Capital Punishment

Jan 25th, 2007, in News, by

Capital punishment is opposed to the Constitution, says Todung Mulya Lubis.

Todung Mulya Lubis, a lawyer representing four condemned-to-death narcotics offenders in Jakarta, says that the death penalty is in contradiction of the 1945 constitution, given that the constitution guarantees the right each citizen to live his life.

Todung Mulya Lubis
Todung Mulya Lubis.

Additionally, he says that the relevant law, Number 22 of 1997 on Narcotics, is opposed to the philosophy of the Indonesian criminal justice system, that is, that the primary purpose of punishment is the rehabilitation of offenders and their reintegration into society.

What's more, he says, it often occurs that after executions have been carried out new evidence is found which casts doubt on the validity of the original convictions.

He also argues that those crimes which are punishable by death, such as murder and drug trafficking, have experienced increases in rates of occurrence, proving that capital punishment is not an effective deterrent.

Finally he suggested that the worldwide trend was against the Indonesian position: 88 states had abolished the death penalty, 11 had reserved the penalty for uncommon crimes such as treason, and 30 countries had placed a moratorium on any further death sentences. Indonesia was one of 68 nations which still regularly employed state-sanctioned killing, he said. kompas


90 Comments on “Capital Punishment”

  1. avatar Fanglong says:

    Jailing is not killing.

  2. avatar Achmad Sudarsono says:

    Robert,

    ‘Rights’ are basically a legal concept. Unless we all subscribe to the same moral absolutes, which we don’t, there’s just no such thing as a universal right. ‘Legal’ rights however, are a reality. They can be given. They can be taken away.

    One of the definitions of the state is the corporate entity that has a monopoly on the rightful use of force ie violence. The army is the most powerful statement of the state reserving the ‘right’ to kill.

    It might not be right, but is a ‘right.’

    The sad reality is that threats have a deterrent effect. That’s why we don’t go stealing from mass department stories, not usually because it’s ‘right’, but because we’ll get caught. And punished.

    Now you just keep saying over and over again that there’s no proof that the threat of death has no deterrent effect. I’d say the onus of proof is on you, pal.

    I’m not advocating the death penality; I’m just saying that we need to know if it works to deter possible criminals and if it does, then it’s probably more compassionate than the alternative.

    If it doesn’t, all the better.

    Achmad

  3. avatar 1ndra says:

    We’re too soft to these drug dealers.
    Jail is to soft for people who destroy other people life, prosperity and sure destroying a country too by a soft invasion.

  4. avatar Bas says:

    It seams to me that dealing with drugs capital punishment is essentially aplicated to foreigners.
    My ex girlfriend’s brother use(d?) to sell drugs (marijuana). He got caught by the police. What happened to him? The police just beated him a little and stole the valuables from his room (DVD player, money). “Habis perkara”. Case closed.

    Now if a westerner is caught selling drug. What will happen to him?

  5. avatar Dimp says:

    Now if a westerner is caught selling drug. What will happen to him?

    Depends on whether he knows how the Indonesian justice or injustice system works. He/she needs to keep the media away so the bribing will be more effective.

  6. avatar Robert says:

    Achmad,

    I fully agree with your statements concerning ‘Rights’ and the monopoly of violence of the state.

    The sad reality is that threats have a deterrent effect. That’s why we don’t go stealing from mass department stories, not usually because it’s ‘right’, but because we’ll get caught. And punished.

    I don’t go stealing because it is wrong to do so, not because I might get caught and punished. I do sincerely hope that most people have enough moral sense not to steal (and commit other crimes like murder etc.)

    Now you just keep saying over and over again that there’s no proof that the threat of death has no deterrent effect. I’d say the onus of proof is on you, pal.

    I won’t dwell on this subject any longer. We have different opinions on this subject, well so be it. When I find proof (reports, case studies) I will let you know.

    I’m not advocating the death penality; I’m just saying that we need to know if it works to deter possible criminals and if it does, then it’s probably more compassionate than the alternative.

    As you would have understand already, I am not an advocate of the death penalty either. Apart from the effectiveness there is the problem that death penalty is irreversible. In the past people have been executed who appeared to be innocent later on when new evidence was found. But foremost I find death penalty immoral, it is stupid primitive behaviour.

