Women in Mosques

Sep 17th, 2007, in News, by

Women are not allowed in the Sultan mosque in Ternate.

Women & Their Unholy Voices

While almost all mosques in Indonesia allow women to come inside and pray, although they have to sit behind the men, the Sultan mosque in Ternate, North Maluku (Maluku Utara, Malut) (map) is unique in forbidding women from entering.

Djafar, a local figure, explains:

Only men can pray in this mosque, women are not allowed. This is an old tradition and has never been broken.

The mosque’s cleric, Ridwan Dero, says the reason for the banning of women is to protect the holiness of the place:

If women pray here then their menstruation might suddenly start. Apart from that the men who come to pray here might be bothered by seeing women or hearing their voices.

There are no exceptions to the rule at any time.

Men & Their Holy Trousers

The men who come are required to wear long trousers – wearing of sarongs only is not sufficient – and they must also have the top of their heads covered by a kopiah or sorban.

Ridwan Dero explains that by wearing trousers the men show that they have truly prepared themselves to face God. Dero says that when men are standing up while praying, and wearing trousers, the position of their legs forms the words “lam alif“. Lam alif represents the two statements of the Muslim confession of faith, “there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet”. In this way men who wear trousers show in physical, visible form that they believe in the confession of faith.

Guards are on hand, perhaps similarly to those at the Baiturrahman mosque in Aceh, who advise men who arrive in only sarongs to go home and get changed, or just go to another mosque.

Similarly the wearing of headwear is required as a sign of respect to God. The guards have spare caps to lend to visitors should the latter have forgotten their head-wear. mediaindo

The Menara mosque in Semarang, Central Java, is another old mosque which does not allow women, although the reasons are not stated. It is used mainly by Indonesians of Arab descent. indosiar


219 Comments on “Women in Mosques”

  1. Augusto says:

    Dear Korill,

    I am not here to argue those biblical verses, you can argue with the christians. Like I always said all religion is a mix-bag of good and bad. Islam is right on top of the list when it comes to violence and killing kuffar.

    When was the last time you see a christian or budhdist beheading people on tv shouting “halleluya” and quoting verses from their holy book. Look what happend to pedo priest, they are all arrested and punished most severely and humilated by the whole nation. Do you know what happend to aisha in the hands of pedo moh. He is even still considered as a prophet and all good muslim should emulate him. Amazing huh?

    Now, we dont have to go so far as to afghan or mid east to see the truth of islam. Take alook at abu bkr basheer, he has a lot of very loyal supporters, he is even considering of running for presidency next year. What makes you think this can all happend? All good muslims like fpi, mmi, and the like will support him, because abb is well known for his consistency in promoting sharia. Do you what is the motive behind sharia? Do you know it is every muslims duty to implement it. Do we have this kind of problems with other religions?

  2. Ihaknt says:

    Gee guys…seriously, it’s not the religion, it’s the followers. In the end we are ALL human, of course we make sins. Nobody is perfect. Saying [insert religion here] has more sin than others is a sinful act in itself. Only God can judge. So why can’t we just respect each other? Who cares whose book is better, they all could have been written by someone at the right time and the right era! Arguing about religion will never give human a win win situation. Enjoy life!

  3. Hassan says:

    We shouldn’t pass judgment about something before we understand the reason for
    such things or what it’s all about.

    Sylvester:

    The prove of islam discriminates women. Something that never seen in any other religions. The real GOD always treat all human same.

    The reason why women were placed behind men in the mosque is not because women are inferior to men, but for practical reasons. First of all, Muslims congregational prayer (Shalat berjamaah) was done in such a way that people stand in lines so close to each other that they almost touch each other in way or or another. If men and women were intermingled in those lines, some of those men and women WILL have other things on their mind rather than remembering Allah SWT alone, that is human nature. Especially if the women or men directly next to you are beautiful or handsome, depending on your gender.

    Secondly, why must the men be placed in the front and the women in the back? Because Allah SWT had decreed that the Imam (the leader of the prayer) must be a man. Why? Why had God created Adam before He created Eve? These things are God’s prerogative that we shouldn’t fuss about, it’s the kind of things that God gets to decide, not us.

    This is a pathetic moslem thinking. Horrible. Women menstruation is something good and beauty, without it means no pregnancy, no birth, no child, no happiness.

    When you say women menstruation, did you include the menstrual blood? Was that something good and beautiful to you? Besides, “women menstruation” had nothing to do with pregnancy or birth. A regular menstruation probably shows that the woman is healthy in childbearing term, but actually pregnancy or even ovulation will not happen during a woman’s menstruation. Have you ever seen a pregnant woman having her period? Or a woman became pregnant during her menstruation?

    sonnie:

    Okay I got it, so women don’t have their proper places in mosques, how about in Heaven, do women allowed to enter Heaven?

    Where was it mentioned that the women didn’t have their proper places in mosques? It was mentioned that the women sit behind the men, that doesn’t mean they didn’t have a proper place, does it? The arrangement serves a particular function as I explained earlier. If the Sultan mosque in Ternate prohibits women from entering then it’s hardly the general practice.

    Julita:

    which colonization do you mean, all? I need the source and reference of colonization in the name of Christianity. This is new to me. Was it really Christianity, evangelization, trade, money, power or territory?

