Bahai

Nov 1st, 2007, in IM Posts, by

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396 Comments on “Bahai”

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  1. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    November 10th, 2007 at 5:05 pm

    Mohammad Khafi said

    I would think that all of these people have been touched by the Goodness of God, it matters not what religion they profess, it is what they think and how they act that really counts.

    I agree with the last part of the sentence but I fail to see what god or religion has got to do with it. Even hardcore atheists will admit that how people act is what really counts. Please do not let goodness and kindness be hijacked by religion… Any religion .

  2. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    November 10th, 2007 at 8:30 pm

    dewaratugedeanom,

    I was not trying to hijack goodness and kindness for any religion, the saying is just a “figure of speech”.

    I think that all of us, believers or not, have the capacity for good and evil, I do not think it is directly influenced by God, it is likely a product of our upbringing.

    It is all too clear that many people who profess themselves to be religious are in fact far from being good people, either through ignorance, selfishness, or greed, their more base instincts come through. This is transmitted to their children, to their students or to their followers. This is apparent in the reaction of some of the Mainstream Muslim Leaders, to the Bahai, who being supporters of tolerance, peace, education are perceived as a threat.

    Tuan,

    Why is the word of man, Sunnah and Hadith, given such a prominent place in Mainstream Islam, when compared to the Word of God, Al Quran?

    Just a rhetorical question!

    Peace

  3. avatar Pakmantri says:
    November 11th, 2007 at 3:34 pm

    Sylvester said:

    Conclusion: Bahai is better than Islam ……………..

    Cukurungan said:

    But Islam better than Christian ………….

    Did not say anything about Islam and Bahai ………..

    Mochhamad Kafi said:

    Conclusion: Sylvester is better than Cukurungan ………….

    And I’ll add that Cukurungan agreed with Sylvester’s conclusion; since he did not object, therefore, he agreed ………………. :D

    This is fun ……………….. I can’t wait lol.

  4. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 12th, 2007 at 2:31 am

    What is wrong if a person don’t like baso ikan, he can change to baso udang. And yet many cannot live with that…pathetic.

  5. avatar Cukurungan says:
    November 12th, 2007 at 8:19 am

    And I’ll add that Cukurungan agreed with Sylvester’s conclusion; since he did not object, therefore, he agreed

    And I also will add that Sylvester’s agreed with Cukurungan conclusion, since he did not object, therefore, he agreed

  6. avatar Janma says:
    November 12th, 2007 at 9:42 am

    Muhammad says it’s alright to rape the women who ‘your right hand possesses’ too…. that’s rape and slavery…. the things that were quoted from the bible are from the old testament, not the bible really but the torah. We all know rape is wrong and no religion promotes it.

  7. avatar Pakmantri says:
    November 12th, 2007 at 12:29 pm

    Sorry, Sylvester made the statement before Cukurungan, therefore, …………..!! :D

  8. avatar Cukurungan says:
    November 12th, 2007 at 12:59 pm

    Cuk,

    You have to make your own choices. Believing in the Word of God or believing in the Word of Men. It seems that those who believe in the Word of God are seeking peace, tolerance and understanding, whilst those who are following the Word of Men are more prone to violence, intolerance and are less understanding. It doesn’t take a great intellect to figure out those on the right path does it? It is the followers of Hadith and Sunnah, who have segregated and isolated themselves, the followers of the Word of God have not.

    My friend you are the one who is truely in a basket, one of your own making, whilst those of use who truely believe in the Goodness of our Lord are living freely in his Wonderous Creation, free to think, to learn, to make friends, to enjoy our lives, and most of all free to worship Him in a manner of our own chosing based on what we understand from His teachings.

    Peace

  9. avatar Cukurungan says:
    November 12th, 2007 at 3:04 pm

    Patung sorry please delete the above post

    Cuk,

    You have to make your own choices. Believing in the Word of God or believing in the Word of Men. It seems that those who believe in the Word of God are seeking peace, tolerance and understanding, whilst those who are following the Word of Men are more prone to violence, intolerance and are less understanding. It doesn’t take a great intellect to figure out those on the right path does it? It is the followers of Hadith and Sunnah, who have segregated and isolated themselves, the followers of the Word of God have not.

