Christianisation

Apr 18th, 2007, in Society, by

Christianisation through sodomy, hypnosis, and kidnapping is rampant in Indonesia.

It is often heard that Indonesia is subject to a process of Christianisation, one example being an old article by one Herry Nurdi in Sabili magazine – “Alert! Christianization is Attacking Campuses” (ALERT! KRISTENISASI MENYERBU KAMPUS), the word “attack” having the sense of “in great numbers” or “stampede”, the article having been recently republished on some Indonesian blogs. swaramuslim

Sabili
Sabili magazine cover, warning of Christian missionary guerrilla warfare in Muslim neighbourhoods.

Herry says various university campuses are currently under attack from Christian evangelists. An example given is the case of Adam at the Institut Pertanian Bogor, Bogor Agricultural Institute, a member of the conservative Muslim group NII, Indonesian Islamic State movement. Adam struggles to pay the fees required by NII and after some time he is approached by a cunning Christian student who helps Adam and eventually persuades him to move to the boarding house where he lives.

Thereafter Adam is brainwashed by the devious Christianiser, his mind filled with Christian doctrines, while Adam’s Islam is lost. Worse is to come. Adam is later sodomised by someone who claims to be “the saviour of the [lost] sheep”.

Murtad
Hartono Ahmad Jaiz has the news.

After all this, even including the Christian sodomising, Adam becomes a confirmed believer and a militant evangelist for Christianity and begins Christianising work at various universities in East Java.

But happily in the end Adam returns to his home in West Sumatra and becomes a Muslim again.

University of Islamic Studies (IAIN)
Muslim girls at the Islamic University of Indonesia (IAIN) are not safe.

A female student also in Bogor, West Java, Rahmi, is befriended by a Christian girl who is very sympathetic and listens to all of Rahmi’s problems. Gradually the Christian friend moves the conversation onto religious topics and Rahmi later explains:

It was like I was hypnotised by that Christian student.

It all ended with Rahmi’s baptism by her hypnosis expert friend. At the baptism, which was possibly carried out in a dark room, the hypnotist friend was watched over by a more senior person who made sure there were no problems.

Rahmi later says that there were five other students she knew of who had been converted to Christianity by her friend. In any case Rahmi, like Adam, was finally saved by God and returned to Islam. She has made a list of the Muslim students at her university who have been targeted by evangelists but she can’t say how many people are on the list:

But it’s a lot.

Rahmi complains that the one who baptised her still roams about campus freely, looking for more victims.

Muslim girl praying
Mualaf.com asks about this Acehnese girl: “She survived the tsunami, but will she survive the scavenging missionaries bent on abducting Muslim children “for Christ””.

There are several other case histories of Christianisation given. Wati is converted by a Roman Catholic who impregnates and then marries her. Another Muslimah is kidnapped and made a Christian.

A well-organised gang of Christians at the Universitas Pendidikan Indonesia (UPI/IKIP) in Bandung pretend to be Muslims and succeed in converting several Muslim girls who had previously worn headscarfs and covered their aurat well.

Such stories of conversion to Christianity are said to be only the tip of an iceberg, and Herry warns that Muslims must always be on guard against the enemies of God.


61 Comments on “Christianisation”

  1. avatar Miss Indo 07 says:

    Hi everyone, long time no chat. ^^

    Well, I just wonder if a Catholic/Christian magazine makes an article titled “beware Christians, Muslims attack!”

    What will the FPI fellows do? Ha ha, this is Indonesia mates, welcome to Indonesia.

  2. avatar Janma says:

    Suhada!!! thank you for your concise explanation! You said;

    “The passion to encourage others believers to convert into a certain beliefs is seemingly noble and somewhat reflect an act of faith. But in fact, we can’t be more erroneous. It is actually driven by primordial triumphalism. It is driven by the bestial lust of domination.”
    That’s what I feel too…. it’s mans capacity for dominion driving him in most cases.

    Another childlike thought (but realistic if one is discussing religion, which is after all is very childlike), is this; If God is so compassionate and full of love then how come he took so long revealing the truth? What about all he millions of people born into this world in the 40,000 years before Monotheisim? Are they all in Hell? That’s pretty compassionate.

    a quote from Julian of Norwich in the year 1373 after a revelation from the Lord when he asked about sin and the damnation of mankind wherein the Lord said “not to worry, that everything will be well.”

    “Our faith is founded on God’s word, and it belongs to our faith that we believe that God’s word will be preserved in all things. And one article of our faith is that many creatures will be damned, such as the angels who fell out of heaven because of pride, who now are devils, and many men upon earth who die out of the faith of Holy Church, that is to say those who are pagans and many who have received baptism and who live unChristian lives and so die out of God’s love. All these will be eternally condemned to hell, as Holy Church teaches me to believe. And all this being so, it seemed to me that it was impossible that every kind of thing should be well, as our Lord revealed at this time. And to this I had no other answer as a revelation for our Lord except this: What is impossible to you is not impossible to me. I shall preserve my word in everything, and I shall make everything well.”

    Janma.
    *who thinks that hell is the scare tactic of religions not of God”

  3. avatar Abdul Khalid al Jumhuri says:

    Sure if some crazy Christians or Hindus or Budhist, or Moslem want to sodomize me I will kill his aZZ first, and then report him to the Police. But that is not the point!

    I wonder how much Saudi’s money is poured into this Sabili crap. I know they are loaded with money and supported many smokescreen “Yayasan” and “Perguruan” to market their hardline brand of Islam (all of which my forefathers rejected generations ago).

    I cannot agree more with the potential damage of this kind of trash. OK it is stupid and full of kaka, but if many unfortunate ignorant folks (who are not fortunate enough to have a broader picture like us) believe it, then it become the truth and it become reality. If someone is strong enough to yell non-stop that the sun rise from the west, and the they hear it nonstop, then it become reality.

    This type of publication is a massive volksverdummung and catering to a specific group of people: the ignorants. Well, guess who are the majority in any society?

    Guys, this is more to it than that, and the Government should not let this hatred machine in the name of jihad, Islam, Budhism, Christianity, or whatever continues to pollute our otherwise friendly, accommodating, and understanding Indonesian culture.

  4. avatar Rockstar says:

    Stupid article written by some stupid morons and consumed by even more stupid people.

    This all proves that yes a lot of people are idiot enough to believe in this story.

    And when can they break off from this chain of stupidity, it is still unknown. Rumors said that it would not be happening until the next millenium.

  5. avatar Dymal says:

    This chain will never end Rockstar, the level is always maintained to let somebody like the writer of the article we are talking about to feed himself.