    Have you ever heard the motto of the Colonialists? Gold, Glory, Gospel wasn’t it?
    So the three aim was applied simultaneously in their endeavors.

  4. Sylvester says:

    The menstrual blood is something neutral, like any other blood. What is dirty is the mind of islamic imams. Good mind can see the beauty of many things, the evil mind only sees the dark side.

    Also, islam just copied a common pagan or dark magic belief regarding menstrual blood. It is not surprising, since islam had copied judaism & christianty, modified the teaching as well.

    Have you ever seen a pregnant woman having her period? Or a woman became pregnant during her menstruation?

    That was a silly question, Hassan. Ha ha ha.

    Have you ever heard the motto of the Colonialists? Gold, Glory, Gospel wasn’t it?

    Gospel mainly done by evangelists, gold and glory by the knights/royal families. Yes, it was a mix of politic and religion
    In islam, these 3 things also exists, done by the same guys.

    Because Allah SWT had decreed that the Imam (the leader of the prayer) must be a man.

    There is still controversy on this inside islam itself. Not a good debate.

  5. Julita says:

    Hassan: Have you ever heard the motto of the Colonialists? Gold, Glory, Gospel wasn’t it?So the three aim was applied simultaneously in their endeavors.

    Jlta: In Their endeavours, you mean the Vatican (the Swiss guard?) or any Christians church send their army to invade, dig gold, and do their missionary?

  6. Julita says:

    Folks, very good discussion indeed!

    korril is taking us to a very good point, part of the Bible which even some Christians have problem in understanding them. So we better discuss it and clear it up for all. It will take time for me (have a family) unless somebody come up, I think we all wll appreciate that.
    It is out of the context again but that is what discussion and learning is.

  7. Odinius says:

    Dear Julita and Augusto,

    If you don’t understand how central Christianity–and Christianization–was to the colonial project from Columbus to decolonialization, they you just haven’t read anything on the subject. I suggest you go to your local library and start getting into it. If possible, find primary documents. Christianizing the “heathens” provided the moral justification for what was otherwise a rape and pillage enterprise. Even the Dutch administration in Indonesia viewed itself as a rational and Christian regime.

    On to a general note not aimed at anyone:

    Frankly, I’m sick of all the ridiculous Islam bashing on this site. TBH, the people who have demonstrated themselves to be the least tolerant on here are those supposedly are so opposed to Islamic intolerance. Think about it. It’s intellectually lazy and just a bit hypocritical.

    As Ihaknt said:

    Gee guys”¦seriously, it’s not the religion, it’s the followers. In the end we are ALL human, of course we make sins. Nobody is perfect. Saying [insert religion here] has more sin than others is a sinful act in itself. Only God can judge. So why can’t we just respect each other? Who cares whose book is better, they all could have been written by someone at the right time and the right era! Arguing about religion will never give human a win win situation. Enjoy life!

    If someone can’t stand anyone being a Muslim, then they should go move somewhere where there aren’t any. Maybe the intolerant Muslims can move there with them too. Then the rest of us can live in peace.

  8. Andrew says:

    Jlta: Please, Odinius, which colonization do you mean, all? I need the source and reference of colonization in the name of Christianity. This is new to me. Was it really Christianity, evangelization, trade, money, power or territory?

    Julita, Julita… you are always…
    (1) in denial about the (black) past of Christianity
    (2) asking for reference for something you can find yourself

    It is clear by any reference that one of the main objectives of the colonialization was to spread Christianity. Pick any history book you like, or tune to the History Channel, it’s all there.

    Good or bad, history is reality. Why tamper with that?

  9. Korrill says:

    Just a little info for everybody: I’m not muslim. I used to be a christian. I was born as one and worshipped as one until the day I finally thought to seek the truth. I have lived with the christian dogmas all my life. I believe I can safely say that I know more about it than most of you here.

    @ Sylvester: Nice point. I agree on all terms save one: What is the religion if not the church itself.

    @ Augusto: Okay, let’s see what happened to the pedo priests. They were all arrested and punished (well, maybe not all). But consider the fact: those priests were arrested not because of any action by the church. All of them were arrested after their victims regained their repressed memories and filed charges. In all cases, the church sought to cover-up each and ever incident. They sent errant priests to retreats and “spiritual” treatments then relocated them. In every situation, the pedo priests just returned to their old habits and victimized children again. Go to http://www.crimelibrary.com and look for Fr. Porter and Fr. Geoghan.

    On another point: what is the difference between islam and christianity that a pedophile priest can be punished yet a pedophile imam cannot? In my opinion, it’s simple: christianity fell from grace. The crimes and sins of the church at the height of its power caused the people to question its authority. The people had enough of all the senseless killings and persecutions, and so the church lost authority. They began to turn to other sources of truth such as science and reality. This became known as the Enlightenment – the rise of reason after the christian dark-ages.

    And don’t try to fool yourself into the image of an all-pure christianity. Christianity still has a lot of crackpots who killed in the name of God. Look up Charles Manson, Ruben Ecleo, Jim Jones, and David Koresh.

    And please don’t think I’m just against christianity. I’m against all organized religions who preach hatred and self-righteousness. I’m against every scripture that is open to variable interpretations. And most of all – I’M AGAINST ANY PERSON WHO WOULD USE SUCH SCRIPTURES TO OPPRESS OR HARM ANOTHER.