    My friend you are the one who is truely in a basket, one of your own making, whilst those of use who truely believe in the Goodness of our Lord are living freely in his Wonderous Creation, free to think, to learn, to make friends, to enjoy our lives, and most of all free to worship Him in a manner of our own chosing based on what we understand from His teachings.

    Peace

    C’mon on friend even “Perempuan Hamil 11 bulan” can easily understand that “Suicide Bombers is wrong, Corruption is not allowed by God, peace and tolerance are good but the real issue is how you can convey your message to rest of billion Muslim people and make them understand what is the actual “GOD WORD” and the way to implement it in their real life.
    To condemn the terrorist action and the religion hijacker do not need “Great Khafi” but we need “Great Khafi” to come down from “His GOLDEN Tower” to take real fight against the God Words Hijackers but if you do not dare to do so I wonder that your self is the real GOD Word hijacker.
    Btw, we are looking forward the real hero to take challenge against MUI, ALAZHAR Cleric , SAUDI Cleric and SYIAH Cleric on the debate public and let public know who is the real God Word followers.

  10. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    November 12th, 2007 at 7:52 pm

    Tuan said

    Then why is the word of man (falsified information) in a book that is considered the word of God?
    You don’t have to answer them as they are rhetorical questions.

    It seems to me that this comment is biased. It is not my intention to defend the bible, but what has ‘the word of God’ to do with a narrative in a book that is also an account of the history of a people?

  11. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    November 12th, 2007 at 11:30 pm

    Cukurungan said:

    but we need “Great Khafi” to come down from “His GOLDEN Tower” to take real fight against the God Words Hijackers

    Cuk,

    I prefer to remain the “Great Khafi” rather than become the “Late, Great Khafi” Whilst I continue my battle anonymously, my wife and children are safe. If I were to expose my identity and take my battle out into the real world, I would likely end up exposing them and myself to the violence of the misguided.

    You should take the time to read Sun Tzu’s “Art of War” He states “be prepared and stay low profile, if your opponent is strong and secure” he also states “the true master gets what he wants without waging war of any sort simply through subterfuge and pressure”

    Peace

  12. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 13th, 2007 at 2:57 am

    If Bahai is the true Islam according to Idam H, so what about Islam?

    No wonder the Islam are afraid of a sudden surge into such belief.

    those who are following the Word of Men are more prone to violence, intolerance and are less understanding

    So is that referring to the pro Islam left or right, Islamic radicals and fanatical clerics and uelamas?

    And so that some you guys understand someone saya English is adjective and Muslims is a noun. (noun = ?????)

  13. avatar Cukurungan says:
    November 13th, 2007 at 8:09 am

    Khafi,

    Do not you realize that we are the main stream has been utilizing the Sun Tzu “Art of War” while without waging a big war we has been able to keep pressure to other heretical faith include Al Qiyadah, Ingkarus Sunnah and the Islam basher “Faith Freedom Org”, etc to become only “Death Faith” and they can do nothing in this real world except crying in internet.

    Check in history, the real “God Word” fighter like “Abraham, Noah, Muhammad, Isa and Musa took fight in the real world at whatever cost while the God Word Hijacker was only buzz behind the curtain.

    Regard,
    Provokator No.1

  14. avatar Janma says:
    November 13th, 2007 at 2:04 pm

    Like I’ve said before, I’m not into worshipping a God… any God. I’m a people worshiper, i think people should worship people…………

    I ah went out looking for God the other day….. and …. i couldn’t pin him……. So figured if i couldnt find him i would look for his stash. His great lake of love, that holds the whole world in gear. And when i finally found it i had the great pleasure of finding the people or guardians of it, and you know, it was us! All of us! Dig that!

    So with my 2×2 is 4 logic, i figured that if people were guarding the stash of love known as God, then, when people swing in beauty they become little Gods and Goddess’s, and i know a couple of them myself personally. i know you do to….so i ah think people should worship people. If I have to worship something, I’d like to worship something I can SEE……something I can get my HANDS on, get my brain around.

