314 Comments on “Bahai”
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iamisaid Says:
January 6th, 2008 at 11:20 pmPakmantri,
I believe your son calls you, “my dear crazy old man” “¦”¦”¦”¦”¦ ha ha ha.
YA AMPUN! ya kah? KURANG AJARRRR anak tu!
I’m going to whup his ass!
Tulah Pak Mantri, sebagai Mentri Pendidikan, Republik Komodo (http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1540/letter-to-president/) tapi pendidikan di sekolah tak ajarin anak anak sekolah se cara yang betol.
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January 6th, 2008 at 11:42 pmSusan,
Well, it is good to see you seem to be on the right side this time.
It all depends what is right and what is wrong. It’s all a matter of perspection and largely where one survives - mental perspective in this case. My opinion merely questions the rationale.
But for now, I will take advantage of such rare sweetness in being regarded that I “seem” to be on the right side this time. LOL!
I think it all boils down to the fact that no religion wants to be superceded.
That is where the trouble begins and never fails to end. As I said yesterday, like children playing god, telling each other, “My god will beat up your god”. “Oh yeah?”, says the other defiantly, “and my god will beat up your god too.”
And poor God, slapping His Face one time for the first child, then slapping his Face again for the second child!
I think it may have more to do with the spread of Wahhabism in Indonesia which made Muslims there intolerant whereas formerly they were quite open. Back in the 70’s Baha’is had no problems in your country, though usually they didn’t try and convert Muslims.
Honestly, I find the variety of Islamic sects/zeal hard to follow. So I shall leave it at that and they can beat up themselves till some reason prevails in the end, I hope.
It might possibly be a case of the national government’s policies not reaching…………..
Perhaps so, perhaps not so. From what I read, those who officiated the issue as reported in the IM article. were acting under the influence of the majority or whatever. The laws of the country was not adhered to and therefore they had their unlawful way to exert their minds on the new Bahai converts. That’s how I perceive it.
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January 6th, 2008 at 11:45 pmSusan,
It’s all a matter of perspection….
Haiya, ejaan, ejaannnnnn ku!
perception dong!
Maafkan
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Susan Says:
January 7th, 2008 at 12:00 amWouldn’t it be nice if this site had a spell-checker?
But hey, we can get an Avatar!
On 1/6/08, Indonesia Matters wrote:
> There is a new comment on the post “Bahai”.
> http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1465/bahai/
>
> Author: iamisaid
> Comment:
> Susan,
>
>
It’s all a matter of perspection….
>
> Haiya, ejaan, ejaannnnnn ku!
>
> perception dong!
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January 7th, 2008 at 12:17 amMas Patung,
Susan says:
Wouldn’t it be nice if this site had a spell-checker?
I echo:
Could we? pellleassse.
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Grace Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 10:59 amIf anyway has read through all of that to the end… haha
Reading arguments like this, always makes me really confused because neither side seem to have a clear position, and aren’t responding to the same things.
Islam is a wonderful religion. It was a religion that bought civilization, justice and order to the immoral, depraved and barbaric pre-Islamic Middle Eastern society. Muhammad brought laws that established peace. Muhammad brought laws that introduced eduation, and provided the foundations for a great civilization.
The foundation of a great civilization is the beginning that all major religions start with. These religions also, for some inexplicable reason, falter and grow corrupt. Religious leaders (from whom the religious bodies receive the majority of their guidance) - not all, but many, become more interested in the power their positions wield them, and not instead in working selflessly for the betterment of their fellow man.
The religion loses its purity and potent essence.
As God has established his covenant with mankind, He does not abandon us to a decaying society, but instead, He sends us another message of love through one of His many Manifestations - Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses and Baha’u'llah. Through these Manifestations, a new message is given with the same fundamental spiritual principles, but also with teachings directly related to the issues that the society then faces.
The Bahai Faith is so similar to Islam! Islam is so similar to Christianity! Christianity is so similar to Judaism! Buddhism is so similar to Hinduism! They are so fundamentally similar, and yet, they all possess different and unique potentials, one cannot replace the other.
One potential that all religions prior to the Bahai Faith do not and could not possess, is that regarding the establishment of world unity. This was because at the time of those other religions, the world wasn’t as big, life involved much less geographical space. Each prior religion progressively established peace and unity in larger areas, a country, a continent. Their message of unity was achieved in these areas, but was not focused on the world as a whole. Instead, there was a promise of a future golden age.
The Bahai Faith’s teachings centre around the establishment of this New World Order, upholding, validating and unifying the previous religions that foretell the coming of Baha’u'llah - the Glory of God.
