Learning Islam

Aug 7th, 2007, in IM Posts, by

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306 Comments on “Learning Islam”

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  1. avatar Sputjam says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 10:25 am

    I think, we can all conclude that God, The Almighty, The Judge, will decide our fate in the next life.

    Dawud said -

    The Qur’an commands us to worship Allaah through prayer, fasting, charity etc
    Those who thinks that God need to be worshipped are wasting their time, as God is free of all wants.

    We are commanded to follow the straight path, which are clearly mentioned in the koran.

    Say: ‘come let me recite to you what your Lord Has forbade for you:

    that you should not set-up anything with Him.

    And be kind to your parents;

    and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them;

    and do not come near evil, what is openly of it, or secretly;

    and do not kill the soul which GOD Has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend’.

    ‘And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reached his maturity;

    and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except by what it can bear.

    And if you speak then be just even if against a relative;

    and with pledges made to GOD you shall observe. This He Has enjoined you that you may remember’.

    And this is *My path, a Straight One, so you shall follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you to that you may be righteous.” (6:151-153)

    If God had wanted to be worshipped, the worshp ritual would have been stated clearly in the koran. This will include other ritual such as Haj and fasting. The fact that they are mentioned sporadically means we must be wary of such verses.

    My conclusion on the use of hadith and sunnah is that it diverts the person from the truth in the koran. The more a person indulge in the sunnah and hadiths, the further that person strays away from the truth. One of the reason why so much mayhem and havoc is done by those who profess the muslim religion – They have abandoned the koran and embrace the hadith and sunnah.

    And remember – all religion promotes idol worship. The messages in the koran warns mankind on any form of idol worship.

    You can beleive in God without being enslaved in religion. For God;s system does not require religion.

    “Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission/Islam as the SYSTEM for you”¦” (Quran 5:3)

    Peace !

  2. avatar Anti Middleast says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

    I was born and raised catholic. from the 1960′s in Phalidephia…In the 90′s when I startet to read about priest raping young boys, I scracthed my head and said what in am I into..So, I moved to Virginia and I converted to Baptist..Then, I went to the church and listened to some good soul music..I liked it but at the end of the service, they came around with a tray to collect money – when I asked for what – there was no clear indication where the money was going..The chuch by the way was a public school house converted for the church on sundays..So, I knew the money wasn’t goin there..I told the collector, I will go downtown and give my money to homeless people who seem to need it more than the church did. I found this very self helping and proud on my part that the money I gave went directly to a souls that needed it..The interesting thing was the the homeless family NEVER asked my religion amd they only kissed my feet..

    After 9/11 I had to ask “What is ISLAM, WHAT IS KORAN: ? So I went..First off, we are in America (Land of the free) but clean..Muslim didn’t shower, shave their beards or remove the stinky towels from their heads and I do not believe that they all had chemo..In America we remove our hats when we enter to eat in a room..If I go to Muslim Land, I will rap a towel around my head..

    I gave the Isam people another chance, I went again thinking – they are jsut midevil people that need to be tought basic Hygeine – I thought I can help..So, The next service I brought soap, toothbrushes, siccors, and combs..I notices a pretty islmaic girl and approached her to hopefully clean her up and take her out for some Sushi and, Italian..

    The next thing I know – I have a small army of men chasing me and her down the street screaming something in JiberBabbish. A few days later I read on the internet that Islam Men kill woman family members for associating with me not related, especailly non muslim..Seems Neandertal to me.. Anyway, My suggestion is, Take the catholics, Muslims, Bapstist , Jews and put Charlie Manson in charge over there is ome desert..Leave all them pretty girls just waiting to let loose and drop them here in Philadelphia..I promise, they will be well taken care of..No more Camels, only BMW’s. No more rags hiding thier beautiful faces…Long live Charlie, Alla and all the other boneheads who believe this sh*t,,BUT PLEASE YOUR GIRLS IN AMERICA

  3. avatar ade wanto says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 1:47 pm

    Dawud Farquhar Says:

    This statement is one of the oft-repeated lies by Islamaphobes like you (and Christian missionaries) ..

    Instead of pretending to be a Muslim and maligning Islam, why don’t you have the courage to admit your Christianity learn about Islam …

    Assalamualaikum wr wb

    You are absolutely right, brother.

    In this sites you can easily find many people that those claim themselves as Moslem but really have intend to make confusing amongst Moslems. There many of their post prove it. See too at http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1465/bahai/

    Remember this is IM, brother. IM is not abbreviation for Indonesian Moslem. So I believe there are many Snouck Hurgronye here.

    Wasalam

  4. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 3:17 pm

    Deadwood,

    Once again you are denying that Al Quran is complete, perfect, and fully detailed as stated by Allah.

    Allah clearly asks in which hadith will they believe after being given a complete, perfect, and fully detailed book.

    It is you who is rejecting, Al Quran and calling Allah a liar!

    Not only that, you do not even follow your own hadith which clearly state that The Prophet forbade anybody to write anything of him other than Al Quran!

    Yet after this, is it you who calls me Khafir? What does that make you, munafik?

    You profess to be Muslim yet you reject Allah’s words? At least I can say that my guidance is from Allah. Yours comes from a collection of stories which defame The Prophet, contradict Al Quran, and which the enemies of Islam constantly use as ammununition against Islam.