  10. Julita says:

    Korril, because of their selfishness, the church has to pay lots, lots of money for them. We can hear it clearly in the Catholic because the press are good in it. No, the others we don’t hear, not that they are good, but perhaps it is allowed for them or that it is, O.K.

    Andrew: It is clear by any reference that one of the main objectives of the colonialization was to spread Christianity. Pick any history book you like, or tune to the History Channel, it’s all there.

    Jlta: Do you mean the VOC went to Indonesia to convert them or for spices?

  11. Julita says:

    Korrill: To all: Christianity is not without its own sins.

    Jlta: Definitely Christianity is not without sins, up to the present time some of her members are smearing the church. In every way name it, no surprise.
    ______________________
    Korrill: If you want to know more about this, search some of these topics: dark ages, witch trials, murder of hypatia, and the inquisition.Christian “missionaries” of the past have been responsible for the deaths of more christians than any other group.

    Jlta: I have been discussing some in this blog check it, Crusade, Inquisition and Spain going to Mexico, slavery which were with pleasure pointed to the Catholic church. So if there something else, it would be interesting for me.
    _______________________
    Jlta: Council of Nicea and Matthew, I would check before posting, is it negative?
    _________________
    Korrill: @ Augusto: You said: “A good christian who tries to emulate JC will become a saint.” Really? You mean the JC who said:

    Jlta: Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God the Father said it in public. Why do you undermine His holiness, God’s power, teaching of love, forgiveness. You pick the bad wordings which you do not understand at all and none of the beautiful teaching He gives His people.
    ____________________________
    Korrill: “He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” (Luke 22:36)

    22:36: In contrast to the ministry of the Twelve and of the seventy two during the period of Jesus (Lk 9,3;10,4), in the future period of the church the missionaries MUST BE PREPARED for the opposition they will face in a world hostile to their preaching.

    (Luke 22,38) It is enough!

    The farewell discourse ends abruptly with these words of Jesus spoke to the disciples when they take literally what was intended as figurative about being prepared to face the world’s hostility.

    Jlt: If Jesus meant literally a sword then He would not get upset when the Apostles pointed to Him that there were two swords. It is good to read the Bible in a context and not just take part of it then we will understand better. Jesus also attached the ear of one of the soldier when Peter was using his sword. None whatsoever were killing in His teaching.
    __________________________

    Korrill: “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” (Luke 19:27)

    Jlta: Again in the above you pick two lines, it is a good way to show how ugly His teaching was, but that is for the ignorant.

    The above situation started with God’s given talents to each one of us. And, so if we fail to make good use of the gifts and opportunities we have, we shall be held to account for our failure. At the end of our time on this earth, death and meet our Creator. Lazy mortals, who prefer to rot and rust out in their own misery rather than to wear out in the service of God and their brethren. Of all such the Lord will say to His ministers in the GREAT JUDGEMENT:”Take away even what they have and cast them into the outer darkness.” This include all those who deny Him when He meets them face to face.
    __________________________
    Korril: “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26)

    Jlta: Luke 14,25-33: This collection of sayings, focuses on the total dedication necessary for the disciple of Jesus. No attachment to family or possession can stand in the way of the total commitment demanded of the disciple.
    _______________________-
    Korril: “Think not that I am come to send peace: I came not to send peace but a sword.” (Matthew 10:34) “I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.” (Matthew 10:35-36)

    Jlta: Jesus’ proclamation of the kingdom is a refining and purifying fire. His message that meets with acceptance or rejection will be a source of conflict and dissension even within families.

    Luke 14;26: Hating his father the similar saying in Mt. 1027 The disciple’s family must take second place to the absolute dedication involved in following Jesus
    In these saying Jesus speaks of the SEVERITY and the UMCONDITIONAL NATURE of Christian discipleship. Even above family ties and filial obligations.

  12. Andrew says:

    Jlta: Do you mean the VOC went to Indonesia to convert them or for spices?

    Well, both – like i said, “one of the main objectives”.

  13. Korrill says:

    @ julita: Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God the Father said it in public.

    First off: What is the relevance of me bringing up the issues of the book of Matthew not being written by Matthew and the Council of Nicea? Simple: The Bible was edited during the councils under the command of Constantine. It was during these councils that issues such as the nature of Jesus (is he god, man, or something else), and the bible (What books would be included, what would be considered heretic. BTW, there aren’t only 4 gospels, there used to be more than 20 and not all proclaimed JC as god).

    It was also during this time that pseudepigraphia (did I spell that right?) was a rampant practice. Just to clear it up, pseudepigraphia means the author uses a famous name in order to give credence to his work. Of the many books in the bible, virtually the only positively attributable or authentic (i.e. really written by the person it is named) books are the letters of Paul (not all, however. This is why christianity is called “Paulist Doctrine”).

    Also, many of the events in JC’s “life” are not original. The virgin birth, intelligence, and resurrection have all been themes used in other religions – most notably Mithraism (look it up and you’ll find “the way, the truth, and the light.”)