  7. avatar Dimp says:

    Hi Robert,

    But foremost I find death penalty immoral, it is stupid primitive behaviour.

    I know capital punishment is harsh, but again when someone has acted with extreme malice and disregard laws and common courtesy as part of a community, then death penalty is warranted.

  8. avatar Sayid says:

    With justice, punishments should fit the crime. The death penalty is not fitting for minor drug offences nor are prison sentences.

    If someone steals something, they should be made to pay for the cost of their crime i.e. repayment to the victim plus repayment to the state to cover the cost of bringing justice.

    If someone is a threat to the safety of others in society, then they should be locked up to protect society. This in my opinion should be the only situation when prisons are used. Steps should be taken to prevent prisoners from being brutalised by prison workers and each other. Efforts should be made to rehabilitate the criminal. A feeling of guilt can be a powerful motivator for repentance. A feeling of anger towards the state or society is common among criminals who have received draconian punishments and no rehabilitation.

    If a punishment goes beyond the moral cost of the crime, it becomes a form of injustice created by the state.

    If the punishment negatively affects a third party in a large way, it also makes it a form of injustice created by the state. If the main provider of a family is locked up, it is bad for the economy and devastating for the family’s well being.

    If someone is to be made a criminal there needs to be a victim.

    All people should be treated as innocent until proven guilty. Punishing an innocent person is far worse than letting someone guilty go free. The Indonesian judiciary tends to use likelihood rather than absolute proof. It would be quite easy to frame someone there. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of those executed are actually innocent.

    People who are suspects of a crime should have the right to defend themselves in court and have legal representation.

    The Indonesian justice system is full of racism and other prejudice.

    Raising the West Papuan flag is considered to be a crime by the Indonesian government and is punishable by a 15 year sentence. In contrast, an Indonesian General responsible for mass murder in East Timor got a 2 year sentence and his job back. A young Australian who may or may not have been responsible for her cannabis possession got a 20 year sentence. A young Australian who pretended to have converted to Islam, who was responsible for her drug possession got a few months behind bars. A group of Australian drug traffickers first receive life sentences then received the death penalty after they appealed.

  9. avatar 1ndra says:

    Cmon, are they have morality by selling those drugs?
    No, they care only for the money.

    It should be called an invasion. Destroying a nation from the inside. That’s a very big crime.
    And the punishment should be big.

  10. avatar Fanglong says:

    I think, Sayid, you have spoken with wisdom. Thank you for the clear summary.

  11. avatar Dimp says:

    Hi Sayid,

    Just commenting on this:

    If the main provider of a family is locked up, it is bad for the economy and devastating for the family’s well being.

    True that it is bad and devastating, but as a main provider of a family, he/she must considered that his/her actions will affect the family, if he/she chose the illegal way he/she must pay for it and he/she has then also failed the family.

    Just because a criminal has a family doesn’t justify him not being locked up for the crimes that he/she did.

    I know I am talking in an ideal world, which is Indonesia far from it. I am not an advocate for capital punishment, but as you say, the punishment should fit the crime. When a capital punishment is warranted then maybe it is the only way to punish these criminals.

  12. avatar 1ndra says:

    Raising the West Papuan flag is considered to be a crime by the Indonesian government and is punishable by a 15 year sentence.

    This is called treason, supporting for disintegration.

  13. avatar Sayid says:

    Cmon, are they have morality by selling those drugs?
    No, they care only for the money.

    I never said drug dealing was ok. I personally think drug dealing is immoral and should be a punishable offence.

    I just think that the punishment should fit the crime, not come at the cost to an innocent 3rd party and only happen if there is proof of guilt. The Shapelle Corby case had none of these.

    It should be called an invasion. Destroying a nation from the inside. That’s a very big crime. And the punishment should be big.

    It shouldn’t be called an invasion because it isn’t an invasion. It should be called drug trafficking because that is what it is.