    It will be a miracle if it ever happend in Indonesia: declaration of secular state, removing all god “things” from state affairs and maybe it will help Indonesian to have a broader view.

  6. avatar Julita says:

    Suhada says:

    Assalamualaikum. As a Muslim I’m deeply concerned about this matter, of course. But in a rather different way I presume.I’m not in the position to either verify or falsify the accuracy of the article. But I’m aware that certain acts to persuade Muslims to embrace Christianity is real. Whether it trough such a disgusting manner as sodomy or rather metaphysical such as hypnosis, I can’t tell.

    Honestly, I very much doubt it, because I know for sure that sodomy and conversion by way of hypnosis are sinful in Christianity. So why would a Christian try to convert somebody in this way? This doesn’t sound logical.

    Suhada very own words: 1. But the very maneuver is real and not surprisingly familiar in many circumstances. 2.Thus we must, indeed, be alerted of this Christianisation devious maneuvers. 3. But unfortunately, in many cases, they fall into such low practices in order to spread the faith.

    Hard words heh! Are you talking about Mother Teresa, and the many people leaving their comfortable life, their professional careers, their friends and family to distribute food, build hospitals and supply water pumps in Africa? Many people died doing just that, following the teaching of Jesus Christ, Truth and Love, tending the sick, feed the hungry, clothed the naked etc. Using force? I tell you, they won’t even twist a finger to convert anybody.
    Jesus Christ attached back the ear of one of the soldiers who came to arrest Him, He prayed to the Father to forgive those who persecuted Him. He taught His followers by example. So I hope very much that you can proof all the evil intentions and actions that you said.

    Suhada says:

    We might be disgusted at the sight of Mr. Bush that arrogantly invade Afganisthan and Iraq under such as chauvinistic Christian jargons and paradigm.

    We are having a discussion about Christianization, what does Mr. Bush’s invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq have to do with it? He is trying to Christianize those countries, this is new, to me. Yes, the UN and the Americans were attempting to introduce democracy, but democracy is not Christianization. And, by the way, democracy already existed before Christ.

    Suhada says:

    The passion to encourage others believers to convert into a certain beliefs is seemingly noble and somewhat reflect an act of faith. But in fact, we can’t be more erroneous. It is actually driven by primordial triumphalism. It is driven by the bestial lust of domination.

    I am glad, I never heard about this in Christianity. Humility and peace are prime virtues in Christianity not power and domination. They do it more for their own salvation and the salvation of others, including yourself. Their Lord told them ‘Love your neighbors as you love yourself” “What you do unto others, you do unto Me”. Thus, none of those bestial lust of domination etc, my friend! Is there any other teaching more beautiful than this!

    Suhada says:

    Unfortunately we have to admit that we can find phrases and passages in every holy texts that can be viewed erroneously as justification for such triumphalism- particularly under the light of fanaticism, fundamentalism and textualism. Such percepts oftentimes rise from the failure to grasp the real message of the passages given. Hence we can see the significance of hermeneutic to comprehend the message of a certain passage within the real context.

    That is why in Christianity we are very fortunate; we have a holy, intelligent, leader and his followers who are teaching us. They are dedicated people, offer their life for this purpose, for their God and serve God’s people, studied for years and years which resulted in that what they are teaching are in accord. The Catholic church which Jesus Himself built Matthew 16: 18,19 And so I tell you, Peter: You are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build My church, and not even death will ever be able to overcome it. I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven; what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven..

    Suhada says:

    Thus we oftentimes refer the others as infidels, destined to doom; “Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur)”. Under the light of such exclusivism we somehow are tempted to converse those infidels in order to save them. What a noble and caring act.. But unfortunately nothing can be more erroneous.

    “We?” sorry, not us. We do not think others as infidels, destined to doom. We love them as God loves them. They are God’s children, our brothers and sisters. God will look after them. The Lord is Almighty; nobody should think they could do better than the Lord. See John 10. 11-16 I am the good shepherd: and I know Mine and Mine know Me. And other sheep I have that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one fold.

    Suhada says:

    And Allah heareth and knoweth all things” and “Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve” give us a vivid view of how Allah perceive diversity in faiths. We refer Allah as “Most Gracious, Most Merciful” but we fail to view our faith within somewhat gracious and merciful manner.

    Sorry, you forgot to add “The Holy Bible” the best and most read book in the world

    Suhada says:

    Within Christianity, such passage as “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth” is viewed as a legitimate justification to spread Christianity. There’s nothing inherently wrong within this perception. But unfortunately, in many cases, they fall into such low practices in order to spread the faith.

    Yes, the Apostles were and we are encouraged to evangelize by doing God’s will, by being charitable and by showing this in our daily life, though”¦ Luke10.11 But if you go into a town and are not welcome , go out into the street and say, “Even the dust from your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you”. “They fall into such low practices in order to spread the faith” Sahada you are contradicting your own statement, you make up things and yet say(advie?) that we have to along with our brothers and sisters. Come on!

    Suhada says:

    The perception of Christianity as the only way of salvation often urge them to “save” the unbelievers. Convert them into Christian, thus they will be noticed as “the heir of kingdom of heaven .” Those triumphalist just fail to see such passage as: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” as an indication that Gods compassionate can not be bounded within either narrow creeds or exclusive dogmas.

    “Christian being triumphalist? Jesus taught us to be humble, forgiving and charitable. How did you get that, we do not worry about this, it will be taken care of. Jesus said: John 10:14-16″¦”¦.I know my sheep and they know me. And I am willing to die for them. There are other sheep which belong to me that are not in this sheep pen. I must bring them, too; they will listen to my voice, and they will become ‘one flock with one shepherd.
    It also explains that one does not just pray, pray, pray but besides that has to be charitable, do good deads and we must do God’s commandments.

    Suhada says:

    We have to see religious beliefs as an act of love intended to Allah of “Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek” rather than mere dogmas or creed. Hence we can respect others and, furthermore, accept them as brothers and sisters within this diversity of faiths.

    I very much agree with the above, you advise others but you are not doing it yourself. That is why I have to come up, Truth is important. The latest postings make me want to remind Indonesia about the Pancasila and the motto: “Bersatu Teguh Bercerai Runtuh!” Attacked on Shia Moslem, why do this? Very sad, indeed.

  7. avatar Ryan says:

    This article is true.

    Because Christians are encouraged by their beloved apostle, Paul the Tarsus, to deceive, to lie and to be what they want to be as long as they can collect a new lamb(s ). These deceit methods have been using by the church throughout the history, generation to generation, up till now.