    And about my quotes being out of context: Priests and pastors use the same in preaching the “good news.” They take one or two lines and proclaim it as truth and deny that it is out of context. Yet if the same system is used against them – they are only too eager to point it out. However, this is not to say that I am guilty of the same. Your explanation is one that has been given by priests to explain the said verses. And while they may be applicable to some of those I posted, they are not true of Luke 14:26 and Matthew 10:34-36. For if your explanation is really the one that was in the mind of Jesus when he said this (if indeed he really said this), then he lied when he said his goal was also the fulfillment of the law. So much for God’s third commandment – Honor thy father and thy mother.

    @ Julita: And btw, if JC just meant that discipleship means total conviction and dedication to the point of leaving your family – why did he have to say that he did not bring peace but discord within the family? Why did he have to say that a man must hate his family in order to be his disciple? Why didn’t he just say a man must be willing to leave his family behind?

    Always be critical of what you hear. Priests and missionaries love to play the meaning game. If it is favorable for them, then a verse is to be taken literally. If it is against them, then the verse must be taken metaphorically – regardless of how these versed may have been uttered or given.

  14. Janma says:

    Makes sense to me.

  15. Parvita says:

    Sputjam, well said. Check my blog http://parvita.wordpress.com/. I wrote (and several people commented) about 5 times praying. And now, not eating and drinking for one month every year. Geeez…Lots of moslem just lost the whole point.

  16. Korrill says:

    @ Janma: You said that just because Hitler killed Jews, that doesn’t mean that he is a christian. Here’s my answer (finally). From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Religious_beliefs

    In a speech Hitler gave in Munich on April 12, 1922, and later published in “My New Order”, he stated:

    ” My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who – God’s truth! – was greatest, not as a sufferer, but as a fighter.
    In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

    Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

    As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…

    And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.

    When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.”

  17. Julita says:

    Jlta: Hitler another koo, koo man is dragged into the blog as the followers of Christ and yet do the opposite to Jesus’ teaching. He can say anything he wants, to get people into his group, he can also say he is a Buddhist, but his action is the importance. “Christianity” is sometimes a nice name to hide behind! And yes, being Christians does not guarantee the person is Christ like, could be the opposite. This is not a surprise, modern time Judas, no? Every where, to me ,religion, club, organization, good family. Though let the people handle their own, if you have nothing to do with it, wash your hands.

  18. Odinius says:

    Korill: Excellent posts, mate.

    Julita: So if…

    “Christianity” is sometimes a nice name to hide behind!

    Then you understand that Christians can do bad things in the name of Christianity.

    That doesn’t mean Christianity did the bad deeds, but just that people used and twisted it to their own ends.

    It’s the same thing extremist Muslims do. Or any extremists, for that matter.

  19. Julita says:

    Korrill: @ Julita: And btw, if JC just meant that discipleship means total conviction and dedication to the point of leaving your family – why did he have to say that he did not bring peace but discord within the family? Why did he have to say that a man must hate his family in order to be his disciple? Why didn’t he just say a man must be willing to leave his family behind?

    Jlta: Jesus came to redeem us; He came to reconcile us with God. He is the Prince of Peace, He taught peace, and love etc. then He said that His teaching would bring separation between those who believe in Him and those who do not believe. God gives man free will; in many situations we see very clear in this blog those who agree and those who contradict. Human, Korrill. Do you also know that Jesus taught in parables? His way of teaching, and you want to change them? They show authenticity. Yes, to make it sound nice as one (you including priests and those who edit the Bible) wish, they could have changed some of the words like ‘swords’ ‘hate’ . They are parables so does it really matter, perhaps to you, not to me the main teaching is more important. .
    _____________________
    Korrill: Always be critical of what you hear. Priests and missionaries love to play the meaning game.

    Jlta: Priests and missionaries love to play The MEANING game. Oh, it shows your dislike and generalizes for ALL of them. NO CREDITS for the majority who are good, died just for that, doing good. You mean I should listen to you/your advice, which seem to dislike/criticize the Faith which I think is the best, instead of to those who are called to preach and dedicated their life for this religion.
    ______________________
    I will come with some others of your long posting. I hope it is worth it.

  20. Korrill says:

    @ Julita: The verses in question are not parables. They are direct quotes. And as for christians not changing the verse or words in the bible – have you ever tried to buy a bible. If you have, let me ask you: how many versions of the bible did you see? Because if I’m not mistaken, there are no less than 3 versions of the bible in existence: (King James version, New International Version, New English Version, etc). Furthermore, each of those versions present a different take on many of the verses of the bible. (BTW, I recommend the the NIV. According to most scholars, it’s the most accurate since it’s the latest).

    The bible has been edited for the last, oh, let’s say, one thousand years. Its verses and words have been altered to suit the needs of the church. Take for example:

    The original verse of Isaiah 45:7 reads:

    I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things.

    It is evident from the original Hebrew verse which uses the word “ra” which directly translates to “evil.”

    Many bible versions translate it as such:

    I make peace and create woe/calamity. I the Lord do all these things.

    Why? Because if God creates both good and evil, then the whole concept of an all good God vs. an all evil devil loses basis.

