believe? 77:50

    Can they not see the Dominion of the heavens and the earth and what Allah has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their own life may be near. What HADITH besides the Qur’an, are they going to believe after him? 7:185

    These are the Messages of Allah We convey to you with Truth. Then, in what HADITH, if not in Allah and His Verses, will they believe? 45:6

    Allah! There is no god but He. He will summon all of you on the Day of Resurrection about the advent of which there is no doubt. Who can tell you a more reliable HADITH than Allah? 4:87

    But among people, there are those who invest their time in HADITH which is unfounded, so as to lead those without knowledge away from the Path of Allah, making mockery of it. For such there is shameful punishment in store. 31:6

    Peace

    Ade Wanto,

    I have refuted every claim that you have made on this thread with clear verses from Al Quran. All that you are left with is quoting the same discredited nonsense, time and time again and using childishly insulting names. I will leave you with these two verses:

    And who is more unjust than he who is reminded of the messages of his Lord, then he turns away from them and forgets what his hands have sent before? Surely We have placed veils over their hearts, lest they understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if thou call them to the guidance, they will even then never follow the right course. 18:57

    Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. 16:125

  11. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    December 26th, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    @ Mas Khafi,

    The point of sirah’s is that they are simply historical records, they are not meant to be used as divine revelation as are hadith, there is only one divine revelation and that is Al Quran, it is the only Scripture promised to be protected by Allah.

    When and where did Allah swt tell you that He promise to protect the quran?

  12. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    December 26th, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    AAB said:

    When and where did Allah swt tell you that He promise to protect the quran?

    Think of those who fail to see the power in this Reminder when it comes to them! For, verily, it is a Tremendous Scripture.
    No falsehood can ever approach it openly or in stealth – a Revelation from all Wise, Owner of Praise.
    41:41-42

    This is an honorable Quran.
    In a protected book.
    None can grasp it except the sincere.
    A revelation from the Lord of the universe.
    Are you disregarding this narration?
    56:77-81

  13. avatar Susan says:
    December 27th, 2007 at 11:51 am

    M Khafi writes:

    “The point of sirah’s is that they are simply historical records, they are not meant to be used as divine revelation as are hadith, there is only one divine revelation and that is Al Quran”

    There is no argument there. But it is also without a doubt the case that the Qur’an cannot be understood apart from context, and hadith provides this context. All these other historical sources which you mention are likewise based on hadith accounts, so far as I know. But as for the verses which you quote which you apparently see as condemning the hadith accounts, I think you are misunderstanding those passages. Hadith in that context should be understood literally as meaning ‘news account.’

    I think hadiths are important to Muslims not simply because they provide the context for understanding the Qur’an but also because they recognize that ultimately the Message cannot be separated from the Messenger. We can be confident of the divine origin of the Qur’an only to the extent in which are confident in Muhammad’s integrity. Our confidence in his integrity is safeguarded by the purity of his heart (fu’ad.) If indeed the Prophet is pure and safeguarded from sin (ismat) then he also provides the ultimate example for how we should live our lives. Hence the accounts of his life become crucial for Muslims seeking to do this. And they find these accounts in the ahadith.

    Still, there are a number of problems with placing so much emphasis on hadiths. In the first place, too many hadiths have been fabricated and studying isnad is no safeguard against such fabrications. Anyone who fabricates a hadith would fabricate a stong chain of transmission as well. That why I suggest we need a new science of hadith. Second, Prophets should be moral exemplars, but that doesn’t mean we have to clean our teeth the same way they did. We should distinguish between cultural customs which Muhammad might have followed and his ethical standards. Too view of the ‘ulama have done this. In my eyes the biggest problem with placing too much emphasis on hadiht is the amount of power it has given to the ‘ulama. Taqlid, blind imitation has been the bane of all religions and that’s what we have when we give the ‘ulama this kind of power.

    Susan

  14. avatar Susan says:
    December 27th, 2007 at 12:41 pm

    Paul Jackson writes;

    “In Islam, men and women are equal before God. But there is recognition that there are differences amongst the sexes and both men and women have obligations toward each other.”