    In the book of Rome and Corinthian Paul had defined and demonstrated that it’s ok to lie, to be a hypocrite, to deceive in order to glorifies God’s name and gains new lambs as much as you can.

  8. avatar Arema says:

    Hi Ryan,

    You said:

    This article is true.

    Because Christians are encouraged by their beloved apostle, Paul the Tarsus, to deceive, to lie and to be what they want to be as long as they can collect a new lamb(s ). These deceit methods have been using by the church throughout the history, generation to generation, up till now.

    In the book of Rome and Corinthian Paul had defined and demonstrated that it’s ok to lie, to be a hypocrite, to deceive in order to glorifies God’s name and gains new lambs as much as you can.

    It can’t get more erroneous than this. Can you show me the verses? Which bible you’re reading?

  9. avatar Aluang anak Bayang says:

    Here it is, it took me a few seconds, next time do it yourself.

    And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and God schemed also, and the best of schemers is God. S. 3:54

  10. avatar Arema says:

    Here it is, it took me a few seconds, next time do it yourself.

    And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and God schemed also, and the best of schemers is God. S. 3:54

    LOL, thanks. That’s from Quran right? 😛

  11. avatar Julita says:

    Thanks Arema, for being so alert and Aluang very funny.
    I honestly thank Suhada for the opportunity she gave me to comment on some of the issues. It is for the benefit for my fellow believers, may be others who read it and especially myself who still have to learn so much. Thanks again Suhada.
    May peace be in your mind, in your heart, in your family and your country. God bless you.

  12. avatar Ryan says:

    It can’t get more erroneous than this. Can you show me the verses? Which bible you’re reading?

    Interesting sentence, especially the part in bold, well which one I read? Apparently you are aware of the uncountable versions of Bible, good for you. But I won’t go as far as to arguing this issue.

    Ok since you have not known on which part of the paul’s epistles who teach the things I wrote above, then here they are:

    I chorintian 9:

    20. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
    21. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
    22. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.
    23. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

    What a better illustration of hypocrisy could be given. For the sake of the ‘truth’, Paul will use all means of deceit, insincerity, ruse etc in order to gain more lambs. 1 Corinthians 9 by no means shows humble manner instead it shows hypocrisy manner eh?

    There’s still more to go, and in the book of Romans Paul did have a witness as to his integrity, and it was not a favorable witness. This was Paul himself

    Romans 3:

    5. But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)
    6. Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?
    7. Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?”

    So my assumption to believe in the above article is not without basic, because Christians are fully supported to be anything they could be and do anything they can…in order to rob as many lambs as they can.

    Regards.

  13. avatar Abul says:

    — whatever mumbo jumbo that my man ryan spoke —

    Dude, people take years of their time trying to understand the bible, there’s a school for that, there’re lots of bible commentaries to read for that, taking verses just as they are is just plain stupid. One should know the context, the background, many things are just not the same as they seem to be. I wouldn’t do that if I were you.

    Let you study yours, let me study mine. We’ve had too much things on our hands already trying to understand our own religion. Why bother judge other people’s belief when you’re not even familiar with your own?

    Let’s just live and let live. If some non-Christians want to convert themselves into Christians, I say let them be, provided it is not caused by coercion or anything illegal (say the sodomy *found myself chuckled writing this one* crap reported by the sabili super-crap magazine sh*t). Same thing the other way around, let Christians convert to anything else if that’s what they want, provided it is not caused by coercion.

    The keyword here is ‘coercion’, converting people by way of coercion is just damn illegal, let the converters be shot to dead publicly at lapangan banteng, I’ll gladly shoot them myself.

    But if it’s otherwise? Well what can you do? Changing beliefs is part of human rights, majority of Indonesians should know this and learn to f*ck their own business instead of meddling in other people’s private affairs.

  14. avatar Julita says:

    Ryan: What a better illustration of hypocrisy could be given. For the sake of the ‘truth’, Paul will use all means of deceit, insincerity, ruse etc in order to gain more lambs. 1 Corinthians 9 by no means shows humble manner instead it shows hypocrisy manner eh?

    Yes when we read the Bible or anything don’t just pick something and jump to our conclusion. Unlike your judgement: “hypocrisy” “use all means of deceit, insincerity, ruse etc in order to gain more lambs”. Paul was more concern about/looking after people who were in his church, already within the Faith.
    Pau’s First Letter to the Corinthians:

    Introduction: The letter was written to deal with problems of Christian life and faith that had arisen in the church which Paul had established at Corinth.
    The apostle’s chief concerns are with problems such as divisions and immorality in the church, and with questions about sex, marriage, matters of conscience, church order, gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the resurrection. With deep insight he shows how the Good News speaks to these questions.

    To your comment “humble manner instead it shows hypocrisy manner eh”
    Chapter 13. which presents LOVE as the best of God’s gifts to his people, is probably the most widely known passage in the book.

    1 Corinthians 13 I may be able to speak the languages of men and even of angels, but if I have no love, my speech is no more than a noisy gong or clanging bell. I may have the gift of inspired preaching: I may have all knowledge and understand all secrets; I may have all the faith needed to move mountains – but if I have no love, I am nothing.

  15. avatar Arema says:

    I am relieved that you are referring to the correct Bible.

    1 Corinthians 9:

    20. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
    21. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
    22. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.
    23. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

    Dear Ryan, in this verses, Paul urges Christian to be humble and adaptable to situations when we share the Gospel. We should not act as a stumbling block by upholding unnecessary traditions / habit. I am sure the confusion comes in verse 21. “Be like those without the law? Bingo! You Christian hypocrites! So you approve illegal methods?” must be in your mind. But note “I am under Christ’s Law” in the bracket, in the same verse, which immediately refute your argument. As long as we follow Christ’s Law, we can be in the uncivilized jungle with no rules sharing the Gospels to tarzans in the correct way, even if it require us to jump from one trees to another, and wear minimum clothes like tarzans. But sodomy, hypnosis, and kidnapping is not in our dictionary.

    Romans 3:

    5. But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)
    6. Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?
    7. Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?”
    8. Why not say””as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say”””Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved.

    Read slowly, verse 5, God STILL bring His wrath upon us because of our unrighteousness, no matter what. Verse 8: Those who use evil method deserve to be condemned. Those methods disgust God. Again, it is clear that such disgusting methods must be avoided at all cost. We have to do what pleases God, and must avoid what disgusts God. That is Christian’s life.

    You read the bible with extreme hatred and extreme negative thinking. If you read the Quran (It has some encouraging-violence verses which must be interpreted very very carefully) in the same way, you’ll become the next Ryan bin Osama. Read slowly with a positive mind, and pray to God to enlighten you and give you wisdom.

