Gaddafi, MidEast Turmoil & Indonesia

Feb 28th, 2011, in Featured, News, by

Due to lack of time and motivation there are going to be more of these informal posts, which, I will endeavour to exclude from the RSS feed/mailouts/Facebook page [so far failing at that], so you'll have to actually check the site to see if anything new. It's better than nothing and the best way to go forward I think as we have a small community here that likes to talk about all sorts of things.


A few things on the middle east turmoil which have landed in front of me and might be of interest. I don't keep track of world news or any news much at the moment so plenty I've probably missed but here goes:

This video is very popular in the Arab world apparently, even though it's an Israeli made thing:

My favourite comment (from an American) on the airstrike on protesters in Libya:

.......But still: Qaddafi and his sons ruled in the old way, with nothing but their strong right arms. God bless the simplicity of these noble desert peoples! God keep them safe in their own countries, and out of ours! I'm struggling to think of a previous event in which someone has called in an airstrike on the mob. Grapeshot for a demonstration - yes. Machine guns? Naval artillery? It's all been done. But an airstrike? Now that's got to be some shock and awe. You're just peacefully out demonstrating with your picket signs, ski masks and sharpened agricultural tools, when a MiG blasts in out of nowhere and gives you some GPS-guided love. Wow! Qaddafi, like the honey badger, just doesn't give a sh*t.

By the way, my favourite (apparent - I just saw it on a blog once, no link) quote from Quaddifi, from years ago I think, sort of referencing his Africa first policy:

May God keep the Arabs well, and far away.

And to try to tie this in to the theme of this site - Indonesia - here is "Indonesia: An Example for Egypt, or a Democracy in Retreat?" by Robin Bush of The Asia Foundation, which seems to boil down to:

Indonesia has come a long way in a relatively short time and deserves much of the praise that is rather belatedly starting to come its way. It does provide an important example for Egypt, as a Muslim country that overthrew a dictator and integrated Islamic parties effectively into its democratic system. And, it has much to offer the region in the way of leadership on democratic transitions and reform. However, if it is to truly become a credible leader on regional and international platforms, it will have to confront head-on its own glaring problems in the areas of human rights and corruption. Many of the gains that Indonesia made in its reform process were made 10 years ago and have not advanced since. Now, a second wave of reform is needed to ensure that the country is able to live up to its tremendous potential – for the good of its own citizens and for the global community.

In the words of Madrotter... EnJoY!!!!!

129 Comments on “Gaddafi, MidEast Turmoil & Indonesia”

  1. avatar ET says:


    The question should be not how much civilization owes Christianity (or religion in general) but how far advanced would we be now without it.

    Probably not very far. Before science religion was the first to pose questions and try to answer the Unexplained. Without those primordial questions and answers we would still live in trees and use our brains only for finding food and mates.
    One should see religion as a process by which our minds are still focused on the Big Unknown (=God) but which will make itself obsolete in due course as the Unknown is gradually revealed by scientific evolution.

    J.P. Sartre, not particularly a religious freak, has said “That God does not exist, I cannot deny, That my whole being cries out for God I cannot forget.”

    Religion only becomes an obstruction when it gets institutionalized and self-perpetuated to serve its own existence and the needs of those who depend on it for a living.

  2. avatar Oigal says:

    Religion never poses questions just pretends to have the answers. It hides in the dark and ever shrinking places of human knowledge. Although it will fight to preserve those dank, dark places with all the blood of others it can muster.

  3. avatar realest says:

    religions are ideologies used as tools by those in power and inscribed in books by victors in history. they have nothing to do with hindrance to knowledge whatsoever, jesuit priests and practicing jews are great examples of that with their numerous theories and scores of nobel prizes regardless of the amount of money anyone throws into the r&d department.

    about that 5 million starting salary (would it make a difference if i say 6.5?), that amount could easily quadruple or quintupled in 2-3 years time coupled with various benefits and up to 8 months bonus with, of course, good performance esp in the banking industry (after all you’re not really a ‘serious’ talent if you can’t deliver). considering the relatively low taxes and dirt cheap living expenses, it adds up to 50-60k usd annually …. a pretty good number for a few years of work anywhere. plus if you really really really perform, you could get offers ranging from london to hong kong, which will pay you an ‘expatriate’ salary triple that amount + housing and other allowance. doesnt beat running your own business though …..