    Equality before God has nothing to do with equal rights. Baha’is believe in equal rights.

    Of course, the roots of the Baha’i Faith are in Islam just as the roots of Christianity are in Judaism.

    But the issue here is not which religion is better, the issue here is whether so-called Muslim countries will protect the basic human rights of Baha’is. It they will not do so they prove their religion to be faulty.

  15. avatar Janma says:
    December 27th, 2007 at 1:07 pm

    islam has it’s roots in judaisim and christianity too…. is that not ‘hijacking’?

  16. avatar Cukurungan says:
    December 27th, 2007 at 2:02 pm

    Susan said:

    But the issue here is not which religion is better, the issue here is whether so-called Muslim countries will protect the basic human rights of Baha’is. It they will not do so they prove their religion to be faulty.

    me:

    In Indonesia, don’t talk too high about the human rights thing because it is not relevant yet to discuss it whilst 40% of its people still have no enough food on the table and 40% of us jobless.

    Janma said:

    islam has it’s roots in judaisim and christianity too”¦. is that not ‘hijacking’?

    me :

    For the Positive thinkers,they called it continuation and purification whereas the negative thinkers would call it hijacking

  17. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    December 27th, 2007 at 3:40 pm

    Janma said:

    islam has it’s roots in judaisim and christianity too”¦. is that not ‘hijacking’?

    Janma, Islam simply means ‘submission’ this submission is not just the faith of the followers of Al Quran, Al Quran say that it is a confirmation of what came before it, not a replacement. Just as Jesus is reputed to have said:

    “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matthew 5:7

    So also has Al Quran been sent to return people to the ‘Straight Path’:
    The apostle believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His apostles; We make no difference between any of His apostles; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course. 2:285

    Susan said:

    But as for the verses which you quote which you apparently see as condemning the hadith accounts, I think you are misunderstanding those passages. Hadith in that context should be understood literally as meaning ‘news account.’

    The word used in the arabic text is simply ‘Hadith’, When hadith have been used to create all the differing sects in Islam, when they have been used to denigrate the character of The Prophet, when they are used to sudjugate the ordinary people and especially women, then to my mind they should be rejected

    Susan said:

    I think hadiths are important to Muslims not simply because they provide the context for understanding the Qur’an but also because they recognize that ultimately the Message cannot be separated from the Messenger. We can be confident of the divine origin of the Qur’an only to the extent in which are confident in Muhammad’s integrity. Our confidence in his integrity is safeguarded by the purity of his heart (fu’ad.) If indeed the Prophet is pure and safeguarded from sin (ismat) then he also provides the ultimate example for how we should live our lives. Hence the accounts of his life become crucial for Muslims seeking to do this. And they find these accounts in the ahadith.

    I would not doubt the integrity of The Prophet, but even he was not immune from making mistakes as is illustrated in the following verse where he is instructed by Allah:

    Say: “If I am astray, I only stray to the loss of my own soul: but if I receive guidance, it is because of the inspiration of my Lord to me: it is He Who hears all things, and is (ever) near.” 34:50

    or

    He frowned and turned away. Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?- 80:1-3

    or

    “Then have patience (O Muhammad). Lo! the promise of Allah is true. And ask forgiveness of thy sin, and hymn the praise of thy Lord at fall of night and in the early hours.”
    40:55

    The Prophet, just like all the prophets before him, was when all is said and done a human being with human weaknesses and faults. The message he conveyed however has Allah’s assurance of it’s purity.

    The issue here is not one of The Prophets integrity, but rather the integrity of the collectors of Hadith. They were catagorically told by The Prophet not to collect hadith and to write nothing of the Prophet other than Al Quran, the vast majority of Hadith were not even compiled until three centuries after The Prophets death!

    This pattern has repeated itself through history, Allah gives a divine message and then humans corrupt it to suit themselves, it happen with Torah, Injeel and now with Al Quran.

    I admire you viewpoint on Hadith and the power of the ‘ulama, but in my opinion you have not gone far enough, release yourself from your upbringing and reread Al Quran, if done with an open mind and a pure heart, it really is a revelation. Complete, perfect and fully detailed, as Allah confirms within. It is a great release to discard all of the traditions and concentrate on the essence of The Book. Belief in God, Belief in The Day of Judgement, and The Doing of Good Deeds.