    Btw, thank you for bringing up this issue, at least it is now clarified. God Bless you.

  16. avatar Veritas says:

    Shalom. I’m very intrigued to see this matter grew into a sort of religious debate–among Christianity and Islam particularly. Verses and phrases from Holy Books–The Holy Bible and The Holy Quran as well–are quoted, thrown and fired as justifications for the arguments given by the panelists.

    But among many comments and posts on this matter I’m particularly intrigued by the ones made by Suhada. This good fellow gave a bold, vibrant, and rather radical in some senses, yet soothing point of view on this matter. Sadly–but not necessarily surprisingly–some of us might as well disagree with his analysis.

    Dear Julita, I’m delighted wit your eagerness and keen spirit to give a percept of Christianity on this matter. I’ve read your posts and they were all well said and give us all a keen percept of Christianity. Yet–sadly so to speak–I must say that your posts on Suhada’s comments somehow missed the real message made by this good fellow.

    Yes, Suhada criticized Christianity–as bold as, and as well as criticized Islam. And it is understandable if you might see him as merely advocating his own faith–Islam in this case–by criticizing other faiths, particularly Christianity. But that can not be farther from the real message. Actually, this good fellow criticized the corruptions, the derailments, the biases that can be found in any given religious beliefs. Be it Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hindu, Confucianism, etc. He use Christianity–as well as Islam– merely as excerpt to his analysis.

    Somehow his analysis reminds me with the one made by Charles Kimball–a professor on religion study and the chairman of Wake Forest University Religion Department, which happen to be a pastor as well. And obviously this good fellow is a big fan of Ulil Abshar Abdalla–a pioneer among Indonesian liberal Muslim intellectuals. Their influence is very well palpable within his comments.

    Charles Kimball once depicted, within his profound book “When Religion Become Evil”, that all of the religions have been corrupted, derailed, and biased at some degrees. They have departed from their authentic virtues and values. They have somehow dissents from their authentic divine messages. The indications is somehow obvious but reluctantly acknowledge by the believers. According to professor Kimball the indications are:

    1) When a religion claims that their “truth” is the absolute truth, whereas the others are just mislead percept about the truth. We Christians see triumphalism as a very repellent stuff. We disgusted to hear the very word, yet in some degree we are inevitably, indeed, being very triumphant. How dear we embrace our privilege as “the heir of the Kingdom of Heaven” or as “the children of God”. How bold we state ourself as “the victorious ones”, “the chosen ones”. And how often we refer the rests as “the lost ones” as well as “the children of the world”. Those statements can be found within the very sermons in many Sunday Services. We might not refer the others as explicitly bold as our Muslims counterpart. They often refer the others as infidels. But somehow, sheepishly and subtly we also refer them within the same manner. Mr. Bush might not intend to Christianize Iraq and Afghan by the invasions. But how dearly he uses Christians term such as “crusaders” as well as “operation infinite justice” within his military maneuvers. And how vigorously he refers his opponents (i.e North Korea, Iran, Iraq) as “The Axis of Evil”.

    2)When within a religion there is a strong urge for blind obedience to their religious leader. While Osama bin Laden gives us a vivid and yet grim picture of the situation, the indication is not exclusively Islam by all mean. We can see similar situation within Christianity. From the trivial matters such as forbidding their follower to go to the cinemas–yes, such a ridiculous fact happen in Mawar Sharon Churches in Surabaya. Till such deadly acts of David Koresh–urging his follower to commit suicide in anticipating the second coming of The Saviour.

    3)When a religion is obsessed on jubilation era, hence strive to realize the era within their daily basis. The eagerness of having Syariah as the governance system strongly indicate the biases and derailments in Islam. But we must not forget that our brothers and sisters in Papua seem to share the same bewildering eagerness. They are anxious to have “Biblical Law” being established in Papua, since the vast majority Papua inhabitants are Christians. In United States the regulation based on Christian view is strongly visible. In France the government–which is vastly dominated by Catholics–forbid French Muslimah to wear head covers and any religious attributes affiliated to Islam.

    4)When a religion start to think in a teleological fashion. It start to see the “goal” as sufficient and legitimate justifications for the “way”. I really doubts the accuracy of the article above. Christianize people through sodomy and hypnosis? Come on guys! Get real! Soon they will start saying that we Christians ask the Martians to help us spreading Christianity and using their laser gun to convert people. It can not be more hilarious!! But I must admit that the attempt of converting others into Christianity in rather low manner really do exist. In a GKI Sulung Church in Surabaya, the non Christian scholarship recipients is obliged to attend a service. Sermons given, Christian hymn sang, Christian prayer said. And when I asked them why, their answer was just: “We must strive to reach for more souls for Jesus Christ.” And a certain fundamental Christian cell group in Siwalankerto Surabaya–nearby Petra Christian University–was baptizing small children from nearby neighborhood. They gave the children comic books, candies and when they get enough familiar with the kid they didn’t waste a time to baptize them.

    5)When a religion calls its believers to wage a Holy War. Jihad has been a familiar term that give Islam such a grim and grief image. But we must not forget how Urbanus once urged the crusaders to march toward Jerusalem. We must not defy the fact that during their invasion to Jerusalem our crusaders killed Muslims within their very mosques, and slaid Jews within their sinagoge. In the other hand, the great Saladdin spare them their life after regaining Jerusalem later. We must not forget how Hitler initiate the Holocaust. He–being a fundamental Christian–rest assured that he must avenge the sorrow of Christ made by the Jews by simply eradicate them. And the German Church was approving his bestial wicked maneuver.

    Our first and foremost mistake is defying the fact that our religion is not unique and immune to the pestilence plague–of corruptions, derailments and biases. Julita and Arema, tou speak of Christianity in a normative way. You speak of what should be Christianity. You speak of the ideal Christianity. Yet Suhada is speaking about the reality, about facts. And the facts truly is dissented from the ideal. We must not neglect the endeavor made by Mother Theresa. We must not forget how inclusive and noble was the late Pope John Paul. But we must not defying those grim and grief facts of our religion. Yes, Christianity has been corrupted, derailed and biased–as well as any other religions have. We must acknowledge the darker side. Hence we can strive to realize the ideals. Hopefully we Christian –as well as the other religions–will eventually be able to distinguish our authentic an true divine virtues and values. Thus we may not see this kind of ridiculous debates in the future. May God help us. God Speed! Gloria in exelcis Deo. Amen.