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gOObers Says:
March 26th, 2008 at 4:37 pmAs God has established his covenant with mankind, He does not abandon us to a decaying society, but instead, He sends us another message of love through one of His many Manifestations - Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses and Baha’u'llah. Through these Manifestations, a new message is given with the same fundamental spiritual principles, but also with teachings directly related to the issues that the society then faces.
The Bahai Faith is so similar to Islam! Islam is so similar to Christianity! Christianity is so similar to Judaism! Buddhism is so similar to Hinduism! They are so fundamentally similar, and yet, they all possess different and unique potentials, one cannot replace the other.
False teaching! You are so confused, Grace!
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Mr tanjung panyabungan Says:
April 17th, 2008 at 2:29 amFor every moslem, i hope you don’t leave your religion just becouse money. Nothing connection of money and faith. If you believe islam. You will be safe in this word and here after. Please belive me. Islam is the best. Please study your religion. If you release your religion becouse poorness. You will be poor forever.
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April 17th, 2008 at 8:43 amMr. tanjung wrote:
“For every moslem, i hope you don’t leave your religion just becouse money. Nothing connection of money and faith. If you believe islam. You will be safe in this word and here after. Please belive me. Islam is the best. Please study your religion. If you release your religion becouse poorness. You will be poor forever.”Rest assured that if any Muslim becomes a Baha’i it would not be for the money. We don’t have any.
Seriously, given the kind of persecution they face when they become Baha’is in a Muslim country why would any one do this except that they recognized Baha’u'llah to be the Promised Mahdi? For instance, in Iran Baha’is have been deprived of their liveliohood and permitted to take only the menial employment. Their homes and pensions have been expropriated. Their children are harrassed in school. They are denied access to higher education no matter how well they score on the entrance exams.
“Neither fortune, nor wealth, nor glory, could deter them! God knoweth the things which befell them and yet the people are, for the most part, unaware!”
(Baha’u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 72)
Judge fairly. Is God on the side of the oppressors or the oppressed?
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Shloka Says:
June 5th, 2008 at 10:01 am@ Grace,
Sure Islam maybe the point from which Saudi Arabia came into the full light of history, but to call all the Pre Islamic Middle Eastern world “barbaric “is certainly presumptious. In the Middle East, Iran had a thriving Zoroastrian community, and had been a world power for more than a millennia, when Muslim invaders came. Zoroastrianism was a monotheistic, well organized religion too with a sound theology. Cyrus the Great, the Persian King, abolished slavery a thousand years before Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) birth who clearly allowed slavery. Even Mesopotemia( Present Iraq) was a thriving civilization which began 4000 Years before Islam. Ancient Egypt’s achievements are probably well known to all. Did you know, in Ancient Egypt, women got the same inheritance as their brothers, could lodge cases in Court, travel without a male escort( Muslim women in Saudi still need a related man to accompany them) and daughters were as wanted as sons. Even in Saudi Arabia, Khadija the Prophet’s wife was a successful businesswoman, one of the richest in Saudi. She could personally propose to and marry a man 15 years her junior.
@ Mr. Tanjung,
Some people do indeed leave their religion because of poverty, there maybe many others who leave it because of personal conviction. Many very poor nations, Yemen, Algeria, Sudan have a death penalty for apostasy from Islam! While Islam maybe the best for you, for some others it might be bad or even the worst. You have to allow them that choice. -
Bahai Left Says:
July 2nd, 2008 at 7:55 amBahai is like a rubbish bin. You have all kinds of things overthere. It is a man-made religion and it has a connection with zionism, the action that legalizes killing, torturing and occupying the Palestinian teritory. What is so important about Bahai?
They want to go to hell, let them go by themselves. -
July 2nd, 2008 at 10:05 amThe Baha’i Faith has no connection whatsoever with Zionism. It ended up in Palestine because that is where the Baha’u'llah was exiled by the Ottoman Empire.
If the Baha’i Faith is not important then you should leave us alone and stop persecuting us. According to the Qur’an persecution is worse than murder. -
Sophie Says:
October 24th, 2008 at 8:39 pmI am a Christian. I think everyone should have religous rights, I love Indonesia and it’s culture but I think they should not just limit the people to the Six official religions of Indonesia.
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Barry Prima Says:
November 17th, 2008 at 8:03 amSusan Grace….it seems this thread is kind of dead….never did get round to it earlier I’m afraid. But i have a few questions to ask of you.
I am not well informed about the Baha’i Faith, but my instinctive reaction is to put it alongside other contemporary systems such as Qadiyani, Jehovas witness, Fulan Gong etc.