    Peace

  18. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    December 27th, 2007 at 4:29 pm

    Cuk said:

    For the Positive thinkers,they called it continuation and purification whereas the negative thinkers would call it hijacking

    Can we assume Cuk, that as you are such a positive thinker, you see Baha’i as ‘continuation and purification’?

  19. avatar D L Herrmann says:
    December 27th, 2007 at 8:22 pm

    It is odd to me that so many Muslims do not seem to have read the statement in the Quran: “Let there be no compulsion in religion.”
    They are doing the opposite.
    Are they truly Muslim?

  20. avatar Susan says:
    December 27th, 2007 at 10:21 pm

    Cukurungan writes:

    “In Indonesia, don’t talk too high about the human rights thing because it is not relevant yet to discuss it whilst 40% of its people still have no enough food on the table and 40% of us jobless.”

    Where human rights are ignored people do not invest money to create jobs and people remain poor.

    “Janma said:

    islam has it’s roots in judaisim and christianity too”¦. is that not ‘hijacking’?

    me :

    For the Positive thinkers,they called it continuation and purification whereas the negative thinkers would call it hijacking”

    And Baha’is call it progressive revelation, so what is the difference, other than progress?

    warmest, Susan

  21. avatar Susan says:
    December 27th, 2007 at 10:52 pm

    Khafi writes:


    islam has it’s roots in judaisim and christianity too”¦. is that not ‘hijacking’?

    Janma, Islam simply means ‘submission’ this submission is not just the faith of the followers of Al Quran, Al Quran say that it is a confirmation of what came before it, not a replacement. Just as Jesus is reputed to have said:

    “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matthew 5:7″

    Dear Khafi,

    And if we are talking about Islam in the sense of the eternal religion of God then Baha’is are Muslims as well. But to call themselves that only creates confusion since Muslims in practice do not regard Jews or Christians as Muslims. As for Jesus fulfilling and not destroying the law, certainly he did that in some sense. But much of Jewish law became null and void for Christians. There are two types of religious law. There are the spiritual laws which are eternal and the social laws which change. Jesus did not prohibit alcohol, Muhammad did. Jesus prohibited divorce, Muhammad did not. Baha’is insist on equal rights for women, Muslims do not.

    “The word used in the arabic text is simply ‘Hadith’, ”

    Do you know Arabic? Because if you did you would know the word hadith simply means ‘news acount.’ You should not be capitalizing the word, as such a convention does not exist in Arabic. My point is that the Qur’an is simply speaking of ‘accounts’ of other prophets, etc. It is anachronistic to apply those verses to the body of hadith literature which did not then exist.

    “When hadith have been used to create all the differing sects in Islam, when they have been used to denigrate the character of The Prophet, when they are used to sudjugate the ordinary people and especially women, then to my mind they should be rejected”

    I agree with you that hadiths have been overly-used in Islam so much so that they sometimes seem to eclipse the Qur’an. But as I’ve been suggesting to simply chuck them all would leave little left by which to understand the Qur’an. There are things in the Qur’an which are used to subjugate women as well such as the verse which says mean are raised above women or that husbands can beat their wives. If these things are no longer applicable to the needs of this age then perhaps we need to consider whether God has not sent us a new revelation like that contained in the Baha’i Faith.

    You wrote:

    “They were catagorically told by The Prophet not to collect hadith”

    Where did the Prophet say this? Is it from the hadith? ;-}

    “I admire you viewpoint on Hadith and the power of the ‘ulama, but in my opinion you have not gone far enough, release yourself from your upbringing and reread Al Quran,”

    LOL. My upbringing was that of a Christian. Islam is something I teach as a university professor. The religion I profess is Baha’i. We don’t have hadiths. We have some oral accounts we call ‘pilgrim’s notes’ but these have no authority in either faith or practice. That doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate the need for them in Islam.

    warmest, Susan

  22. avatar Susan says:
    December 27th, 2007 at 11:08 pm

    Dear Khafi,

    To the extent that Islam refers to the eternal religion of God and not simply the revelation given to Muhammad, then Baha’is are Muslim too. But since Muslims don’t refer to Jews and Christians (who are part of this same eternal religion) it would only create confusion to call them that.

