52 Comments on “Mixed Religion Marriages”
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Hassan Says:
September 9th, 2007 at 10:14 pmdewaratugedeanom:
Why should we respect Islam when the Qur’an and hadith are full of disrespect and disdain for the kafir?
First of all we must understand the reason for such wording in the Quran. It is a common knowledge that the Judeo-Christian-Islamic One True God doesn’t like His creations to worship anything other than Him, to worship others along with Him, or to set up rivals with (or partners to) Him. Try to at least imagine to be in His position, He created these thinking but otherwise insignificant beings, took care of them, gave them everything they needed to survive (and prosper), then they worship these false gods, or worship Him but planted the wrong image about Him on their minds.
If our God doesn’t like idolaters, pagans, and kaffir then that’s His right and prerogative. Can we object to what He likes and dislikes? If God then sends His messages through His Holy Scriptures that tells us He dislikes certain things, are we in a position to scrutinize His will? This is a matter of faith, I’m not expecting you to understand this, but tolerance is in order to preserve harmony between the followers of the different faiths in Indonesia.
What I understand from your answer is that it is just a covered threat about a 160 million or so Muslims outnumbering the other faiths. I assure you that I’m not impressed by numbers. For me quality comes first.
On the contrary, it wasn’t a threat. I reassure you I’m not trying to impress you with numbers. I said that to stimulate your mind and heart of what might happen if we use hatred in our dealings with other faiths, but I didn’t seem to succeed in doing so. Hate vs hate, who will prevail? Everyone will be the looser, that’s for sure.
The core of my question however you did not touch. The hatred comes from Islam in the first place, not from the other faiths.
That’s a subjective matter of opinion. In my opinion, Islam never spread hatred. Show me any verse in the Quran that says we must destroy any other religions, or specifically target the followers of Christianity, Buddhism, or Hinduism to be killed. On a lighter note, in our discussion, all the hatred doesn’t seem to came from the so called hateful Muslim, but came from dewaratugedeanom and whatever religion he embraced. We are what we do, right?
I never heard or saw a Christian, Hindu or Buddhist blowing himself up shouting Allahu Akbar.
Correction, in WWII certain Shintos and Buddhists shouts ‘Banzai!’ before they blow themselves up, it’s called a kamikaze attack. Jokes aside, obviously, those Muslims who blew themselves up in suicide attacks did those for political reasons, not religious ones. Why was it so difficult for you to differentiate their real intentions?
Palestinians who bombed Tel Aviv did those things to try to liberate their country from the Israeli occupation or to take revenge for what the Israeli did in the past, and NOT to destroy Judaism. Iraqis did that to try to make the Americans to leave their country or make the Americans pay for what they did, and NOT to destroy Christianity. Talibans did that for the same reasons, but with the addition of NATO forces besides the Americans.
Conclusion, NONE of them did it for the glory of their religion. It was not ordained nor approved by the religion, nor prescribed in the Quran or Hadith. Looks like someone likes to play the blame game.
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Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
September 9th, 2007 at 10:58 pmDear ignorant dewaratugedeanom,
Perhap what Hassan meant was the rape of Chinese women by the muslim mobs to the cries of ‘Allahu Akhbar’ during the 1998 riot was directed at the Jews. The 2005 muslims mob at Poso chanting ‘Allahu Akhbar’ was just a sing-along lullaby. Islam is the religion of peace.
Repent.
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Odinius Says:
September 10th, 2007 at 7:51 amHassan said:
Palestinians who bombed Tel Aviv did those things to try to liberate their country from the Israeli occupation or to take revenge for what the Israeli did in the past, and NOT to destroy Judaism. Iraqis did that to try to make the Americans to leave their country or make the Americans pay for what they did, and NOT to destroy Christianity. Talibans did that for the same reasons, but with the addition of NATO forces besides the Americans.
There’s a big difference between those who commit violence because they are influenced by their understanding of religious belief (see: jihad) and those who commit violence because of other reasons but this happens to fall along religious lines (see: sectarian violence).