  4. avatar Oigal says:

    Nothing to do with hinderance of knowledge..Galileo would probably disagree and no 6.5 wouldn’t make difference.

  5. avatar realest says:

    Georges Lemaître would probably agree and this guy came up with the Big Bang Theory, a theory most half-wits atheists support. And before we waste our time, there are always two sides to every story which anyone could easily google. please refrain from making anecdotal examples unless it’s really significant and convincing.

  6. avatar Oigal says:

    Thanks for coming REalest always a highlight 🙂

  7. avatar berlian biru says:

    So as I suspected no actual example of Muslim knowledge and erudition being confronted by Christian ignorance then.

  8. avatar Oigal says:

    BB, I dunno thought Ody did a fairly good job, what more did you want? As for Christian oppression of knowledge, we had Galileo, how about the murder of Hypathia or perhaps the burning of the library of Alexandria? I forget was who was it who refered to Plato and Aristole as wretched beings? Perhaps we could discuss the great leaps in science we have to thank the inquisition for?
    Most historians will agree that it was only because of records kept in the east that the records of these ‘pagan’ texts are available to us today.

    I wouldn’t worry though, the fundamentalists on both sides are winning the battle to drag us all back into a world of pain, hatred and ignorance as the triple pillars of human existence.

  9. avatar Oigal says:

    One for ET seeing how we are playing the quote game :-).

    When you understand why you reject all other gods then you will understand why I reject yours.

  10. avatar Odinius says:

    Oigal said:

    It’s one of the great myths that Western owes it’s existence to the rise of Christianity, Civilisation has advanced in spite of Christianity not because of it.

    Some truth in this, though I’d say a better way to put it is that the West owes its existence in part to Christianity, but to a far greater degree, to the revival of pre-Christian classical traditions by Christians at the precise time that Christianity ceased being, for Western intellectuals, an all-encompassing thought-bubble and started being one perspective on the world among many.

    Back over to classical Islam, the thing that’s so interesting about the period is how it was, pretty much, the inverse of what fundamentalists today imagine it to have been. It wasn’t Talibanistan, but a place of deep and diverse intellectual pursuit. Yes, religion was the most valued portion, and no it wasn’t egalitarian by today’s standards, but the poetry, musical theory, mathematics, philosophy, astronomy and medicine were simply astounding for the time, as was the treatment of minorities–particular in comparison with the contemporary Christian West, stuck as it was in its most Talibanic, least intellectual period. Again, it’s worth noting that this is by the standards of the time, not by today’s. Obviously these roles began reversing during the Renaissance, but it’s worth noting that Renaissance Europe wouldn’t fare too well on a 2011 moral scale either. It was, after all, the time of the Inquisition, Conquistators and the rape of the Americas, the mass expulsions and ghettoization of European Jews across the continent, near unending war, etc. But it was, also, a period in intellectual life that shaped the history of the West–and the world–forever.

  11. avatar Oigal says:

    As a disclosure (although I think most would gather it anyway) I am somewhat anti-religion as a concept. Call it my own particular tilt at windmills seeing how the secular world is somewhat in retreat today as the dark side reasserts itself.

    Someone called me bigot the other day, bit harsh and essentially incorrect as unless Patrick, Ross and their curious minions are off white or of a particular race, I pretty much try and share the joy.

    So fair to say not a bigot but antireligionist?? god-botherer phobic…mmm not sure what the term would be. However, it does tend to colour my position but I promise I won’t gather in a crowd of thousands to beat you or burn your house down because you do believe.

  12. avatar Odinius says:

    Hmm, well even “anti-religionist” and “god-botherer-phobic” would seem, to me, to be quite different. I’ve always felt the latter were people who aggressively push their views on others, whereas someone can be deeply religious and not in the slightest bit concerned with making everyone take the same path as they do. An “anti-religionist,” as I understand it, would still disapprove in that case.