    I don’t know about that God cat, i cant reach ya…… i dont know…..it seems every time i find myself in the bind, nothing misty comes along to help me….some man or some woman stepped up and said… we’ll do this, or well do that. That’s the way it looks to me.
    So recently on the highway i got caught up in an old junker car going home. right in the middle of the freeway during the rush hour it konked out. It went ” honk, clap spanngg” woop got a weak clutch woop. It was a mad house like having lunch in the middle of the freeway. About three days went by and finally…along came God…. there was two of them….. a big God and little God…… they didn’t know me…but some how they twisted and they pulled and they yanked and gave me every possible assistance in the world and finally got me on my way.
    Haven’t seen them since…. but i think that people, (hope i haven’t offended your religious beliefs)…but i ah think that people should worship people…… i ah really do.

    Janma who received this in the mail from her son.

  15. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    November 13th, 2007 at 8:46 pm

    Dragonwall said:

    If Bahai is the true Islam according to Idam H, so what about Islam?

    No wonder the Islam are afraid of a sudden surge into such belief.

    those who are following the Word of Men are more prone to violence, intolerance and are less understanding

    So is that referring to the pro Islam left or right, Islamic radicals and fanatical clerics and uelamas?

    First we have to define Islam, The word Islam is an Arabic word meaning peace, submission and obedience. It does not mean simply the religion of the followers of Prophet Mohammed, although it unfortunately has become known as that.

    Following from this, a Muslim is one who is peacefull, and submits in obedience to the words of God.

    Allah quite clearly states in Al Quran:
    “Abraham was not a Jew nor a Christian, but he was an upright (man), a Muslim; and he was not one of the Polytheists.” 3:67

    This was generations before Mohammed was given Al Quran. As I have said earlier in this thread, God states in Al Quran that Sabeans, Jews, Christians, in fact any who believe in God, believe in the Day of Judgement, and do good deeds have nothing to fear from God. They are all Muslims because in its simplest form this statement is all that God requires of us.

    All of the religious dogma and ritual is manmade. Islam is Universal, as is the word Muslim, if we can just understand these simple facts and remove the ugly connotations that the words have developed for many people over the years, we come closer to religious unity. Maybe we just have to come up with different words for Islam and Muslim!

    As to the Bahai faith in this respect, whilst their religious practices appear to be closer in faith to the Word of God than the mainstream, they still idolise their prophet as do the Mainstream Muslims, Christians, etc. The reason for religion is worshiping God, anything which takes away from this can hardly be considered part of the true religion can it?

    Cuk said:

    Check in history, the real “God Word” fighter like “Abraham, Noah, Muhammad, Isa and Musa took fight in the real world at whatever cost while the God Word Hijacker was only buzz behind the curtain.

    Cuk,

    You really need to read more, The fights of these prophets was invariably against oppression of the people, injustice, and most of all ignorance. They were all, according to the scriptures, righteous men, kind and just, and more importantly were following the Word of God, not the words of other men!

    Nabi Isa who taught love and forgiveness, and debated with the religious scholars of his time because they had deviated from Gods word, was not crucified because of what he taught or his debating with the religious scholars, he was crucified because he was a challenge to the power of the authorities. Just as the Jewish mainstream did then, the Muslim mainstream do now, they follow the dictates of those in power, sacrificing and persecuting those who are a challenge to the authorities power.

    The Muslim mainstream are at the whim of the powerfull who manipulate them based on twisted religious teachings, and their inability to question and reason.

    Peace

  16. avatar Pakmantri says:
    November 13th, 2007 at 9:28 pm

    Mohammed Khafi,

    Could not have said it better myself, amen.

    Peace.

  17. avatar Dragonwall says:
    November 15th, 2007 at 7:11 am

    So the bottomlines in Islam, Bahai and all the conflicts are derivative from clerics?

  18. avatar Cukurungan says:
    November 15th, 2007 at 9:57 am

    Cuk,

    You really need to read more, The fights of these prophets was invariably against oppression of the people, injustice, and most of all ignorance. They were all, according to the scriptures, righteous men, kind and just, and more importantly were following the Word of God, not the words of other men!

    That is not my point every one know what you said but there is a clear different between you and the real God Word follower”¦.because the real God follower dare to take any risk include their own and family life to say and address “what is right and what is wrong” to mass and people directly not only hiding behind the curtain.

    “Orang Tua berumur 99.9 tahun bisa dan berani” if only say: Peace, Tolerance Education, Love, Care and Music are good whilst Killing , Cheating and Corruption is Bad. But to challange a cheater, a corruptor and tounge twister in the real life we need the real Men not a virtual wise man.