While I would agree that Palestinian violence against Israelis is overwhelmingly political, as you claim, so is Israeli violence against Palestinians. But for some extremists on both sides, it derives from religious “mandates” about controlling territory in Israel/Palestine. Little of the violence in Iraq is actually against Americans. Most is between Shia and Sunni. Of all the violence in Iraq, much of it is sectarian, though some (such as bombing Shia mosques) is clearly religious. In all these examples, though, religiousmotivations to violence are secondary to political ones.
The Taliban, though, formed in the 1990s as a religious organization of students that believed it was its religious duty to spread, by warfare, its understanding of what an Islamic state should look like. Thus, their violence is absolutely, fundamentally religious in nature, while it is also political.
Muslims, of course, are not the only ones who commit religious violence. Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, etc. also do it in other places in the world. It’s not a scripture problem, it’s a people problem.
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dewaratugedeanom Says:
September 10th, 2007 at 7:34 pmHassan said
That’s a subjective matter of opinion. In my opinion, Islam never spread hatred. Show me any verse in the Quran that says we must destroy any other religions, or specifically target the followers of Christianity, Buddhism, or Hinduism to be killed. On a lighter note, in our discussion, all the hatred doesn’t seem to came from the so called hateful Muslim, but came from dewaratugedeanom and whatever religion he embraced. We are what we do, right?
Speaking of TOLERANCE
Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”
Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low.” [Another translation says:] “pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection.”
Qur’an 40:70 “Those who deny the Book and what We have sent down with Our Apostles will soon come to have iron collars and chains around their necks; they will be dragged through boiling water and then trust into the Fire to be burnt.”
Qur’an 9:111 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”Now tell me, who is spreading hate?
But of course, all these verses are taken out of context… And the translation might not reflect exactly the original meaning… And in Arab it sounds so much better… Etcetera, etcetera. We all have heard this before.
When pointing out the reality behind other people’s believes or hypothesis is called spreading hate, than so be it. If your faith is that strong as you pretend it to be you wouldn’t even bother to defend it, unless it’s just a mask to hide a different agenda.Jokes aside, obviously, those Muslims who blew themselves up in suicide attacks did those for political reasons, not religious ones. Why was it so difficult for you to differentiate their real intentions?
I thought sharia doesn’t make a distinction between politics and religion. Isn’t it Dar Al Islam versus Dar Al Harb? Correct me if I’m wrong.
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September 11th, 2007 at 7:06 pmAluang Anak Bawang:
Perhap what Hassan meant was the rape of Chinese women by the muslim mobs to the cries of ‘Allahu Akhbar’ during the 1998 riot was directed at the Jews. The 2005 muslims mob at Poso chanting ‘Allahu Akhbar’ was just a sing-along lullaby.
The rape of Chinese women while chanting ‘God is great!’ doesn’t make any religious sense. If you heard on the news that some tourist raped Indonesian women while chanting “in the name of the father, son, and the holy ghost” your logic will tell you there’s something wrong with the picture.
Obviously those who cried ‘Allahu Akbar’ during the 1998 riot did those things either trying to: A) Justify their barbaric acts and guise them under religious pretenses. B) Deliberately trying to defame Islam and Muslims. C) Trying to incite inter-religious hatred and further acts of violence, the same way they had done successfully in Poso.
Why Aluang? Because there’s no such teaching in Islam that tells Muslims to chant ‘Allahu Akbar’ before raping anyone else, capiche? And some of you are just too ignorant to fall for such sectarian violence incitement acts.
As for Poso, we all knew who started it, didn’t we? And besides, both parties are equally guilty of horrendous acts of violence. If the Muslim mob chanted ‘Allahu Akbar’ then the heavily (foreign) armed Christian mob must’ve chanted ‘haleluya’ or whatever religious call they might use.
Instead of keep throwing weak and dubious arguments around, why don’t you just focus on your ‘sesajen’ giving ceremonies or your ‘bertapa’ on secluded places that might give you a better chance of enlightenment, although I doubt it.
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September 11th, 2007 at 7:09 pmdewaratugedeanom: You’re bunching up verses that were addressed to Muslims on Muhammad’s (pbuh) time, verses that were addressed to Muslims of all time but missed the real meaning and context, and verses regarding what will happen on Judgment Day to make your point. It looks like you’re not much of a Qur’an expert, are you? Or was it intentional to suit your agendas?
