Learning Islam

Aug 7th, 2007, in IM Posts, by

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306 Comments on “Learning Islam”

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  1. avatar Dawud Farquhar says:
    January 5th, 2008 at 10:58 pm

    Aluang writes:

    I have not come across an overseas muslim explaining Islam WITHOUT bad-mouthing Christainity.

    What is ironic is that you can hide under the mask of Islam and bad-mouth its very fundamentals and symbols yet you take offence when your mistakes are clarified and questioned. Islam does not change according to personal whims and desires and in the light of texts, we can soon take you back to basics. You are welcome to your ‘kejawen, but I doubt any Muslim will allow you to impose your alien ideas on orthodox Islam.

    You seemed to have forgotten that you two belong to the same Abrahamic lineage?

    I hope this was your admittance that you are in actual fact a Christian (a kejawen Christian perhaps :^) I don’t think its fair for the ‘People of the Book’ to play on this fact to try to reconcile our differences. Yes, in humanity we are all one family and we should look after each other, when these differences become cataclysmic, we need to appreciate our differences and realign our ranks on a social level especially because we interact with each other daily and we do not want to lose our friendship.

    You have not yet tell me which sect of Islam will bring about ‘an educational revolution’ to Indonesia.

    When I mentioned the hadeeth about the splitting of the Ummah into 73 sects, the characteristics of the ‘saved group’ are clearly defined. It is not a sect but a jama’ah (lit. community). No Muslim should be proud in belonging to a ‘sect’; its a misnomer. The revivalist jama’ah is not a monolithic entity, it is a shared ideology that has its roots firmly established in the sources of Islam. The correct education and cultivation upon it is the catalyst that will have a postivie affect upon all spheres of life and state.

    I asked you this because I have all I see is chaos elsewhere, except peaceful Javanese Islam.

    Really, so what do you call the tragedy of Poso or the Maluku? Please don’t even attempt to explain this religious strife away. Java in fact has a very unique standing in Indonesia (not least because of its population) but the political and academic monopoly it has over other areas.

    How come you see it fit to teach your neighbour’s children to behave, when your own are behaving like thugs?

    I have not claimed to preach to others when my own house in not in order and when I became a Muslim in 1994, my first duty was towards my own family. Once you build a solid foundation it is but natural to continue on the path of life-long learning and share the knowledge and experiences with others. Islam is not a personal thing and there is no seperation of church and state (so to speak). That is why the ‘chaos’ you imagine is inspite of Islam and not because of it. Chaos is a direct result of Muslims moving away from Islam rather than embracing it entirely in its proper context.

    Shouldn’t you discipline your own kids first?

    You should visit our schools and education centres and see how much work we are doing in disseminating proper Islamic teachings and more than this, making sure that every child is equipped with the religious and secular education needed to make a positive mark on their immediate surroundings. This is a success that we are hoping to emulate in other Muslim countries by working closely with like-minded authentic organisations. KL, Pekanbaru, Surabaya and Makassar have already been ear-marked and if you are interested, I can send you more details.

    …admit Javanese got the right quranic interpretation and learn it from us.

    I’ve never read anything more funny than this statement of your. Islam was revealed in the Arabic language to be the last and complete message to mankind. It abrograted the previous ‘Abrahamic faiths’ and its preservation is promised by the Almighty in the Quran. There has been many attempts in history to change, twist and reinterpret its teachings and practise (you are not the first nor will you be the last), yet they are met with failure each time. Java is a place and its people who call themselves Muslims have to follow it according to the original sources and in a manner that is established by those sources. Islam is not a football that you can kick around and make to fit your agenda. Unlike Christianity (which should correctly be called ‘Paulism’) whenever anyone tries to distory Islam and its teachings and takes liberties with it, Muslims can easily prove them wrong by simply taking the matter back to the legislative sources (i.e. Quran and Sunnah) and their established interpretations by the classical works (many of which I am proud to say have been translated into Bahasa Indonesi). If one cannot learn Arabic, than means will be provided to make sure one cannot be led astray and left to their own devices :^)

    Use violence to remove us from our cultural identity. Is that what you are saying?

    There are many things in a person’s culture that are allowed to remain if he/she decides to embrace Islam. So long as their essence does not go against Islam, there is no problem and most cultures do have a general consensus on issues like crime and justice etc. In fact many things that were held as important by the people before the advent of Islam were reinforced after its establishment. The main thing is that the docrines of monotheism and its secondary and tertiary principles remain rigid.

    You want us to think it is okay to marry off our daughters at that age to be ‘educational re-evolved’ good muslim.

    You clearly have NOT read those links properly so I am not going to discuss this issue with you. In fact I leave this issue for the discerning reader to research and draw their own conclusions. I am not going to justify nor apologise for the Islamic Seerah which your intellect cannot comprehend. What is socially acceptable today in many societies was alien in the past and vice versa. In the Biblical times (and text is full of such happenings) a woman was declared as such once her menses began and thus was able to bear children. In fact even today we read of 12, 13 year old females having children. However the point of this marriage was not as you ignorantly claim (and this has been clarified many times in the face of Christian missionary assults like yours). No Muslim would question the wisdom behind this marriage (which you clearly are not) that produced the best of female intellectuals and role model for Muslim women to emulate. Please go back to the links.

    What an ignorant statement re Dayaks as mass murderers.

    I hope you got the point I was making. I also stated “but unlike you, I do not taint all your community with the brush of your head-hunting past” (so please refrain from chopping my words and keep them in their proper context, otherwise your desperation will become all too apparent :^)

    shouldn’t you learn from Dayak Kaharingan?

    I think you should since its becoming clear that your very confused as to what or who you are, lol.

    No independent local and foreign reports have yet blamed them for the carnage.

