Learning Islam

Aug 7th, 2007, in IM Posts, by

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306 Comments on “Learning Islam”

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  1. avatar Lairedion says:
    January 9th, 2008 at 9:41 pm

    The 3 most authentic hadithes state that Aisha was married at 6 years of age and deflowered 3 years later

    What a pervert! My own daughter is almost 6 years old. Can you imagine?
    Was and is this still common practice in the Arab world?

  2. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 9th, 2008 at 10:01 pm

    @ Lairedion

    NU and Muhammadiyah, the 2 two largest Islamic groups accepted the original version i.e. Aisha was married off at age 6 and deflowered at age 9. This immoral Arabian practice was in direct conflict to Indonesian’s (Javanese to be exact) moral value; although halal, no Indonesian Muslims adopted it. However, Iranian and Pakistanis were all too eager to follow it through.

    This alone is evident enough that we have a far more civilized culture.

  3. avatar raden says:
    January 9th, 2008 at 10:44 pm

    Kiai Basyir said :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY3okw4A-M4

    unfortunately his speech was in bahasa mixed Javanese but not in english, so only those Indonesian can understand thoroughly the content.
    His teaching at a glance = Christian’s old testament bible, the difference he believe Syairah Islam is the only suitable law to bring Indonesia back on track. According to him, those who refuse Syairah Law, his sins will be unforgiven by Allah and deserve punishment in the eternal hell, among other smaller kind of sins if Allah willing to forgive, the sinful fellow still possible entering the heaven but not ignoring syairah law.

    Any comment from the readers ?

  4. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 9th, 2008 at 10:58 pm

    According to him, those who refuse Syairah Law, his sins will be unforgiven by Allah and deserve punishment in the eternal hell, among other smaller kind of sins if Allah willing to forgive, the sinful fellow still possible entering the heaven but not ignoring syairah law.

    Hmmmm, there is also another man running around town saying that anyone who accepts the Syairah Law his sins will be unforgiven by Allah and deserve punishment in the eternal hell, among other smaller kind of sins if Allah willing to forgive, the sinful fellow still possibel entering the heaven but ignoring syairah law.

    Same Allah too. Can one imagine?

  5. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 9th, 2008 at 11:02 pm

    Any comment from the readers ?

    Yes. Kiai Basyir is an honest muslim at least. He was quoting unaldultered verses from the authentic hadis, unlike Dawud and co who tried to change Aisha’s age to 14. To change the original teaching to suit one’s agenda is a crime most heinous and punishable by death.

  6. avatar Lairedion says:
    January 9th, 2008 at 11:04 pm

    This alone is evident enough that we have a far more civilized culture

    He he this reminds me of my Javanese grandmother, may she rest in peace: “We built Borobudur and Prambanan when you Dutchies were still living in caves and holes.”

  7. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 9th, 2008 at 11:10 pm

    He he this reminds me of my Javanese grandmother, may she rest in peace: “We built Borobudur and Prambanan when you Dutchies were still living in caves and holes.”

    Lairedion,

    Now that you’ve mentioned Borobudur and Prambanan, I read it somewhere that the monuments left behind by that civilisation (and I can’t exactly remember now which one it is) is the largest temple of that Religion in the world till today.

    I can imagine the magnificence and grandeur of that civilisation.

    Unfortunately, I have not yet visited those sites. I hope to someday.

  8. avatar Sputjam says:
    January 9th, 2008 at 11:36 pm

    Khafi asks -

    How about you Sputjam? We all know what you think, you have made it abundantly clear in your (please don’t be offended) often repeated postings, But you seldom quote from Scriptural Sources to back up your views.

    My repeatations are just reminders for folks to who may be thinking in similar direction as but does not have the will to change their religious ways. initially, i quoted scriptures, but decided against it, as some text may be incorrectly translated. so I stress on verses that are clear and easily understood and repeated several times in the koran, hoping to reach out and get some soul from the religion of islam to notice and ponder.