    As for your qoute from the Gospels that Jesus came to fulfill the law, it must be acknowledged at the same time that much of the law became null and void with his revelation. There are two types of law in religion, the first are the spiritual laws which do not change. Then there are the social laws which do change. For instance, Jesus did not prohibit alcohol, but Muhammad did. Jesus prohibited divorce, the Qur’an does not. Baha’is insist on equal rights for women, Muslims do not.

    “You wrote that the Arabic text of the Qur’an simply reads Hadith. If you know Arabic you know there is no such thing as upper-case or lower-case letters in that language, so you should not capitalize this word. Furthermore, the word hadith means ‘news account.’ It would be anachronistic to apply these verses to a body of literature which did not then exist. I would like to see the verse where the Prophet tells people not collect hadith. Or is that from the hadith? :-)

    You wrote:

    “I admire you viewpoint on Hadith and the power of the ‘ulama, but in my opinion you have not gone far enough, release yourself from your upbringing and reread Al Quran,”

    Thanks, but my upbrinigng was Christian. I first read the Qur’an when I was a teenager after some Baha’is persuaded me to read it.

    warmest, Susan

  23. avatar Susan says:
    December 27th, 2007 at 11:09 pm

    Whoops, sorry for all the repeat messages. I thought I had lost them whereas in fact, they had already been sent off.

  24. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    December 28th, 2007 at 1:47 am

    Susan,

    You wrote:

    To the extent that Islam refers to the eternal religion of God and not simply the revelation given to Muhammad, then Baha’is are Muslim too. But since Muslims don’t refer to Jews and Christians (who are part of this same eternal religion) it would only create confusion to call them that.

    I agree with you completely Susan, There is only one eternal system ( I say system because Sputjam doesn’t like the word religion!), as a follower of Al Quran I call it Islam and myself a Muslim, however as you have no doubt become aware I am hardly mainstream, I am able to find the goodness contained in Al Quran. Muslims who are truely following Al Quran and know Jews and Christians who believe in the one God, do good deeds and believe in the day of Judgement should call them Muslims, as they should for their Baha’i brothers and sisters. Unfortunately there are so many negative connotations attached to the words Islam and Muslim due to the hijacking of the religion by extremists and the lack of condemnation by the moderates that the words are considered sullied and dirty.

    You also wrote:

    As for your qoute from the Gospels that Jesus came to fulfill the law, it must be acknowledged at the same time that much of the law became null and void with his revelation. There are two types of law in religion, the first are the spiritual laws which do not change. Then there are the social laws which do change. For instance, Jesus did not prohibit alcohol, but Muhammad did. Jesus prohibited divorce, the Qur’an does not. Baha’is insist on equal rights for women, Muslims do not.

    To say simply that the Old Law became null and void is overlooking the fact that most of this is from the Gospels. You must be aware that even the Synoptic Gospels and John, have numerous discrepancies and differences. The Gospels are not what Jesus brought, he brought Injeel a verbal message, He was after all know as ‘The Word’ was he not? The Gospels have to be treated the same as Hadith, they are after all no more that recollections of Jesus’ life storycompiled from heresay many years after Jesus lived. I think we can I think figure out what Jesus’ message was, but we cannot take The Gospels literally word for word.

    Neither Allah nor Mohammed prohibited alcohol, they prohibited drunkenness, The prohibition of alcohol is from those accursed Hadith! As to Jesus prohibiting divorce, was this in his message or was this manipulation of his message by the church authorities? Muslims may not insist on equal rights for Women but I believe if interpreted corretly Al Quran does.

    You also wrote

    :”You wrote that the Arabic text of the Qur’an simply reads Hadith. If you know Arabic you know there is no such thing as upper-case or lower-case letters in that language, so you should not capitalize this word. Furthermore, the word hadith means ‘news account.’ It would be anachronistic to apply these verses to a body of literature which did not then exist. I would like to see the verse where the Prophet tells people not collect hadith. Or is that from the hadith?