  17. avatar Ryan says:

    Ok before I’m fully off from this discussion since I would be very busy for next months, but I think it would be nice if I shout a final reply to you mr. Arema.

    And here my final reply to the blog.

    Arema Says:

    Dear Ryan, in this verses, Paul urges Christian to be humble and adaptable to situations when we share the Gospel. We should not act as a stumbling block by upholding unnecessary traditions / habit. I am sure the confusion comes in verse 21. “Be like those without the law? Bingo! You Christian hypocrites! So you approve illegal methods?” must be in your mind. But note “I am under Christ’s Law” in the bracket, in the same verse, which immediately refute your argument. As long as we follow Christ’s Law, we can be in the uncivilized jungle with no rules sharing the Gospels to tarzans in the correct way, even if it require us to jump from one trees to another, and wear minimum clothes like tarzans. But sodomy, hypnosis, and kidnapping is not in our dictionary.

    I think you tried to cover up or may be sugar coated the blatant deceitfulness which is clearly written in these texts. Skewing the hypocrisy’s method in the text would be useless, believe me. Your brief explanation is totally opposite with what Paul’s saying.

    Because you forgot this sentence; “20. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.” What this sentence tells you? deceitfulness or honesty, hypocrisy or sincerity? Lets give a little change to the sentence…”“To the Muslim I became like a Muslim,to win the Muslim”. What one should do and wear to become like Muslim? You answer by yourself

    Arema Says:
    Read slowly, verse 5, God STILL bring His wrath upon us because of our unrighteousness, no matter what. Verse 8: Those who use evil method deserve to be condemned. Those methods disgust God. Again, it is clear that such disgusting methods must be avoided at all cost. We have to do what pleases God, and must avoid what disgusts God. That is Christian’s life.

    You read the bible with extreme hatred and extreme negative thinking. If you read the Quran (It has some encouraging-violence verses which must be interpreted very very carefully) in the same way, you’ll become the next Ryan bin Osama. Read slowly with a positive mind, and pray to God to enlighten you and give you wisdom.

    Btw, thank you for bringing up this issue, at least it is now clarified. God Bless you.

    To understand these verses truly one should take a little extra concentration.

    Arema I want you to follow my following explanation carefully:
    5. But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)
    6. Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?

    Paul openly says that God would bring his wrath upon those who do unrighteousness in the verse 4, as follows:

    Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

    This is a provision that God alone be true and be righteous and the sentence ‘our unrighteousness (in verse 5)’ as a proof that we are inferior before God, because we are unrighteous. And the next question is, is our unrighteousness would go unpunished because this is a provision, isn’t it? No certainly not! (Verse 6) you shall be punished though it was a provision. Do you see me now Arema?

    And now we move to the verse 8:

    8Why not say””as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say”””Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved.

    Unfortunately Paul did not regard what he was doing evil deeds, therefore, he condemned those who said he was. Paul believed he was doing godly work, though it was godforsaken work, to glorified God’s name and truth by using all means of deceit, insincerity, ruse. (I Corinthians).

    Thus the verse 5 can’t be taken as a soap to clean Paul’s deceit method, as it was talking about something else (about a provision that God is superior than men) not about Paul deceit method, and Paul himself believed he was doing godly works.

    And one more thing, I don’t read Bible neither with hatred nor extreme negative thinking, I read exactly as Bible says and Bible’s notion.

    To all friends in this blog, I’d like to say thanks and forgive me if I said something impolite and bad, nice to be involved here. Again thanks and wassallam wr wb to my Muslim friends and god bless to my non-Muslim friends, ciau!

  18. avatar Arema says:

    Veritas, that’s a deep, thoughtful, and quality comment. I am touched. I acknowledge that what you’re saying is correct.

    Thank you for sharing it with us. God Bless you.

    Regards,
    Your neighbor Arema.

  19. avatar Julita says:

    I know Suhada is discussing in regard to many religions, as I said before, nicely, peacefully but sorry, somehow he went out of the way, otherwise I won’t care too much. Just one sentence from Suhada’s posting about Christianity :”But unfortunately, in MANY cases, THEY fall into such LOW PRACTICES in order to spread the faith. Thus, Veritas you can have your opinion but I make my point, it is NOT true.

  20. avatar Julita says:

    Veritas this is a very good discussion where people pitch in. Though to me truth is important and when we talk, especially negative, about any race or religion we better put our source. We have to discern people who use Christianity, Islam, Hindu etc for whatever their own purpose is. It does not mean that the Church agreed and that we have to agree with them. Remember Mr Bush went to meet with Holy Father John Paul II before he went to Iraq, and the Holy Father discouraged him. I can also do ugly things in the name of the Buddhist, whereas they are really peaceful people. Bush using the term ‘crusaders’, we could ask why but should we care. I am not against anybody, any religion. I am surrounded by multi faith, culture and race, we respect each other, though again in discussion to me ‘trutht is the thing.

  21. avatar Suhada says:

    Assalamualaikum. Dear Julita, I’m deeply sorry if there are any of my words that somehow perceived as being offensive to Christianity. I am not intended to discredit Christianity by all means. I respect Christianity as a Divine Religion. Even The Holy Quran itself acknowledges the divinity of Christianity.

    What I’ve tried to depict within my previous posts is for us to be aware of the corruptions, derailments, and biases within our very religions””Veritas had shed the light on this matter in a very profound manner. And truly, and sincerely, I’m using Christianity and Islam merely as excerpts of my theses.

    I must admit””and actually rather envious in a positive manner””and acknowledge the achievement made by Christianity. The divinity of Christianity is vividly potrayed and confirmed by the noble deeds and significant contribution of late Mother Theresa, late Pope John Paul, Frater Sandyawan, and late Frater J. B. Mangunwijaya””I believe they were just a few to be mentioned among many. I admire how Christianity encourage democracy and freedom of mind in many society””whereas we Muslims are still arguing on trivial matters such as head coverings, Syariah establishment, Swedish cartoons, and etc.

    I learn hermeneutic from my Christian colleagues. And I find the methodology””once being viewed as exclusively Christian””very enlightening in the matter of understanding the real message within Holy Texts. And I strive at my best to urge my Muslims comrades to apply the very method within our theology. I also learn how most of the Christians strive to have their faith on par with his ratio. By far, Christianity is the most influential among Abramistic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam).

    But Christianity by all means is not immune to the very pestilence plague””derailments, biases and corruptions””just as any other religions do. Yes Julita, we must not and can’t possibly neglects such a noble and significant achievements made by Christianity. But that is just one among many facets of Christianity. And sadly one of the other facets give us a rather grim and grief facts. Crusades and Holocaust stand for it in our history.