    The most important thing is that I do not force others to follow a certain way as they also have no right to force me. Allah is our Judge, it is not for me to decide who believes in him or who doesn’t.

    Well said. Who are we to judge. The only one that qualify for this job is God, The Merciful, The Judge.

    Lairedion asks -

    europeans like laredion have long abandoned their religion. And the result is for all of us to see.

    How should I read this? Forgive me for I am ignorant.

    The europeans were shackled by religion in the dark ages, until maybe 300 years ago, when they decided to sideline religion and promote common sense. Today, religion is in decline, with churches being abandoned all over europe. And their quality of life have improved substantially.
    I hope those of the so called muslim population will do the same, whilst keeping their moral values intact.
    The messages from the prophets was never about religion. It was about good behaviour and the existance of God and judgement day in the next life. those who embraced religion are regarded as idol worshippers (pagans) in the scriptures.

    So my statement is really about europeans being on the right track in terms of abandoning religion. My only wish is that they do not abandon God as well.

  9. avatar raden says:
    January 9th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

    Now that you’ve mentioned Borobudur and Prambanan, I read it somewhere that the monuments left behind by that civilisation (and I can’t exactly remember now which one it is) is the largest temple of that Religion in the world till today.

    me :
    you should visit India before making such claims, I saw many large pura bigger than Prambanan and more grandeur than Borobudur everywhere in India. Although I am Indonesian but after I saw what Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore, Kolkata, etc have , then I never make such claims anymore.
    ‘ itu dulu ketika kita sekolah dan masih ngompol di bangku SD ‘ … our teachers who never travel overseas because no budget & the history books said so, just repeating the empty claims

  10. avatar Lairedion says:
    January 9th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

    Dear iamisaid,

    Borobudur is the largest Buddhist shrine/temple in the world and is considered as one of the masterpieces of all mankind. If you ever get the chance to visit it do it in the early morning at sunrise before it’s being invaded by bad-dressed bule tourists. You’ll be surrounded by the magnificent twin volcanoes of Sundoro-Sumbing and Merbabu-Merapi.

    Prambanan is equally beautiful and there are many other interestingcandiall over Java.

    Did you know that in 1985 nine stupas at Borobudur were severely damaged by nine bombs detonated by Islamic extremists?

  11. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 9th, 2008 at 11:49 pm

    Sputjam,

    So my statement is really about europeans being on the right track in terms of abandoning religion. My only wish is that they do not abandon God as well.

    It is a good thing that you returned to elaborate and to clarify your earlier statement.

    Sometimes, the Interet creates more misunderstandings, woes and foes than need be. Although brevity is the soul of wit it does create problems too.

    It is a good deed too that Lairedion stuck with his query and did not jump to conclusions until the matter was cleared.

  12. avatar Sputjam says:
    January 9th, 2008 at 11:54 pm

    He he this reminds me of my Javanese grandmother, may she rest in peace: “We built Borobudur and Prambanan when you Dutchies were still living in caves and holes.”

    Lairedion,

    Now that you’ve mentioned Borobudur and Prambanan, I read it somewhere that the monuments left behind by that civilisation (and I can’t exactly remember now which one it is) is the largest temple of that Religion in the world till today

    Borobodur ad Prambanan was probably built by priest of Hindu and budhist religion from INDIA, with the assistance of local labour. The Indian influence also help built the Angkor Wat in cambodia.

    during the time of indian influence in south-east asia, the Indians in India were dravidians, and not of the Aryan race types. The Dravidian built enormous temples and cities in india, some of which still stands until today, in similar style to that found in prambanan but on a much larger scale.

    .

  13. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 9th, 2008 at 11:55 pm

    Hi there Lairedion,

    Borobudur is the largest Buddhist shrine/temple in the world and is considered as one of the masterpieces of all mankind. If you ever get the chance to visit it do it in the early morning at sunrise before it’s being invaded by bad-dressed bule tourists. You’ll be surrounded by the magnificent twin volcanoes of Sundoro-Sumbing and Merbabu-Merapi.