    You really need to take your blinkers off and broaden your reading horizon, clearly you are missing a lot of news items. Just because news comes from ‘foreign reports’ does not make it correct. Here in the West we have a very sanitised media that regurgitates popular opinion rather than the facts on the ground.

    Shouldn’t we avoid Abrahamic religion altogether?

    You really do blow hot and cold don’t you? I think you should avoid them because you clearly do not know what each one stands for.

    Adios.

  2. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 6th, 2008 at 1:23 am

    @ Dawud

    I do not know what you are trying to achieve by assuming me a Christian (yet again). I, like most pri are muslims by birth, encouraged by our government for national unity.
    The idea of a divine figure shagging an odd virgin do not sit well with me, so I was never a Christian to begin with. Throughout my life, I was more inclined toward Islam (NU – traditionalist version), though never a pratising one. I had always known through Islamic studies that our Prophet Mohammad pbuh had a pre-teen wife but never give much thought about it until recently. The advent of internet had exposed more and more of a morally unethical Middle Eastern subculture incompatible to refined Javanese’s. I am sure our forefathers were not aware of this when accepting Arab migrants. Beneath their benign and friendly smiles, one can hide their sexual behaviour.

    How can you accuse me of bad-mouthing Islam when I am asking questions that had been bugging most Indonesian? You hardly clarify anything. On the contrary you are backing pedophily by saying it was okay back then. You ‘clarified’ my ‘mistake’ by mentioning biblical times; by saying ‘In fact even today we read of 12, 13 year old females having children’. We are talking about 6 years old getting married to a 53 years old, then deflowered at 9 years old. Other true muslims like yourself say this little 6 years old girl is madly in love with this grandfather figure.

    Let’s get this straight:

    A 6 years old Arab girl is just the same as a 6 years old Chinese or Javanese girl in the 7th century. They all have milk teeth, and not ready for sex.

    Even if I agree with you, why would an old man marry a pre-teen girl, and left a young widow to defend herself? I hope you explain this in your next reply.

    No Muslim would question the wisdom behind this marriage (which you clearly are not) that produced the best of female intellectuals and role model for Muslim women to emulate. Please go back to the links.

    Friend Dawud, I agree with you that no muslim will question this immoral union, but we are not ordinary muslims. We, Javanese Muslims are descendant of the Great Mojopahit Empire. We question anything that is not morally right for our society. We just don’t penetrate pre-teen girl to be good muslim.

    Read this first so you can get a grip of what percentage of Muslims are Javanese traditionalists. Islam in Modern Indonesia.

  3. avatar Dawud Farquhar says:
    January 6th, 2008 at 10:51 pm

    Aluang writes:

    >> I do not know what you are trying to achieve by assuming me a Christian (yet again).

    You are judged by your words and not what you claim. Your allegations and perpetual lies are typical of a Christian missionary. I have come across many of your types before and after my conversion, and it’ll be unfortunate for you that you’ve crossed paths with someone like me :^) You can be whatever you want to be, what we won’t tolerate anymore is your cunning and conniving attempts to malign Islam whilst claiming to be a Muslim, comprehende?

    >> I, like most pri are muslims by birth,

    ‘Muslim’ by birth, but pagan and panthiest by nature, what an irony, lol.

    >> The idea of a divine figure shagging an odd virgin do not sit well with me,

    What on earth are you talking about? Without evidence for your all too common ignorant outbursts only cements the fact that you are not interested in truth and facts, you are here to disseminate your nonesense and hope that they subconsciencly accept your lies at face value with no recourse to counter them (which can be done easily as they’ll see).

    Let’s look deeper into this fallacy of yours: http://answering-christianity.com/ac.htm (search for key words)

    You also need to learn what the difference between a question and a statement is because you are assuming a wrong idea and making it appear as a definitive statement. For example, if I were to ask you the following question: “Is your mother out of prison yet?” – This appears to be a definitive statement (yet it is also a question which you wont be able to answer with a yes or a no). This is similar to the lies you deem to be statements yet you leave no space for the unweary reader of your ignorant-filled posts to see your real agenda :^)

    >> so I was never a Christian to begin with.

    To begin with? And now you appreciate most of the trinitarian/pagan ideas that were concocted during the Nicea Council? Your kejawen religion is as confusing as you are. From thus onwards, I will call you ‘Kejaweni’ with all due respect as I think this is a better description of your identity.

    >> Throughout my life, I was more inclined toward Islam (NU – traditionalist version), though never a pratising one.

    Being ‘inclined’ and actually being one are 2 seperate matters. You cannot be inclined and be practising at the same time, you cannot be hot and cold at the same time, you cannot be black and white as the same time. The Qur’an specifically states: “O believers enter into Islam completely and do not follow the footsteps of Shaitan, surely he is your clear-cut
    enemy…” [trans of meaning - 2:208]

    This ayaah calls Muslims to enter Islam fully. Just saying the shahada or being born and raised in a Muslim family doesn’t make us a believers. Entering Islam fully means to follow the theoratical and practical teachings of Islam without any exceptions, without any additions, without any deletions and without any reservations…

    _____________________________

    >> The advent of internet had exposed more and more of a morally unethical Middle Eastern subculture incompatible to refined Javanese’s.

    Complete and utter nonesense”¦ Such aspects of Islam have been misunderstood by the orientalists for centuries and have long been discussed and debated. The internet did not bring this issue to the fore, it has been there for centuries. This is only an excuse for you to continue in your wreckless path of self-inflicted ignorance. We have and will continue to unmask such palaver so that people can see you for other than what you portray yourself to be and how unscrupulous your agenda is.

    >> I am sure our forefathers were not aware of this when accepting Arab migrants.

    You are one sick puppy Aluang and just because your restricted intellect cannot understand or appreciate something does not mean it is wrong or immoral. Your Creator knows far better what is good for the humanity He created and sustains. You are a typical example of an individual who has no interest in learning beyond the basics (which you seem to falter at as well). Your sincerity is judged by how much you want to learn and the level of your knowledge (or the lack thereof) seems easily influenced by popular culture and the internet with no recourse back to the sources and Arabic language.