    The Muslim mainstream are at the whim of the powerfull who manipulate them based on twisted religious teachings, and their inability to question and reason.

    It is up to you to say 1000 time every day or to make a million posting “abrakedabra I am bla… bla ..bla whilst the muslim mainstream is bla..bla bla” but you do not dare to show up “¦” kata orang betawi nggak ngaruh men”"¦anyway if your curtain is dirty please wash it properly whilst you can use my sarung to hide.

  19. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    November 15th, 2007 at 4:49 pm

    Cuk,

    Whilst your comparing me with Prophets and Messengers is most flattering, I am just an ordinary man. I have not had face to face meetings direct with God, or had chats with Gibril, I am not even fired with the Holy Spirit as was Nabi Isa.

    I am sure that if God wished for me to die at the hands of a howling mob of brainless morons, he would arrange for it to happen. For the moment I am quite content knowing that I am trying to live up to His standards and trying to promote a fair and reasoned Islam, even from behing the relative anonimity of the internet. Why would I be stupid enough to throw away one of the greatest gifts that God has given us ‘The gift of life’?, when I can safely promote a more reasoned Islam from here.

    I know that people read my opinions and discuss them elsewhere in other forums and chat rooms, so at least I know that I have something to offer others. What do you have to offer Cuk?, in fact what have you ever offered which is constructional rather than provocational?

    Peace

  20. avatar iamisaid says:
    November 15th, 2007 at 10:30 pm

    Janma said : ” but i think that people, (hope i haven’t offended your religious beliefs)”¦but i ah think that people should worship people”¦”¦ i ah really do.”

    I say : That was utterly hilarious. Almost seemed Sudarsonic literature to say the least. LOL
    .
    But seriously now *dries up me eyes…, Janma does make a load of sense.

    If people cannot respect, like, appreciate, love and whatever…people whom they can see,communicate with, feel, touch and whatever…. how in this sanctimonius world can people claim they love God Whom they see not?

  21. avatar Cukurungan says:
    November 16th, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    Whilst your comparing me with Prophets and Messengers is most flattering, I am just an ordinary man. I have not had face to face meetings direct with God, or had chats with Gibril, I am not even fired with the Holy Spirit as was Nabi Isa.

    If you are only the ordinary man why you are acting like a prophet and arrogantly declaring that you are only the one knowing the truth whilst us and the rest other understanding Muslim are totally wrong but in other hand you have no prove to support your claim and even you admitted that you never meet with God directly and or chat with Gibril.
    Every muslim fully aware that we have different interpretation about Quran and Hadist and the way how to implement it but in general we respect each other as long as those belief or understanding do not cross the red line. Yes there is a power struggle between Suni especially Wahabian against Shiah Safawid but it is mostly politically motivated.

    I am sure that if God wished for me to die at the hands of a howling mob of brainless morons, he would arrange for it to happen. For the moment I am quite content knowing that I am trying to live up to His standards and trying to promote a fair and reasoned Islam, even from behing the relative anonimity of the internet. Why would I be stupid enough to throw away one of the greatest gifts that God has given us ‘The gift of life’?, when I can safely promote a more reasoned Islam from here.

    If your intention is for the good shake of the umah muslim why you afraid meet with them, we are an ordinary muslim believe that one of our important duties is to give “NASEHAT” or to correct or to remind our brother when they do something wrong according to our judgment and I do not think an ordinary muslim will become mad and kill you if you give “NASEHAT” in proper manner not by insulting and disgracing their belief.

    I tell you if your intention of your post is to insult or irritate the muslim mainstream belief you are in great success and you are deserve to be nominated “Great Muslim Basher”.
    But if your intention is to promote the fair and reasoned Islam that is in a Big Question because by declaring again and again “Your Mantra of Abrakedabra” in our understanding you are only manipulating the meaning in Quran to attack us whilst give entertainment to infidels.

    I know that people read my opinions and discuss them elsewhere in other forums and chat rooms, so at least I know that I have something to offer others. What do you have to offer Cuk?, in fact what have you ever offered which is constructional rather than provocational?

    Of course nothing wrong if you have something to offer but have you ask to Sabeans, Jews, Christians follower the following question:
    1)Is their God the same as the muslim God?
    2)Do they believe that Muhammad SAW is a last prophet?
    3) Do they believe if the Quran came from the God of Sabeans, Jews, Christians.?

    I believe their answer would be 99% is no then what is our point to compromise our belief with them, the rule of the mainstream muslim is quite clear that my religion is for mine and their religion is for theirs but we can live together to make and create social and public relationship as good as possible because in the end we are only accountable for our own conduct and deeds not the others.

  22. avatar Janma says:
    November 16th, 2007 at 2:22 pm

    Of course nothing wrong if you have something to offer but have you ask to Sabeans, Jews, Christians follower the following question:
    1)Is their God the same as the muslim God?
    2)Do they believe that Muhammad SAW is a last prophet?
    3) Do they believe if the Quran came from the God of Sabeans, Jews, Christians.?

    I’m not a christian or a jew or a sabean, but do I get to answer the questions too?

    1) in the absence of a qualifying statement I would guess you are just generally asking if the Christians God is the same as the Muslims God. You didn’t ask if they ‘think’ it’s the same God, just if He was the same God. I would say yes to this question, because if He was a different God, then why would it say in the Quran that the other people of the book were all ok and on the right track. (I really can’t be bothered digging out the appropriate surah right now, but you know it’s in there).
    2) About Muhammad being the last prophet….If I was a prophet, I’d probably say I was the last one too, just so as to stop anyone upstaging me. Pretty good strategy that…plus I think that the world has had enough prophets…. anymore and we may totally dissolve into illogical hatreds and chaos.
    3) I’m going to stop short of accusing Muhammad of plagiarism here, but I mean basically it is a rehash of the old testament hmmm? Hellfire, Brimstone, prophets, unbelievers, idols… nothing new there… I know there must be something special in there to have done so many peoples heads in…. God knows the Arabs have always been big fans of poetry… but if I never learn arabic I guess I’ll never know!? The english translation isn’t anything to write home about though…. hellfire, brimstone, repent, rewards, judgement…. did I miss anything?

  23. avatar Tuan says:
    November 17th, 2007 at 8:16 am

    Mohammed Khafi:

    Tuan,

    Why is the word of man, Sunnah and Hadith, given such a prominent place in Mainstream Islam, when compared to the Word of God, Al Quran?

    Just a rhetorical question!

    Peace

    Asslamu Alaikum

    My man! True that Sunnah and Hadith is a word of man, Prophet Muhammad SAW.

    “…I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the Sunnah, and if you follow these you will never go astray. All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listened to me directly.

    Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people. “ – Muhammad’s SAW last sermon

    That is why my brother.

    “It seems to me that this comment is biased. It is not my intention to defend the bible, but what has ‘the word of God’ to do with a narrative in a book that is also an account of the history of a people?”

    What does the “word of God” to do with a narrative in a book that is account of the history of a people? It has a lot to do since followers of those scriptures say it IS the word of God. If not they can’t call themselves Christians or Jews.

    ~Tuan Indonesian American Muslim

  24. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    November 17th, 2007 at 4:24 pm

    Cuk,

    I am certainly not acting like a prophet, I am bringing nothing new, I am just trying to point out to people that what they have been given and what they are following are two different things. I would never dream of forcing anybody to follow what I believe, as one of the principles I follow is that “there is no compulsion in religion”. I would not say that I have no proof though, my proof is in Al Quran.

    I do discuss these issues with my friends and neighbours, but I am lucky to live in a small kampung, where my views are tolerated by the mainstream. There is no hatred in our community which is the way it should be.

    You said:

    Every muslim fully aware that we have different interpretation about Quran and Hadist and the way how to implement it but in general we respect each other as long as those belief or understanding do not cross the red line. Yes there is a power struggle between Suni especially Wahabian against Shiah Safawid but it is mostly politically motivated.

    “In General” is the critical point in this statement, whilst you may be semi tolerant, there are others who would quite happily use violence against me and my family to silence me, what good would that serve? As I have said before I believe it is better to keep a low profile and discuss my beliefs and interpretation in the longer term.

    This “red line” you talk about, who gets to decide where it is positioned? I certainly don’t set any red line’s, you are free to believe what you wish as long as it doesn’t compell me or others to do the same, it is your choice. That is the difference between what you and I beleive. I have, and give to others, freedom of choice as given to us by Allah in Al Quran. There are those who would dictate what we should believe and how we have to practice our religious faith, that is clearly not following Allah’s teachings.