    You make me want to head there on my next trip to Indonesia. I love places and edifices that are ancient. I do not know why it has such a grip on me. The way you relate it to me, I reckon that you have already been there and seen it all. Lucky chap!

    Did you know that in 1985 nine stupas at Borobudur were severely damaged by nine bombs detonated by Islamic extremists?

    Awww what a shame! That is such a fine heritage. Why can’t humans put aside their hatred and cause for destruction?

    _________________________

    Hi raden,

    you should visit India before making such claims, I saw many large pura bigger than Prambanan and more grandeur than Borobudur everywhere in India. Although I am Indonesian but after I saw what Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore, Kolkata, etc have , then I never make such claims anymore.
    ‘ itu dulu ketika kita sekolah dan masih ngompol di bangku SD ‘ “¦ our teachers who never travel overseas because no budget & the history books said so, just repeating the empty claims

    The source where I read the information that the ancient temple in Indonesia left behind by the early civilisation, was not an Indonesian based site. It was a non Indonesian based site. It even declared that India which was where Buddhism and Hinduism originates did not have a temple in comparison by size to the one in Indonesia.

    So, I guess, your SD teachers in Indonesia were telling the fact as it is.

  14. avatar Lairedion says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 12:02 am

    Dear Raden,

    you should visit India before making such claims, I saw many large pura bigger than Prambanan and more grandeur than Borobudur everywhere in India. Although I am Indonesian but after I saw what Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore, Kolkata, etc have , then I never make such claims anymore

    iamaisaid was asking about the largest temple in a particular religion. Well Borobudur is. What the most beautiful temple is is a personal taste. But I agree India, as the birthplace of both Hinduism and Buddhism, has many magnificent temples .

  15. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 12:06 am

    Hmmmmm,

    We need to get Patung to start another article “Learning Temples”.

    LOL !

    Do you think we will have some Farquharist visiting such an article?

  16. avatar Lairedion says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 12:32 am

    Do you think we will have some Farquharist visiting such an article?

    Probably. In temples idols are worshipped and he will tell us that’s haram.

    The way you relate it to me, I reckon that you have already been there and seen it all. Lucky chap!

    Yes, I worked as a tour leader in South-East Asia for 3 years (1995-1998), I was based in Bandung and during this period I visited Borobudur many times. It was a way to get to know more about my heritage and to be close to my then girlfriend now wife.

    Sputjam thanks for your comment. It’s clear now. I regret to say that many Europeans have also abandoned God and became atheists. But I know many good people who happen to be atheist.

  17. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 12:40 am

    Probably. In temples idols are worshipped and he will tell us that’s haram.

    HA HA HA HA HA ! they make themselves indispensable!

    We must hang pictures of their Founder in all the temples. That way they might reconsider and behave!

    Yes, I worked as a tour leader in South-East Asia for 3 years (1995-1998), I was based in Bandung and during this period I visited Borobudur many times. It was a way to get to know more about my heritage and to be close to my then girlfriend now wife.

    WOW ! 3 years! that would have taken you to many, many places. You lucky chap!

  18. avatar Teng says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 1:05 am

    I love both Borobudur and Prambanan,

    But even though Borobudur is more famous, Prambanan certainly impressed me even more, especially the huge candi Shiwa :D

  19. avatar Lairedion says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 1:53 am

    WOW ! 3 years! that would have taken you to many, many places. You lucky chap!

    The impressions and experiences are priceless! I can recommend it to everyone, except to our beloved friend Dawud Farquhar (where is he?). He will be devastated by experiencing Indonesian Islam.

  20. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 1:57 am

    except to our beloved friend Dawud Farquhar (where is he?). He will be devastated by experiencing Indonesian Islam.

    hahahahahahahahahahaha

    He saw the photo of himself at page 5 of this article, was devastated, ran out in his boxers to the nearest plastic surgery clinic for a face lift.