    The verses:

    In what hadith, after this, will they believe? 77:50

    Can they not see the Dominion of the heavens and the earth and what Allah has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their own life may be near. What hadith besides the Qur’an, are they going to believe after him? 7:185

    Are both looking forward in time, in to the future when men will fabricate stories to mislead humans away from Gods teachings.

    Of course the story of The Prophet prohibiting the collection of Hadith is not from Hadith, its from Sirah. ;-)

    Teaching Islam at University heh? I can see now why you are so defensive of the Hadith, just like the Ulama’, if Hadith were taken away you would be out of a job! ;-)

    Islam and Al Quran are very simple when the Hadith fabrications are removed. Allah says:

    And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition? 54:17

    Peace

  25. avatar Stefan says:
    December 28th, 2007 at 3:21 am

    Ade Wanto wrote:

    Yes, of course, even you say adultery is a sin, then after you commit it you can easily go to your priests and make an confession. Thus, your sin, WHATSOEVER your sin are, with your priest magic spell, abrakadabra, all your sin wipe out. That’s the causa prima why in many countries and communities which Christians dominate in numbers all kind of free sex (even, as you say, adultery is a sin) soars.

    It’s not that easy. If you go to a priest to confess you won’t get rid of your sins unconditionally. The problem of adultery is that it destroys families. You must work actively to repair the damage caused by the act of cheating your spouse. Axtive repentance for forgiveness that’s the deal.

    In Islamic way of life, adulteries is really sin then adulterers must be punished. For what? To make sure those are adulterer don’t make it again.

    Yes, it you stone them to death they really can’t do it again. But what are the side effect? There may be a widow with children who loses her husband and his income. Now she will have to struggle to survive. The act of adultery itself may result in a pregnancy. In this case an orphan child will be left. Who is responsible to bring this child up, to pay for his/her food and edudation according to sharia law? Western law deals with all thise problems but it’s a matter of civil law, not penal law.

    Is it true adulteries are illegal in Christians countries? In Mass, USA, they already have a law to allow homosexual marriage. Is it in USA a Christians (dominate by numbers) country or where? And, in all countries in Europe, homosexual and prostitutions are legal. In many states of USA also have a law that allow prostitutions.

    If prostitution is legal it’s easier for the government to monitor health condition of prostitutes. There are a lot of countries where prostitution is illegal but I have never heard of a country where prostitution doesn’t exist. (Maybe the Vatican but this isn’t an islamic country) ;) There is only the alternative to have legal or illegal prostitution. If prostitution is illegal then it’s easier for those who commit trafficking of women or pimp business. If it is legal it’s easier for the authorities to fight these crimes if prostitution itself is legal.

    The second biggest religion in western countries is atheism. There is no reason to punish homosexual atheists. And I don’t understand what is the problem of homosexuality. How does it accect my family is there is a homosexual couple living next door?

    Btw, for us, in Indonesia, which Muslim dominate by numbers, we will produce a law that allow a man commit to polygamy, but surely we reject adulteries and surely will be punish it. However, what is Christians stand for adulteries, it is their rule.

    Are you dreaming? The MUI has outlawed polygamy and the constiututional court has upheld the ban. If there is a bill to legalize polygamy it would have been a topic here on IM. Polygamy was the soultion after the Battle of Uhud which was lost by Mohammed. But can it solve problems in modern Indonesian society?

  26. avatar Susan says:
    December 28th, 2007 at 6:40 am

    Khafi wrote:

    “To say simply that the Old Law became null and void is overlooking the fact that most of this is from the Gospels. You must be aware that even the Synoptic Gospels and John, have numerous discrepancies and differences. The Gospels are not what Jesus brought, he brought Injeel a verbal message, He was after all know as ‘The Word’ was he not? The Gospels have to be treated the same as Hadith, they are after all no more that recollections of Jesus’ life storycompiled from heresay many years after Jesus lived. I think we can I think figure out what Jesus’ message was, but we cannot take The Gospels literally word for word.”