    Drugs vary in their level of harm. I think marijuana should be treated differently to methamphetamines and heroine because it is far less harmful. Cigarette smoking would cause far more premature deaths in Indonesia than illegal drugs do. If people are educated about the dangers of drugs, they are far less likely to take them. Drug traffickers are harming a few people, not destroying an entire nation.

    Indonesia has far bigger problems such as corruption, ethnic tension, Indonesian troops murdering thousands of Papuans, a lack of local ownership of productive assets and sweatshop conditions in the workplace. In Indonesia, these problems are more harmful than illegal drugs.

    I think drug traffickers should be fined then deported. The fines should be based on the cost of the crime i.e. on the quantity and type of drugs involved. If the traffickers are from a developed country, chances are they have the ability to pay fines considered to be a fortune by many Indonesians.

    Life sentences are costly to the Indonesian taxpayer. Since people are getting them without proof of guilt, many foreigners from rich countries (especially Australia) have been afraid to go on holiday to Indonesia.

    Drug trafficking is done by people who are certain they can get away with it. It has little to do with the harshness of the punishment. Fines would be more economical and more equitable, while still providing a deterrent.

    ___________

    True that it is bad and devastating, but as a main provider of a family, he/she must considered that his/her actions will affect the family, if he/she chose the illegal way he/she must pay for it and he/she has then also failed the family.

    It is the state’s actions that harm the family, not the criminal’s. The family members are an innocent 3rd party that get harmed. In most cases, the state doesn’t need to harm the innocent in order to punish the criminal. Fines and community service for non-violent offenders could be used instead of imprisonment. If the criminal can’t afford to pay the fine immediately, they could have their wages garnished.

    In Indonesia, there is an inadequate level of social services or employment regulation. Most people would resort to crime in order to feed themselves and their families, if they couldn’t afford to do so legally. Dealing with these social problems would go a long way to reducing crime.

    Indonesia is resource rich yet the bulk of the profit (from gas, oil, mining etc) falls into the pockets of a few rich Westerners. A lack of local asset ownership is one of the main reasons why many Indonesians have such poor living standards and why there isn’t social justice.

    Just because a criminal has a family doesn’t justify him not being locked up for the crimes that he/she did.

    I wasn’t implying that punishments should depend on whether or not they have a family. I think that justice should be applied consistently (but fairly) with one law for all.

  14. avatar Sayid says:

    This is called treason, supporting for disintegration.

    It isn’t treason. It is an expression of opinion. West Papuans would be unlikely to hold such an opinion if they weren’t brutalised by the Indonesian military.

    Raising the West Papuan flag has no victim.

    West Papua wasn’t originally part of Indonesia and was invaded by the Indonesian military. West Papuans had no say in the matter. Many of them want independence for West Papua. The main reason why so many of them want independence is because of how poorly they have been treated by the Indonesian government and military.

    Conservative estimates suggest that around 100,000 West Papuans have been murdered by the Indonesian military. The brutality is still happening today. In March 2006, large student demonstrations against Freeport mining operations broke out in Jayapura, West Papua’s capital. Students were arrested, tortured and forced to confess to taking part in violence by the Indonesian military and police.

    The plight of the West Papuans is very similar to the plight of the East Timorese. After the East Timorese voted in favour of independence, Soeharto’s regime murdered around a third of the total population of East Timor. Thousands were starved to death. Women and children weren’t spared.

    I strongly recommend that the Indonesian government apologize to the people of West Papua, make reparations, withdraw troops and allow West Papuans to have free speech and other human rights.

    History has shown that most independence movements have been in response to abusive regimes rather than being motivated by greed. If the Indonesian government wants to keep Indonesia whole, it should start treating the West Papuans fairly.

    ____________

    This is called treason, supporting for disintegration.

    If anyone should be charged with treason, it should be Suharto for selling Indonesia out to Western multinationals and stealing a fortune worth at least $15 billion (US) from government coffers.

  15. avatar Fanglong says:

    If I had time to write, I would have said the same as Sayid. Thank you, guy !

  16. avatar Dimp says:

    Hi Sayid,

    It is the state’s actions that harm the family, not the criminal’s. The family members are an innocent 3rd party that get harmed. In most cases, the state doesn’t need to harm the innocent in order to punish the criminal. Fines and community service for non-violent offenders could be used instead of imprisonment.