    Allah warned the previous holders of scripture against what you and the mohammedans have done:

    They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up. 9:31

    You have hadith which say that The Prophet forbade writing anything of him other than Al Quran , you also have hadith which tell you that The Prophet ordered people to write his sunnah and hadith. You have hadith which say The Prophet consumated his marriage with Aisha at 9 years old, you have others which say that he consumated it when she was 14 years old. You have hadith which tell you to urinate standing up, and others which tell you to urinate squatting. You have hadith which tell you The Prophet left only Al Quran and others that tell you he left Al Quran and Sunnah. You have hadith which say that kissing your wife during the fast breaks the fast and another which says that it doesn’t. I could go on and on here for pages and pages, but I think enough has been said to make the point.

    What does Allah say in Al Quran about all this?:

    What is [the matter] with you? How do you judge? Or do you have a scripture in which you learn That indeed for you is whatever you choose? 68:36-38

    Let us see if you understand the following verse:

    Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom: That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan, but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth): And that those on whom knowledge has been bestowed may learn that the (Qur’an) is the Truth from thy Lord, and that they may believe therein, and their hearts may be made humbly (open) to it: for verily Allah is the Guide of those who believe, to the Straight Way. 22:52-54

    —————————————————————————————————–

    Cuk,
    You said:

    Tell me what is your prove that God ever send a holy book to prophet and how many page and how thick is the God made book? I mean a real book either the book made from the paper sheet or it made from the gold plate and not as message or “Wahyu”

    I never suggested it was a real physical book did I? I have no need to provide proof for something I never said.

    You also said:

    How do you know that the above verses is from Quran ? Did God tell directly to you that the above verses come from Quran? or Jew told to you that those verses from Quran?

    A simple matter of faith and belief in Allah Cuk, something you obviously lack.

  5. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    Deadwood,

    There is yet hope for you, although you are one of those mentioned in the first verse, denying Allahs guidance in the Book, He will still forgive you and your fellow muhammedans:

    Those who conceal the clear (Signs), and the Guidance, We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah’s curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,- 2:159

    Except those who repent and make amends and openly declare (the Truth): To them I turn; for I am Oft-returning, Most Merciful. 2:160

    _______________

    An example of how the hadith followers distract and distance themselves from the important issues of Allah’s Deen:

    Allahs/God’s Revelation How To Wash Vagina/Puki After Menses

    I especially like the threat “we will hunt you down like an animal and kill you.” This sort of behaviour shows just how far these people are from Allah’s message of Tolerance and Peace, The True Path espoused by Al Quran.

  6. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 6:07 pm

    Re

    “we will hunt you down like an animal and kill you.”

    I didn’t read most of the post he addressed to you, but did that Zionist Deadwood actually type that out? Fancy threatening us in our own turf. He also said that we are lucky to live in Indonesia, elsewhere we would be dead by now. Why should I live in Pakistan or Iran or Arabia, I am a Brown skinned.

    In retrospect, what he said was true, if Paki and Arab Muslims think it is halal to have sex with pre-teen girl and sex with daughter-in-laws following in Prophet Mohammad’s (pbuh) footstep, I have no doubt they would kill ALL Javanese Muslims, not just me and Mas Khafi.

  7. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 7:22 pm

    Hi AAB,

    No he didn’t make the comment to me, it was on the thread I put a link to. A malaysian thread talking about the hadith of how to clean the meki. Just the sort of information the Mohammedans need to reach heaven!

  8. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 8:09 pm

    Ade Wanto,

    I am suprised that you are not too ashamed to link to a thread, where all of your arguments were taken apart and proved false, a thread where you would not even acknowledge the existence of the word Injeel in Al Quran despite it being shown in Arabic, Bahasa Indonesia, and English!

    A thread where you openly admitted that you believed that there was more than one God.

    Where you refused to accept the historical fact that the word Allah, was used before Allah used it in Al Quran.

    A thread where you refused to understand that The Prophet’s fathers name, Abdullah, meant servant of Allah.

    Where you would not accept that Muslims existed before The Prophet even though you were shown the verse from Al Quran where Allah used the term for Nabi Ibrahim.

    A thread where you could not understand the meaning of the phrase “La Ilaha Illa Illah”.

    A thread where, like a lot of your hadith following brethren you had to resort to personal insult and accusing me of denigrating The Prophet……..

    Have you no shame, not even a slight sense of embarrasment?

  9. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 8:36 pm

    Ass. Mas Khafi and Mas Wanto

    Let’s stop the bickering and keep an eye on this Zionist provocateur. His incitement for Poso Mulsims to murder more of their Christian neighbours and brothers proved beyond doubt that he has an agenda. This Zionist’s modus operandi had been very successful in the Middle east, Iran and Pakistan with Muslims turning against Muslims.

  10. avatar dawud farquhar says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 11:35 pm

    Ade Wanto, thank you for your comments, they are much appreciated. I understand that there are many who claim to be Muslim but their hands contradict their speech. It is the duty of every Muslim to lift the lid on their stench and to refute their cults and ideas which they want to poison unweary Muslims with.