Anyway, I think we both know that the true meanings of those verses, as some Muslims on other forums must’ve pointed them out to you (and I wont bother to explain to you again), but yet you still use them to suit your arguments (which reminded me of certain politicians in our country). Perhaps you had been too busy posting on forums such as faithfreedom.org to notice that.
When pointing out the reality behind other people’s believes or hypothesis is called spreading hate, than so be it.
No, spreading hate is to dish out false informations or informations based on false understanding of certain matters in order to make other people from different faith and beliefs hate one another. You’re trying to make Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. in Indonesia and worldwide hate Islam and Muslims, aren’t you? That means you’re trying to pit the followers of certain religion(s) against the followers of another religion(s). Do you want inter-religious hatred to spread in Indonesia? Was that not an act of spreading hatred? One thing for sure, you’re not trying to spread peace and harmony among religious followers.
If your faith is that strong as you pretend it to be you wouldn’t even bother to defend it, unless it’s just a mask to hide a different agenda.
An insult to one’s faith is an insult of one’s own being. Religion is a part of what makes a person’s identity, and the insult to the thing that a person revere is a direct affront to that person. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to prove that sentiment, just go inside a Mosque, Church, Synagogue or Vihara then start insulting the particular religion in front of the congregation to receive the answer. That doesn’t mean they’re masking a ‘different agenda’, that simply means they’re insulted by your vulgar rudeness.
As for me, my reaction will be the same as those normal people I pictured above. If I don’t like my religion being insulted and slandered, that’s normal. I don’t think it’s me who might mask a hidden agenda, I think you are the one who had a ‘different agenda’. Perhaps you would like the freedom to insult other religions and get away with it.
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September 11th, 2007 at 10:02 pmHassan said
You’re bunching up verses that were addressed to Muslims on Muhammad’s (pbuh) time, verses that were addressed to Muslims of all time but missed the real meaning and context, and verses regarding what will happen on Judgment Day to make your point.
If you would have said “only addressed to and for Arabs in Muhammad’s time ” the verses might have had some relevance. But if Islam is meant to be a religion for all people of all times then those so-called ‘revelations’ are not only misleading but also understood as provocations. Unless of course the Arabs were the chosen people and meant to become the rulers of the world. The Jews, who also consider themselves a chosen people, at least don’t have the pretention to try to convert the world and make everybody submit or pay jizya tax.
You’re trying to make Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. in Indonesia and worldwide hate Islam and Muslims, aren’t you? That means you’re trying to pit the followers of certain religion(s) against the followers of another religion(s). Do you want inter-religious hatred to spread in Indonesia? Was that not an act of spreading hatred? One thing for sure, you’re not trying to spread peace and harmony among religious followers.
You better say that to your brothers Amrozi, Imron, Samudra dkk. who are still alive and kicking and considered hero’s by many followers of your faith.
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September 11th, 2007 at 10:25 pmBy the grace of Allah Subhana Wata’ala, the most merciful, most compassionate.
Perhap it is high time that mas Hassan should starts conversing or debate with clerics accused of defaming the good name of Islam.
Salam.
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September 12th, 2007 at 6:45 pmTo finish my last post from yesterday:
Hassan said
It looks like you’re not much of a Qur’an expert, are you? Or was it intentional to suit your agendas?
A koranic navel-gazer I may not be but I still know the facts of history.
An insult to one’s faith is an insult of one’s own being. Religion is a part of what makes a person’s identity, and the insult to the thing that a person revere is a direct affront to that person.
Everyday and everywhere people convert from one religion to another, even lose their religion, without losing their identity. Many start to hate the religion they grew up with because they realized it was a lie and a scam. Others even discovered their real identity after conversion. We had examples here in Indonesia Matters. Remember Ismail.
I don’t think it’s me who might mask a hidden agenda, I think you are the one who had a ‘different agenda’. Perhaps you would like the freedom to insult other religions and get away with it.
I do not have a hidden agenda. I only want to expose the scam of Islam and its so-called prophet. To put it quite frankly: Islam has to go. At least from where I live to begin with.
Correction, in WWII certain Shintos and Buddhists shouts ‘Banzai!’ before they blow themselves up, it’s called a kamikaze attack.
Then the Yankees dropped ‘Little Boy’ and ‘Fat Man’ and a few days later the war was over. No more Banzai, only Bonsai. Capiche?