    Here’s another example: Do you remember how I said that the book of Matthew was not written by Matthew? The reason I brought this up is because the book of Matthew shows the complete crappiness of the practice of midrash, the practice of deriving new meaning from old texts. This was what was used by the early church fathers (Irenaeus, Eusebius, etc) to present the virgin birth mythos and so make the faith acceptable to the greeks and romans (many greeks and romans believed that a virgin birth was a mark of a god taking human form to co-exist with people.) Here’s how it happened:

    In the book of Isaiah (7:14), it states:

    Hinneh ha-almah harah ve-yeldeth ben ve-karath shem-o immanuel.

    which, honestly translated, reads:

    Behold, the young woman HAS (take note) conceived “” and bears a son and calls his name Immanuel.

    The Greek-speaking translators of Hebrew scripture (in 3rd century B.C. Alexandria) slipped up and translated ‘almah‘ (young woman) into the Greek ‘parthenos‘ (virgin). The Hebrew word for virgin would have been ‘betulah.’ The slip did not matter at the time, for in context, Isaiah’s prophesy had been given as reassurance to King Ahaz of Judah that his royal line would survive, despite the ongoing siege of Jerusalem by the Syrians. And it did. In other words, the prophesy had nothing to do with events in Judaea eight hundred years into the future! (Now who’s out of context!)

    Justin ‘Martyr’, a pagan Greek from Palestine, fled to Ephesus at the time of Bar Kochbar’s revolt. He joined the growing Christian community and found himself competing with the priests of Artemis, an eternally virgin goddess. Justin successfully overcame the sentiments of established Christians and had Mary, mother of Jesus, declared a virgin, citing his Greek copy of Isaiah as ‘evidence’ of scriptural prescience. The Greek priest who then forged the ‘Gospel according to St. Matthew’ went one stage further, taking the word ‘harah‘ – in Hebrew a past or perfect tense – and switched it into a future tense to arrive at:

    ‘Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel.’ (Matthew 1.23)

    All this to arrive at the claim that ancient scripture foretold of the arrival of an infant actually called Jesus!

    And as for “noble” priests who spread christianity, here are a few quotes:

    Jerome: “How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived.”

    Eusebius: “We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity.” (Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2)

    John Chrysostom: “Do you see the advantage of deceit? …

    For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind …

    And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived.” (Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1)

    And even then, there were already some who opposed this. The Manichean bishop, Faustus, wrote:

    “Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since – as already it has been often proved – these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them.”

    Of course, he (Faustus) was declared a heretic for saying so.

    ________________

    And finally, the Gospel of Mark is considered by some to be the backbone of christianity (the other gospels were based on it) yet the Codex Bobiensis (the gospel of Mark) does not contain the virgin birth mythos and actually ends at 16:8. It lacks both the ‘short conclusion’ (of Jesus sending followers to ‘east and west’) or the ‘long conclusion’ – the fabulous post-death apparitions, where Jesus promises his disciples that they will be immune to snake bites and poison. These things were added later.

    And to counter the claim that Codex Bobiensis is incomplete and that the latter verses were taken from other manuscripts, here’s my answer: Codex Bobiensis ends with the word “gar,” Over a dozen ancient Greek compositions have survived which end sentences with the Greek word “gar” as Mark 16:8 does.

  21. Sputjam says:

    For those who thinks christians are angels, think again.
    In the dark ages, christians burned people deemed heretics alive in europe. This is a worse death than beheading.
    And if you are considered a witch, you will be tortured until you confess. If confession is obtained, you will be given a quick death. otherwise, it will be a slow death for the poor witch.

    But let us all forget about religion.

    Anybody who believes in the One God is considered a believer. You do not require a holy place to reach out to God, nor speak in a certain language, nor do you need to acquire a religion.

    The history of Mohamed were written by his enemies in the hadith and the sunnah. If muslims followed Mohamed’s way of life by referring to the hadiths and sunnah, they will be doomed in the next life.

    Mankind are not suppose to follow the steps of mohamed or jesus. We are suppose to follow the path that God has chosen.

    Some of the more familiar contents from the koran that have been neglected are the traits that are recommended i.e. be humble and guard our chastity except to those we have rights to, be patient and be charitable. Refrain from acts of lewdness and spread the word that religion and idol worship is a big sin. Why is it a big sin? Because you are not using your common sense and letting priests dominate your thoughts.

    Priest/clerics/monks and popes are not authorise to speak on behalf of God. Only messnges like abraham, Moses, jesus and Mohamed has that authority, and even then, only those words that were transmitted through them by God.

    Notice that the messages in the koran were actually meant for the children of israel. On the Arabs, the koran stated that they were hypocrites steep in disbelief. There was no instruction in the koran for mankind to embrace the islamic religion. The koran merely tell the believers to submit to the guidelines set forth in the koran. And in the koran, there are no instructions for any kind of worship rituals.

    The messages in the koran was similar to that sent through Moses and jesus.
    mankind manipulates these messages and created new religion from the messages. acts of ritual worship seems pleasing to mankind due to whispers from the dejected (iblis).

    God is the sustainer. he does not require any sustenance from us, either in the form of worship or offerings.

    So stop embracing any religion and believe in God alone. And if you have faith and trust in God, then do good deeds and acts of righteousness. Be kind to your parents, charitable to your relatives and those in need and take the challenge (Haj) and spread the word around.

  22. Korrill says:

    @ Sputjam: Nicely put. I couldn’t agree more.