    >> How can you accuse me of bad-mouthing Islam when I am asking questions that had been bugging most Indonesian?

    You are not asking questions sir. You are making statements that you have pre-meditated and concluded without any evidence and proofs to the contarary. You have mocked Islam’s Messenger and parts of Islamic teachings and you expect us to believe you are asking questions (or whether you are even a Muslim?) Even a blind person can see from your above posts how vile your toungue and agenda is against Islam.

    >> You hardly clarify anything. On the contrary you are backing pedophily by saying it was okay back then.

    The truth is that no amount of information and evidence if good enough for you because you are not here to learn and clarify your gross mistakes and ignorace. You are here to spread your mischief and your INCOMPETENCE to read my earlier links proves this point. Your simplifying and generalisation the comprehensive information in those links points to your insincerity.

    >> A 6 years old Arab girl”¦ and not ready for sex.

    6? Sex? You are an liar because the references prove otherwise”¦ Let’s go back to the links (which you still have not read thoroughly enough):

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html

    http://www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/prophet_aisha.htm

    http://muslim-responses.com/Marriage_with_Aisha/Marriage_with_Aisha_

    http://www.crescentlife.com/thisthat/feminist%20muslims/aisha_bint_abu_bakr.htm

  4. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 6th, 2008 at 11:10 pm

    I wrote:

    You seemed to have forgotten that you two belong to the same Abrahamic lineage?

    To which you reply:

    I hope this was your admittance that you are in actual fact a Christian (a kejawen Christian perhaps :^) …

    I was being polite. In hindsight, I should have written,

    “You seemed to have forgotten that you two belong to the same Garbage Dump?”

    Probably this is the only language you understand.

    ____________________________________________________________

    I wrote:

    I asked you this because I have all I see is chaos elsewhere, except peaceful Javanese Islam.

    You reply:

    Really, so what do you call the tragedy of Poso or the Maluku? Please don’t even attempt to explain this religious strife away. Java in fact has a very unique standing in Indonesia (not least because of its population) but the political and academic monopoly it has over other areas.

    Instead of shooting yourself in your own foot, these areas that you mentioned (Poso and Maluku) are predominantly purist ‘jama’ah’ muslims, the same one you are trying to flog over here. :) Their ethnicity are not Javanese. IF only they had practised Javanese Islam, there would be no bloodshed. Hope you at least agree with me on this.

    To save yourself from future embarrassment I suggest you learn a little about Indonesia’s ethnicities; you will find that where Javanese Islam prevails, people of other faiths live peacefully. Hint: Central and East Java.

    ____________________________________________________________

    I wrote:

    You want us to think it is okay to marry off our daughters at that age to be ‘educational re-evolved’ good muslim.

    You reply:

    You clearly have NOT read those links properly so I am not going to discuss this issue with you. In fact I leave this issue for the discerning reader to research and draw their own conclusions. …

    Leaving me with gibberish links, and expecting me to be convinced. If only the world is that gullible; well I am certain one group of people is not that credulous, and that group is Javanese.

    Figure it out yourself:

    Quran is for all mankind, past and future. Then you said:

    What is socially acceptable today in many societies was alien in the past and vice versa.

    You are being blasphemous. Remember it is hell fire for you in Islam.

    In fact even today we read of 12, 13 year old females having children.

    By your own rationale, it is okay. Dawud, I think you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Tell me, 12, 13 years old females having children by their nearly 60 years old husband? Would you marry off your 6 years old or 13 years old daughter to someone who claimed to be a prophet? Usually muslims just stay clear of these debate, and disavow the hadithes. I am afraid you have pedophilic intent.

    Salam.

  5. avatar Dawud Farquhar says:
    January 6th, 2008 at 11:58 pm

    Aluang Kejaweni… No matter how much you want to wish it away, Islam remains the modern alternative. Islam is the only viable solution for all people at all times and places. Humans by themselves cannot determine what is good and bad for each other for all of the time.

    Man-made laws are often defined by a person’s personal motives, emotions, limited intellect, beliefs and prejudices. Thus, they are designed with these built-in flaws. This is why human law has so many loop-holes and deficiencies. It is always requiring change, modification and re-modification, time after time!

    So when Allaah SWT revealed the Qur’an and the example of the Messenger through his Sunnah, all the details about good and bad, or right and wrong, were not left for the limited nature of mankind to define for themselves. Allaah says:

    “And We have sent down to you the Book (Qur’an) as an EXPLANATION of EVERYTHING and a GUIDANCE, a Mercy and glad tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allaah as Muslims)” [trans of Surah An-Nahl 16:89]

    Humans lack perfect knowledge as well as perfect wisdom. No matter how hard we try, we will never attain the perfect way of life by our own thinking and interpretation. This is the reason why Allaah being the Most Wise, sent us the Qur’an and Messenger, to show us this practical and organised way of life.

    Allaah SWT, being Perfect, in His Wisdom and Knowledge, perfected a complete way of life for us. He has set His limitations and rules, all of which are beneficial to mankind, and therefore, do not need changing:

    http://www.al-sunnah.com/call_to_islam/articles/islam_the_modern_alternative.html

    Islam is not the same as some other religions from the point of view that it is not confined to a certain place of worship or a certain act, or acts, of worship. Islam teaches it’s followers that every single aspect of their life, from eating, to drinking, to sleeping, and everything in-between can be done in one of two ways: Either a way that pleases God, or one that displeases Him.

    Islam is also a social, economic, and political way of life. Every single aspect of human existence is governed by the law of Islam. A Muslim is commanded to respect his elders and to show humility and respect to his parents. He is also commanded to show kindness and mercy to those who are younger or weaker than himself as well as all of God’s beasts.

    A Muslim is commanded to have nothing whatsoever to do with usury, gambling, or alcohol. A Muslim, however, is not passive and weak. He is commanded that if he sees the laws of God being violated or an injustice being committed, he must stand up for the truth and fight to establish the law of God, defend the oppressed, and establish justice and peace.

    Further authentic websites:

    http://www.as-sahwah.com
    http://islamtoday.com/discover_islam.cfm?cat_id=6&sub_cat_id=41
    http://theclearpath.com

    Looking forward to your next set of amusing assumptions and stereotypes sir…

  6. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 12:16 am

    Let’s go to the first link you provided,

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html

    Pedo Dawud, I should address you as such for now.

    Tell me where I have misunderstood you from the link you gave.

    These authentic hadithes (Sahîh al-Bukhari, Sahîh Muslim and Sunan Abû Dâwûd) state that the age of Aisha is 6 years old and Prophet Mohammad deflowered her at 9 years old. It was embarrassing for the Ummah. To save this embarrassment, someone had to extend Aisha’s age for non-muslims to swallow. Muslims are not allowed to question these immoral union between a child and an past-middle-age old man.

    Then came along a Bule aka Abû Imân cAbd ar-Rahmân Robert Squires who restudied the authentic hadithes, and think Aisha’s age should be 14 or 15. Hooray, it saved the Ummah.

    For any clear thinking person, why would an old man at age 53 want to marry and deflower a 6 years old girl? A 53 years old man in 7th century Arab is as old as a 70 years old with primitive health care at those time. EVEN at 14 or 15 years old, it is still NOT OKAY. Dawud, you have not explain why it should be examplary for manking to leave young widows to defend themselves. We will go to your 2nd link if you could answer this adequately.

  7. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 12:24 am

    Aluang A. Bayang said:

    Muslims are not allowed to question these immoral union between a child and an past-middle-age old man.

    me says: Ahhhh! therefore I can, I am NOT a Muslim.

    “Watch it! Crazy Old Man, you don’t want to be on the run like Sir Salman Rushdie”

    me: “Hey! why not if it means being knighted and some opportunities opening?

    “Okay, if you must, but make sure you say it while you’re in the trench”

    me: “I’ve changed it to an air raid bunker”

    “Whatever suits you. Just don’t get caught like Saddam in some rat hole”

  8. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 12:28 am

    @ Dawud,

    How many 14 or 15 years old girl fall in love with a grandfather figure? Next time I see a muslim man holding a child’s hand, should I ask him,

    “Is that your grand daughter?” or

    “Is that your wife?”

    or maybe I go over to the little girl and ask her,

    “Is that your grandpa?” or

    “Is that your husband?”

    Take your dirty religion back to your den, The Great Asian Race aren’t easily fooled.

  9. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 12:34 am

    Hmmmm,

    In all likelihood, Little Bo Peep holding the hand of the Muslim grandfather figure would answer:

    “I am one of those you know leeeetle people that you also see on WWF Slam Dunk and whenever the Circus is in town”

  10. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 12:41 am

    @ iamisaid

    Dawud Farquhar Says:

    January 5th, 2008 at 10:58 pm

    …No Muslim would question the wisdom behind this marriage (which you clearly are not) that produced the best of female intellectuals and role model for Muslim women to emulate. Please go back to the links. …

    It is written by Dawud himself. As a TRUE MUSLIM, you must not question about pedoplilia because it is halal. Look west to Pakistan, Iran, and all ME countries where little girls are married off to old man many times their age. Bules with pedo intent are converting en masse to Islam to get this unholy indulgence legalized.

    __________________________

    And from the name Dawud Farquhar, he is a Bule convert. We Asians are not that perverted. Javanese don’t mind adopting Islam for National unity sake, but not adopt these perverted carnal desire. A 53 years old man in 7th century would be as old as 70 to 80 in these days, because back then there was no health care. OR unless,

    narrated from Abu Hurayra and Abu Sa`id al-Khudri by al-Bukhari and in the Sunan:

    If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote.

    That is 7th century Islamic advance science.

  11. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 12:51 am

    Oh! Anak A. Aluang,

    My apologies.

    Dawud Farquhar you are a badddddddddd boy. How could you say that?

    ~ me rushes off to talk to my wife.

    “Darlingggg, please lock up our daughters, I’ll tell you why later”

    wife: Why?

    me: You women are so dumb…. I said I’ll tell you later. Arggggh women…always want to know why…. (grumbles as Old Men do and walks back to his computer)

    ~ reflects for a moment.

    Geeeez, I don’t have any daughters!

    ~ me rushes out again…..

    “Darling, forget about what I just said…..

    wife: Why?

    me: Oh for the love of God! Arghhhhh! NEVERMIND.

  12. avatar Dawud Farquhar says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 12:56 am

    Aluang Kejaweni writes:

    >> It is written by Dawud himself… you must not question about pedoplilia because it is halal

    I hope this statement of your is proof enough for your lies and the misrepresentation of other poster’s message. Islam does NOT condone pedoplilia and your nonsense about this marriage cannot be described as ‘pedoplilia’ in any way shape or form.

    Let’s go back to the urls, which you will not be allowed to avoid in their entirety:

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html
    http://www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/prophet_aisha.htm
    http://muslim-responses.com/Marriage_with_Aisha/Marriage_with_Aisha_
    http://www.crescentlife.com/thisthat/feminist%20muslims/aisha_bint_abu_bakr.htm

    Try not to put your own words in other people’s mouths and maybe you’ll be taken seriously.

    >> What is socially acceptable today in many societies was alien in the past and vice versa.

    Don’t tell me that I have to teach you English as well as Islam on this board? Your grasp of both seem shaky. I was talking about human acceptances. I did not state that the Qur’an has to be ‘modified’ in order to ‘fit’ into todays social norms of the remaining 75% of humanity that are non-Muslim.

    >> Usually muslims just stay clear of these debate, and disavow the hadithes

    However you term as ‘Muslim’ then we will take that with a huge pinch of salt, lol. Its funny how non-Muslims like you want to speak on behalf of Java’s Muslims when you don’t see the change that is taking place under your own nose :^) Only an ignoble fool would become an apologist for the divine faith of Islam and not counter the lies that is spread my malice individuals like you. Not only do you fail to read into matters that you bring up (and fail to read my responses), you pick and choose what you want to see and take it out of context in the true style of your missionary mastery.

    >> We will go to your 2nd link if you could answer this adequately.

    ‘adequately’? As I said before, not about of information and proof is enough or adequate for a pre-meditated conniver like you. You have missed the most important aspects of that link and have chosen only to highlight what you want because you think it furthers your cause. Lost cases like you are many (and so are the facts to redeem you).

    >> For any clear thinking person…

    That is why we should leave this issue to the discerning reader to do their own research and draw their own conclusions.

  13. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 12:56 am

    Aluang A. Bayang,

    “If a fly falls into one of your containers [of food or drink], immerse it completely (falyaghmis-hu kullahu) before removing it, for under one of its wings there is venom and under another there is its antidote.”

    Whoever said that….just in case I quote the wrong person. Ha ha ha ha.

    Spanish Fly perhaps?

    Hmmmm aw mannnnn, that be it – MERDEKAAAAAAAAAAA !

    ___________________________

    Oh mannn, this needs a panel of referees”¦.

    Aluang Kejaweni writes:

    Who is Aluang Kejaweni may I ask? Let’s be civilised huh.

    ____________________________

    Hmmmm, IF “Learning Islam” is like taking a walk in a maze, how come they’re so many Muslims in this world?

  14. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 1:04 am

    iamisaid,

    Not only your daughters unsafe, the kambings in your backyard had to be kept away from this creep.

    See:
    Kambing amput

  15. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 1:06 am

    iamisaid,

    Not only your daughters unsafe, the kambings in your backyard had to be kept away from this creep.

    YIKESSSSSS !

    How about my two female kelinci that I have back in my Indonesian house?

  16. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 1:08 am

    Let’s us be civilized. If Dawud has a point to present, I am always willing to listen. Afterall, there is no harm to learn more. Tell me what I have misunderstood from your 1st link.

    I repeat here:

    Tell me where I have misunderstood you from the link you gave.

    These authentic hadithes (Sahîh al-Bukhari, Sahîh Muslim and Sunan Abû Dâwûd) state that the age of Aisha is 6 years old and Prophet Mohammad deflowered her at 9 years old. It was embarrassing for the Ummah. To save this embarrassment, someone had to extend Aisha’s age for non-muslims to swallow. Muslims are not allowed to question these immoral union between a child and an past-middle-age old man.

    Then came along a Bule aka Abû Imân cAbd ar-Rahmân Robert Squires who restudied the authentic hadithes, and think Aisha’s age should be 14 or 15. Hooray, it saved the Ummah.

  17. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 1:11 am

    See:
    Kambing amput

    equals:

    Imam Khomeini – Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution

    On sex with Animals: “The meat of horses, mules, or donkeys is not recommended. It is strictly forbidden if the animal was sodomized while alive by a man. In that case, the animal must be taken outside the city and sold.”

    Goodness Gracious! How Outrageous!

    That means I have to fornicate with my two kelincis so that they will they will not ever be eaten.

    YUCKKKKKS !

  18. avatar Dawud Farquhar says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 1:16 am

    Aluang Kejaweni, here is another site that you can add to that list and will ‘help’ you understand that you are having difficulty to understand:

    http://www.galway.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel6.htm

    iamisaid, your question is a very common one and I have answered it previously (all you have to do is browse above). In Islam, the criteria for right and wrong is given and the principles laid out by the Qur’an and Sunnah are all too evident for a sincere Muslim to follow. Islamic knowledge is not owned by anyone nor does anyone have a monopoly over it. It is very easy to read, believe in, understand and implement Islam.

    On a more simpler level, learning Islam is not like taking a walk through a maze because with a maze, you never know where you will end up and there are no sign posts. In Islam we have the sources that giude us to the right direction and this guidance on the straight path is something that every Muslim asks for when he recites Surah Fatihah.

    The reason for the splitting of the Muslims into so many sects and groups is something that has already been prophecised. Its causes and its remedy are laid our clearly, all you have to do is simply look for the knowledge because knowledge has to be sought (it does not come to you).

    >> Imam Khomeini…

    Instead of cutting and pasting nonesense from websites, you need to go down one level and seek information on Shi’ism. Shi’ites have over 10 sects within themselves and Khomeini belonged to the Raafidah sect which is most extreme of Shi’ism and which even some Shia detest. Raafidah is classified as a seperate religion by Muslims because its fundamental teaching and belief system is very different from Islam. Therefore your purpose of quoting Khomeini is without logic or relevance.

    Instead of trying the top-bottom approachto learning, it would be better for you if you attempted to learn islam from bottom-up from its sources and not get influenced by any Tom, Dick or Harry.

    Adios.

  19. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 1:21 am

    @ iamisaid

    There is a clear distinction between Javanese Islam and Overseas Islam (the one Dawud is trying to flog here).

    Dawud’s defence was repeating that I lied and provided more links, he offerred no explanation. I am trying to get him focussed onto one topic at a time.

    iamisaid – a teaser for you. Ask Dawud what is the penalty for apostasy. :)

  20. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 1:24 am

    Dawud Farquhar

    iamisaid, your question is a very common one and I have answered it previously (all you have to do is browse above). In Islam, the criteria for right and wrong is given and the principles laid out by the Qur’an and Sunnah are all too evident for a sincere Muslim to follow. Islamic knowledge is not owned by anyone nor does anyone have a monopoly over it. It is very easy to read, believe in, understand and implement Islam.

    On a more simpler level, learning Islam is not like taking a walk through a maze because with a maze, you never know where you will end up and there are no sign posts. In Islam we have the sources that giude us to the right direction and this guidance on the straight path is something that every Muslim asks for when he recites Surah Fatihah.

    The reason for the splitting of the Muslims into so many sects and groups is something that has already been prophecised. Its causes and its remedy are laid our clearly, all you have to do is simply look for the knowledge because knowledge has to be sought (it does not come to you).

    I have many many Muslim friends in the country that I live in, which is not Indonesia.

    Several of them are practising Muslims. They tell me that to follow the teachings of Islam on earth is utter madness and beyond the capability of a mortal.

    To achieve what Islam preaches they say, would incarnate a mortal on earth. And that is why they say, they keep on talking bullsh*t all the time about Islam as a way to comfort themselves that they are on the straight and narrow.

    None of this is coming from me as an opinion and not said in mockery or to derogate the Faith or the followers of Islam. Believe me that I say it as I have been told by many Muslims here. This is how they say it and this is how I echo it almost word for word.

    ___________________

    Dawud Farquhar,

    Meet the parrot iamisaid.

    Dawud what is the penalty for apostasy?

    ~squalk squalkkkkk

  21. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 1:29 am

    @ Dawud

    For any clear thinking person, why would an old man at age 53 want to marry and deflower a 6 years old girl? A 53 years old man in 7th century Arab is as old as a 70 years old with primitive health care at those time. EVEN at 14 or 15 years old, it is still NOT OKAY. Dawud, you have not explain why it should be examplary for manking to leave young widows to defend themselves.

    If you can’t answer the above questions posed to you. Maybe you should allow a Javanese Muslim to answer them for you. We Asians can answer this, believe it or not.

  22. avatar Dawud Farquhar says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 1:31 am

    iamisaid Says:

    >> Several of them are practising Muslims.

    Contradiction in terms sir. One cannot be a ‘practising’ Muslim and yet claim that.

    >> … is utter madness and beyond the capability of a mortal.

    This is also in contradiction with what Islam tells us. Allah SWT is the creator of mankind and therefore knows his nature more intricately than mankind himself. Allah SWT has therefore chosen for us a religion best suited to the nature of mankind, a religion that goes neither to the extremes of hardship nor of laxity, but instead provides a middle path; in other words, a religion of ease. The Qur’an states:

    “Allah intends for you ease, and does not want to make things difficult for you” [trans of 2:185]

    “Allah does not want to place you in difficulty” [trans of 5:6]

    Such easiness is well explained in the Sunnah where the Messenger said “Religion is easy…”, he also said; “The best of your religion, is the easiest.”

    So it seems that your friends are looking for excuses to excuse themselves from practising the very basics of what Islam requires of us. It does not ask us to move mountains or work miracles, lol.

    ________________________

    Aluang Kejaweni writes:

    >> “¦he offerred no explanation.

    If you really want me to cut and paste extensively from those links, I am more than happy to. I have had a lot of personal input to those sites that have been researched extensively and approved.

    >> If you can’t answer the above questions posed to you”¦

    They have been answered, but the pity is that you are not able to read and comperhend the information therein.

    I’m not going to waste time here and discuss secondary and tertiary Islamic issues with an Islamophobe like you when clearly you show a real lack of basisc knowledge of simple fundamentals. I will return you back to basics and list here only a few of the authentic websites that will help you in this endevour. When you are ready to move forward, we will know.

  23. avatar Aluang Anak Bayang says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 1:41 am

    Ass. Dawud Farquhar

    What I asked is not Islamophobic? Suppose I am a disinformed and misinformed about Islam, shouldn’t you point me in the right direction. The 1st link you gave me was what I have perceived. I will repeat it for a 3rd time,

    These authentic hadithes (Sahîh al-Bukhari, Sahîh Muslim and Sunan Abû Dâwûd) state that the age of Aisha is 6 years old and Prophet Mohammad deflowered her at 9 years old. It was embarrassing for the Ummah. To save this embarrassment, someone had to extend Aisha’s age for non-muslims to swallow. Muslims are not allowed to question these immoral union between a child and an past-middle-age old man.

    Then came along a Bule aka Abû Imân cAbd ar-Rahmân Robert Squires who restudied the authentic hadithes, and think Aisha’s age should be 14 or 15. Hooray, it saved the Ummah.

    Maybe it is because of my deficient in English understanding, kindly point to where I translate it wrong. Saying that I lie won’t get us anywhere. Waiting for your explanation. No more links before I understand where the mistakes are.

    Salam.

  24. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 1:41 am

    Oh mannn Dawud Farquhar,

    You must be reasonable my mannn. You can’t go with that sanctimonious attitude of being holier than thou with your fellow members of the same Faith.

    Is that what Islam preaches? A sense of superiority amongst their own faithful?

    Jeepers, you portray Islam as a religion that split hairs till there’s no tomorrow.

    Oh and one thing more that I remember. These Muslim pals of mine say, that a Muslim who talks too much about Islam isn’t what Islam is.

    They tell me that to be Islam would mean having received the Nur. I do not know exactly in Islamic terms what that means. But they explained to me that it is something like having reached the height of sanctity. And that a Muslim who has achieved Islam would be one who oozes with the teachings of the Faith and does not have to open his mouth. His very being, his life, his exemplary living it is enough.

    That is how they explain Islam.

    Now, if you have a different opinion, I am not here to say whether it is right or it is wrong. Neither have you the latitude to be say that your fellow Muslims who PRACTISE their Faith is questionable. That is left to God to judge I would rather say.

  25. avatar Dawud Farquhar says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 1:57 am

    Aluang Kejaweni writes

    >> What I asked is not Islamophobic?

    Your agenda is Islamophoic and your refusal to read the links proves you are not interested in the truth.

    >> Javanese Muslims are descendant of the Great Mojopahit Empire.

    And who were the majapahit’s descendant of? The social evolution and human migration is least impacted on modern human psychology and only 60% of Java’s Muslims can trace their ancestery back to the majapahits. This has no real bearing on Islamic revival amongst the races.

    >> the same one you are trying to flog over here.

    Not really, they have no resemblence to puritan orthodoxy. I would suggest you read upon a heretical sect of khawarij (lit. khawarij’ite), they were an early 1st cent hijri extremists that continue to spread their poison today. Since you think you know what I ‘flogging’ over there, I can safely say what I am not flogging and it isn’t your manipluated and reinvented religion of Kejaweni.

    ___________________________

    iamisaid Says:

    >> You can’t go with that sanctimonious attitude of being holier than thou with your fellow members of the same Faith.

    Holier than who? You and your Aluang side-kick (unless you are the same person) have clearly demonstrated that your religion is not Islam but a home-brewed Javanese Kejaweni cult, therefore your charge does not ring true.

    >> Is that what Islam preaches?

    If you want to know what Islam preaches, simply ask. What it certainly does not preach is what you two are trying so hard to force it to mean, lol.

    >> you portray Islam as a religion that split hairs till there’s no tomorrow.

    Split hairs? Is defending the honour of our Messenger and protecting Islamic teachings from corruption as splitting hair. Please keep digging a deeper hole for your credibility and your claim of being a Muslim will ring true”¦ NOT.

    You, like Kejaweni have a poor grasp of Islamic teachings and its sources and I can’t but pity you. That’s why I am keeping you company on this board because I was also a non-Muslim like you and do not want to be questioned by God for leaving you two in the darkness of your own ignorant abyss.

    >> I do not know exactly in Islamic terms what that means.

    Or anything else for that matter, ooops :^)

    >> Now, if you have a different opinion, I am not here to say whether it is right or it is wrong.

    Opinions are only opinions when they have no basis in the Islamic sources. When evidence is produced and facts made clear, they no longer remain opinions but become binding in Islamic law. Clearly your Kejawen does not think so.

    >> That is left to God to judge I would rather say.

    You are right, Allah SWT is the final Judge and He’s judgement has already gone forth. One cannot throw the divine message behind the back and reject its general and finer points and then claim that only God can judge me (for rejecting He’s message).

    My email in case you want to take this private: dawudfarquhar@walla.com.

  26. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 2:08 am

    Dawud Farquhar,

    You said:

    Your agenda is Islamophoic and your refusal to read the links proves you are not interested in the truth.

    How do you measure pro-Islam or Islam=phobia? Is the Internet links your benchmark? It appears to be throughout your posts.

    Is the Islam Faith and its practise based on Internet Links? Hey, I guess we’re talking about Religion and that would mean referring to the Quran.

    Granted, there will be differences in the interpretations but still it would be the Quran and not something like the Internet where it is a free-for-all and who knows what’s the validity of what appears on the Internet? The world wide web is anything goes. So therefore is Islam anything goes by your continual references to the Internet to support whatever it is that you’re defending or postulating?

    I am not impressed by your replies thus far. Sorry to say that and I do not mean to hurt your pride or your feelings.

    May Allah guide you,

    Good Night Dawud.

  27. avatar tomaculum says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 2:56 am

    You, like Kejaweni have a poor grasp of Islamic teachings and its sources and I can’t but pity you.
    Dawud, what is Kejaweni? Do you know it really? When not, then maybe you should try first to inform you and give your statement(s). Else you will blame yourself.

    >> I do not know exactly in Islamic terms what that means.

    Or anything else for that matter, ooops :^)
    And you know exactly in Islamic terms and everything else for that matter? Maybe you should say: I believe in my Islam.
    I think we are to much involved to judge which one is better, your Islam or the Islam-Kejawen (not Kejawen-Islam).
    May your God (Allah) forgive you and open your eyes, Dawud. :)

  28. avatar Sputjam says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 9:59 am

    Dawud farquhar stated -

    Allah says in the Qur’an: “This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favour on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.” [Qur'an 5:3]

    Should be -
    “Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission/Islam as the SYSTEM for you”¦” (Quran 5:3)

    A true muslim believes in God, the hereafter and do good deeds and is righteous. Nothing more is required.

    Present day people of the muslim religion have reverted to being pagans, by prostrating before a meteoric stone in mecca, and some do this 5 times a day.

    Idol worshippers and pagans will never understand the truth in islam. Islam was never meant to be a religion. Religion are for the pagans in Arabia, Pharoah, The jews after Moses, the Romans and The christians who have become people who worshipped a man.

    Did jesus know about the Christian religion and the corrupted bible? Obviously no. He was against all froms of religious ideas but the jewish people during the time of jesus, with their rabbis just does not comprehend. They required something to worship. Nor did the Romans umderstood what he stood for.

    Similarly, Mohamed brought messages from God as he was living in a Arab community who were pagan worshippers. Did the Arabs received him warmly and embraced his messages? No way Jose. They treated Mohamed like dirt, called him a liar and a crazy man.( All in the Koran).

    Today’s muslim will testify to the hadith and the sunnah, books supposedly written by companions of the Mohamed. Sometimes the muslim clerics will use the sunnah and hadith to override the guides written in the Koran. Why do present day people of the religion of islam hold such books in high regards when Mohamed himself dare not deviate from God’s text.

    It is my belief that after the death of Mohamed, the pagan arabs deviated the messages found in the Koran, by wrongly translating certain text, and creating the sunnah and hadiths to propagate their pagan faith.