    You also said:

    I tell you if your intention of your post is to insult or irritate the muslim mainstream belief you are in great success and you are deserve to be nominated “Great Muslim Basher”.
    But if your intention is to promote the fair and reasoned Islam that is in a Big Question because by declaring again and again “Your Mantra of Abrakedabra” in our understanding you are only manipulating the meaning in Quran to attack us whilst give entertainment to infidels

    How could I be described as you have stated, when I am only trying to return people of all the monotheistic faiths to the shared core of their beliefs. To suggest ways for us all to live togther in peace and harmony, tolerant of our differences, and striving for a better future?

    I am not manipulating anything, the verses are clearly stated in Al Quran. Allah says he has made our religion simple for us, are there none who will follow?

    You also said:

    Of course nothing wrong if you have something to offer but have you ask to Sabeans, Jews, Christians follower the following question:
    1)Is their God the same as the muslim God?
    2)Do they believe that Muhammad SAW is a last prophet?
    3) Do they believe if the Quran came from the God of Sabeans, Jews, Christians.?

    I believe their answer would be 99% is no then what is our point to compromise our belief with them, the rule of the mainstream muslim is quite clear that my religion is for mine and their religion is for theirs but we can live together to make and create social and public relationship as good as possible because in the end we are only accountable for our own conduct and deeds not the others.

    You are quite likely correct that 99% of them would say that their God is a different God, but that is likely because they are just as mislead by their religious establishment as the Mainstream Muslims are by theirs.

    I could ask you to question your Mainstream friends about the chances of Jews, Sabeans, and Christians going to heaven, I think you would get the same percentage of responses in the negative. When I have asked this question of my fellow Muslim workers around the globe they all say the same thing, Heaven is for Muslims, Jews and Christians will go to hell. When the verse in Al Quran is mentioned to them which states quite clearly that Any who believe in God, believe in the Day of Judgement and do good deeds have nothing to fear from Allah, they then say that such a verse doesn’t exist, when it is pointed out to them and they have read it, they are stunned into silence! That is when they start to think about Islam and what they understand it to mean!
    Unfortunately there are those who no matter how much they are shown, will never understand they are the ones whose hearts have been sealed.

    I do have reservations about your second question, what relevance does this have to if they are believers or not? Nabi Ibrahim, is clearly decribed in Al Quran as a Muslim, he was born and died centuries before Prohet Mohammed.

    As to Prophet Mohammed being the Last Prophet, I assume that you are basing this on him being described as “The Seal of the Prophets” (khaatam an- nabeyen) in 33:40

    A seal has the function of attesting the authenticity of something, this verse seems to me to be saying that Prophet Mohammed is attesting the authenticity of the previous prohets. The idolisers of the Prophet, have twisted the meaning to become “Last of the Prohets” when in fact it appears to mean no such thing.

    Please do not get me wrong here, I am not suggesting that there have been other Prophets since Nabi Mohammed, but I do not personally believe that the verse says that he is the last.

    Tuan Said:

    My man! True that Sunnah and Hadith is a word of man, Prophet Muhammad SAW.

    “”¦I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the Sunnah, and if you follow these you will never go astray. All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listened to me directly.

    Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people. ” – Muhammad’s SAW last sermon

    That is why my brother.

    Thank you Tuan, you have just demonstrated why Mainstream Islam and its followers are in such a sad state.
    Allah has guaranteed Al Quran, he stated that nothing could approach it from in front or behind, nothing could change it.

    The Sunnah and Hadith however are not promised this protection even if they here originally from the words and deeds of The Prophet, and in many, many cases this seems highly unlikely.

    I give you an example from The Prophets last sermon which you quoted:
    Please don’t forget that unlike the vast majority of Hadith which were from one person, this event was witnessed by thousands of people, yet despite this fact there are no less than three versions of the sentence you quoted.

    1) I leave with you Quran and Sunnah.
    Muwatta, 46/3

    2) I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt.
    Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.

    3) I leave you for the Quran alone you shall uphold it.
    Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.

    So which is the truth?