  23. Janma says:

    I really don’t see what need God has for me to believe in Him. I mean if God is really some ominpresent, omnipotent, omniscient judgmental type dude…. I guess I just don’t get it…. not at all.

  24. sonnie says:

    Maybe God wants to make a connection with you Janma, He put the questioning minds in you 🙂

    “Do you feel comfort if you have to sit on the back of the mosques ?”

  25. Janma says:

    If God is everything everyone says He is, then He doesn’t need to make a connection with me, He already has one! And I think we all have a questioning mind… just some of us are not so easily satisfied with the answers. Or maybe don’t even want an answer.

    About women in mosques? Of course not letting them in is rubbish… they need to get over themselves… so much bloody hoo haa…. so afraid of women… can’t control themselves, don’t want to control themselves, feel as though we should accomodate their bestial tendencies instead of themselves taking responsibility for their own morality!!! Blahdiblahdi blah blah… it’s all been said before… we all know it’s wrong…. it’s not even worth bashing my head on the floor for.

  26. Augusto says:

    Dear Odinius,

    If you don’t understand how central Christianity-and Christianization-was to the colonial project from Columbus to decolonialization, they you just haven’t read anything on the subject. I suggest you go to your local library and start getting into it. If possible, find primary documents. Christianizing the “heathens” provided the moral justification for what was otherwise a rape and pillage enterprise. Even the Dutch administration in Indonesia viewed itself as a rational and Christian regime.

    As a matter of fact Christians are still sending their missionaries to remote places nowadays. Remember those Korean missionaries, where two of them were killed by the jihadists? You may be right when the European colonialised a territory the Christian missionaries tried to spread Christianity to the local people. And what is the outcome? We have many good Christian schools, beautiful (if not burnt down yet like the Carmel church) churches, and good kaffir hospitals and kaffir entertainment and modern way of living (unislamic way). Or may be you would prefer if we were invaded by moh’s army? You and me, all of us here will look and behave just like our beloved osama (watch his latest video, he look just like moh pbuh). Another advantage is we can have four very young wives and unlimited concubines. And we get to subjugate the kuffar too, how fun right? And our muslim sis will all look like burqa queen, very sexy!

    Frankly, I’m sick of all the ridiculous Islam bashing on this site. TBH, the people who have demonstrated themselves to be the least tolerant on here are those supposedly are so opposed to Islamic intolerance. Think about it. It’s intellectually lazy and just a bit hypocritical.

    Show me the ridiculous islam bashing I made. Do you thing the kuffar here are doing it for fun? Do you think we have so much time just to do that. Do you know what will happen if we do this in public? What is your defninition of tolerant anyway? Is telling the kuffat to just tolerate when they are being persecuted and subjugated (dhimmitude) your definition of tolerant? Your muslim mindset of tolerant is very different from the kuffar, and I know that. Good muslims impose sharia whenever and wherever possible without considering the faith of kuffat, just like aceh and under muslim land. To good muslims kuffar should understand tolerate it or as you said “move somewhere”.

    Gee guys”¦seriously, it’s not the religion, it’s the followers. In the end we are ALL human, of course we make sins. Nobody is perfect. Saying [insert religion here] has more sin than others is a sinful act in itself. Only God can judge. So why can’t we just respect each other? Who cares whose book is better, they all could have been written by someone at the right time and the right era! Arguing about religion will never give human a win win situation. Enjoy life!

    Oh my! Your good muslim mindset is really taking its toll now. I can show hundreds of cruel and intolerant verses from the Koran to prove what the jihadists are doing are sanction by the teaching. Jihadist are doing exactly what is instructed by moh. I know you rather deny it and bury your head in the sand deeper now. That is what muslims always do when faced with the facts. I don’t care what any one worship as long as they don’t subjugate or dhimmitude me for not obeying them! Now look at what good muslims/pious are doing right now during this Ramadan month. They are forcing kuffar to respect them, go to acheh eat and smoke in public and see what you get. Or maybe you want to go to Saudi Arabia to drink some cold beer infront of the mosque to prove it. Muslims are safe when they live in kaffir land and among them, look how they flocked in millions to kaffir land to take full advantage of democracy and govt support(funding) education and all that. What do they give in return? They produce suicide bombers and demand sharia law, that is what islam is about.

    If someone can’t stand anyone being a Muslim, then they should go move somewhere where there aren’t any. Maybe the intolerant Muslims can move there with them too. Then the rest of us can live in peace.

    You can be anything you want I don’t care. As long as you don’t do this to me:

    Quran 002.193
    YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
    PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
    SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

    And:

    009.029
    YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
    PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
    SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

    There are soo many verses and ahadith like that! Now I wonder what is your def of “peace”? Islamic peace? That graveyard peace?

    Btw who are the intolerant muslims? Are they the good muslims? Mullahs, imams all those you listen and suppose to obey when they preach every friday?

  27. Augusto says:

    Dear Korril,
    You confessed:

    I’m not muslim. I used to be a christian. I was born as one and worshipped as one until the day I finally thought to seek the truth. I have lived with the christian dogmas all my life. I believe I can safely say that I know more about it than most of you here.