    Bahaism itself is a different religion and most Bahai’s do not like to use the term Islam to describe their faith. This is most acceptable because they are not pretending to be Muslim nor are they promoting their ideas as being Islamic in the orthodox sense. Cunning non-Muslims like khafir on the other hand, claim to be Muslim yet want to destroy the fabric from within.

    I know that IM is not an Islamic blog, but this thread is entitled ‘Learning Islam’, so it becomes ever more paramount to dispense correct and authentic info and sites that refutes the ‘sumbitters’ cult which khafir belongs to.

    The place of the Sunnah in the Islamic legislation:

    http://islambyquestions.net/sunna/cornerstone.htm

    Categories of the Sunnah:

    http://islambyquestions.net/sunna/noharming.htm

    The sunnah with respect to the Qur’an:

    http://islambyquestions.net/sunna/interprets.htm

    Why is establishing the sunnah necessary?

    http://islambyquestions.net/sunna/sacredway.htm

    The motives for the establishment of the sunna:

    http://islambyquestions.net/sunna/excellent.htm

    Motives for the companions to further learn the sunnah and convey it to others:

    http://islambyquestions.net/sunna/learn.htm

    Every word and action of the Messenger (S) has bearing on the religion of Islam. Therefore, his words and actions had to be recorded. The Companions did this holy task, either by committing them to memory or writing them down. There is not, in the world, another person, next to God’s Messenger, whose life is known down to its minutest details, and has been handed down through generations so accurately.

    This is why we are indebted to the Companions and the two or three generations after them, including the great Traditionists especially, who recorded his words and actions and transmitted them to future generations. And this is the blessing contained within the words of Allah: “Verily We have sent down the Reminder and We shall indeed preserve it.” [trans of 15:9]

    Status of Sunnah in Islam:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9UdYNFv9Gs

    http://audioislam.com/?subcategory=Hadith

  11. avatar Lairedion says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 11:39 pm

    Where the Scot from London really scored a winner was with this statement:

    Nothing is left out in Islam that is important enough to do; even the ettiquettes of going to the loo and washing after us has been explained in detail.

    Mas Khafi already addressed this earlier by answering:

    What can I really expect from a self confessed convert to Mohammedamisn from Catholisism, somebody who once believed in Trinity and the need to direct all his prayers through Maryam. He now beleives that he has to go to the toilet and wash himself just as The Prophet did to achieve salvation! LOL

    So Deadwood needs Islam to make sure he wipes his ass properly. Let me guess… using water with your left hand. No need to tell Scottie, every Indonesian does that, Muslims and non-Muslims.

  12. avatar dawud farquhar says:
    January 17th, 2008 at 11:59 pm

    Aluang kejaweni writes:

    >> His incitement for Poso Mulsims to murder more of their Christian neighbours and brothers proved beyond doubt that he has an agenda.

    I challenge you to copy and paste a complete comment on this board where I have condoned what you are presuming? You have become so blatant with your lies that you no longer bother to hide them :^) You must be taking some lessons from your side-kick khafir…

    khafi writes:

    >> I am suprised that you are not too ashamed to link to a thread, where all of your arguments were taken apart and proved false,

    Oh wow, now we are going to see the same non-Muslim Islamophobe khafir now defend Bahaism, lol. I assume you are now going to claim that they (like you, not) are also Muslim? Come on, I want to hear it. In fact it would not surprise anyone, because you are very much like Mirza `Ali Muhammad (“Bab”), born 1235 AH, who claimed to be the bab (‘gateway’ or precursor to the Mahdi) in, 1260. Unlike you, he was arrested and imprisoned, then executed (in 1265 AH). Then followed Mirza Husayn `Ali (“Baha’ullah”) who was imprisoned for four months, then was released and fled to `Iraq in 1269 AH. Remained there 12 years inviting to his religion, then was exiled to Istanbul, and imprisoned for 5 years, after which he was moved to `Aka, where he died in 1309 AH.

    http://www.bahaiawareness.com

    All cults are bred from the loins of each other. They feed off each others desire for power and status and in the cross-fire, ignorant and unfortunate people get trapped.

    >> Have you no shame, not even a slight sense of embarrasment?

    Truth has no shame, it is said wherever and whenever and to whomever without fear or favour. It is you who should be ashamed and embarrased to hide under the label of Muslim and openly lie about Islam and its Prophet and the Qur’an. Your level of cowadice does not rise to the level where you are able to ‘defend’ your cult outside the ‘protection’ of the Islam label that you choose to identify your filth with.

    ___________________________

    Lairedion writes:

    I see you are don’t really know much and you can’t really offer much here. Dutch days of colonialism are long gone, so you can forget about Indonesia and empire!

    >> So Deadwood needs Islam to make sure he wipes his ass properly.

    Absolutely, Islam is not just a religion but a complete way of life. It is this level of guidance and detail that was lost in Christendom. In fact most of the former Christians I know cite this as the second most crucial reason for leaving the Church because apart from unreconcilable doctrinal contradictions and scriptural alterations, the level of detail of jurispridence and Sunnah (i.e. the way and means and methods of Christ (pbuh) are missing. 99% of todays Christians (no matter what denomination) make up their own religion as they go along, with no basis in their books or history:

    http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.6.html

    Salman al-Farsi (R) narrated that “A Jew came to a Sahabah and asked “Does your friend (i.e. Prophet) teach you how to defecate?” he said (very proudly) “yes indeed! He forbade us to clean with your right hand, and forbade us to face the qiblah, and he forbade us to use bones or dried excrement.” (Saheeh Muslim 262, Musnad Imam Ahmad 23191(/9), Ibn Majah 316]

    If you are sincere enough to want to know more about any aspect of Islam that you are unsure of, simply visit: http://islam-qa.com

    Adios and I’ll see you when I get time.