    What is the matter with you? How judge ye?Or have ye a book through which ye learn- That ye shall have, through it whatever ye choose? 68:36-38

    If you really want to know just follow the guidance from Al Quran:

    “Shall I seek OTHER THAN GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED? ….The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words; He is the hearer, the omniscient. Yet, if you obey the majority of people, they will take you away from the path of The God. That is because they follow CONJECTURE, and they fail to think.” (Quran, 6:114-116)

    Peace

  25. avatar dewaratugedeanom says:
    November 17th, 2007 at 4:25 pm

    Cukurungan said

    But if your intention is to promote the fair and reasoned Islam that is in a Big Question because by declaring again and again “Your Mantra of Abrakedabra” in our understanding you are only manipulating the meaning in Quran to attack us whilst give entertainment to infidels.

    Did it ever occur to you that it could be you who gives entertainment to the infidels? Dakwah is certainly lost on you. So please, carry on.

    Tuan said

    What does the “word of God” to do with a narrative in a book that is account of the history of a people? It has a lot to do since followers of those scriptures say it IS the word of God. If not they can’t call themselves Christians or Jews.

    I will leave it to the Christians and Jews to explain where God’s words end and storytelling begins. But to me it seems quite obvious.

  26. avatar Tuan says:
    November 17th, 2007 at 11:45 pm

    Asslamau Alaikum Bro Mohammad Kahfi

    1) I leave with you Quran and Sunnah.
    Muwatta, 46/3

    2) I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt.
    Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.

    3) I leave you for the Quran alone you shall uphold it.
    Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.

    So which is the truth?

    Well what is the truth to you? Obviously the first one is what the Sunnis follow and the second is what Shias follow. The thrid is what the Quran only crowd follow and use to back up their claim to follow the Quran only and reject hadith. What is odd is the third crowd are contradicting themselves by using a hadith to contradict a hadith. Whatever floats your boat is cool with me. All in all, we are brothers and sisters. When it comes down to it, I will reach out a hand to help you out if you are in need, regardless what your stance is on the hadith.

    I acknowledge that not all hadith are truthful, which i think is the motivation behind those who reject hadith (The Quran only crowd). When I was in kindergarten we played a game called “Chinese telephone” where one will whisper a story from to one and then whisper the story to another. The end result was that the end story is not the same as the original, as something has been lost while being passed down to person to person. Hadith for a lack of better word are oral traditions. There is not question in my mind that Hadith is not infallible compared to the Quran. That i agree with you.

    At the same time, there has been centuries of research done to verify what is truth or what is not in the hadith. If you want to do layman research, if a hadith contradicts the Quran, then it is not valid. In other words, we have to use our mind and logic to believe what is true and what isn’t in the Hadith (May Allah guide us all). Overall, there is scholarship involved in studying them.

    Here is a video on Hadith Criticism by a University of Washington professor.
    Part 1

    Part 2

    Part 3

    Part 4

    If you really want to know just follow the guidance from Al Quran:

    “Shall I seek OTHER THAN GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED? “¦.The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words; He is the hearer, the omniscient. Yet, if you obey the majority of people, they will take you away from the path of The God. That is because they follow CONJECTURE, and they fail to think.” (Quran, 6:114-116)

    The Quran also says:

    Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.

    (Yusuf Ali translation- Qur’an 7:157)

    O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.
    Qur’an 4:59

    Walaikum Salaam my brotha

    ~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim

  27. avatar Tuan says:
    November 18th, 2007 at 12:34 am

    dewaratugedeanom:

    I will leave it to the Christians and Jews to explain where God’s words end and storytelling begins. But to me it seems quite obvious.

    FYI: The Bible is often called the “Word of God”.

    ~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim

  28. avatar Cukurungan says:
    November 18th, 2007 at 9:38 am

    Did it ever occur to you that it could be you who gives entertainment to the infidels? Dakwah is certainly lost on you. So please, carry on.

    BLI buat apa Dakwah?” By doing nothing just f*cking there is at least 25 million/year a new born Muslim that you need to save from this earth therefore…I strongly recommend you to improve your insult and mock skill otherwise this world will be overwhelmed by the Muslim population.

  29. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    November 18th, 2007 at 4:19 pm

    Asallamu Alaikum Tuan

    Tuan said:

    The thrid is what the Quran only crowd follow and use to back up their claim to follow the Quran only and reject hadith. What is odd is the third crowd are contradicting themselves by using a hadith to contradict a hadith.