  21. avatar Lairedion says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 2:04 am

    He saw the photo of himself at page 5 of this article, was devastated, ran out in his boxers to the nearest plastic surgery clinic for a face lift.

    Ha ha. We should give him time to recover from his surgery. I wonder what will he look like!

  22. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 2:36 am

    Lairedion,

    Ha ha. We should give him time to recover from his surgery. I wonder what will he look like!

    Methinks that he has taken more than he could handle.

    I did tell Aluang A. Bayang the other day that this would happen. Apparently, my telegram did not lie.

    Now he not only needs a face-lift, he needs to find an ass donor too!

    Aluang A. Bayang says:

    I bet he would come back for more beltings to save his own face.

    iamisaid says:

    By that it is to be assumed that he comes back walking in the gait of Homo Erectus.

    But I have received a telegram that to avoid detection, he might come in walking on his hands to save his face and lose his ass!

    ________________________

    Teng,

    I love both Borobudur and Prambanan,

    But even though Borobudur is more famous, Prambanan certainly impressed me even more, especially the huge candi Shiwa

    Please don’t make my ass itch to get there!

  23. avatar Dawud Farquhar says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 2:55 am

    Aluang kejaweni write:

    >> NO True Muslim will accept any other interpretation.

    Correct and trying to interpret something that is clear as the day is only futile. Unfortunately you are not in any position to be discussing Islamic matters when you are not a Muslim nor qualified in any aspect of Islamic teachings.

    >> To change the original teaching to suit one’s agenda is a crime most heinous and punishable by death.

    And it is fortunate for you and other non-Muslims like khafir that you live in Indonesia, otherwise you would have met your fate as explained in the ‘original teachings’ that you both deny and seek to reinterpret simply because you do not like it the way it was reveale, lol.

    Lets get back to my previous discussion with you on Islamic revivalism and Indonesia that you and your Islamophobe buddies can’t tolerate… In widely-spread parts of Asia, revolutionary revivalist views provoked both social reform movements and revolutions against colonial rule. In 1803, three hajjis returning to Western Sumatra in Indonesia founded the Padri movement, which between 1821 and 1833 carried on an active rebellion against Dutch rule. The Padri rebellion was directed not only against the colonial power, but also against the traditional aristocratic families, and against customs that combined Islamic practice with pre-Islamic traditional law (what you call Kejaweni :^)

    These are but two examples of what was beginning in Asia in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Elsewhere, Muslim pilgrims returned to southern Thailand and China with revivalist views; the formation of the Muhammadiyah Movement in Yogyakarta by Ahmad Dahlan. Ahmad’s ideas were short-lived as those who took the reign of the movement after him sanitised what it stood for and made it inconsequential in the face of the ever evolving needs of the people of Java.

    The Muslim revival linked religious and political concerns to pursue their societal ends as they sought to create a state that would favour and implement these goals. The first objective was to achieve liberation from non-Muslim rule. Revival of society was needed in all aspects of social, economic, and political spheres as it was felt that this could only be done if Muslims themselves were in control of the political systems. The political theory held that the state existed to permit Muslims to foster the Islamisation process and to forbid and punish wrongdoing.

    Those lessons that were misread have been corrected and unifying of trans-0cean ranks is a gradual process.