    Let me give you more intimate excerpt: in my campus I have this friend of mine who happen to be Christian. He came from a charismatic and rather fundamentalistic denomination. He came from GBI Bethany if I’m not mistaken. He oftentimes challenges his Muslims mates in theological debates. Here and there he insists that he just want to tell us about the real truth. He brought Christian books and gave it for free for some of his Muslims mates. Not to mention the VCDs, cassettes and many tractates. One which stand out among the many is the cassette of sermon given by Yusuf Roni””once Muslims clergy who turn out to convert into Christianity. These acts eventually irritated many of my college mates. And I must spend some time and effort on comforting them, my irritated and agitated Muslims mates. And you can just imagine what will happen if this friend of mine meet any of Habib Rizieq merry men. Furthermore, affirming what once said by Veritas in his post: I have a distant cousins who was granted with a scholarship from a certain Church, but she and her mother must spend some times once a month attending a Christian service before accepting the scholarship money.
    Those facts would never be able to eclipse the radiant and divine light of Christianity. But those facts must be acknowledged at first, hence you can strive at your best to find the real and divine message of Christianity.

    As for Islam part you can easily nail the excerpts of our corruptions, derailments and biases. Al-Qaeda, 9/11, FPI, Ahmadiyah, Bali bombings, Jihad, Syariah, head coverings and many more. I’m deeply concerned and embarrassed at some degree. But then I perceive them as vivid facts that must be acknowledged and evaluated. Thus we Muslims, insya Allah, eventually will be able to rediscover the real divine message of our religion as well.

    Last but not least, I hope you will be kind enough to see my comment on Syiah Muslim. It will offer you my percept on the matter””once you’ve inquired within you post: “Attacked on Shia Moslem, why do this? Very sad, indeed.”

    And finally, I’m very grateful and thankful for any feedback on my posts. Thank you Julita for being keen spirited. Thank you Arema for being thoughtful and respectable. And thank you Veritas for being vibrantly profound an incisive. May the peace of Allah be with you guys. Always.. Wassalam.

  22. avatar Abul says:

    Wow suhada, hats off to you and the other folks who still can manage to have this discussion goin’ gracefully. 😉

    Btw just want to say that I found your story about what happened in your campus as really true indeed. I’m myself a Christian, and it is really true (as has been described by veritas and you above) that some of my Christian fellows are really clumsy, ‘slonong-slonong dan tidak bijaksana’ in doing their business.
    I really believe the most graceful way of conversion is to have it come by itself in your own heart, grow day by day by looking at good deeds being done by the people whose religion is the one that you’ve come to admire. Learning, discussion, discourse should come after that.

    Personally I have always been ashamed of that sort of things done by my fellow Christians (though let it be clear that these guys never end up doing sodomization or any sick means no matter what), just exactly like the things that you have described. They’re really not wise and narrow-minded. what good is it for christ if by sharing the gospel you end up alienating the very people that you’d love to share the good news with? Isn’t it contradictory by itself? It is very clear for me that it is.

  23. avatar Arema says:

    Hi Suhada,
    Thank you for making your stand clear. Being a forum “newbie”, I was still trying to grasp your points at that time, and acting merely defending what I perceive as wrong claim(s) toward Christianity.

    I couldn’t agree more with your point that every religion has their own dark past. Every Christian should be ashamed of what happened during the dark ages of crusade, during the times just before Martin Luther stood up and said enough to corrupt church officials who had derailed the teaching so bad that it’s almost disgusting.

    We had failed yet again when the Christian people in Poso retaliated. They shouldn’t retaliated and stay true to who they are, Christians. But, I know the condition there is maybe too hot for any human to handle. The hatred between the two groups has reached astronomical level, so high that it could unshackle the normally peaceful Christians into beasts. The same thing happened in Maluku. But at least some positive note at the end, where families openly forgives Muslim criminals for killing their daughter (it is discussed in another IM topic). I’m not blaming anyone. We’re all just weak humans.

    We also failed in being a good example when people trying to spread the faith too hard that they betray that very faith itself in the process. Many do not like Christians because of this “blind charge”, and I am thankful that you still keep your Christian friend there alive. Our good intention is often overshadowed by the improper method, that leading to people thinking we’re triumphalistic bastards. Again, it’s the human factor here.

    It is good that you’re using hermeneutic method in your interpretations, which is a powerful tool indeed. Texts have to be analyzed based on the situations and conditions when it was written, only then you can extract its real meaning. Had Muslims interpreted the polygamy and jihad verses based on this, a lot of unnecessary casualties would have been avoided.

    Suhada, I want to point out to you two things regarding interpreting God’s Law. God is perfect and He transcends time, therefore, His Law must also be perfect and transcends time too. The principle “karena nila setitik rusak susu sebelanga” (translation for the sake of non-Indonesian: because of one drop of toxic, one big bowl of milk is spoiled) applies here. His Law must be perfectly flawless from the first until the end, then we’re sure it’s from the perfect God.

    Secondly, His Law must also transcends time (not limited by time) as He does. Whatever He stated as Law must continually work until the end of time, and can’t be outdated. The hot discussion on another IM thread where fellow Muslims debating the so-called “outdated and not in place” use of sunnah and hadith is a good example of laws that do not transcend time, imho. Government laws also undergo transformation all the time because it is made by us, imperfect humans.

    I hope you agreed on my two points above. It is true that we have to continually put our faith to the test, and carefully re-examine them time and time again. That way, we would not fall into the trap of blind faith and becoming blind followers. Only then we can practice what we believed with confidence, that it will really bring better lives not only to us, but to our neighbors as well.

    I encourage you to study using hermeneutics, and please share it too with your Muslim friends, for the best interest of you all. I pray for your studies.

    God Bless you.

  24. avatar Ryan says:

    Suhada Says:

    Assalamualaikum. Dear Julita, I’m deeply sorry if there are any of my words that somehow perceived as being offensive to Christianity. I am not intended to discredit Christianity by all means. I respect Christianity as a Divine Religion. Even The Holy Quran itself acknowledges the divinity of Christianity.

    Question for the bolded part: Which part in the Al Quran that says so?

  25. avatar Suhada says:

    Assalamualikum. Ryan, bold and faithful brother of mine, I am very delighted on your strive to stand for Islam. You are indeed keen spirited and passionate to shed light on this matter. Your posts reveal to us about your firm and unyielding faith in Islam. May Allah the merciful grant you with His utmost grace.