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September 13th, 2007 at 12:56 amdewaratugedeanom said:
I only want to expose the scam of Islam and its so-called prophet. To put it quite frankly: Islam has to go. At least from where I live to begin with.
And with those words, he became the very thing he claimed to despise…
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Sputjam Says:
September 14th, 2007 at 9:37 amThis for dewaratugedeanom.
You can disregard the koran if you want. For it is only a guide book. But let us focus on some violent phrases which I think you may have misquoted. The following example is for you to judge -This is a translation of the koran by Yusof Ali:-
190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
And this is another version by Aidid Safar:-
The Quran encourages promoting its values and recipients are duty bound to take the challenge to fight against falsehood.
2:190 You shall confront in the path of God against those who confront against you – and there shall be no aggression. Indeed God – He dislikes those who are aggressive.
2:191 And you shall confront them wherever you are confronted – and expel them from wherever they expel you – and slandering is worse than fighting. And do not confront them by the sanctioned consented decrees – unless they confront you in it. Therefore, when they confront you – you must confront them. That would be the just response for those who do not trust.
2:192 Thus – if they refrain – then, God is forgiver – merciful.
2:193 And you must confront them until there is no more slandering. And the orderly way of life is for God alone. Therefore if they refrain – thus there shall be no more hostility – except over those who are unjust.These are some of the examples of the verses in the koran that was wrongly translated in order to promote an ancient arab religion.
The truth is that the koran does not promote any religion and does not contain any ritual worship.
Religion (idol worship) in itself is sinful. Any religion. The priest and clerics will lead you away from God’s way of life.
You do not require to be in any religion to call to God, or be in a special temple or mosque, nor face in a certain direction. Anyone can make a call to God in any language.
But if insist in going to religious places, or asking priests and clerics for assistance, then you do not have faith. It is as simple as that. -
September 14th, 2007 at 11:00 pmOdinius said
And with those words, he became the very thing he claimed to despise”¦
So what do you propose? To sit on the fence with the moderates and watch violence and intolerance take over? Or just turn the other cheek?
Sputjam said
You can disregard the koran if you want. For it is only a guide book. But let us focus on some violent phrases which I think you may have misquoted.
If it is a guide book then it is a very badly written one. Everybody seems to have his own interpretation, from Osama Bin Laden to Gus Dur, from Hassan to Muhammad Khafi, from Cukurungan to Sputjam.
And we kaffir are catched in the middle. -
September 15th, 2007 at 12:01 amdewaratugedeanom said:
So what do you propose? To sit on the fence with the moderates and watch violence and intolerance take over? Or just turn the other cheek?
Ever heard the phrase “an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind?”
I live in a country where about 20% of the population are intolerant christians. every summer i spend in a country where about 20% of the country are intolerant muslims. I fail to see much difference, aside from a distinct lack of tolerance and mutual respect.
In fact, the intolerant people of the world have so much in common, I wish they’d just go live in Antarctica or somewhere far off from the rest of us, who can live together quite nicely, thank you. There they can fight each other to their hearts content.
I may not agree with his creationism and religious certainty, but Hassan is undoubtedly right that tolerance and mutual respect are the only way forward…
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September 15th, 2007 at 12:15 amRe dewaratugedeanom’s,
So what do you propose? To sit on the fence with the moderates and watch violence and intolerance take over? Or just turn the other cheek?
Fear not. All kaffirs are protected by the Shariah.
If it is a guide book then it is a very badly written one. Everybody seems to have his own interpretation, from Osama Bin Laden to Gus Dur, from Hassan to Muhammad Khafi, from Cukurungan to Sputjam.
And we kaffir are catched in the middle.We have two distinct group there: the Bad and Good muslims.
The Bad ones are Gus Dur, Mas Khafi and Sputjam. They are the harbingers of tsunamis and earthquakes for misinterpreting the Quran.The Good ones are Osama Bin Laden and Hassan. Usually they are of Middle Eastern stocks. Tag along is Sheikh Cuk but I am hopeful he will jump ship as he is tanah darah Indonesia.
Re Odinius’s
I live in a country where about 20% of the population are intolerant christians. every summer i spend in a country where about 20% of the country are intolerant muslims. I fail to see much difference, aside from a distinct lack of tolerance and mutual respect.