  13. avatar Hans says:

    Amin al-Husseini collaborated with Germany during World War II. During this period he worked actively for the Germans and their so-called Jewish politics and for that it would be much harder. Who was al-Husseini? Cooperation between Islam and Nazism?
    Many want to cover up information that there was any connection between Nazism and Islam, especially Muslims.
    Al-Husseini was during his lifetime one of the most influential people in Islam. He was also one of the largest. Not only was he president of the Muslim Supreme Council, he was also the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem! including during World War II.

  14. avatar Lairedion says:

    So can we expect some fireworks now in Libya?

  15. avatar Hans says:

    If France and the rest of Europe with Russia could restore Libya without the involvement of the United States would it probably already happened things for the better for the Libyan people. as long as this self-proclaimed world police, the U.S. will decide then it is always very slow. so they can blame china.

  16. avatar Lairedion says:

    OK, the show has started.

    French military jets over Libya

  17. avatar diego says:


    Please hold, out for popcorn. Be back in a minute.

  18. avatar Patrick says:

    Ya! French jets against (aghast) French jets!!! You have to love the French as they had no problems arming the Libyans for years and now they want to shoot their Mirage jets out of the sky. Mmmmm? Wonder who will get the next military contracts from the next Libyan government?

  19. avatar Arie Brand says:

    Ray Suarez questioning the US Ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, on PBS Newshour:

    RAY SUAREZ: As you say, the president declared that all attacks on civilians must stop. But do you read the word “civilians” to include those who have taken up arms against the government? Are they civilians or combatants?

    SUSAN RICE: Well, they’re — we’re about the business of protecting civilians. And there are civilians at extraordinary risk, 700,000 of them in the city of Benghazi.

    And civilians have been the victims towns in Misrata and Zawiyah and Ajdabiya, where Gadhafi forces continue to attack. So, that is the focus, that is the purpose of the Council resolution passed yesterday. And that’s, as the president said today, what we will be implementing.

    So, “Well, they’re ..” what, Madam Rice? You neatly evaded the question.

    We have heard an awful lot about the protection of civilians but the conflict looks rather like a civil war to me where the distinction between civilians and combatants doesn’t seem all that simple.

    Nobody knows how strong Gaddafi’s support among the civilian population really is. Last night there was a reporter on ABC News 24, reporting from Tripoli, who claimed that there was no doubt that he has wide support because he is viewed as the only person who can hold this tribally divided country together and keep radical Islam at bay. How does she know?

    As a former UK Ambassador to Libya, who was also asked about this support this morning, rightly said: in a country where people don’t even tell each other where their true allegiance lies they will hardly tell outsiders.

    Of course one can hold that there is something basically wrong with a country where people are forced to be so secretive about their political opinions and that, from that point of view, regime change (the unstated goal of the ‘coalition’) might be a step in the right direction.

    But for the time being the ‘coalition’ will not talk about regime change. The mantra will remain ‘protection of the civilian population’. Well, hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue. A few more of those tributes and the protection of civilian populations might become a more entrenched UN aim.

  20. avatar Arie Brand says:

    Hans said:

    Many want to cover up information that there was any connection between Nazism and Islam, especially Muslims.

    Well, the Israel firsters have been trumpeting it far and wide. The factual basis for their extravagant claims is very thin. I commented at length on this on this blog almost a year ago. See:

    Post of 13th April 2010 1.47 PM

  21. avatar rustyprince says:

    Arie, maybe there is little dissemenation from the Nazi’s on Islam because it wasn’t on their immediate horizon but it is problemsome, for me at least, to believe that a triumphant Hitler in Europe wouldn’t have been anything but a profound threat to the Arabs.
    Would Islam have been tolerated in Jerusalem? An alliance to keep the Orthodox quiescent would have seen the return of Constantinople!!! Spanish allies in league with the reactionary church pursuing an unimpeded sword and bible strategy in the Magrebh.
    So I’d attest its unbelievably shortsighted for any Muslem to think that Nazi-ism offered any commonality.