    In Holy Quran ones can find phrases that indeed acknowledge Abramistic religions””be it Islam, Christianity, and Judaism””as divine religions. Yet we can also find phrases that criticize both Judaism and Christianity””in rather stern manner so to speak.

    Such phrase as:”Rest assured that Believers (Muslims), Jews, Christians and Sabians – whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and performs good deeds – will be rewarded by their Lord; they will have nothing to fear or to regret.(Al-Baqarah 2:[62])” gives us Muslims a vivid excerpt how Allah the Compassionate and the Merciful Himself indeed acknowledge the divinity of the religions. In addition ones can turn to the particular phrase: “There is no compulsion in religion. True guidance has been made clearly distinct from error. (Al-Baqarah 2:[256])” to find that Allah demand us to respect diversity of faith. Furthermore Allah even demands Muslims to be contempt on offensive strives made by our Christian and Jews fellowmen”””Many among the people of the Book (Jews and Christians) wish they could somehow turn you back to unbelief, due to their selfish envy, after the truth has become quite clear to them. Forgive them and bear with them until Allah brings about His decision; rest assured that Allah has power over everything. (Al-Baqarah 2: [109])”. It is Allah Himself who will eventually shed the light on the matter in His Judgment Day (“so Allah will judge between them in their dispute on the Day of Judgment. (Al-Bagarah 2: [113])”). Hence Our due is just to submit ourselves before His sovereignity and be true of our faith””which is the literal meaning of the very word “Muslim”.

    It is very pleasing and peaceful to perceive the matter in such fashion. Yet the matter is far from such simplicity. Ones can also easily find phrases that reveal the rigid, stern and unyielding facet of Islam on this particular matter””inter-religions interaction. Such phrases as: “The Jews say: “Uzair (Azra) is the son of Allah,” and the Christians say: ” Messiah (Christ) is the son of Allah.” That is what they say with their mouths, Imitating the sayings of the former unbelievers. May Allah destroy them! How perverted they are! (Al-Tauba 9:[30])” or “They (Jews and Christians) say: “Allah has begotten a son!” Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His is all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth! Have you any proof for what you say? Would you ascribe to Allah something about which you have no knowledge? O Prophet, tell them: “Those who ascribe false things to Allah will never prosper.” Well, they may have a little enjoyment in this world, but eventually they have to return to Us and then We will make them taste the severest punishment for their unbelief. (Yunus10:[66-70])” or “O believers! Take neither Jews nor Christians as your protecting friends: they are only protecting friends of one another. Whoever of you disobeys this commandment will be counted as one of them. Surely Allah does not guide the wrongdoers. (Al-Ma’idah 5:[51])” will suffice to give ones a rather hard and stern perception of Islam to other faiths””particularly on Judaism and Christianity which happened to share some common historical and theological background with Islam.

    Both facets somehow seem quite contradictory to one and another. Thus ones can easily get obscured on the matter. Hence misleads is commonly to be found. We tend to fall into two extremes. Being aphateticly syncretical on one side or being violently triumphalistic on the other side. Then how should we perceive this matter? How should A Muslim cope with this contradictory?

    Unfortunately there is no such an easy way or tricks. Ones should scrutinize many aspects in Islam to find a conclusive solution on the matter. As Muslims we are obliged to follow the example of our Rasulullah. Let us look deeply on what he actually did and perceived on this matter.

    It was said that when Rasullulah victoriously entered Mecca in Fathu Makkah he commanded his followers to seek and then destroy every single form of idols and statues that represented pagan idolatry. When his followers found the picture of Maryam and Isa al-Masih within the Kakbah, Rasulullah bade them to treat it in a respectful manner. They handed the picture to Rasulullah, who then dearly embraced the picture and kept it securely under his coat (al-Arzaqi, Akhbar Makkah). Furthermore Rasulullah demanded his follower to spore the statue of Maryam (at one of the pillars of Kakbah) and the statue of Isa al-Masih (at the hijir of Kakbah), and let the statues gracefully be the parts of the Holy Kakbah(Kardi Ali, al-Islam wa al-Hadlarah, juz 1) The very situation indicated how Rasulullah himself respected and acknowledged Christianity as divine religion.

    Once a delegation of 60 Najran Christian leaders paid a visit to Rasulullah. The delegation was led by Abdul Masih, al-Hayam, and Abu Haritsah bin Alqama. Rasulullah accepted the visit in a very warm and respectable fashion. When it was the time for the delegation to held their ritual Sunday service Rasulullah himself even insisted them to freely used a mosque to held their service (Ibnu Hisyam, al-Siyrah al-Nabawiyah, juz 2). The situation””again””confirmed that Rasulullah paid a great respect on Christianity””not just to Marjam and Isa al-Masih but even to their followers as well. In many stories and traditions Rasulullah express how deeply he respect Isa al-Masih. Furthermore he even once stated that none in this earth so dearly loves and admires Isa al-Masih as he is.

    Rasulullahs percept on Isa al-Masih obviously different from Christian view. Rasulullah perceive Isa a-Masih as a great prophet, and Christians view him as the incarnation of God Himself. But the difference is not necessarily prompted Rasulullah to disregard and despise Christianity. Rasulullah acknowledged and respected Christianity as a divine religion. Hence, we Muslims must””therefore””pay the same respect and acknowledgement to Christianity.

    As for the judgment, let alone Allah Himself””within his compassion and mercy– make it clear in The Day of Judgment. Again I would like to quote the very words of Abdurrahman Wahid: Allah needs no defending!

    We must be able to see beyond our theological differences and tradition. We must leave our primodial prejudices. Hence, Insya Allah, we can share this fragile planet of ours in a peaceful manner.
    Ryan, hopefully this comment will shed light on your inquiry. Thank you for being straight forward and honest in your faith. May the peace of Allah the Compassionate and the Merciful be with you. Always. Wassalam..