    How touching. You were blessed when you were born as a Christian up until the day you finally thought to seek the truth and forget all the dogmas and decided to become a Christian apostate. Now you want to tell the whole world of your apostasy and denounce the teaching of Christ and expose all the truth. Congratulation! You have done it. Now if you are famous enough you might want to declare your apostasy on ty or burn some cross together with the bible in public. Do you know what you will get for that? All the mullahs and imams with hail and glorify you as a hero and give you some dakwa to convert you to islam. You should consider their offer, easy, just mention the shahada and voila! You have become a muslimah, you are now blessed by allah.
    Now say if you regret being a muslimah some day and want to become an atheist and decided to go public just like when you were a Christian. What do you think will happen to you? All the muslims will track you down and issue some killing fatwas and if you are famous gal there would be a price for your head, but then you still have the luxury to flea to some kaffir land and enjoy freedom of religion just like the millions of muslims in uk etc are doing today preaching hatred against the kuffar in their mosques.

    Okay, let’s see what happened to the pedo priests. They were all arrested and punished (well, maybe not all). But consider the fact: those priests were arrested not because of any action by the church. All of them were arrested after their victims regained their repressed memories and filed charges. In all cases, the church sought to cover-up each and ever incident. They sent errant priests to retreats and “spiritual” treatments then relocated them. In every situation, the pedo priests just returned to their old habits and victimized children again. Go to http://www.crimelibrary.com and look for Fr. Porter and Fr. Geogh

    Well, if you said all that is true then we should make the church responsible for it and lock all those priests involved. But since you are very good in Christianity, can I ask you if pedophilia is perform by jc and sanction in the bible? Please give me the source.

    On another point: what is the difference between islam and christianity that a pedophile priest can be punished yet a pedophile imam cannot? In my opinion, it’s simple: christianity fell from grace. The crimes and sins of the church at the height of its power caused the people to question its authority. The people had enough of all the senseless killings and persecutions, and so the church lost authority. They began to turn to other sources of truth such as science and reality. This became known as the Enlightenment – the rise of reason after the christian dark-ages.

    They both will be punished according to secular man-made law. But let see what Islamic(sharia) law says about pedophilia moh pbuh:
    065.004 (about waiting period after divorce for remarriage)
    SHAKIR: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses (yet);

    Here is a hadith which says Mohammed followed quran by marrying Ayesha at age six.

    Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
    Narrated ‘Aisha:
    that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. (consummation was postponed for three years at the request of girl’s father Abu Bakr)
    Good the Christian admit their wrong doing, reformed it and survive without violence. But can that happen to islam which every muslim believe that quran was created by almighty allah. If you modify anything in that book islam will crumble. Because why reformed, if it is the best book from allah pbuh.

    And don’t try to fool yourself into the image of an all-pure christianity. Christianity still has a lot of crackpots who killed in the name of God. Look up Charles Manson, Ruben Ecleo, Jim Jones, and David Koresh.

    All those people are cult leaders and they deserve punishment. If moh were still alive today we will do the same to him too. Islam is a killing cult. Define a cult, see if islam and moh fit in?
    These are the attributes of a cult.:

    1. A leader (dead or alive) who is considered absolutely infallible.
    2.Proscribed food and dress. Everyone must adhere to the standard.
    3.Repetitive and frequent sessions to reinforce behaviour.
    4.Violent and often brutal treatment of backsliders or people that wish to leave.
    5.A cult tells you what God is like. No individual contact with God.
    6.Regulation of every aspect of the day. From dawn to dusk.
    7.The leader often breaks his own rules set for the others.
    8.Outsiders are demonised and cult members are discouraged from contact or friendship with people outside the cult.
    9.Cults are never tolerant.
    10.Obsessive ways of doing things are a hallmark of a cult.
    11.Emulation of the leader.
    12.Absolute certainty that they are right. No doubt is allowed or encouraged.

    Now apply the above cultic traits with Islam.

    1. Mohammed was beyond criticism. Even when he took a six year old girl as a wife and had sex with her at nine years old, as soon as he could.
    2.Food and dress is rigorously regulated. It is a form of control to insist that followers can only eat this or at certain times and must dress a certain way.
    3.The daily regime of stopping work, whatever to bow to Mecca five times and say repetitive prayers is reinforcing behaviour.
    4.People who leave islam are supposed to be killed. People who transgress Islamic rules about showing a female arm or ankle are whipped in the street as the Taliban did and Saudi religious police still do.
    5.No muslims are allowed to talk to God themselves. They are told how God is. Only the top guy is allowed to have had divine contact and they then limit God’s ability to talk to anyone else.
    6.The whole day is full of prayers and all behaviour from eating to washing to going to the toilet has rules.
    7.Mohammed frequently broke his own rules saying it was okay for him. Forinstance, he said no man can have more than four wives but he himself had eleven.
    8.The Koran is full of exhortations like “show harshness to unbelievers” or to “take not Jews or Christians for friends”.
    9.The barbarity of Islamic terrorists is obvious.
    10.Saying “peace be upon him” every time they mention muhammed’s name is an example of cultic obsession.
    11. Emulation of muhammed extends to dressing, defacating and sleeping as they think he did. Muhammed didn’t use chairs, so many muslims sit on the floor to eat. Of course, this is all selective snobbery. Mohammed didn’t read, didn’t drive a car or use a mobile phone too but no-one seems keen to copy this.
    12.There is no encouragement of questioning or consideration in islam. Religions usually have a path of learning and being wrong and maturity. Even Jesus had doubts. Muslims aren’t allowed to entertain “what if” notions.