    _______________________

    khafir writes:

    >> My Islam is defined by my behaviour and my manners,

    You have no Islam in the first place if your reject hadeeth. This phenomenon of anti-hadeeth infidels began over 700 years and it will be put down everytime it rears its ugly head”¦ The Almighty SWT says:

    “Whatever the Messenger gives you take it, and whatever he forbids you abstain from it.” [Sûrah al-Hashr: 7]

    Also, further to the previous Quran’ic references giving direct commands to take from the Messenger, Allah says: “Whoever obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ': 80]

    Trust me, you have picked on a clear-cut subject that you will wish you should not have. By trying to change Islamic foundations and history you are challenging the Allaah and the consensus of the Muslims who have come down a long chain of command (i.e. the science of isnad) – You really need to learn before you continue to make laughable mistakes in the most basic aspects of Islam (namely primary sources of legislation):

    Allah says: “O you who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur’ân is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing.” [Sûrah al-Mâ'idah: 101]

  24. avatar Lairedion says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 3:22 am

    Mr. Dawud,

    It’s always a joy to read your comments

    The Padri rebellion was directed not only against the colonial power, but also against the traditional aristocratic families, and against customs that combined Islamic practice with pre-Islamic traditional law (what you call Kejaweni :^)

    I’m no expert to Kejawen but I’m sure it wasn’t/isn’t practised by orang Padang.

    To repeat a longstanding question in a different way.

    Are you:

    a. Indonesian?
    b. of (mixed) Indonesian descent?
    c. Malaysian?
    d. Arab?
    e. Pakistani?
    f. Adam Gadahn?
    g. another converted Bule?
    h. a CIA spy?
    i. an alien stuck on Earth?

  25. avatar Dawud Farquhar says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 3:47 am

    -khafir, obeying Allaah is without doubt, obligatory. So when Allaah says: “Whosoever obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allaah” (Surah An-Nisa 4:80), it should be clear that one has obeyed Allaah by obeying the Messenger. Furthermore the Messenger (S) said: “”¦whosoever disobeys me, disobeys Allaah” and thus following the Sunnah is clearly an obligation upon every Muslim.

    The obligation is stressed even more when Allaah says: “But no, by your Lord, they (Muslims) can have no faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept them with full submission” (Sura An-Nisa 4:65)

    also;

    “It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decreed by Allaah and His Messenger to have any choice in the matter. If anyone disobeys Allaah and His Messenger he is clearly astray” (Surah Al-Ahzab 33:36).

    As Muslims we know that when Allaah or His Messenger decree something for us, it will always benefit us, even if we do not realise it. Thus, submitting to the Messenger is only there for our benefit and not to oppress us, as some mistakenly believe.

    “Indeed in the Messenger of Allaah you have the most beautiful pattern of conduct” (Surah Al-Ahzab 33:21)

    You ain’t seen nothing yet of the volumes of messages I will be posting here ‘inshaa Allaah.

    In the meantime, try learning some basic Arabic first and try consulting early history books that has preserved the Seerah. I’ll be adding some exceptional audio on this subject as well later…

    _______________________

    Lairedion writes:

    >> I’m no expert to Kejawen but I’m sure it wasn’t/isn’t practised by orang Padang.

    Hi L, kejawen addresses ethical and spiritual values as inspired by Javanese tradition (that pre-dates the advent of Islam) rather that Islam. This is the reason why I used the phrase ‘pre-Islamic traditional law’ because kejawen is a descriptive label for those elements of Javanese culture that are considered to be essentially Javanese (lit. “Javanism”).

    I understand kejawen as an intangible system of thought which many Muslims do not approve of. Tolerance is gradually wearing think for this enforced syncretic character of Islam in Java and work has been under way to purify it from its local elements. To recognise a fault, one must have the knowledge to recognise the opposite. With the passing of the old, the new generations will have access to the knowledge that will enable them to make that choice.

  26. avatar Lairedion says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 5:11 am

    Dear Dawud,

    kejawen addresses ethical and spiritual values as inspired by Javanese tradition (that pre-dates the advent of Islam) rather that Islam.

    Are you saying here that kejawen has 100% nothing to with Islam?

  27. avatar Janma says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 11:44 am

    “We built Borobudur and Prambanan when you Dutchies were still living in caves and holes.”

    that was said by someone who knows nothing about history! and what were the javanese living in in those days? Palaces? or maybe gedeg? maybe sticks… definitely not bricks!

    maybe they know little of the roman empire? Of the buidings, roads and legal institutions they created… many of which are still being used today…. what about the greek architecture of antiquity? Aqueducts, forums, ampitheathres? what of all the beautiful cathedrals built in europe in the dark ages?

    If i’m not wrong there are still people in indonesia living in caves and trees…

  28. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 11:58 am

    Ass. Dawud.

    When Muslims looked around the world at the beginning of the 19th Century, many asked, “What went wrong?” From having (in previous centuries) the world’s most powerful, advanced, and prosperous states within the khalifates and empires, they had almost everywhere succumbed to the rule of others …

    The world’s most powerful, advanced, and prosperous states within the khalifates and empires – This is subjective by narrow minded muslims who only read Islamic history. Since your world is very narrow, I will take you for an information tour with God forsaken China.

    China experienced the same thing. They were dominated by Western powers vying for a piece of their land. Their once wealthy, powerful and influential status were erased overnight. They were humiliated and coolies in their own country. Instead of blaming the West for all their woes, they introspected, they find out what went wrong, they strive to better themselves; and within a generation got back on their feet – all without the help of imaginary deities. Now they are talking on parlance with other superpowers.

    Your khalifates instead of introspecting blamed your own demise at the hand of satans – Calling each other infidel and killing brothers who had different interpretation. You come up with your own version and now think that I and Mas Khafi should be dead in your last post. You still refuse to unveil your ethnic identity and craftily avoided that question altogether. Why, may I ask.

    Mas Kahfi, Sputjam and I may have different interpretations. We had argued and disagree every now and then, but they are the same persons I could trust in time of trouble. This is the spirit of Indonesia which is absence from all overseas muslim brothers. There is more you need to learn about about culture than blog penning and telling what we must and must not do.

    Wasalam.

    _______________________

    Assalamualaikum mbak Janma.

    that was said by someone who knows nothing about history! and what were the javanese living in in those days? Palaces? or maybe gedeg? maybe sticks”¦ definitely not bricks!

    How ignorant! Should brick housing be a measure of an advance civilisation?

    Mbak Janma, with due respect, our Javanese Rajahs lives in magnificient wooden Palace and local Javanese live in beautifully crafted wooden house; some of which still remain to this days. Who need clay and cement when Allah swt had blessed us with the best quality wood on earth like tulin, teak, Java wood, etc. I was impressed by the person who said this as he must have a indepth knowledge about Jovo empires.

    maybe they know little of the roman empire? Of the buidings, roads and legal institutions they created”¦ many of which are still being used today”¦. what about the greek architecture of antiquity? Aqueducts, forums, ampitheathres? what of all the beautiful cathedrals built in europe in the dark ages?

    Mbak, once again you display your ignorance of Javanese culture. Mojopahit empire was on the same standing as the Roman’s and all other greats. Remember Admiral Cheng Ho was impressed by Javanese grandiosity and sent emissaries from China. We are not just advance in techonology but militarily superior than our contemporaries. We defeated the Kublai Khan’s army in our own turf TWICE! whence the Indian, Persian, Arab and the Roman crumpled to their knee. Our splendour architectural were second to none (the Borobudur for example). We have Wayang Kulit.

    If i’m not wrong there are still people in indonesia living in caves and trees”¦

    You must be talking about our Indonesian Greenies. We champion for the sake of the world’s environment.

    Wasalam.

    (p.s I hope Dawud is reading this to gain more insightful knowledge of Javanese’s golden age)

  29. avatar Janma says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 12:30 pm

    Cheng Ho was impressed by Javanese grandiosity and sent emissaries from China.

    “yeah…. a bunch of morons down there Zhu Di….. ripe for the picking….”

  30. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 10th, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    @ Mbak Janma

    “yeah”¦. a bunch of morons down there Zhu Di”¦.. ripe for the picking”¦.”

    Zhu Di? Pasting foreign words that I don’t understand when cornered is hardly civilized.

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