    I don’t know about Quran only, Al Quran states that it is a confirmation of that which came before it in no less than 16 Surah’s, as a true Muslim we have to accept, Qur’an,
    Injil, Torah, Zabur and Suhuf-i-Ibrahim.

    I am not using a hadith to contradict the collections of hadith, I was using it to illustrate that even with 1000′s of witnesses to The Prohets last sermon, there are three different versions, what hope can there be for so called hadith transmitted from one person? Despite the hundreds of years of research to show which hadith are authentic, we still have these contradictions in what was witnessed by thousands of people.

    As I said earlier, Allah tells us to use his book and nothing else as a source of law:

    “Shall I seek OTHER THAN GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED? “¦.The word of your Lord is COMPLETE, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words; He is the hearer, the omniscient. Yet, if you obey the majority of people, they will take you away from the path of The God. That is because they follow CONJECTURE, and they fail to think.” (Quran, 6:114-116)

    You quoted:
    “Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.”

    This verse clearly say follow the messenger, to do that we have to follow the message he brought, it is reinforced later in the verse where Allah says “and follow the light which is sent down with him”

    You also quoted:
    “O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.”
    4:59

    This clearly refers to a time when Prophet Mohammed was alive, how is it possible to refer anything to The Prophet after his death? Do you want to refer to writings which may or may not have come from The Prophets mouth? Writings which are full of contradictions not only to Al Quran, but also amongst themselves, writings which denigrate The Prophet and his character, which lower the status of women, which encourage blind faith with no reasoning, slavery, polygamy, ritualistic practices over real practical implementation of faith.

    You have suggested that we could just use the hadith which agree with Al Quran, why? Allah clearly states:

    ‘Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?‘” Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.” 6:114

    “And We have come to them with a Scripture which We have detailed with knowledge; a guide and a mercy to those who believe.” 7:52

    We have revealed to you the Scripture with truth that you may judge between the people by that which God has shown you, and do not be an advocate for the treacherous. ” 4:105

    “And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Scripture as a clarification for all things, and a guide and mercy and good tidings to those who have surrendered.” 16:89

    And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.” 5:48

    Allahs word is all you need brother Tuan, that is the criterion. What Allah tells you to do, do, what Allah tells you not to do don’t do, and everything else is up to you.
    Islam is God’s Universal religion not the religion of Mohammed, or Isa, or Musa or Ibrahim or any of the other Prophets. Take Gods word, and not the words of men as your guidance.

    Peace

  30. avatar Tuan says:
    November 19th, 2007 at 2:53 am

    Asslamu Alaikum Mohammed Khafi,

    Let me start off that I enjoy our exchanges on thoughts of Islam. I hope it is enlightening to you as it is to me, and hopefully for others who read this. I am glad that is for the most part civil.

    “You have suggested that we could just use the hadith which agree with Al Quran, why? Allah clearly states:….” & Re: Quran, 6:114-116

    The primary reason for using hadiths is help better understand the Quran. There is no doubt in my mind that the Quran is perfect, and I agree with you 100%, despite nuances in translation (jilbab and nushuz). But, it is not possible to understand the Qur’an fully and practice its commands without following the sunnah of the prophet of Allah. Salat is a good example, which is also mentioned in EVERY variation of the last sermon that has been recanted by, in your words, “1000′s of witnesses to The Prohets last sermon”:

    “…Listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers …” (“The Farewell Sermon”, Muhammad SAW, 632 CE)

    “This clearly refers to a time when Prophet Mohammed was alive, how is it possible to refer anything to The Prophet after his death?”

    That is why we have his Sunnah.

    “Do you want to refer to writings which may or may not have come from The Prophets mouth?”

    As I said before, not every hadith can be verified. That is why there are authentic hadiths and weak, unauthentic hadiths.

    “Writings which are full of contradictions not only to Al Quran, but also amongst themselves, writings which denigrate The Prophet and his character, which lower the status of women, which encourage blind faith with no reasoning, slavery, polygamy, ritualistic practices over real practical implementation of faith.”

    Which is why we don’t neglect the Quran when studying hadiths. If a hadith contradicts a passage in the Quran, we disregard it. We read the hadiths carefully, we refer to the Quran, we ask the opinions of others and finally we make our own decision on it.

    ~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim

    Walikum Salaam

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