    Yes, but the state’s was reacting to the criminal’s actions. True that the family members are innocent 3rd party, but again please don’t blame the law, you should always blame the criminals, don’t blame others because of one’s unlawful acts. Fines and community service unfortunately are not deterrent enough for some criminals.

    In Indonesia, there is an inadequate level of social services or employment regulation. Most people would resort to crime in order to feed themselves and their families, if they couldn’t afford to do so legally. Dealing with these social problems would go a long way to reducing crime.

    There is no reason for one to act unlawfully, you always have choice, there is no reason why one have to resort to crime, again I don’t agree with you, when one is honest one will always try to find a way to work, there will always be work available just because one is lazy does not warrant one to commit criminal act.

    Indonesia is resource rich yet the bulk of the profit (from gas, oil, mining etc) falls into the pockets of a few rich Westerners.

    Again, blaming others for one’s misfortune, don’t blame Westerners because they are smart enough to exploit the resources of other countries, again this is the mentality of lazy Indonesians who prefers to let others work for them and when the others seem richer than they are, then they start blaming others.

    I think that justice should be applied consistently (but fairly) with one law for all.

    I totally agree with you on this one.

  17. avatar 1ndra says:

    There is no reason for one to act unlawfully, you always have choice, there is no reason why one have to resort to crime, again I don’t agree with you, when one is honest one will always try to find a way to work, there will always be work available just because one is lazy does not warrant one to commit criminal act.

    True. I always hear that many criminals use their crime product only to drunk, gambling, prostitution.

    Again, blaming others for one’s misfortune, don’t blame Westerners because they are smart enough to exploit the resources of other countries, again this is the mentality of lazy Indonesians who prefers to let others work for them and when the others seem richer than they are, then they start blaming others.

    Our people “some are might be inteligent one (Mahasiswa)” have been invaded by drug that crack their brain to zero, then they have nothing to think about Indonesian’s future and others country will take care of it. 🙂

  18. avatar Sayid says:

    Yes, but the state’s was reacting to the criminal’s actions. True that the family members are innocent 3rd party, but again please don’t blame the law, you should always blame the criminals, don’t blame others because of one’s unlawful acts.

    Why shouldn’t the state be blamed for its wrong doing?

    The Indonesian state can act in less harmful ways but doesn’t.

    Just because a criminal does something wrong, it doesn’t mean the state isn’t wrong for its response.

    One of the roles of the state is to correct externalities. Externalities are positive or negative side effects to a 3rd party due to consumption or production. The Indonesian judiciary is doing the opposite by harming innocent 3rd parties.

    Fines and community service unfortunately are not deterrent enough for some criminals.

    Neither does the death penalty or lengthy prison sentences. I never claimed that fines and community service would eliminate crime.

    There is no reason for one to act unlawfully, you always have choice, there is no reason why one have to resort to crime, again I don’t agree with you, when one is honest one will always try to find a way to work, there will always be work available just because one is lazy does not warrant one to commit criminal act.

    As I have stated earlier, necessity is a good reason to act unlawfully. If it was a choice between acting unlawfully or letting your family die of starvation, the vast majority of people would choose to act unlawfully.

    There isn’t always work available and much of the work available doesn’t pay a living wage. There are people working in Jakarta’s sweatshops that work 16 hour shifts and get paid around $2 US to do so. In recent years, many of the sweatshops didn’t allow their workers to have toilet breaks – resulting in the workers urinating their pants on the job. The workers don’t get paid enough money to cover the costs of adequate nourishment, health-care and housing for their family.

    If crime is to be reduced significantly, the needs of the people must be satisfied.

    Another reason to act unlawfully is to resist an unethical law or oppression by a state. West Papuan resistance to the brutal occupation by Indonesia’s military, is justifiable. Illegal isn’t the same thing as immoral.

    Again, blaming others for one’s misfortune, don’t blame Westerners because they are smart enough to exploit the resources of other countries, again this is the mentality of lazy Indonesians who prefers to let others work for them and when the others seem richer than they are, then they start blaming others.

    The US government is much to blame for Indonesia’s economic situation. The CIA backed Suharto when he took power. The US government supported Suharto while he was committing atrocities such as genocide in East Timor.

    Suharto sold the country out to Western business interests at the expense of the majority of Indonesians. Indonesia now has a lack of local ownership over productive assets. For more info, see my comment on the FDI thread.

    Many Indonesians work very long hours just to survive. Their is an enormous discrepancy between what they get paid and the value of their work. The owners of Western multinationals do very little work yet make huge fortunes from the work Indonesians do. The owners of Western multinationals are the lazy ones; not Indonesians.

    Its not that Westerners are smart, it is that their economies are developed. Western corporations have huge amounts of money. Their investment ends up crowding out a lot of local investment. Being smart or being rich isn’t the same thing as doing what is right. Western multinationals and the US Federal government have behaved appallingly in the way they have treated Indonesians.

    For example, Freeport mining:
    “¢ Since 1967, US company Freeport McMoRan has been mining copper and gold in Indonesian Military occupied West Papua.
    “¢ Every day Freeport’s Grasberg gold mine dumps as much as 700,000 tonnes of mining waste into West Papua’s rivers. They have completely destroyed the traditional lands that the indigenous Amungme and Kamoro people rely on for survival and have forcibly displaced people from their villages.
    “¢ Over its entire operational history in West Papua, Freeport provided the Indonesian Military, who have killed around 100,000 Papuan civilians, with large amounts of money for “security”.
    “¢ Whenever West Papuan people take protest action against Freeport they often end up dead. In the past, the Indonesian Military has even bombed villages with cluster bombs after disruptions to mining.
    “¢ In March this year, large student demonstrations against Freeport broke out in Jayapura, West Papua’s capital. Students were arrested, tortured and forced to confess to taking part in violence by the Indonesian military and police.

  19. avatar Sayid says:

    True. I always hear that many criminals use their crime product only to drunk, gambling, prostitution.

    Some would steal to satisfy an addiction. Others would steal to satisfy needs.

  20. avatar 1ndra says:

    Some would steal to satisfy an addiction. Others would steal to satisfy needs.

    And the one who steal for their family are rare, next to never.
    Just watch the news, my friends, they used for ‘foya-foya’.

  21. avatar Dimp says:

    Hi Sayid,

    Why shouldn’t the state be blamed for its wrong doing?

    The Indonesian state can act in less harmful ways but doesn’t.

    Just because a criminal does something wrong, it doesn’t mean the state isn’t wrong for its response.

    So how do you think the state need to react to crimes?

    One of the roles of the state is to correct externalities. Externalities are positive or negative side effects to a 3rd party due to consumption or production. The Indonesian judiciary is doing the opposite by harming innocent 3rd parties.

    One has to be responsible for one’s act, if you commit a crime you have to pay, before you commit a crime you have to consider how your action would affect others as well.

    Neither does the death penalty or lengthy prison sentences. I never claimed that fines and community service would eliminate crime.

    Then what is the point of having fines then, when you put some criminals away for good (either through death penalty or lengthy prison sentences) at least they won’t be committing any more crimes.

    As I have stated earlier, necessity is a good reason to act unlawfully. If it was a choice between acting unlawfully or letting your family die of starvation, the vast majority of people would choose to act unlawfully.

    So when ones family is starving it is justified for him to commit crime? You always have choices. If you are poor then this is no reason for one to commit crime, can you imagine if every poor people commit crime in Indonesia because they just want to feed themselves?

    There isn’t always work available and much of the work available doesn’t pay a living wage. There are people working in Jakarta’s sweatshops that work 16 hour shifts and get paid around $2 US to do so. In recent years, many of the sweatshops didn’t allow their workers to have toilet breaks – resulting in the workers urinating their pants on the job. The workers don’t get paid enough money to cover the costs of adequate nourishment, health-care and housing for their family.

    Then move somewhere else, you said it yourself that Indonesia is rich, then move away from Jakarta, the reason that they don’t want to move is because they have this dream of becoming rich quickly in Jakarta, you can see that Indonesians are to ashamed to be “petani” anymore, they prefer to work in office buildings in the capital city.

    If crime is to be reduced significantly, the needs of the people must be satisfied.

    Yes, but the people have to be willing to work as well.

    Another reason to act unlawfully is to resist an unethical law or oppression by a state. West Papuan resistance to the brutal occupation by Indonesia’s military, is justifiable. Illegal isn’t the same thing as immoral.

    This I agree, unfortunately our brothers in West Papuan are getting the short end of the stick.

    The US government is much to blame for Indonesia’s economic situation. The CIA backed Suharto when he took power. The US government supported Suharto while he was committing atrocities such as genocide in East Timor.

    Suharto sold the country out to Western business interests at the expense of the majority of Indonesians. Indonesia now has a lack of local ownership over productive assets. For more info, see my comment on the FDI thread.

    Blame Suharto then.

    Many Indonesians work very long hours just to survive. Their is an enormous discrepancy between what they get paid and the value of their work. The owners of Western multinationals do very little work yet make huge fortunes from the work Indonesians do. The owners of Western multinationals are the lazy ones; not Indonesians.

    I think you are a bit delutional here, anybody can tell you when they think of Indonesian they will think of one word, “lazy”. It is a bit unfortunate but true. Don’t tell me about working long hours, if you compare the Indonesian workers against the Chinese workers (in China I mean), I think you will be surprised. They work hard and they save their money. Now compare this to Indonesians, just during Lebaran they will try to spend their money to show off to their relatives back in kampung.

    Its not that Westerners are smart, it is that their economies are developed. Western corporations have huge amounts of money. Their investment ends up crowding out a lot of local investment. Being smart or being rich isn’t the same thing as doing what is right. Western multinationals and the US Federal government have behaved appallingly in the way they have treated Indonesians.

    And why are their economies are developed? Because they are smart.

    For example, Freeport mining:
    “¢ Since 1967, US company Freeport McMoRan has been mining copper and gold in Indonesian Military occupied West Papua.
    “¢ Every day Freeport’s Grasberg gold mine dumps as much as 700,000 tonnes of mining waste into West Papua’s rivers. They have completely destroyed the traditional lands that the indigenous Amungme and Kamoro people rely on for survival and have forcibly displaced people from their villages.
    “¢ Over its entire operational history in West Papua, Freeport provided the Indonesian Military, who have killed around 100,000 Papuan civilians, with large amounts of money for “security”.
    “¢ Whenever West Papuan people take protest action against Freeport they often end up dead. In the past, the Indonesian Military has even bombed villages with cluster bombs after disruptions to mining.
    “¢ In March this year, large student demonstrations against Freeport broke out in Jayapura, West Papua’s capital. Students were arrested, tortured and forced to confess to taking part in violence by the Indonesian military and police.

    Again blame Suharto for this, he is the one who allowed Freeport to mine in Papua.

    Sayid, I really don’t want to argue with you, I think you are a very intelligent person, but I have a feeling that you are clouded by the perception that Westerners are bad and the Indonesian government are ruthless. I know that West Papuans were not treated fairly, but again this is the Indonesian government’s fault not the Westerners, true they were a part of the problem, but we should come up with the solution. SBY needs to be more strict with corruption that is one thing I want to see, he also need to build infrastructure outside Jakarta, this way people will be more willing to work outside the capital. I just can’t believe that we are still mostly using the railways from ‘jaman Belanda’.

    We have been freed from colonisation from 1945, but what achievements have we made? Compare this with India, Vietnam, they are moving forward while Indonesia seems to be backtracking every year. Malaysia are years ahead of us, if you look at the people you can see how different their mentality compared to Indonesians.

    Anyway, nice to discuss things with you. I learn a lot from you, hopefully my comments make sense to you.

  22. avatar 1ndra says:

    Good posts Dimp. 🙂
    I agree with you.

  23. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Bas, I half agreed with your earlier posting.

    Drug dealers are among the most useful people in Indonesia! Thanks to them many useless people die every day. Why arresting them?

    I agree that there are many useless people, many unfortunately sit in the parliament or govt seats.