  13. avatar Lairedion says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 4:45 am

    Lairedion writes:

    I see you are don’t really know much and you can’t really offer much here. Dutch days of colonialism are long gone, so you can forget about Indonesia and empire!

    No you wrote that. Keep focused. You’re getting sloppy!

    Absolutely, Islam is not just a religion but a complete way of life. It is this level of guidance and detail that was lost in Christendom. In fact most of the former Christians I know cite this as the second most crucial reason for leaving the Church because apart from unreconcilable doctrinal contradictions and scriptural alterations, the level of detail of jurispridence and Sunnah (i.e. the way and means and methods of Christ (pbuh) are missing. 99% of todays Christians (no matter what denomination) make up their own religion as they go along, with no basis in their books or history.

    Aluang Anak Bayang is right. You do hate the Christians.

    If you are sincere enough to want to know more about any aspect of Islam that you are unsure of, simply visit: http://islam-qa.com

    No thanks, I’d rather ask Mohammed Khafi or Sputjam.

  14. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 10:04 am

    @ Dawud Farquhar

    Dawud Farquhar Says:

    January 5th, 2008 at 3:17 am

    [p.s. If you are a Dayak, then mass killings and murder should not come as a surprise to you: http://youtube.com/watch?v=uMpMvEENdFc (but unlike you, I do not taint all your community with the brush of your head-hunting past).

    If this is not an incitement for Indonesian Muslims to murder more Indonesian Christians, then what it is. Didn’t you say others might view it as ‘justice’. From the name Ade Wanto, he is a Javanese. No Javanese is that dumb. Now go ask him to pick up a machete and hack off another Brown man because of religious difference under your direction, a Zionist Dawud Farquhar. I think the head that would come off first would be yours. Arab Muslims can murder Arab Christians for all I care, but you underestimated Javanese.

    @ Lairedion

    So Deadwood needs Islam to make sure he wipes his ass properly. Let me guess”¦ using water with your left hand. No need to tell Scottie, every Indonesian does that, Muslims and non-Muslims.

    You are wrong. It is using pebble with left hand and so on ..

    See sunnah Muslim 97
    The Prophet said: “When anyone awakes from sleep, he must clean his nose three times, for the devil spends the night in the interior of his nose.” Also: “When anyone wipes his anus with pebbles he should do this an odd number of times.”

    More insanity pantang larang from authentic hadith; which Javanese acknowledged, but do not follow through. :)

    Muslim 100 The Prophet said: “He who performs ablutions well, his sins come out of his body, even from under his nails.”

    Muslim 104 The Prophet said: “When answering the call of nature neither turn your face or back to Mecca.” “After excretion the right hand is not to be used, nor is a bone to be used nor camel dung. “Nor should you hold your penis with your right hand while urinating. Nor should you breathe into the vessel from which you drink.”

    Muslim 107 The common practice with the Holy Prophet was that he urinated in a sitting position. He then performed ablution and wiped his socks.

    Muslim 110 The Prophet said: “When anyone wakes up from sleep, he should wash his hands three times before putting them in the utensil, for he does not know where his hand was during the night.”

    Muslim 116 A’isha said: “I used to scrape the drop of semen off the Prophet’s garment and he then went out to prayer in that garment.”

    Muslim 777 The Prophet said: “Do not take the Qur’an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy who may quarrel with you over it.”

    Muslim 842 The Prophet said: “None of you should drink while standing; and if anyone forgets, he must vomit.”

  15. avatar Janma says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 10:18 am

    Someone who has never been to the Sudan or Ethiopia quoted…….

    “and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them;”

    You see, that’d be enough for me to know.

    and just as a PS….. Mr. F#*kUhard…..
    could you please stop calling M.Khafi a Kafir, and a non muslim…… It’s really annoying and insulting and it just shows you up as a non muslim…. Muhammad Khafi has never in my experience said anything here that has denigrated another, he stays calm and presents his arguments as he has a right to. he is compassionate and he loves his religion…..
    so basically just Shut it mate! didn’t your mother ever tell you, if you can’t say something nice don’t say anything at all. Your arguments are a valid expression of your opinion, no problem… but name calling? is that an islamic virtue?

  16. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 11:06 am

    Mbak Janma, he is a Zionist provocateur. He ain’t a Muslim. A muslim will accept the authentic sunnah that Aisha is 6, he accepted the re-interpreted version of 14.

  17. avatar Janma says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 11:15 am

    Probably washing his butt with pebbles after doing a number two makes him cantankerous.

  18. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

    LOL @ Janma

    Maybe he accidently used even number, and Allad swt punished him with cancer.

  19. avatar Cukurungan says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

    Cuk,

    You said:

    Tell me what is your prove that God ever send a holy book to prophet and how many page and how thick is the God made book? I mean a real book either the book made from the paper sheet or it made from the gold plate and not as message or “Wahyu”

    I never suggested it was a real physical book did I? I have no need to provide proof for something I never said.

    You see, that’d be enough for me to know.

    and just as a PS”¦.. Mr. F#*kUhard”¦..
    could you please stop calling M.Khafi a Kafir, and a non muslim”¦”¦ It’s really annoying and insulting and it just shows you up as a non muslim”¦. Muhammad Khafi has never in my experience said anything here that has denigrated another, he stays calm and presents his arguments as he has a right to. he is compassionate and he loves his religion”¦..
    so basically just Shut it mate! didn’t your mother ever tell you, if you can’t say something nice don’t say anything at all. Your arguments are a valid expression of your opinion, no problem”¦ but name calling? is that an islamic virtue?

    If you ask Mr Ariel Sharon/George Bush of course Mr Khafi is a beloved muslim but if you ask 1.3 billion of muslim like me, sorry I have to say that M.Khafi is a pseduo muslim and the Quran Twister

  20. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 2:13 pm

    Deadwood said:

    Oh wow, now we are going to see the same non-Muslim Islamophobe khafir now defend Bahaism, lol. I assume you are now going to claim that they (like you, not) are also Muslim? Come on, I want to hear it. In fact it would not surprise anyone, because you are very much like Mirza `Ali Muhammad (“Bab”), born 1235 AH, who claimed to be the bab (‘gateway’ or precursor to the Mahdi) in, 1260. Unlike you, he was arrested and imprisoned, then executed (in 1265 AH). Then followed Mirza Husayn `Ali (“Baha’ullah”) who was imprisoned for four months, then was released and fled to `Iraq in 1269 AH. Remained there 12 years inviting to his religion, then was exiled to Istanbul, and imprisoned for 5 years, after which he was moved to `Aka, where he died in 1309 AH.

    If you had bothered to read the thread, you would plainly see that I don’t defend Bahai’ism, although it gives a getter implementation of Islam than yours. They still idolise their prophet, much as you do, they also follow their prophets teachings, much as you do, rather than concentrating on God’s word.

    Deadwood also said:

    All cults are bred from the loins of each other. They feed off each others desire for power and status and in the cross-fire, ignorant and unfortunate people get trapped.

    Yes quite true and that is where the problem started, with the split of Islam into Sunni and Shia, both of them cults, as you say feeding off other peoples desire for power and status, you are also quite correct when you say that ignorant people get caught in the cross-fire, those are the people who support the sunni and shia cults, and who despite all of Allah’s warnings against it in Al Quran. have forgotten that Allah clearly states that Islam is the Universal religion, that all people have been sent messengers, that all who believe in God, do good deeds and believe in the day of judgement have nothing to fear from God.

    Islam is not Mohammedanism, nor is it Christianity, nor is it Judaism, nor Bahai’ism. It is simply submission to Allah. Which preaches, tolerance, equality, egalitarianism, reliance on individual reasoning, education and brotherly love. I feel truely sorry for all those who have become ensnared in a religion, which pits brother against brother, sister against sister, in their stupidity to prove that their religion is better than anybody elses.

    Many people have said that Mainstream Islam is in need of a reformation, this will never happen as long as people do not reason for themselves, as long as they blindly follow the teachings of others, there will never be any return to the enlightened times of pre sunnah and hadith Islam, as was demonstrated in Al Andalus, when Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together in harmony, in an environment which promoted learning, tolerance and understanding.

    The period of the Caliphate is seen by Muslim writers as the golden age of al-Andalus. Crops produced using irrigation, along with food imported from the Middle East, provided the area around Córdoba and some other Andalusī cities with an agricultural economic sector by far the most advanced in Europe. Among European cities, Córdoba under the Caliphate, with a population of perhaps 500,000, eventually overtook Constantinople as the largest and most prosperous city in Europe.[14] Within the Islamic world, Córdoba was one of the leading cultural centres. The work of its most important philosophers and scientists (notably Abulcasis and Averroes) had a major influence on the intellectual life of medieval Europe.

    Sadly fundamentalists such as Deadwood, see this “Golden age of Islam” as being the result of maintream Islam, even though it is clear from historial documents that this is far from the case. The Islam of Al Andalus was the Islam of Allah, not the Islam of sunnah and hadith. It was infact the sunnah and hadith inspired fundamentalists, the Almoravids who started the decline of Al Andalus, which lead to its eventual demise.

  21. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

    I asked Ade Wanto:

    Have you no shame, not even a slight sense of embarrasment?

    Deadwood commented:

    Truth has no shame, it is said wherever and whenever and to whomever without fear or favour. It is you who should be ashamed and embarrased to hide under the label of Muslim and openly lie about Islam and its Prophet and the Qur’an. Your level of cowadice does not rise to the level where you are able to ‘defend’ your cult outside the ‘protection’ of the Islam label that you choose to identify your filth with.

    This is Ade Wantos’s truth Deadwood, I will repeat my comments:

    I am suprised that you are not too ashamed to link to a thread, where all of your arguments were taken apart and proved false, a thread where you would not even acknowledge the existence of the word Injeel in Al Quran despite it being shown in Arabic, Bahasa Indonesia, and English!

    A thread where you openly admitted that you believed that there was more than one God.

    Where you refused to accept the historical fact that the word Allah, was used before Allah used it in Al Quran.

    A thread where you refused to understand that The Prophet’s fathers name, Abdullah, meant servant of Allah.

    Where you would not accept that Muslims existed before The Prophet even though you were shown the verse from Al Quran where Allah used the term for Nabi Ibrahim.

    A thread where you could not understand the meaning of the phrase “La Ilaha Illa Illah”.

    A thread where, like a lot of your hadith following brethren you had to resort to personal insult and accusing me of denigrating The Prophet”¦”¦..

    Have you no shame, not even a slight sense of embarrasment?

    Are these your truths as well Deadwood? Perhaps I should ask you if you have no shame or embarrasment?
    —————————————————————————————————–

    Cuk said:

    If you ask Mr Ariel Sharon/George Bush of course Mr Khafi is a beloved muslim but if you ask 1.3 billion of muslim like me, sorry I have to say that M.Khafi is a pseduo muslim and the Quran Twister

    Well at least I have the Jews and the Christians on my side, just those blind and brainwashed mohammedans to deal with now then.

    “pseudo muslim and Quran Twister” That is good coming from somebody like you Cuk, at least I use Al Quran and Allah’s word for my belief, not the fanciful fabrications of medaieval story tellers. Your hatred ridden concept of Islam is not just an insult to Allah but an insult to all humanity.

  22. avatar Cukurungan says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 3:26 pm

    Well at least I have the Jews and the Christians on my side, just those blind and brainwashed mohammedans to deal with now then.

    “pseudo muslim and Quran Twister” That is good coming from somebody like you Cuk, at least I use Al Quran and Allah’s word for my belief, not the fanciful fabrications of medaieval story tellers. Your hatred ridden concept of Islam is not just an insult to Allah but an insult to all humanity.

    Cukurungan Magic World finally able to reveal the true identity of Mr Khafi, he himself even admitted that he is on the side of the Jews and Christian.

    But the funniest thing of your bankrupt reasoning that you were slandering “Prophet Sahabat” that they fabricated hadist but in on other hand you use Quran in which also directly memorized and written by the same “Prophet Sahabat”.

    In front of the Jews and Christian you might claim that you use Quran but in the front 1.3 billion Muslim like me, you use the twisted Quran translation.

  23. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 4:14 pm

    Cukurungan Dunia Fantasi more like,

    You obviously need lessons in comprehension of English Cuk. I clearly said according to your statement that they were on my side, not the other way around. Your comprehension and twisting of English is just just as poor as your comprehension and twisting of Allah’s True Path.

    I have never slandered anybody, I have clearly stated my belief that writing and collection of hadith and sunnah was banned by The Prophet, his companions would have followed this injunction, as would the Rightly Guided Caliphs, you and the mohammedans are the ones slandering The Prophets companions when you suggest they would deliberately have disobeyed the Prophets commands. The verses of Al Quran were written down during the lifetime of The Prophet, although collated into its present form after his death, he would have ensured that no falsehood crept into it during his lifetime. The corrupt and fabricated hadith were written down 150-200 years after the prophets death, not by the prophets companions at all but by others, that is the reason that you mohammedans need Isnad, to try and confirm a chain of heresay over that 150-200 year period. When you have a book guaranteed By Allah to be protected, complete, perfect and fully detailed, why would you need hadith and sunnah. Because the devil has lead you astray?:

    And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy:
    Or lest ye should say: “If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they.” Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth Allah’s signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.
    6:156-157

    For me, I repeat what The Prophet said:

    Say: Surely, (as for) me, my Lord has guided me to the right path; (to) a most right religion, the faith of Ibrahim the upright one, and he was not of the polytheists. 6:161

  24. avatar Lairedion says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 9:08 pm

    To all,

    I would like to make a final comment on this thread as we can continue like this forever and ever without getting any further. I require nobody to agree on this.

    I have thought about this discussion, I’ve seen many other similar discussions and it just reconfirms my personal view that no human on earth can tell the truth when it comes to the existence of God and religion.

    Every human is free to have his/her own opinion, myself, Dawud, Mas Khafi, Mas AAB, Mbak Janma, Mas Cuk, Mas Sputjam etc. But when it comes to the sensitive matter of religion, Islam or other, suddenly a lot of people become obsessed with the other person’s view and behaviour, want to play the role of God and claiming their truth is the only one valid.

    The problem with people like Dawud is that they blend truth, knowledge, justification and belief into one notion. I really think he should avoid this because the evil side effects of these are hatred and intolerance towards other minds which may well lead to confrontation, violence and possibly war. He’s branding people thinking different as Islamophobes, wanna be Muslims and Christians because he no longer separates truth, knowledge, justification and belief from each other. Let me state that this behaviour is human and not limited to Islam and religion in general but also appears in ideologies like Communism, Fascism and atheism.

    Do I claim to know the existence of God? No.
    Do I claim to know the non-existence of God? No.

    Do I believe in God and do I believe I will be judged on doing good deeds and righteousness? Yes I do.
    Do I claim to know for 100% sure this will happen when I die? No.

    So I guess I’ll have to wait until the day I die and maybe and hopefully meet the Creator so He can judges me.

    If you simply face the reality of our world and study the history of mankind there never has been consensus or 100% agreement how to follow or practice a particular religion or ideology and there never will be. Because it’s against human nature.

    An IM’er with the name balibent expressed it perfectly by making a very impressive comment on Banning Islamic Sects

    I cannot say it better so I took the liberty to copy it in my comment.

    balibent Says:
    January 12th, 2008 at 11:10 am

    In history of man there have been thousand of religions, Almost every discovered tribe or civilization has had some religious practices. MUI is fighting human nature to ban the new and evoling religious expressions of fellow humans. All religions have only one thing in common, they come from the human desire to fill in the blanks which come from self awareness in human brains. Surely the human understanding of the cosmos and the human experience is different from those who worshipped Apollo or Thor and it was in need of an update. In the same way what is the reality of religions which are based in the limited understandings 1500 or 2000 or 3000 years ago?

    we know from history and human nature that the humans are subject to the relativism and social norms of its culture and have only capability of limited understanding. How can we claim absolute in face of this obvious human nature of limited understanding.

    The religious or spiritual questions need to be asked over and over again from the view of our evoling self awareness. The answers (religions) have only to be accepted by those who ask and answer them to their own satisfaction. The organized religions are about control and politics. Always have been. They start with the answer not the question.

    I like IM very much. Being located in the Netherlands it’s a very good resource of Indonesia next to the common news websites and contacts with my relatives and friends in Tanah Air. I thoroughly enjoy reading comments and participating in discussions over here.

    Peace to y’all.

  25. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 10:18 pm

    @ Lairedion

    Ciao. Thank you for your input so far. I am still on holiday until end of the month, so I will entertain our bigoted Scottish guest for a while.

    Dawud Farquhar does exhibit all the characteristics and traits one would expect from a typical Islamist. He could either be a True Muslims of the Wahabi sect or a Zionist provocateur. If not for mistakes he made, I would have believed it was the former.

  26. avatar Lairedion says:
    January 18th, 2008 at 11:14 pm

    Ciao. Thank you for your input so far. I am still on holiday until end of the month, so I will entertain our bigoted Scottish guest for a while.

    Matur nuwun uga, Mas Aluang. Excuse me if my Javanese is not good. I like your comments very much and I’ll catch you on other threads here on IM. Enjoy the rest of your holiday and give the Scot a good banter from me :).

  27. avatar Sputjam says:
    January 19th, 2008 at 9:56 am

    Janma Says:

    Someone who has never been to the Sudan or Ethiopia quoted”¦”¦.

    “and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them;”

    Perhaps, these people have ignored God’s messages, became pagan worshippers and consume their time worshipping and doing worthless rituals, rather than focusing on using their God given common sense to eliminate their sufferings.

    Communites who are consume in some kind of idol worship seems to suffer the most and are the poorest. Those that ignore rituals and use their common sense seems to be developing very well.
    But tell this to people who are consumed in religion, and they will say otherwise. Even with evidence, they will not believe in what was stated. So they pray even harder, spend more time doing rituals, in order to get God’s blessings. But the harder the religionist try, the further they stray away from the true message, and they suffer even more. Its a perpetual spiral to destruction.

  28. avatar Dawud Farquhar says:
    January 19th, 2008 at 8:24 pm

    Aluang kejaweni writes:

    >> If this is not an incitement for Indonesian Muslims to murder more Indonesian Christians, then what it is.

    “[p.s. If you are a Dayak, then mass killings and murder should not come as a surprise to you: http://youtube.com/watch?v=uMpMvEENdFc (but unlike you, I do not taint all your community with the brush of your head-hunting past)"

    Now I know that you are here just to waste time. If you think that these comments of mine are an 'incitement for Indonesian Muslims to murder more Indonesian Christians' then you need to get your language skills in order as they are pathetic. You need serious help in your comprehension also if you cannot distinguish what 'incitement' is and how on earth this statement could in any sense mean that I encourage Muslims to kill Christians.... Does your desperation have no limits?

    >> Dawud Farquhar does exhibit all the characteristics and traits one would expect from a typical Islamist.

    'Typical Islamist'? LOL, do you really think Muslims even care about these modern-day invented labels? According to the Neocons in Washington, an "Islamist" is seen as a threat because they use this this term to "denote a set of political ideologies holding that Islam is not only a religion but also a political system." Clearly you can see the foolishness of this label because politics is just as much a part of Islam as the arkaan (pillars/conditions) of prayer or zakah or fasting etc. It is Islam that defines politics and not vice versa. It is Islam that is a wholly comprehensive way of life and not just a mere religion as non-Muslims would like to portray it.

    By taking away the political apsect of Islam, non-Muslim governments are trying to reduce the faith into mere rituals that can no longer pose a threat to their status quo are global powers. The age-old 'divide and conquer' strategy is very much in operation and with labels like 'Islamism' or 'moderate' or 'extremist' or 'liberal' etc, they cannot change the essence of Islam nor its sources nor its theology. It is a futile excercise that is beginning to drown before it could float.