    Dear Khafi,

    I would agree with you that the Gospels should be compared to hadith, in that it consists of accounts of Jesus’ words and life. That is one of the reasons I’m not prepared to discard the hadith entirely. Without the Gospels we would not even know Jesus ever existed. I know Muslims imagine that the Torah and the Gospels have been corrupted, but surely this refers to what their clerics have done to their religion, not that Jesus’ message was corrupted. Would God have left people without guidance for six hundred years if this were the case? Can anyone hold Jews or Christians responsible for having failed to recognize the Prophethood of Muhammad if God allowed them to be deprived of guidance for so long? As for taking the Gospels literally, I’m not sure any scripture should be taken literally except in matters of law.

    “Neither Allah nor Mohammed prohibited alcohol, they prohibited drunkenness, The prohibition of alcohol is from those accursed Hadith!”

    My recollection is that the Qur’an very gradually prohibits wine, first saying the negatives exceed the positives, then saying don’t come to prayer drunk, finally prohibiting it use entirely. If this was only solidified int he Qur’an my position is “God bless the hadith!” Drunks are the last ones to know when they are drunk. More Americans have died due to drunk driving in our country than in all the wars we have fought combined!

    “Muslims may not insist on equal rights for Women but I believe if interpreted corretly Al Quran does”

    It is the Qur’an, not the hadith which is used as justified wife-beating. Indeed, I have seen hadiths used to mitigate what is in the Qur’an in this regard.

    To my question regarding where the Prophet prohibits people from collecting hadiths, you cite the following passage from the Qur’an:

    “Can they not see the Dominion of the heavens and the earth and what Allah has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their own life may be near. What hadith besides the Qur’an, are they going to believe after him? 7:185

    Are both looking forward in time, in to the future when men will fabricate stories to mislead humans away from Gods teachings.”

    I don’t see this passage as saying anything at all about collecting hadiths or even fabricating stories. What I see that passage saying is that if you don’t accept the Qur’an they are unlikely to accept any revelation that comes afterwards either. As I indicated, hadith here simply means ‘account.’

    “Of course the story of The Prophet prohibiting the collection of Hadith is not from Hadith, its from Sirah. ;-)”

    Which is entirely based on hadith. :-)

    “Teaching Islam at University heh? I can see now why you are so defensive of the Hadith, just like the Ulama’, if Hadith were taken away you would be out of a job! ;-)”

    Not quite, because I study Islam and Muslims as they are, not as I imagine they should be. But I could say nothing whatsoever about the life of Muhammad or the context in which we should understand the Qur’an because I would have no information regarding this. It may have been easy for Arabs to understand in Muhammad’s time but not for those of us in the rest of the world fourteen hundred years later.

    ma salamat,

    Susan

  27. avatar Cukurungan says:
    December 28th, 2007 at 9:02 am

    Susan said:
    Where human rights are ignored people do not invest money to create jobs and people remain poor.

    me:

    However the real facts in Asia told otherwise countries such as China, Malaysia and Singapore where human right are neglected they could attract a big investment and create the job because after the government of those countries succeeded to silence the bunch noisy of human right activist they were able to ensure the political stability within their respective countries and the investor would prefer the political stability rather than the human right record.

    You said:
    And Baha’is call it progressive revelation, so what is the difference, other than progress?

    Me:

    That is not progression but diversion because the true religious would call their follower to obey as much as they can to the GOD orders in which mostly written in certain a holy book and can be accessed by anyone. While the fake religion would call to their followers to obey only to its founder, descendants and its franchisers therefore it is no secret that descendant and franchiser of the fake religion such as Achmadi, LDDI and Bahai have lavish lifestyle upon the tax service paid by its follower for the exchange of the sin abolishment and fee guarantee for securing home in heaven.

  28. avatar Paul Jackson says:
    December 28th, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    Hello,

    I wanted to comment on the assumption made by Tuan in referance to education. While it certainly is true that the Koran teaches that education is indispensable to society, the directives in the Koran are very general in nature, unlike the directives found in the Bahai’ revelation. It would be good to view some of the actual teachings in Bahai’ scripture on this subject so that we may acquire a greater understanding of the Bahai’ perspective on this subject.