  26. avatar Julita says:

    If they were true, the little incidents of trying to convert people to Christianity given by Suhada and Veritas are nothing compared to the conversion in the world which people try to force on others, it is almost a matter of life and death. So be at peace my friends. I have a suggestion, be strong in your own Faith, religion is from the heart nobody can force it anybody, show your example of love around you, otherwise your very own children will run away from what you believe. In your judgment, action and daily life, in every way. In this way you will attract others. Suhada, I am sure those adult know very well what to do, just don’t mingle with the person. Veritas: Those children in the neighborhood where are their mothers? Ridiculous, get children from the neighborhood, give them lollipops, put them in the water. It is not that simple the following is just a bird’s eye view which will show what a valid baptism is and how it is done, not that simple as you might think, so be at peace:

    Incredible character is given in baptism. The phrase expresses the unique nature of belonging to Jesus Christ, something which God will never undo.
    A. Talks with parents: Before baptizing a child the priest meets the parents and explains the meaning of baptism and the details of the rite of baptism. This is intended to help parents to become aware of obligations they take upon themselves for the child and to encourage them in their own faith.
    B. Godparent or sponsor: The godparent has an obligation to share concern for the religious education of the person baptized(or confirmed). He should therefore be mature in his own attitude to the faith and the Christian life. He must be a member of the Catholic church. A Christian who is not a Catholic might be allowed to assist a Catholic godparent.
    C. Catehumenate: The word refers to the preparation undertaken by the catechumens (Gr. Those receiving instruction in the faith) and the actual form of instruction. This take sometime.
    D. Rite of baptism: Ordinarily baptism is administered by a priest (or deacon).

    You are referring to the Crusades and Holocaust. I know for some it is a joy to point their fingers at others, but crusades and holocaust have nothing to do with what we are discussing in this blog on “Christianisation” in “Indonesia Matters”. It is also something which happened long in the past.
    The Crusades I already discussed in my previous posting, and I am not going to repeat, thus I will reply, with pleasure, about the Holocaust:

    Before I go on, I would like to share with you this beautiful gift which I come across and worth remembering for all of us: Arch. F. Sheen

    “The readings to believe evil about others is in large part ammunition for thousand scandals in our own hearts but finding black spots in others, they believe they distract attention from their own miserable state. The good conscience, on the contrary, finds good in others even when there is some discontent with self”.

    “It has always been a mystery to me how men fell themselves nonoured by the humiliation of their fellow beings.”

    Do read carefully and put it into our hearts, we should change and always, always find the TRUTH. Don’t imitate those whoa re ignorant:

    During and after the war, many well-known Jews””Albert Einstein, Golda Meir, Moshe Sharett, Rabbi Isaac Herzog, and innumerable others””publicly expressed their gratitude to Pius. In his 1967 book Three Popes and the Jews, the diplomat Pinchas Lapide (who served as Israeli consul in Milan and interviewed Italian Holocaust survivors) declared Pius XII “was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands.”
    Largely as a result of the Church’s efforts, the Jews in Italy had a far higher survival rate under Nazi occupation than was the case in other countries; estimates of the number of Jews saved by the Vatican’s efforts range up to several hundred thousand; this was one reason why the chief Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism at the end of the war;
    –In appreciation of what Pius did for the Jews, the World Jewish Congress made a large cash gift to the Vatican in 1945; in the same year, Rabbi Herzog of Jerusalem sent a “special blessing” to the Pope “for his lifesaving efforts on behalf of the Jews during the Nazi occupation of Italy”; and when Pius died in 1958, Israel’s Foreign Minister Golda Meir gave a him moving eulogy at the United Nations for the same reason

  27. avatar Abul says:

    get children from the neighborhood, give them lollipops, put them in the water. It is not that simple the following is just a bird’s eye view which will show what a valid baptism is and how it is done, not that simple as you might think, so be at peace:

    That’s formal baptism that you’re talking about, I’m never been worried of formal baptism due to its regulated nature and all of that. What makes me worried is clandestine baptism being done by clandestine Christians, these guys are pretty much radical in doing their business as described above by suhada and veritas, they pay little attention to those things you just described. 😉
    Not good, this kind of things are only bringing unnecessary fuss and troubles, and it’s pretty much contradictory to its own purpose.

  28. avatar Julita says:

    Well, you have the right to disagree. What I know is only the formal one otherwise to us they are invalid. Yes, there thousands more the so called churches. So I cannot answer for them, but poeple are smart they know what to do.

  29. avatar Dragonwall says:

    If in on-in-a-million chance that this story is true, let me assure you brothers, those are NOT Christians.

    I think any logical thinking will deemed that to be impossible and looks more animated by their own people trying to sabotage by creating such things. Usually Baptism is done in a church and in the open. Never before in a dark room. Or perhaps have you guys heard of people seeking employment were lured to Plaza Central where it was thought someone had rented a whole floor specially to bring in people to worship Satan. (Salib Upside Down). This is also one of those ploy trying to induce the public into converting from whoever they are to..chaos.

    From: Solhot Silaban Date: 02/20/06 17:00:59 To: Solhot Silaban
    Subject: FW: Gereja Setan di Jln pasteur Bandung dan Plaza central sudirman jakarta
    hati-hati!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    selasa tgl 2 pebruary waktu itu gw lagilunch bareng teman, gw kenalan dengan seorang wanita yang penampilanya ok, dia mengaku bahwa dia kerja di plaza sentral sudirman lt 23. besoknya rabu aku dapat tlp untuk interview kerja di lt 23 plaza central sudirman, setelah di terima oleh CS, aku disuruh menunggu di ruang tunggu, ruanganya besar tapi agak gelap, setelah nunggu 5 menit, aku mulai merasa ruangannya aneh,
    kantor tapi gelap. tidak berapa lama kemudian, aku kaget karna cewek yang aku
    kenal waktu lunch kemarin dia yang menginterview, aku merasa ada yang ga beres. lalu dipersilakan menuju ruang interview, betapa kagetnya aku, bahwa disitu ada salib terbalik, dan gambar2 yang menurut gw sangat bertentangan dengan agama, dan org2 disekitar situ pada umumnya ororang2 muda.setelah di interview yang tugas utamanya adalah untukmenarik orang2 muda untuk masuk ke dalam gereja setan. 1 org dapat
    berarti menerima gaji 2 juta. kontan aku menolak dan langsung pergi….seblum sampe pintu utama ktr itu, aku merasa ada sesuatu menarik aku kembali, lalu cewek itu datang kembali dan memikirkan keputusanku. aku di berikan sebuah buku di dalamnya tentang visi dan misi gereja setan.dan gereja terbesar ada di jln pasteur bandung.
    mungkin diantara teman2 ada yang mendapat tlp utk di interview dengan alamat plaza central lt 23, harap hati2…. krn seluruh lt 23 hanya ada 1 perusahaan, itu adalah mereka .(pt brotherhood group)

    Sp watch out it could be worse…..

  30. avatar Saul Wall says:

    Gun-toting brainwashing evangelists swarming in wave after wave through the gates of campuses to sodomize Muslims into becoming “confirmed believer and a militant evangelist for Christianity”. It’s Battlefield Earth for Muslims. Islamic scholars need to be informed that Scientology and the Mormons have both stolen their Islam’s patented crazy pills and are now violating their business model.

Comment on “Christianisation”.

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