    One of the worst things though about a cult, is that it limits original thinking. This is why the muslims have never invented anything.

  28. Hassan says:

    Ahh, Augusto, the rampant bigot is at it again. Even when people were talking about another subject (Christianity) you always have to revert it to the standard topic: how bad Islam is. I think you’re mistaken, this is not faithfreedom.org, the place where religious trolls like you usually hang out. Indonesiamatters.com was supposed to be a blog about Indonesia, not about Islam and why it must be evil.

    That’s why I have a certain reservation and regret about this blog. If this is suppose to be a blog that discusses matters regarding Indonesia, then why does it always have anti-Islamic sentiments within it? Patung, have you ever considered to change the name to http://www.antiislaminindonesia.com or http://www.antiislamicmatters.com? You know, so people will not be mislead by the name and all.

    And please, don’t say “If you don’t like it, then why don’t you just leave?”. The thing is, I loved the news about Indonesia in this blog, but it’s rather irritating to have your faith insulted every other time. Wouldn’t you feel the same way if yours were constantly harassed by ignorant people?

    Augusto: Your rantings are not original. I bet you copy pasted the whole lot. It was just some standard Islam bashing rhetorics which can be found in any anti-Islam websites and had been refuted and was proven incorrect by Muslims over and over again.

    You can’t resist to enter the Aisha debacle, can you? Now because you’re an extreme person, I’ll give you an extreme answer on this link:

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm

    You can argue your mouth off on the arguments given on the link above. What, you’re not up to it?

    You and me, all of us here will look and behave just like our beloved osama (watch his latest video, he look just like moh pbuh)

    Actually, Osama looks like yourself, a radical. Why don’t you try looking at yourself in the mirror. The difference is, while you’re a petty and small time one, he is a radical with means, which the US had in part provided to him during the Soviet occupation in Afghanistan a while back. BTW, how can Osama look like Muhammad (pbuh) if the drawings that depicted him was generally drawn by non Muslims and Islam haters as Muslims are not allowed to draw his pictures?

    These are the attributes of a cult

    How about if you provide us with the attributes of a bigot/radical/extremist? I bet you will fit quite nicely on those lists.

  29. dewaratugedeanom says:

    Hassan said

    I think you’re mistaken, this is not faithfreedom.org, the place where religious trolls like you usually hang out. Indonesiamatters.com was supposed to be a blog about Indonesia, not about Islam and why it must be evil.

    Maybe Hassan should better read the contents of the ‘About’ tag of Indonesia Matters. If Hassan doesn’t like it he should go somewhere else.
    You see Hassan, this is the Internet, where speech is still free, wether muslims like you like it or not.

  30. Korrill says:

    @ augusto: Frankly, I do not consider being born as a christian as being blessed. Neither is being born under any religious system. And tell me, when did I ever say I wanted to be a muslim?

    And to answer some of your arguments:

    1. I never said that the bible sanctioned pedophilia. I just said that the church never took any action to protect the people from errant priests. THAT is what makes them (the church LEADERS) responsible. You’re reading too deep between the lines you’re actually reading things that are not there to begin with.

    2. Christians never admitted their wrongdoings. Pope John Paul II tried but his apology was so vague no one can be sure what he’s apologizing for. The churches involved in the pedophilia cases never apologized either. They(1) denied the charges initially, (2) distanced themselves from the accused when it was no longer possible to cover-up the crime, and (3) paid the plaintiffs so they would shut up and never talk about the case again.

    Furthermore, the rebuttal you used (divorce waiting period, menstruation, and under-age marriage) do not address the issue I brought up about christianity’s fall from grace. Far from it, they are also vastly different from pedophilia. I believe that there is a world of difference between CONSUMATING a marriage with a 9 year old who sees you as her husband as compared to forcefully having sex with a child who sees you as her guardian.

    3. With regards to your classification of a cult:

    1. The early church leaders passed the creed of papal infallibility. This creed professed that the pope was infallible. This tradition was only broken recently by the act of Pope John Paul II (sort of).
    2. All right, there is that. Islam is strict with regards to that one.
    3. Have you ever attended a mass for 15 years? I tell you, every day of the year has its prescribed sermon and celebration. Also, the mass format has not changed in the last 500 years.
    4. Guess what – christians consider back-sliders and un-believers to be damned.
    5. What do you think the priests do? This is a basic tenet of christianity – that only through the aid of the church can one communicate with God properly.
    6. No argument.
    7. Try looking up Pope Alexander VI. He’s a good start.
    8. Same.
    9. Christianity may be tolerant, but it can sure discriminate masterfully.
    10. Christians love to use the bible to ‘guide’ them in their everyday lives. They just love oicking out quotes for this and that.
    11. Ever heard of the expression: “What would Jesus do?” Christians love it.
    12. Refers to answer to point one – the concept of infallibility. Furthermore, christianity is also plagued with the virtues of self-righteousness and intolerance – the belief that because we are right, every one else must be wrong.

    And christians don’t like to be questioned about their faith or about tenets in the bible. They retaliate with jeers and insults – just like what you are doing now.

Comment on “Women in Mosques”.

RSS
RSS feed
Email

Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-20
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact