Sectarian Dispute

May 10th, 2007, in News, by

A neighbourly sectarian dispute over the building of a new church in North Jakarta.

On 29th April about 200 local Muslim demonstrators arrived at the inaugural service of the partly-built Gereja Immanuel Pantekosta (Pentacostal) in Sukapura, Cilincing, North Jakarta, and forced it to stop.

Some young people in the nearby Baitul Rahim mosque had organised the protest. ranesi Protestors initially blocked the road leading to the church, however would-be churchgoers still managed to arrive and the service began, attended by about 100 people. Protestors then gathered outside the church shouting:

Stop the service! Tear it [the church] down!

Worshippers were later able to leave the church without any violence occurring.

The head of the local neighbourhood unit (RW 08), Mr Kasirin, says that most people in the area are Muslim and so they don’t want a church there.

In RW 09 [the neighbouring area] there are already three churches, but we don’t mind that as most people there are Christian.

But in his fiefdom, RW 08, 90% of the residents of the 400 homes there are Muslim:

So we don’t want a church here.

He says there are only 20 people in RW 08 who belong to the half-built church.

If another service were held Kasirin said he couldn’t be held responsible if the numbers of demonstrators increased or for their actions.

A church spokesman, Priyono, said he would try to get formal permission from the mayor of North Jakarta to continue building the church. okezone

The following video shows a sectarian confrontation between Muslims and Christians, probably over the building of a church or something similar. It is NOT a recording of the events discussed here but may give an idea of what often happens in these situations.


28 Comments on “Sectarian Dispute”

  1. avatar Bas says:

    0 tolerance to minorities. The law of the strongest. Nice country!

  2. avatar Andrew says:

    A very alarming trend, and part of the problem is, the government did not do a thing to alleviate the situation.

    That’s not the Indonesia I knew. Those are not the nice, tolerant, friendly people I thought I knew.

    Being born and having grown up in Indonesia, there’s no other place or culture in the world where I could feel more comfortable in, but I am glad I made the decision to raise my daughter in a different country where everyone can remain oneself without fear of discrimination or oppression.

  3. avatar Niamh Piperman says:

    But in his fiefdom, RW 08, 90% of the residents of the 400 homes there are Muslim:

    Fiefdom!! Wow, this country really is going back to the middle ages 🙂

  4. avatar El Gran Combo Puertorico says:

    You know what,

    Most of the people in bali are Hindus; I bet they don’t want mosque there.
    Most of the people in US are Christian; I doubt they want to have mosque there.
    Heck, most of those europeans are either agnostic or atheist, they don’t want any house of worship.

    So?

    Geezz, what’s wrong with those moslem people?

    Just cut every relation (trade, political, culture, whatever) with saudi Arabia, and things will get better!

    What the hell is SBY doing here? Staring at the mirror, admiring how “handsome” he is? Practicing new song? New speech, trying to imitate sukarno?

    Sigh, that guy is hopeless.

  5. avatar Saipul says:

    I found it funny when I lived in the US, the local mosque was a building that used to be a church. Never once was there any protest.

  6. avatar Arema says:

    But in his fiefdom, RW 08, 90% of the residents of the 400 homes there are Muslim. He says there are only 20 people in RW 08 who belong to the half-built church.

    So these 20 people have no right? Good! Non-Muslims are animals anyway.

  7. avatar Dimp says:

    Actually is there any other churches in the vicinity of the area, I know they may be of different church (may be Presbyterian, Catholic, Anglican), but maybe they can use that church for a place of worship, maybe they can rent the church for a specific time.

    Here in Sydney, some of the Indonesian churches actually utilised other churches and they arranged a specific time to run their service / mass. So rather then the usual time the Indonesian churches may have odd time for their service / mass, but it is certainly cheaper than building a completely new church. Why do we need to spend more money to build something that is just cosmetic anyway? This goes for any religions. Again it shows how Indos prefer “kulit” than “isi”.

  8. avatar Sputjam says:

    Dimp says-
    Why do we need to spend more money to build something that is just cosmetic anyway? This goes for any religions. Again it shows how Indos prefer “kulit” than “isi”.

    God never did asked his followers to build houses of worship. There was never any instructions from the koran on this issue. Instead, God warns about priests/imams. For mankind has abandoned Gods words and taken priests/imams as their lord.

  9. avatar Dimp says:

    It is easier in Indo to build house of “maksiat” then house of worship.

  10. avatar Sputjam says:

    There is no difference between house of maksiat and house of worship. Anyone who enter these places will be lead astray from righteousness and the true path.

  11. avatar Dimp says:

    Well at least people who go to house of ‘maksiat’ know what they are looking for, unlike people who go to house of worship.

  12. avatar Kopral Jono says:

    I bet somebody paid those guys to do somthing like that, well perhaps ‘goban’ for each one? There would be no free beer in Jakarta.

  13. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Ah beraninya keroyokan. Kampung mentality, always in a pack. I agree, you don’t need to spend money to build house of worship. I’ve always been taught that God lives in me. So much for the ‘tolerance’ huh. NOT!

  14. avatar Rockstar says:

    I mean sometimes I’m tempted to finally give in and think Islam = violent.
    I don’t think you can blame me if I do.

  15. avatar Janma says:

    More correct would be islam today = violent.
    But I know so many Muslims who are not violent. The problem is that there seems to be a special situation wherein the poor and uneducated people are easily incited to run amok and become violent. They are easily influenced by ustads and those other robed fellows (forget what you call em) who call on their congregation to hate others who are different.
    This is not specifically Muslim per se, check Germany 50 years ago and that was pretty scary too, they killed six million Jews without blinking a bloody eye! But nowadays there is a focus on islam and the problems certain parts of their ideology are creating in a modern world. This in a large part is not helped by the policy of marginalization and fear propogated by America and their fleas. (don’t you love that translation of America serikat dan sekutunya?)

    One of my staff whom has worked for me for at least 15 years is a really nice guy, soft spoken, has a family, a Muslim but doesn’t pray five times a day, you’d think, lovely peace loving guy right? But wrong! When he was in Java and there was the big hullabaloo over Gus Dur being ousted, the mosques riled them all up and gave them some kind of mystic kebal tubuh and handed out the sabit’s and they went on the rampage. I asked him how he felt doing that, he killed people, or at least tried to! I couldn’t understand it, and when I asked him he couldn’t understand it either. Just caught up in mass hysteria. Same when that ninja thing was going down in east java, they just go mad.
    Weirdly he said that if he didn’t go out with his sabit he was worried about what all the others would say about him, now that’s gengsi!

  16. avatar Dimp says:

    Hi Janma,

    weirdly he said that if he didn’t go out with his sabit he was worried about what all the others would say about him”¦. now that’s gengsi!

    That is what I am worried about Indonesians, they have a very low self esteem, they always have to (as you say) “keep up with the Joneses”. When your neighbour buys a new car, you get a new car. Whey they get a new furniture, you get a new furniture. When he remarries, you find another girl. When they go on rampage, you have to go on rampage to.

    I blame the education system, Indonesians were taught to follow what the leader says, no matter whether it is right or wrong, the leader seems to be always right.

  17. avatar Bas says:

    Right, leaders are always right, teachers as always right in Indonesia.

    The first thing I was teached when I enrolled for a few years in the French army was

    “You are responsaible for what you are doing. If you think an order is not ethical and against the law so you must’nt follow it because you will be responsible for your acts”.

    In Indonesia you have no right to contradict your teachers. So in the army.

    Even more correct sentence would be Indonesian Islam today = violent.

  18. avatar Andrew says:

    Right, leaders are always right, teachers as always right in Indonesia

    In Indonesia you have no right to contradict your teachers.

    100% right.
    Off topic, but I’ll bring it up anyway: most teachers in Indonesia are so proud if only a few of the students can get good marks or pass their subject. Some are proud of being a “killer” teacher. Most don’t like taking questions from and/or engaging in arguments with their students. They forget (or have no clue?) that the success of their job is measured by the success of their pupils.

    It seems to be a widespread mentality in Indonesia – anyone who’s in the leading position expect to be respected unconditionally. A mentality that might have been caused by being the lowest rank in the pecking order for 350 years. A “mumpung” mentality.

  19. avatar Piddy says:

    In the US, local people are able to block the construction of mosques by placing pressure on their local officials. If there are enough narrow minded people in an area, then the mosque is not build.

    Muslims should strive to be better than the worst of the Christians. They should be kind to local Christians, and allow the church as long as it is not a front for foreign missionaries.

  20. avatar El Gran Combo Puertorico says:

    “You are responsaible for what you are doing. If you think an order is not ethical and against the law so you must’nt follow it because you will be responsible for your acts”.

    Maybe that explains why the french are notorious for their fondness of dropping their weapon…?

    He he he.

  21. avatar Ausdag says:

    Piddy Says:
    May 12th, 2007 at 2:39 pm

    They should be kind to local Christians, and allow the church as long as it is not a front for foreign missionaries.

    Piddy, what’s the difference between a local missionary and a foreign missionary?

    Anyway, all this anti-Christian stuff serves only to strengthen the collective faith of the ‘Church’. If you want to bring Christians down, befriend them.

  22. avatar Saipul says:

    In the US, local people are able to block the construction of mosques by placing pressure on their local officials.

    Never heard of such an event. Can you provide some links, please? Also, are you new to Indonesia? Here not only are closures of churches a daily event, but churches are regularly burned by the FPI, etc.

  23. avatar Rockstar says:

    I hate to watch that movie, and yet I keep watching it again and again, particurarly the part when that friggin guy shaked the Christian’s hand and almost punched him and his head.

    That scene really disgusts me. It’s so typical of them. Now come to think of it, I don’t recall I’ve ever seen these type of the so-called-moslems carried their actions alone. They always came in numbers. Why is that? Now I conclude they are just a bunch of chicken sh*t.

    Sore losers.

    The more I think about it, the more I hate them. We did not do anything wrong but they always want to hurt us. Back in May 98, what did we do wrong to deserve all that. If I asked that question to one of those guys, I bet they were too stupid to even come up with a lame excuse.

    I just don’t get it. I seriously don’t. Is it wrong to build a church? Is it wrong to be a Christian? Is it wrong to be a chinese? I just don’t understand them. Seriously I don’t. I honestly want to know, why on earth should they stop the service? What is it? What is the reason?

    Does it all come down to hatred? But again, what do we do to deserve all this? What do we do that makes them hate us that much.

    Somebody answer me this!

  24. avatar ausdag says:

    rockstar Says:
    May 13th, 2007 at 11:59 am

    Does it all come down to hatred? But again, what do we do to deserve all this? What do we do that makes them hate us that much.

    Somebody answer me this!

    Rockstar, answer for me these two questions as honestly as you can –

    1) What is the first thing that goes through your mind the instant you meet a pribumi?

    2) What is the first thing you think goes through most Chinese Indonesians’ minds the instant they meet a pribumi?

    Answer these and we’re on the way to answering your questions.

    Cheers,

    DG (NP)

  25. avatar Rockstar says:

    ausdag,
    I’m not exactly sure what your point is. But if you’re saying, yea you know what chinese/Christians hate local/moslems too, so this goes both ways. Man that’s a weak statement. I know that all along. But dude, that is not the right reason to hurt them don’t you think.

    Ausdag, discrimination is everywhere. I’m not saying it’s normal, but I can take that very fact. Here’s what counts, the way you handle your attitude toward others especially those who are different than you.

    If you’re saying, both hated each other. Sure, but then what? Is this logical enough for these people to hurt the minors?

    I will answer your questions honestly ausdag.
    When I see those people in the video above, I hate them so much that’s the truth. But here’s 2 things:

    1. I know the fact that there are 2 types of people from the same religion. The first type is those guys you saw on the movie. The other is some people in this forum who can tolerate others. People like my pakistani neighbour. And with that said, let me emphasize this again. I hate the first type of group.

    2. Even though I hate them, never across in my mind that I want to kill them. Never! Even though I’m probably not a good Christian, but I’m a firm believer those people will reap what they sow. As my co-worker always said, enjoy the hell sucka!

  26. avatar ausdag says:

    Rockstar Says:
    May 13th, 2007 at 11:07 pm

    But dude, that is not the right reason to hurt them don’t you think.

    Ausdag, discrimination is everywhere. I’m not saying it’s normal, but I can take that very fact. Here’s what counts, the way you handle your attitude toward others especially those who are different than you.

    I thought that what counts is not the way you handle your attitude, but it’s the attitude to begin with.

    If you’re saying, both hated each other. Sure, but then what? Is this logical enough for these people to hurt the minors?

    No, my point is more than that. And no it is not a reason to hurt anybody. But don’t forget that ‘hurt’ physically is simply a different kind of ‘hurting’

    But yes, I know there are plenty of pribumi who ask ‘Why do the Chinese continue to hurt us like this?’ Hurt? Yes. Not physically, like that shown in the video, but in different ways. You say in your first post,

    ‘ We did not do anything wrong but they always want to hurt us’.

    If you mean, ‘wrong’ as in physical harm, that is true. But how sure are you that the pribumi haven’t been ‘hurt’ in other ways? I’m not talking ‘who hates whom?’ – as you say, weak point. We’re now talking ‘who is hurting whom?’

    Some may say ‘yes, but they started it. We were going about our own business…’

    To that I say, it is no longer a ‘chicken or the egg’ matter. The world is the way it is, because everybody thinks they are the innocent party. And when you get hurt, you have to reply, but the response is not neccessarily in kind.

    You are right, discrimination is everywhere. I know. I’ve had close dealings with both Pribumi and Chinese Indonesians over more than ten years. I see it all the time when my Pribumi wife is continually discriminated against by other pribumi (mostly in the form of inane comments and outright slander), and by Chinese (mostly in the form of rejection, derision, mockery, etc) – why? Because of false and inaccurate PRECONCEPTIONS. Hence my question.

    It seems that too many people rely more on preconceptions than they do the truth. To answer your question ‘Why do they hate us? – for one, because they have preconceptions – that all Christians are a threat, that Christians are the enemy (kaffir), that Christian = West and West = Colonialism…..

    I will answer your questions honestly ausdag.
    When I see those people in the video above, I hate them so much that’s the truth. But here’s 2 things:

    1. I know the fact that there are 2 types of people from the same religion. The first type is those guys you saw on the movie. The other is some people in this forum who can tolerate others. People like my pakistani neighbour. And with that said, let me emphasize this again. I hate the first type of group.

    2. Even though I hate them, never across in my mind that I want to kill them. Never! Even though I’m probably not a good Christian, but I’m a firm believer those people will reap what they sow. As my co-worker always said, enjoy the hell sucka!

    Your response here is entirely understandable and in no way the marker of a ‘bad’ Christian. And yes, ‘Reap what you sow’; ‘Hukum Karma’; I agree with you. I want to see discrimination wiped out of Indonesia and my own country and everywhere just as much as any right-minded person. But where do we begin? I suggest we all start with our own preconceptions.

  27. avatar Ramster says:

    I can’t believe how people would interpret the word DEMOCRACY these days. It seems to me that the journey of men has fallen into second dark ages.

    The Muslims think they’re right, the Christians think they’re right, I tell you none of them is RIGHT! God forbids humans to kill one another. I read the news how the Muslims killed the Christians and VICE VERSA, and it’s sickening.

    What is the basic teaching of all religions? Isn’t it to LOVE one another? If there is one that does not, well I think it is time for us to question its legitimacy.

    PEOPLE! do wonder. If God ever asked humans to kill wouldn’t God likely be the same as evil? Since God is NOT evil, then He will NOT ask humans to kill.

    Nobody and I mean nobody is allowed to harm [ by any means ] other humans.
    “Vengeance is Mine, says the Lord”.

  28. avatar M.Mad says:

    Treat your citizens like children all their lives and it should be no surprise that they act like them.

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