    People who idol worship are blind to their actions. Ask the christians and the muslims. They will give all kinds of reason why they do so. Would you follow the advice of priest/popes/imams and clerics when the prophets themselves were just messengers of God’s messages and never claim to be a religious scholar or head of a community?

    The people who subscribe to religion are forced to pay all kinds of religious tax. Does these money go to God, or the religious scholars get to pocket the money? When you pay imams or priest to bless certain things, have they been authorized by God to do so? I doubt it.

    So to those who believe in God and the hereafter, stop your ritual worship and do not subscribe to any religion. Be righteous and focus on doing good deeds. It is that simple. Be humble always, for God hates the arrogants. And do not aggress, for God does not like the aggressor.

    May I leave you with this :-

    2:190 You shall confront in the path of God against those who confront against you – and there shall be no aggression. Indeed God – He dislikes those who are aggressive. 2:191 And you shall confront them wherever you are confronted – and expel them from wherever they expel you – and slandering is worse than fighting. And do not confront them by the sanctioned consented decrees – unless they confront you in it. Therefore, when they confront you – you must confront them. That would be the just response for those who do not trust. 2:192 Thus – if they refrain – then, God is forgiver – merciful. 2:193 And you must confront them until there is no more slandering. And the orderly way of life is for God alone. Therefore if they refrain – thus there shall be no more hostility – except over those who are unjust.

    The people who are most unjust presently, happens to be followers of the religion of islam. They will deny those of other faiths their rights to propagate, hinder true muslims their voice to be heard, and deny the warnings given by God concerning priest and idol worship/paganism. These people have eyes, but they cannot see truth from falsehood.

  29. avatar iamisaid says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 12:06 pm

    In Praise of Dawud Farquhar

    A Muslim, I am not. Aluang A. Bayang, that I am not too. I go by my pen name iamisaid at this Blog.

    I am a born Catholic who lives with an open mind, respects the beliefs and practice of Religions of others.

    I speak here of Dawud Farquhar. I speak of a person who professes to be a convert to the Faith of Islam. I hold nothing against that. I respect that.

    As a convert to Islam, Dawud herein shows a religious fervour. I consider that admirable. Nothing wrong in having religious fervour as long as one keeps it in check.

    Discussions with Dawud exhibit him as a religious bigot. His stance on Islam at the article “Learning Islam” would make any non-Islam to frown upon the manner in which Islam is projected by a follower of Islam. In this instance by a person whose pen name is Dawud Farquhar.

    I concede that I am unworthy to be in discussion on a Religion that I have not embraced. But then the forum where the discussion was held is at the post titled, “Learning Islam”.

    Alas, for Dawud Farquhar, a follower of Islam who liberally chastises other followers of Islam as being deviant. Here is a man who by his word behaviour has taken upon himself the role of God in passing judgement about other Muslims.

    Here is a man who artfully dodges questions, refusing to answer them when asked, choosing only those that he deems fit to answer throughout a discussion while being obsessed by his egoistic pursuit to indoctrinate others on what he honourably believes is the one and the only true way to practice Islam. Here is a man to whom I shall give the rightful honour in originating “Global Islam” so to speak.

    Here is a man who makes a mockery of the practice of Islam by his conduct. I would rather believe that Islam is a glorious Religion that does not ask of its faithful to behave in a manner exemplified by Dawud Farqahar. Islam or any other Religion for the same reason.

    Please remember that I am a non-Muslim. Therefore, I consider the behaviour of Dawud towards his fellow Muslims and as well as the unworthy non-Muslim that I am over a matter at “Learning Islam” an experience that is not without shock and dismay, maybe not that bad, let me change that to surprise and regret. Regret that I had met Dawud in the first instance.

    Here is a man who speaks of noble aspirations that the followers of Islam should return to the one and true fold of Islam. He believes that he can contribute towards fulfilling it by browbeating his fellow Muslims. A mission that he conducts with brazen uncivility.

    Here is a man who holds a discussion with others while he is filled with imaginings of suspicion towards those in discussion with him. As a true Muslim that he undeniably is, Dawud makes known his suspicion and it is that kind of tactlessness that exemplifies his righteousness.

    But praise should be afforded to him because he believes in God. He believes in the path to spirituality redemption through the path of Islam. I respect that. I do not respect the way he epitomizes himself to be the unerring reference of what Islam is.

    Remember once again, I am a non-Muslim. As such I not able to discuss in the dogma and in the teachings of Islam. I do not pretend to. Rather, I can only discuss it from a layman’s position while keeping an open mind.

    Even though I am a non-Muslim, there are the natural ethics that I abide to. Hence, I greeted Dawud “Good Night” as I parted from the discussion.

    Here is a man who professes the true essence of what Islam embodies and yet is unable to return a farewell to a non-Muslim. It is beyond his ability to conduct himself in keeping with the fundamental rules of simple human civility towards a fellow human.

    iamisaid

  30. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:
    January 7th, 2008 at 5:21 pm

    Wow! Dawud Farquhar, doesn’t have many supporters here does he? But don’t worry, despite his claims of being a Muslim, he hasn’t even grasped the basics of Islam.

    Al Quran tells us it is complete perfect and fully detailed, yet Dawud Farquhar, still keeps supporting his arguments, with Sunnah and Hadith.

    He suggested that Al Quran superceeds the previous revelations, whilst in fact it tells us that it is a confirmation of them.

    He is derogatory of our Christian Brothers and Sisters, when Al Quran clearly tells us that they have nothing to fear from Allah.

    Brother Dawud, forget about your brainwashing and read Al Quran, that is where you will find the truth, don’t forget that Allah told us to accept what he has revealed in previous revelations also. If you want to know the Sunnah of The Prophet, you will find it in Al Quran.

    Don’t forget this verse:

    “Now that I have given them this book complete and fully detailed, in which Hadith will they believe?”

    Also:
    “Let there be no compulsion in religion”

    Peace

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