Wait till you go to heaven. The paradise is teemed with religious people as both Islam and Christianity promised heaven.
Salam.
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September 15th, 2007 at 3:30 pmOdinius
Ever heard the phrase “an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind?”
I was talking about Islam, not about those who had to grow up in it.
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September 15th, 2007 at 5:22 pmdewaratugedeanom:
I do not have a hidden agenda. I only want to expose the scam of Islam and its so-called prophet
If Islam was as bad as what you said it was, I don’t think you’ll need to expose anything about Islam. Because people are generally intelligent, means that they can differentiate the right from the wrong. They don’t need you to tell them what is good and what is evil, they’ll stay clear off Islam the moment that they feel Islam’s evil. The way you have to resort to slander in order to defame Islam only proved Islam’s decent nature and righteous values, and your own moral flaws.
You don’t see Muslims slandering other religions, do you? Besides, who elected you as the people’s “savior” anyway?
I think you’ve been hanging around in faithfreedom.org too much, and their manifesto is starting to affect your behavior. You know what? I believe you can consider yourself as a genuine radical in whatever religion you’re currently embracing.
To put it quite frankly: Islam has to go
Ahmadinejad said Israel should be wiped off the map and the West calls him as a terrorist. You wanted to get rid of one of the world’s major religion and millions of it’s followers, so that makes you what? A master terrorist? Faithfreedom.org had clearly radicalized you.
We had examples here in Indonesia Matters. Remember Ismail.
Ismail was just a standard hateful bigot. I had previous encounters with him, and I can tell you that he was like a broken record who will talk about the same things over and over again with no particular substantiation. An apostate who likes to badmouth his previous religion is quite common in any religion, nothing special about that. It’s a pity you have to idolize someone like Ismail. Hadn’t Odinius told you that tolerance and mutual respect is the only way forward”¦ for Indonesia and humanity as a whole.
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September 16th, 2007 at 3:42 pmHassan
You don’t see Muslims slandering other religions, do you?
Muslims don’t have to slander other religions. The Qur’an already does it for them.
Besides, you accused me of putting koranic verses out of context, but you are doing just the same with my posts.
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September 19th, 2007 at 2:18 pmdewaratugedeanom: Which part of your posts had I placed out of context? Can you elaborate on that please?
Muslims don’t have to slander other religions. The Qur’an already does it for them.
That is a subjective matter, isn’t it? Depends on how you approach the Quranic verses, whether with compassion and humility, or with hatred and suspicion. Clearly you seemed to use the hatred and suspicion approach.
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Tuan Says:
October 21st, 2007 at 12:35 pmOh MUI when will you finally become SECURE in your faith? Mixed marriages don’t mean people turn away from a religion, look at the USA, more mixed marriages than anywhere else in the world, yet it has grown more Christian in the past few decades, that people should be able to marry whoever they want goes without saying.
As someone who was born and raised here in the US. I would say Christianity is losing some ground in the US. Islam is slowly becoming the second largest faith in the USA with a third of it being converts (or reverts). There are some frightened individuals in the US particularly some government officials who wants to maintain a Caucasian Christian US identity (A large migration of Hispanics and growing number of Muslims). Though I think their fears are invalid since Muslims just want to live peacefully here in the US and not in countries where corruption is rampant.
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October 21st, 2007 at 3:42 pmTuan said
As someone who was born and raised here in the US. I would say Christianity is losing some ground in the US. Islam is slowly becoming the second largest faith in the USA with a third of it being converts (or reverts).
“Asyhadu an la ila ha illalah waasyhadu anna Muhammadar rasulullah.” (I witness there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prohet)
Hurray! One Muslim more. This brings the total number of believers to 1.327.681.574 *.
* dead Muslims and apostates included -
lucia Says:
April 25th, 2008 at 11:11 amUntil Indonesia is peacefully and successfully ruled by a non-Muslim person and not dominated by Muslim parliament, all this tolerance talk is absolutely meaningless.
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qingqing Says:
November 22nd, 2008 at 11:14 pmMy boyfriend is a Muslim, I am christian, in our country,they not allow the mixed-marriage,so that we plan get married in Indonesia? does it work?
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