    By the way is that report that Libya bankrolled Sarkoey getting any currency in France? Or does French chauvinism meet the Fourth Estate circle the wagons with the rest of their establishment to maintain the myth of French relevance.

  22. avatar rustyprince says:

    Interesting reading on that link Arie.
    Edit for previous – Mean and not ‘meet’

  23. avatar nobody says:

    It would be disingenuous of you, of course, to ignore the fact that during the same period Mr. Amin was accused of cozying up to Germany, his country (Palestine) is in the process of being snatched up by the Zionist, the Russian and their Serbian ally was eyeing Muslim Bosnia, and British and France was holding most of Arab land in Middle East. So yes, his choices of friends and enemies were not that flexible. Same with Sukarno: facing a choice between Netherland colonizer and Japan, why on earth would the Dutch or anyone else expect an Indonesian to fight against Japan for Queen Wilhemina??? at most the Indonesian will remain neutral, and if he was smart, like Sukarno was, he will take the once in a lifetime opportunity to give the 300years delayed kick in the a** the Dutch colonized right deserved.

  24. avatar Arie Brand says:

    why on earth would the Dutch or anyone else expect an Indonesian to fight against Japan for Queen Wilhemina???

    Not for Queen Wilhelmina, for chrissake, but he could have considered taking the part of his Indonesian compatriots who were murdered by the thousands as romushas. Why did Sjahrir, who made a different choice, call Sukarno’s attitude to the Japanese that of a ‘banci’? I will leave the answer to you.

  25. avatar Oigal says:

    And to bring things forward a few years who can forget the rallying of the Arabs and others in support of Muslim Bosnia. I am really surprised you brought Bosnia up remains the great example in modern times of Arab duplicity. Although we have well established the animal farm theory of brotherhood.

    As for Palistine, without in getting into thousands of years of tribal history, even I was surprised that you have managed allocate lands disputed since times predating Islam to evil sheik. Now that’s disingenuous!

    As for the Japanese, do some research on the Sumatera death railway, far more gruesome and cruel than it’s more infamous Burma counterpart but people like yourself have had remarkable success in burying the truth. However, the thousands of Indonesians who died may find your flippancy and ability to twist history to support your arab lapdogging somewhat repugant.

  26. avatar nobody says:

    Care to explain what do you mean about Bosnia?
    I am of the opinion that NATO bombed Serbia mostly because they’re afraid that if they do not do it then Muslim will came from all over the world to join the fight.

    Bosnian Govt. was under embargo even while their people was being massacred by the Serbs, until OIC starts ignoring that embargo and ships weapons, the the west starts worrying about being fait accomplied.

    Which evil sheikh? what dispute?
    And there was no dispute before Britain issue that Balfour Declaration and Zionist pick Palestine instead of Uganda for the location of their project.
    Jews and Christian was happily living among Muslims there for 700 years, under Muslim Administration.

    Notice that they even considered Uganda once.. so the place/land was arbitrary.. it could have been anywhere.. not so much related to any perceived historical ties.

  27. avatar nobody says:

    can you imagine that,
    if they choose Uganda or somewhere in Texas, the world would’ve been a much better place… now we’ve countless wars between Arab vs Israel, countless murders and counter murders all over the world for who knows how many years and who knows how many years to go.. all can be traced back to that one fateful stupid unwise decision.

  28. avatar Oigal says:

    Lol sorry Nobody that little piece of revisionist history is even to much for me to bother with

  29. avatar Oigal says:

    I find this all very curious. What is the justification for a no fly zone and bombings? Ok, I grant the guy is a thug, dictator probably insane but how come Libya gets creamed and Yemen, Iran, North Korea, Zimbabwe and Saudi Arabia get off the hook?

    Where does it start n stop? How about countries that deliberately let thugs harass minority religious or ethnic groups should that get a visit from a Stealth Bomber as well?

  30. avatar Hans says:

    Consensus today: Sweden will fight in Libya, we are sending warplanes next.

    Hans-Peter Friedrich
    Innenminister – “Islam gehört nicht zu Deutschland”

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