    _________________________________

    khafir, your frustration is very much common amongst the 'submitters' cult. When faced with a barrage of ayaays and historical contextual facts, they can't but become enraged and it is at this point that non-Muslims like you begin to do away with proofs and evidence and logic altogether. Reinterpreting what has already been interpreted under the authority of the Messenger and guidance of the first generation of Muslims, is a flaw that even a non-Arabic speaking child can idenitfy.

    The whole point of blogs etc. is that one party portrays its stance and gives its information and the other party portrays its stance and gives its information. It is then left to the impartiality of the readers to draw their own conclusions and come to their own understanding on the issue/s. They are free and have the liberty to research or define their own criterias in accepting or rejecting a particular viewpoint.

    The information and the urls that are in the domain are for their benefit first and foremost, I certainly did not come here to convince you to embrace Islam nor for me to be sucked in by your ignorance. You should be man enough to let the readers decide.

    On the acceptance of Islam, people cannot be forced to accept Islam as the message has to be accepted by one's own free will and own initiative, as the following ayah points out:

    "And say (O Muhammad); The truth is from your Sustainer, so let him WHO WILLS, believe, and let him WHO WILLS disbelieve.." [trans of Quran 18:29]

    “And if your Sustainer had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed.” [trans of Quran 10:99]

    If one accepts Islam, then it is for their own benefit and if he goes against them then the consequences will again be upon one’s own self. The person giving da’wah or delivering the message is NOT a custodian over the people:

    “”¦so whoever follows the right way, it is for his own soul and whoever errs, he errs only to its detriment; and you are not a custodian over them.” [trans of 39:41]

    The choice is yours: http://ilmcentral.hadithuna.com

    And by no means the least, here’s more to add to your unrefutable list:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGmnTAcyZa0&feature=related
    http://islamtoday.com/discover_islam.cfm?cat_id=6&sub_cat_id=41
    http://www.islamic-awareness(dot)org/Hadith

    Unlike you, I do have a life’ so see you around – I’ll pop in here as and when I get the time.

  29. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 20th, 2008 at 12:29 pm

    @ Dawud Farquhar

    One do not have to be an English literatus to conclude your evil intent. Your ‘new’ Islamic discovery is not a recent phenomena. Throughout history, there were documented reports. The 1st Ming emperor thought he was a reincarnation of Jesus and that Christianity is the ‘one and only’ religion for all mankind. Japan’s Shoko Asahara found ‘truth’ too and believe his created religion is the ‘one and only’. :) Many followed in your path. When I was in my pre-teen, I read comics and I always wanted to grow up to be Spiderman, Silver Surfer or even Batman. As one mature, you realise these are fantasies. The difference between me and you was that you did not grow out of your cocoon.

    If your ‘new’ discovery do not transform you into a violent, aggressive, panicky, paranoic, believing in bizarre belief and a tendency to impose your ‘enlightened’ view on others, and shout down those who asked questions, who cares.

    Dawud, you do need to broaden your horizon, the Bible and Quran are not the only books in this world. You do need to study or at least read ancient wisdom from China or India to broaden your horizon. I would not be surprise you will one day decide Taoism or Buddhism as the ‘one true’ religion for mankind, and wouldn’t take it any other way. How could one think it is morally right to deflower pre-teen little girl? You gave me a link that

    ‘studies have found that marriage are healthier between men and girl of huge age gap’

    . Once again, let me tell you this: Indonesian culture think it is repulsive. I am sure Scot men think the same UNLESS you have pedophilic intent.

    You postings spoke a lot of you. Try to read scriptures from other part of the world. Remember Allah swt send down 128,000 messengers before prophet Mohammad pbuh. There is a high chance that Prophet Confiscious pbuh is a messenger, or even Prophet Buddha pbuh.

    If a White man Muslim convert coming to our land and tell us that our Islam needs re-educated, we will first have to check your credentials; telling Indonesian to kill another Indonesians will get yourself in danger with top officials.

    Salam.

  30. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 20th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

    @ Dawud Farquhar

    You are like a Blackmen who found ‘truth’ in a Klan’s handbook. The bullying and lynching of Blacks was seen as not accepting ‘truth’ as detailed in the Klan book. You set about to re-educate the Black on your new found discoveries – if only Blacks had been more submissive and accepting of their lower caste status, there won’t be any peace. The Klanmen will pat their dog , but deep down you will not be accepted as equal.

    Too bad, you will not be accepted as equal with the Arabs, let alone the Brown men.

    Wasalam.

    _________________________

    @ Dawud Farquhar

    Clearly you can see the foolishness of this label because politics is just as much a part of Islam as the arkaan (pillars/conditions) of prayer or zakah or fasting etc. It is Islam that defines politics and not vice versa. It is Islam that is a wholly comprehensive way of life and not just a mere religion as non-Muslims would like to portray it.

    This is what our Indonesian government will do with undesirables like you. :)

    A lesson worth learning from China: the Great Satan and every single Western countries complained of human rights with their ‘no fuss, no frills’ immediate detention of Islamist activists. The Chinese leaders are visionaries, they know a out of control Islamists influence will further lead to human sufferings, choas and further catastrophes. The Kashmir side of China is forever peaceful. Why?

    Getting our house in order is their first priority. Undesirables like Dawud farquhar will be and should be eliminated for interfering in our politics. The Bules will have to get stuffed with their human rights’ garbage for now.

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