    But have you ever had your loved one addicted to drugs? Man, it’s so painful to see them die slowly and shifting their great ‘love’ to this pills, leaves, or whatever. And they love the drugs more than themselves let alone caring for friends and family. SO, my point is, if your loved one was addicted to drugs, there’s nothing more you want than being able to see these scumbags getting their second circumcision slowly with a blunt silet and sprinkled with salt after or a death sentence. So no, we don’t need them to kill others indirectly. What makes you think they dont force anyone? They have and pay (sometimes with drugs too not just money) people persuading others to get and use drugs. They start with free offers and once you’re hooked you’re f****d. It may not be a physical force but they definitely use psychological force which can be more damaging. Gees, this brings back bad memory, I wonder if my ex is still alive. Last time I saw him he was shooting up heroin on his arms. Creepy.

  24. avatar 1ndra says:

    Plus the hardest part if they are your friend. It’s hard to resist if you’re seduced by your friends.

  25. avatar Fanglong says:

    I’m sorry, Ihaknt, for these bad memories, and for your ex, because addict or not, deputy or not, all those who suffer deserve our compassion, or at least our sympathy. Drugs are a very difficult (and interesting) subject. But weren’t we talking about hukuman mati: this is a real bad drug, giving death and calling it justice: what an awfully bad trip!

  26. avatar Dimp says:

    Hi fanglong,

    But weren’t we talking about hukuman mati : this is a real bad drug, giving death and calling it justice : what an awfully bad trip !

    Again it need to be reviewed case by case, I think when one’s crime is beyond one’s imagination and comprehension (eg. Bali bombers), then capital punishment may be appropriate.

  27. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Fanglong, I am quite happy if I can torture the drug dealers/traffickers by means that I mentioned above if you are opposed to death penalty. Drugs are more of a global problem so, I agree with Dimp that it needs to be reviewed case by case. But drugs are bad okay, and I don’t like wasting my tax money to rehab some f***wits who has destroyed many lives and family AND no guarantee they will go back to the right ‘path’.

  28. avatar Dimp says:

    I remembered when a teenager that for no apparent reason smashed a car window causing blindness to the driver, the judge punished the teenager to be blindfolded for a couple of years in prisons.

    Another think that need to be mentioned is that once you have committed three crimes, regardless how petty they are, I think you can get life in prison under the US law (CMIIW).

    I think we need to make these criminals learn their lessons, in Australia, it is shows how the gang rapists (the Skaf brothers) seem to enjoy their moments in prison, they seem to be proud to be convicted and shown no remorse for their crimes, I think we need to be more severe on our punishments against these “animals”.

  29. avatar Fanglong says:

    Hi Dimp! Yes, but the Bali bombers are still alive (their death could have had some meaning) —

    Hi Ihaknt! I think torture is neither the solution. But I totally agree that the situation is often desperate with some beastlike men. Yes, but the lawyer, the corrector, the doctor must be more generous, refined, clever, intelligent than the criminal (who has always a kind of “excuse”). Any kind of anger, revenge, sadistic pleasure will never help anything; it’s just going on with violence, tiring and blinding. But so many bad examples all around.

  30. avatar Mat Malaya says:

    Salam everyone..

    I’m back again after a long long holiday. Misappropriation of drugs will never do any good. Drug was invented for good purpose but then being misused by some idiot.

    Drug trafficking = death penalty because misused of drugs= death. What happened to Elvis Presley? Whitney Houston? Kirk Cobain?

    To me, apart from punishing the traffickers, the capital punishment is to DETER others from doing the same.

    But, what is the definition of drug dealer/trafficker? Who is categorised as a drug dealer?

    Based on the Malaysian experience, drug trafficker is defined when you are in possession of more than 1 kilogram of any kind of drugs and the punishment is death. For the lesser amount/weight of drug, the punishment will be lesser, and normally they will be prisoned and whipping. If you are in possession of a tube of morphin or marijuana, you are categorised as a drug addict and will be send to a rehabilitation centre.

    To convict a drug dealer is not easy.All the technical aspects must be meet before the judge hang u. But if u miss the hanging rope, the prison and whipping is immediately waiting for u.

    We should not be lenient to those drugs dealers.Let them be punished for their evil deed.

    Thanks.

Comment on “Capital Punishment”.

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