    Abdu’l-Bahá laid great stress on Education. He said “The girl’s education is of more importance today than the boy’s, for she is the mother of the future race. It is the duty of all to look after the children. Those without children should, if possible, make themselves responsible for the education of a child.”

    (Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 90)

    The emphasis laid on the education of girls in this quotation is one in a myriad examples in the Bahai’ sacred writings of the uniqueness of the revelation itself. While Islam has a rich history of advocating education as a pre-requisite to divine civilization, it is interesting to note that the Koran itself lacks specific instructions as to how the subject of education should be approached. Islamic apologists however, have taken up the cause of education and it is through their writings and treatese that we can find specific instructions on the subject. Why is this of any importance to the student of religion? To answer this question we must look at Islam itself and the teachings regarding education in the sacred writ of the Koran. Regardless of what particular school of Islam one adheres to, most if not all Islamist will agree that the final balance of all matters is to be judged by the Koran itself. The teachings in this book take precidence over all other teachngs. Tradition, the hadith, and the writings of the most learned of Islam all bow down before the authority of the Holy Koran. In light of this fundamental truth of Islam, it is all too evident that there is a lack of moral authority on the subject of the education of women. Again, this is not to say that there are no teachings on this subject in Islam, but rather there are no divinely revealed scriptures in the Koran that deal specifically with the subject. In short, a devout Muslim will always view the teachings in the Koran as the unerring word of God, while he/she may not always look at the teachings of an Islamic apologist in the same esteem. The Bahai’ revelation on the other hand, claims that its teachings on the education of women are not only a good idea, but they are also divinely revealed teachings. To a Bahai’, the law of God dictates that woman should be given priority in matters of education so that the inequity between men and women in matters of education should be erradicated. It is the law of God in the eyes of a Bahai’. It is not a matter of interpretation, or the oppinion of Bahai’ appologists, but rather the dictates of divinely revealed scripture. The Bahai’ revelation therefor, speaks with absolute moral authority on this issue.

    It is important to note that the lack of attention paid to education of women in the Koran in no way erases the fact the Koran is a direct revelation from God. The revelation itself simply does not address this issue the way the Bahai’ scripture does because during the time that the Koran was revealed, such issues of universal education were not as important as was granting women basic human rights such as recognition that they posses souls, should have the right to own property, and to engage in leadership roles in the community. It simply would have been impossible to apply the teachngs in the Bahai’ revelation at the time that the Holy Koran was bestowed to the world.

    Sincerely

    Paul T. Jackson

  29. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    December 28th, 2007 at 8:01 pm

    Susan,

    You said:

    I know Muslims imagine that the Torah and the Gospels have been corrupted, but surely this refers to what their clerics have done to their religion, not that Jesus’ message was corrupted.

    I feel certain that none of the messengers delivered corrupted messages, as you say the problems arise with the clerics and their manipulations of the messages and their fabrication of additional laws, there is also the problem of the additional writings which are intended by the clerics to glorify the prophets, in the case of Jesus, raising him to be part of the Godhead itself. Whilst Mohammed has not been raised to such a status, he is glorified by mainstream muslims to the point where they cannot even recite Shahada, without mentioning his name. Shahada, and all praise should be for God alone.

    Whilst I admire the Baha’i faith I cannot help but to wonder if the followers of Bahá’u'lláh are not falling into the same trap, is there not some glorification taking place which in all respect is due to God, Bahá’u'lláh is described on the Baha’i website as ‘The Supreme Manifestation of God’, Al Quran tells us to treat all of the Prophets equally and not elevate others higher than the rest.

    You said:

    I don’t see this passage as saying anything at all about collecting hadiths or even fabricating stories. What I see that passage saying is that if you don’t accept the Qur’an they are unlikely to accept any revelation that comes afterwards either. As I indicated, hadith here simply means ‘account.’

    Even if you don’t see this as a prohibition against the collection of Hadith, Al Quran, says that there should be no other source of law or judgement other than Al Quran:

    Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? – when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.” They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. 6:114

    This verse coupled with the verses proclaiming that Al Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, for me do not allow the use of Hadith as a source of either religious law, or religious behaviour.