I noticed your other responses, all very nice and polite, however nice and polite and politically correct does not mean something is true and makes me naturally suspicious. My questions, although seemingly harsh are not intended to embarrass you but present to you how Bahais comes across to a Muslim. I hope you can help me to improve my understanding with some deep and meaningful replies. I have only thought about Baha’i seriously for the last few hours, as before i never could take a religion that claims it is the latest and most perfect one seriously when in over a hundred years it has failed to achieve anything and only managed 5/6, million adherents. Doesn’t look like gods on your side, although that as an argument is quite weak I admit.I have highlighted some basic Baha’i principles and then explain underneath why they come across as false to me.
Bahai claims all the religions are from god.
Seemingly simple concept but it cannot avoid the trap of other religions in that in practise it has by its very nature or claim to be the truth compete and thus invalidate other phenomena’s of the same kind such as the aforementioned ….Qaddiyani, Jehovah witness, Rastafarianism etc etc. Bahai also does not recognise Sikhism.
So no real change there is there?
In fact in claiming that all religions are from god, but then contradicting itself it is dishonest and untrue. By espousing a unity of religions on a level where it is impossible it fails as an ideology or religion on a very basic metaphysical principle.All have to find the truth by their selves and there is no compulsion or competition.
Anyone who leaves the Bahia faith, still feels that he/she is damned (read the numerous ex Baha’i sites/forums including one very revealing one from a Baha’i in Indonesia)..(i have to be honest and admit i just read them in the last hour).. If Baha’i is the truth then leaving the Baha’i faith is rejecting the truth or not? Some sects of the Bahai are said to be traitors or not?
So again you have the same value judgments/discrimination of world into camps of right and wrong.
Again although it sounds good in theory Bahia fails even more terribly than other religions because it fails to meet with reality on the very terms that it starts out. It is pretending to be something it can never be, unlike Islam and the other religions which are only what they are and never feel to apologize for their suchness.
Bahai aims to bring unity of Mankind by peaceful means and without negating other religions.
If Bahai is the truth and intends (as it evidently does) to convert other people into its ranks, it can never be peaceful, as this very small scale example in Indonesia shows us. If people accept Baha’i they have to reject Islam and change their ritual practise etc….so that means Islam is untrue or less true than Baha’i?
If Bahai faith is accepted it involves a rejection at some level of something else, and thus will inevitably cause great conflict in societies.
So do Bahais think that the truth of Bahai will come after great suffering or not?If they do, and the reality of the world dictates that they would be blind not to, what is the difference between Baha’i and other faiths? There isn’t any, so what is the use of Bahai?
By saying all religions are from god does not solve the problem of religious rivalry, Bahai just creates new conflicts that only accentuate the existing ones and again fails on it very basis for existing!
You cannot claim to be the completion of the existing great faiths, by creating a new one In trying to do so you are being very dishonest and most of all untrue!Bahai is the external manifestation of the transcendent unity of religions.
I have come across this argument on my googling in the last few hours from Bahais who try to explain it as the crystallisation of Perennial philosophy, when no perennial traditionalist actually recognised Bahais as valid (in fact some expressly when acknowledging its existence condemned it) Even a basic grasp of perennial principles will lead to the conclusion that Bahais is false on the very premise on which it claims to be true.
I acknowledge the transcendent Unity of religions but i feel Baha’is’ is a false religion and thus very harmful for the following reasons:
The transcendent unity of religions is just that, it is transcendent not imminent, (Tasbih and Tanzih)it exist in the inner reality of the universe/man not the outer reality. From the point of view of god, all is one, from the point of man all is evidently not one.
In Islamic mysticism and in Buddhism the integrity of the world is maintained by the Qutubs or bodhisattvas who are in the invisible realm, ie not in this world. Same in Taoism where the sage is guiding the destiny of the world although he is unknown to the world.
Islam,chrisitanity all have a necessary element within them that excludes people outside of them(at least on the outset). This is necessary because by excluding them it instigates a response from them that keeps them from stepping too far outside of their natural domain. They thus encourage multiplicity and balance much better and more naturally than a faith which pretends to acknowledge them and their worth in an attempt to bring them under its own control ie Bahai.From what i can see Bahai is a religion and has the same built in problems of any religion, but it pretends or alludes to not having them and thus invalidates itself and is thus wolf in sheep’s clothing. The world doesn’t need any more religions it needs a greater understanding of the ones that already exist. Perhaps what the world needs is a person who can clarify and illuminate what already exist rather than proposing something new that replaces it all. That is what the Mehdi is described as being in Islam not a new prophet.
Finally I Apologise in that my arguments are not properly constructed, as I have only given this serious thought as mentioned in the last few hours. However I hope your responses can help me to clarify this matter better to myself, who know I might even change my mind!
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