    You said:

    More Americans have died due to drunk driving in our country than in all the wars we have fought combined!

    More Americans have been killed in Motor Vehicle acidents, than any other cause in America, that does not justify banning Motor vehicles, there are positives and negatives as with many other things, alcohol being one of them. The medicinal benefits attributed to moderate consumption of Alcohol are well documented, including reductions in blood pressure, stress and heart disease. This is why Al Quran forbids drunkeness, rather than banning alcohol. The problems of drunk driving are more to do with the people than the alcohol.

    You said:

    It is the Qur’an, not the hadith which is used as justified wife-beating. Indeed, I have seen hadiths used to mitigate what is in the Qur’an in this regard.

    You obviously are referring to verse 4:34 which in some translations reads:

    Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

    However the word translated as beat in this case has a number of meanings, some of which are “ignore/disregard/push” maybe if the translator had been less influenced by hadith the more correct meaning of the verse would be:

    The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women who are attentive, and keep private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear a desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great.

    Again I haven’t needed Hadith to reach a much more reasonable translation or interpretation of the verse.

    So you see it is possible to find the goodness in Al Quran, and there are many people who practice it, I sincerely hope you meet more of them. Perhaps you could encourage this process in some way in your teachings? Unless of course you are hesitant to teach that there is an alternative to present day mainstrean Islam, because it may mean fewer converts to Baha’i? ;-)

    Ultimately My Islam is not so very different from Your Baha’i, isn’t that what we are both of us striving to achieve, a peaceful, tolerant, caring and loving, universal deen?

    Peace

  30. avatar Susan says:
    December 29th, 2007 at 12:22 am

    Khafi writes:

    “Whilst I admire the Baha’i faith I cannot help but to wonder if the followers of Bahá’u'lláh are not falling into the same trap, is there not some glorification taking place which in all respect is due to God, Bahá’u'lláh is described on the Baha’i website as ‘The Supreme Manifestation of God’, Al Quran tells us to treat all of the Prophets equally and not elevate others higher than the rest.”

    Dear Khafi,

    You raise a good point. Actually there are two verses from the Qur’an which understood superficially seem to contradict one another. One says in regards to the Prophets: “We make no difference between them” while another one says, “We have caused some of the Prophets to excell the others.” It seems to me that in the first instance the Qur’an is speaking of the fact that all the Prophets share the same station, while in the second instance it is speaking of the fact that some of the Prophets have had a greater impact in the world. Baha’u'llah is conceived of as the “Supreme” Manifestation inasmuch as he is the one foretold in all religions who will bring about world unity. But in his own person he is no different than Muhammad. Does that make sense?

    As for the medicinal uses of alcohol, I presume that Islam is the same as the Baha’i Faith on this matter, that alcohol may be used in those instances where it is prescribed by a medical doctor to treat a specific condition. Am I wrong about this? As for it being used to treat things like heart disease, research has shown it is the grapes in wine, not the alcohol which has this effect. So you can get the same benefit from grape juice.

    “Ultimately My Islam is not so very different from Your Baha’i, isn’t that what we are both of us striving to achieve, a peaceful, tolerant, caring and loving, universal deen?”

    Indeed we are. At the same time we must be careful not to read into scripture whatever it is we would like to see. All too often a “Qur’an” alone approach, like Luther”s “sola biblia” and the Zoroastrian “Gatha alone” or even the Arya Samaj “Veda alone” approach has done just that. Muslims tried to guard the integrity of the Shariah by hadith criticism but this was only marginally successful. Christianiity tried to do so with the notion of Apostolic Succession but priests ended up too powerful and the Papacy became corrupted. Baha’u'llah, on the other hand, appointed authorized interpreters after him, namely Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. After his line ran out he ordained that elected legislature, Universal House of Justice was to be in charge and would determine all secondary laws. We therefore can maintain the integrity of our scriptures, our laws and practices without the need for any special clerical class.

    ma salamat,

    Susan

Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 13 14 »



Your view on “Bahai” :


RSS
RSS feed
Email

Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-14
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact