Yusuf Lakaseng

Jan 18th, 2007, in News, by

PBR leader Yusuf Lakaseng has been reported to the police for blasphemy against Islam by Zaenal Ma'arif.

Zaenal Ma'arif, the one of the chairman of the Indonesian parliament, was expelled from the Partai Bintang Reformasi (PBR) on 8th January 2007 due to the fact that he had, in late December 2006, took a second wife and thereby become polygamous (see Zaenal Maarif). The expulsion of Zaenal from the Partai Bintang Reformasi was likely based on two factors: fear in the party that his very public polygamy would lose the PBR female votes at the next election, and, Zaenal's enemies using the matter as an excuse to get rid of him and advance themselves.

Whatever the case the matter looks likely to become a protracted dispute, being fought out in the courts, and on the floor of the parliament (PBR members recently walked out in protest as Zaenal chaired a session of parliament).

On the 17th Zaenal, in company with representatives of a few small Islamic organisations, such as the ewan Dakwah Islamiyah Indonesia and Hizbullah, visited the central Jakarta police station to report the deputy secretary general of the PBR, Yusuf Lakaseng, as having committed blasphemy against Islam, by his opposition to Zaenal having taken another wife.

Zaenal says that Yusuf plans to dismiss all PBR officials across the country who are polygamous and that this move is insulting to Muslims, the Quran, and Islam, given that polygamy is a legitimate practice within religion.

Yusuf Lakaseng was formerly a leader of the left-wing Partai Rakyat Demokratik (PRD) and Zaenal also worries that he is bent on making the PBR a socialist Islamic party rather than just an Islamic one. vhr

Previously at the State Courthouse of South Jakarta, Bursah Zarnubi, another senior PBR leader, was also reported to the police over the same matter by representatives of some Muslim groups, but Zaenal denies being behind this. detik


139 Comments on “Yusuf Lakaseng”

  1. avatar Grace and Mercy says:

    I may be out of line here because the question was addressed to sgn, Ismail and magy (who’s magy?)

    For one thing, this Khadijah Watson nee: Mary Sue Malvar could be anybody. She claims to be a scholar, but in her argument she does not cite anything as the basis of her argument, which is highly unlikely for a person with her claimed intellectual pedigree (she claimed to hold M.Div, Dipl. Min, BS in Theology degrees)

    As for her argument:

    Ah, but Genesis 3 and Ezekiel 18 does not contradict one another.

    In Genesis 3, because of Adam & Eve fell into sin, the whole of humanity which are offsprings of Adam and Eve has a sinful nature. The concept of Original Sin does not mean we are being punished for what Adam & Eve did in the garden of Eden.

    Ezekiel 18 talks about a person who will be responsible for his/her own actions. A person will be made righteous if he/she will leave from their evil way. But how can a person leave their evil way perfectly? The answer is they can’t, not by works and deeds.

    So how does a person leave their evil ways? By accepting the forgiveness from God. That is why in the Old Testament David said in his Psalms (Psalm 32) “Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.Blessed is the man whose sine the LORD does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit”

    David and all the OT patriarch looked to what Jesus will do on the cross, something that took place in their future. I and the rest of my Christian brothers and sisters look to what Jesus did on the cross. Something that happened in the past for me.

    There is a lot of in-fighting and theological differences between denominations.

    Yes, and this is to the fault of Christians the humans, when we hold on to our flesh (sinful nature) and my answer to this is, I apologize that these people including myself have not been a good witness to the good news of Jesus Christ.

    Protestants do not recognize Catholics as even being Christian because they worship Mary, the mother of Jesus [peace be upon him] along with various saints.

    That’s totally untrue. What would be the source for her to claim this?

    Baptists do not have “fellowship” with non-Baptists.

    I agree that communications between denominations have not always been prefect. We do tend to forget about the underlining principle of our faith:

    WWJD = What would Jesus Do
    WWJS = What Would Jesus Say

    That is a prove that a person lacks the ability to be righteous on their own. Only by the power of the Spirit can a person. That’s why we have what we called ecumenical fellowship amongst Christians.

    In addition, there are Methodist, Wesleyan, Presbyterian, Congregational, Pentecostal churches and a thousand independent churches that do not belong to any denomination. They all differ on points of doctrine or interpretation of the Bible.

    We may differ on some things we read on the Bible, but hey, God loves variety. He made all of us different. HOWEVER, we are all in accord about one underlining principle.

    Jesus is the only way to God.
    Jesus in the only way to forgiveness of sin
    Jesus is crucifed. Died, and descended into the place of the dead.
    and here’s the best part:

    In three days, rose again from the dead and was ascended to heaven. (Something that no one has ever claimed).

    By being raised from the dead, death has no power over Him, that’s why he’s able to offer eternal life for all who believe him.

    I felt that if what we were teaching were genuine

    Maybe she was hurt by a Christian, a pastor, a church etc that hurt her and if I meet her, I would apologize to her on their behalf. I would also say to her that Jesus loves her very much and desires for her and everyone else not to perish.

    There should be an apparent change in society around us. Instead, society is in a decline and in worse condition than it was even 50 years ago!

    It is already written in the Bible that she claimed to read every year for 12 years, that the world will become worse and worse.

    Jesus said this in Matthew, Mark and Luke. I give you the linke to Luke 21:9-26 in particular http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2021:9-26&version=31

    However this doesn’t come without a promise, because Jesus said in vers 27-28
    At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

    REDEMPTION IS DRAWING NEAR. WOW!

    At that time, the fulfillment of what I have been waiting for eversince I received Jesus as my savior, and was given a rebirth, will come to pass.

    Dear sir, I know that my redeemer lives. Jesus lives! I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

    Lastly sir, this offer is also open to anybody who would receive the sacrificial work he has done on the cross which is the atonement of sin for all. Ticket to eternal life is already been issued. It’s up to us to want to receive that ticket. I did, would you?

    God bless you!

  2. avatar Ismail says:

    Cukurungan, before I became a Christian the same questions bothered me and I had too many thing I had no answer to, I had a lot of islamic books you see! But when I understood the gospel message, I felt renewed, I knew I had a new begining but the stuff I did not understand were still there but I trust God will help me throught it. Because I had the islamic mindset. I knew christ was real because of the liberty I feel and he healed my bad kidney.

    please read Galatians 5:.. I could not but love his word after that.

    Soon after it all began to make sense, and I have answers to just about most of mine concerns, I still have a few things I need to know but I am getting there, bible says “its from glory to glory” and I am understanding God better and loving him more and more.

    Khadija Watson, is just like me in a way, she had too many questions, which is legitimate and acceptable in Christianity, but she was already leaning out and having Muslims version seem to make sense to her then, I bet she did not know that islam has about 74 different sects, that believe remarkable different things, and they have been at odds. She should have sat in God’s “presence” and in prayer, shut out the world and desire to know, Jesus said, “he that hunger and thirst for rightiouness will be fill”.

    If you care to discuss each of the Christian principle, please I will be more than willing to engage.

    Finally denomination in Christianity, is in so many ways a product of mindset, race and times, but ususlly with the same fundamental believes. Yes we have sect on the fringe of Christianity because everything as counterfeit, even counterfeit too has counterfeit.

    Thanks.

  3. avatar sgn says:

    Ismail Says:
    January 22nd, 2007 at 5:32 pm

    … and I have answers to just about most of mine concerns, I still have a few things I need to know but I am getting there, bible says “its from glory to glory” and I am understanding God better and loving him more and more.

    Ismail, good answer/comment.
    Yes, i believe you (and me) are getting there.

    /sgn

  4. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Hi Grace and Mercy,

    You said:

    Injeel and the Gospel is the same thing. The word Injeel in Greek is the word evangel which is translated to English (Old English I should say) God-spell which in a modern English is the Gospel.

    From my understanding and study, Jesus was called “The Word” He brought an Oral Message from God, which he preached. The Gospels as such were written much later, after his death, and rely on the memory of the writers and or oral transmission, the writers being human could have made mistakes, and they could with all the best intentions have even added things.

    The earliest writings are of Mark, who wrote his version in 70 A.D., followed by Mathew 80 A.D., Luke 90 A.D, and John 90 A.D. Johns version being ammended and added to over the following years.( there is some dispute over the exact dates, but not the order, I have given the earliest dates quoted)

    Mark, Mathew, and Luke are called the Synotic Gospels as they appear to share a great deal of information. Mark’s Gospel has 661 Verses, Mathew’s has 1068 of which 500 are based on Mark, Mathew has 51% of Mark’s actual words. Luke has 1,149 verses. 320 based on Mark, Luke has 53% of Mark’s actual words.

    However; John’s Gospel did not use material from any of the synoptic authors.

    Mark says Christ was a man
    Matthew says Christ was a demigod
    Luke says Christ was a demigod
    John insists that Christ was God himself

    Not only that but there are other differences in the way that Jesus is portrayed in the Synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of John:

    Synoptic Gospels:
    Jesus teaches in pArables.
    Jesus performs exorcisms.
    Jesus associates with outcasts.
    Jesus has little to say about himself.

    Johns Gospel:
    Jesus does not teach in pArables.
    Jesus does not perform exorcisms.
    Jesus does not associate with outcasts.
    Jesus constantly talks about himself, his relation with the father and his mission.

    Even the basis for Personal Salvation is different:

    Synoptic:
    Good works, helping the poor, sick, imprisoned, and needy.

    John:
    Belief in Jesus as the Son of God.

    If you want to read more about this issue, please look at Religious Tolerance.

    Peace

  5. avatar Peter says:

    Tell me what inconsistencies are they? The whole bible is summed up in what I just say in my last post, about a redemptive work of God from the beginning of creation, epitomize by Jesus Christ.

    Grace and Mercy,

    For one thing there are the two opposing quotes where Jesus says on one hand that he has not come to destroy but to fulfill, and then in another place he says that he has not come to fulfill but to turn sons against fathers, etc. and so forth.

    You have missed my point. We should not be taking these books so literally! They serve as guiding examples and helpful metaphors to help us through our spiritual journey. We should not be arguing about insignificant sentences and fragments here and there.

    ———

    If we really take our spirituality seriously then we must think deeply about our scriptures. Thinking deeply requires us to probe and question things – not just memorize them because somebody (even God) said so. If God wanted us to become non-thinking robots who memorize books and claim to be religious, He/She would have just forced us into religion. Instead he gave us a rational mind with which to examine all His/Her miracles and choose our own paths.

    Was I alive and witness to Muhammad’s recitation of the Quran? No. Nor was I there during the life of Jesus or Moses. Is it possible that certain distortions have arisen throughout the hundreds of years since the scriptures were written? Certainly. I would never discount human error. Even if a simple phrase is whispered from person to person in a circle, by the end, the last person will hear a completely different phrase than what the first person said. Now imagine this process on a much larger scale. People can be “trustworthy”, but not without honest mistakes.

    Why is it impossible to have rational debate about these things?

    Why can we not listen to each other’s view, and reply: “Wow, that’s very interesting; I never thought about it like that. I see it more like this…”

    Instead we condemn and slander each other and each other’s religions because we are too insecure in our faith to have an honest conversation about such things. This is shameful.

    Peace.

  6. avatar Julita says:

    Grace and Mercy, I saw your comment but was wrapped up before I got the chance to reply. We are on our journey and we learn from each other. In fact there was something interesting you wrote and I wanted to add to it. ‘I am the way”¦”¦ nobody cannot come to the Father”¦”¦”¦”¦.” because many people get confused about this.
    The following is my opinion so no hard feelings.
    1. We’re getting a bit sidetracked. The point is the Quran sanctions having more than one wife and that it is for the benefit of the woman as well. After I married my Pembantu, for example, my first wife and I were able to cut down on her salary, thus saving costs. So it’s practical as well as halal.
    Marrying a pembantu is not something new, according to the Qur’an you should do it for charity but it is the opposite you cut down her salary.
    Again polygamy. Where is self-mastery which is very important in every aspect of life for men as well as women. For instance we want so much our neighbour’s coupe Mercedes for sure all the heads will turn when we drive by, but we have a family so we need an SUV what we do ? Let the children go by beca? We should not have all the things iwe want. So self-mastery is a virtue. The more difficult the challenge , the more we have to fight this biggest enemy “ourselves” the more graces we get and the stronger we become. Oh, what a beautiful sample, education men can make for their sons.
    I believe even if it is for charity or any good deeds, when it hurt your family, your wife or your children in fact anybody, I believe strongly that Allah won’t bless that union. Love, charity should start in the family.

  7. avatar Cukurungan says:

    SGN, Ismail, Mercy (sorry mot Magy),

    Can we conclude your answer to my question as below?

    1) It was no wrong part about the socking truth
    2) However only way to Heaven (Eternal Life) is received the Jesus sacrificial work.
    3) The reason behind Khadija Watson converted to Islam because she wanted to revenge against the Christian Institution where probably she was being sexually abused there.

    Here further my question:

    1) How does work of the Jesus sacrificial work (JSW) to one who received it?
    Are all sins before and after they received JSW will be forgiven and how can it be?

    2) Is Jesus God himself or He is son of God?

    3) How about fate of the one who reject JSW?

    4) Is there any consistent message in Bible that Bible was send to all mankind and not only for the Jew?

    5) Is there any clear message in the bible that there will be no more a God messenger after JSW took place?

    6) Is there any clear message in Bible that God will never send again a Holy Book to a Mankind after JSW took place?

    7) Who is Satan or Evil and what his crime and why God curse him?

    provokator no.1

  8. avatar Grace and Mercy says:

    Hi guys, I’m on leave today and its hard to give a long answer from a Blackberry.

    Hang on tight, I’ll address those questions individually with respect. I believe I haven’t been condemning anyone for their stance (Peter).

    I have only been presenting ideas from a Christian point of view. I can’t present an idea of Christianity from a religious tolerance point of view MK.

    Cukurungan, again I will adress your questions individually, and yes from a Biblical Christian point of view.

    Grace of God be with all of you.

  9. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Peter Says:

    This being said, the basic tenets of Islam are great, and we would all do well to follow them (no matter which name we call God by). But, as the saying goes: “The devil is in the details.”
    I believe it is more important to follow the spirit of Islam than the letter. And if the letter contradicts the spirit, the letter must go.

    We as main stream Moslem fully belief with so called circular rule as below:

    1) Quran is fully edited by God Himself and the truth of contains is absolute not depends on the times.
    2) Current Bible is a twisted Jesus teaching by previous Priest who was acting as God liaison officer and took advantage for satisfying their desire.
    3) If you do not agree, please check again rule number 1 and 2. hi hi hi

    Reffering to the rules , If any word found in Quran wrong and letter must go, all the basis Moslem tenets will be fall and died.

    We fully aware that most controversial islamic teaching is called out for JIHAD and you cited “the devil is in details” as clearly mentioned in at-taubah but we as the main stream Moslem are fully believe that the best way to interpret quran included those details were trough how our beloved prophet was practicing in reality of His daily live via Hadist Soheh. Did our prophet killed the kafir in daily basis? Did sahaba always killing Jews and Christian in daily basis? What I read in the hadist is not said so. Of course, there is no question that in those historic time, there were killing Jews, kafir and Christian by sahaba but so far I know most of them were occurred with apparent reason what so called self defense. Of course the word of self defense will be subject for a debatable. As you know according Olmert and Bush “self defense” could be in the format of carpets booming of the baby’s, children and woman because from those women and baby’s once day could be born a Teroris might endanger US agenda hi hi hi.

    Might you wanted to ask me which better a living kafir or a death kafir? For me as main stream Moslem believe that the living kafir is much better than the death kafir because the living one might someday receive hidayah and becomes MOSLEM so we safe a human being from agony hell fire.

    Regards,
    provokator no.1

  10. avatar sgn says:

    Cukurungan Says:

    January 23rd, 2007 at 9:04 am
    SGN, Ismail, Mercy (sorry mot Magy),

    Can we conclude your answer to my question as below?

    1) It was no wrong part about the socking truth

    I am afraid you misinterpreted the answers.
    – When I said I not look at the mistake it does not mean there is no mistake/wrong.
    – The article says: “..the doctrine of Original Sin from Genesis 3 but it is contradicted in Ezekiel 18:1-22”. Mercy said: “Genesis 3 and Ezekiel 18 does not contradict one another”

    2) However only way to Heaven (Eternal Life) is received the Jesus sacrificial work.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    Joh 14:6 Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    What would be your interpretation on the above?

    3) The reason behind Khadija Watson converted to Islam because she wanted to revenge against the Christian Institution where probably she was being sexually abused there.

    Well, we did not say that.

    What I found she commented her country and her nation (if she is true an American) was not appropriate.

    Here further my question:

    1) How does work of the Jesus sacrificial work (JSW) to one who received it?
    Are all sins before and after they received JSW will be forgiven and how can it be?

    God says that the person who sins must die (be punished). The wages of sin is death.

    Ezekiel 18:4, “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.”

    Rom. 6:23, “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

    Again…

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    The very important is Jesus save us from the death. He restored the relationship between God and us (who believe in this God’s free gift). Our sins are forgiven. Is that including our future sins? Yes and no. Let me give an example the relationship between parents and child(ren). As a child we suppose to listen to parents. There are many cases, we make our parents sad or even angry because we don’t listen or act as what parents want. But when we come to our parent for a forgiveness, our parent will forgive us for sure. Why? Because parents love us. The relationship between God and us is like father and son.

    However, there is a “sin” that cannot be forgiven, i.e. when we keep rejecting God.

    2) Is Jesus God himself or He is son of God?

    Yes, Jesus is God.
    The “son of God” is not referring to a biological relation between Jesus and God (the Father). Just a simple example, when we are called as “Anak Indonesia”, it does not meen Indonesia is our father/mother. The “Son of God” is a title of Jesus. Another Jesus’s titles are the “son of man”, the “shepherd”, the “saviour”, the “King of kings”, etc.

    3) How about fate of the one who reject JSW?

    I would prefer to discuss about who believes in Jesus 😉

    4) Is there any consistent message in Bible that Bible was send to all mankind and not only for the Jew?

    Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard this he said to them, “Those who are healthy don’t need a physician, but those who are sick do. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
    Luk 5:32 I have not come 1 to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” 2

    Sinners are not necessarily Jews.

    Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the farthest parts 1 of the earth.”

    … And I am not Jew, yet Jesus lives in me.

    5) Is there any clear message in the bible that there will be no more a God messenger after JSW took place?

    Joh 14:6 Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

    6) Is there any clear message in Bible that God will never send again a Holy Book to a Mankind after JSW took place?

    I am sorry, I don’t get your question. God did not send any holy book, He sent Jesus. God did not dictate the authors when writting the Bible, instead the authors of Bible were inspired and guided by God.

    7) Who is Satan or Evil and what his crime and why God curse him?

    Tough question.

    Satan is the one who opposes God. Satan, is the most powerful of the fallen angels. The motive for Satan’s rebellion may very well be found in the following verses.

    Isaiah 14:12-14: “How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! 13″But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 14’I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'”.

    In my understanding, there is a little verses telling us about the “Satan” or “Evil”, but there are a lot about Satan/Evil keeps trying to destroy our relationship with God.

    Oh… this is my longest posting.

    God bless you, and my the Holy Spirit helps you and me on this topic discussion.

    sgn

  11. avatar sgn says:

    Mohammed Khafi Says:
    January 22nd, 2007 at 8:32 pm

    Mark says Christ was a man
    Matthew says Christ was a demigod
    Luke says Christ was a demigod
    John insists that Christ was God himself

    Dear M. Khafi,
    it is obvious, you read a lot book/reference regarding the Bible.
    But just curious, have you read the Bible by your own. I know, it is not easy. If you spend 2 hours a day you will need 1 year to complete. However, if you are really seeking the truth, you can do it.

    After you have read by your own, then you will have your own statement what Jesus is, and whether the Bible was really been corrupted.

    I did it before. When my Moslem friend talked about “Barnabas Gospel” and he said he has it, I borrowed it from him. I read it from the very first page to the end, then after that I could give my comment on it.

    God bless you.
    sgn

  12. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Sgn, Grace and Mercy,

    This has been a most enlightening thread, thank you both for your views. It seems strange to me that the one Abrahamic religion which is most reviled in the West is the only one whose Scripture, Al Quran, teaches religious inclusivism* the chance for all who believe in God, do good deeds and believe in the day of judgment to aspire to a place in heaven. I for one could not believe any scriptures as being God given if they support such an exclusionist view, they do not fit with my ideas of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God. I do not know if these tenents in your religion are from the divinely inspired parts of your scriptures or from the manmade parts, but to be honest with you, from the fact that they are so exclusionist doesn’t it make you question if they are actually from God?

    *(please note I am not saying that its mainstream followers actually follow these teachings)

    Peace

  13. avatar sgn says:

    Dear M. Khafi,

    I, myself, was in your current thinking before.
    I was not a bad kid/guy, so by right I should not reject the concept of “do good deeds and believe in the day of judgment to aspire to a place in heaven”.

    I read the Bible since I was 11 years old (fortunately, my parents did not object). I converted when I was 20 years old.

    Of course, I am doing “good deeds”. But, my good deeds are not because I am aiming a place in heaven. I am doing “good deeds” because I know God loves me.

    Good bless you on seeking the truth.

    sgn.

  14. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    sgn,

    Yes I have read the whole of the Bible, but that was many years ago, I was not aware at that time of the many differences in the Gospels. As you are no doubt aware I am a nonconformist Muslim, I reject Sunnah and Hadith, because I find many contradictions in them and find that they are also contradictory to the nature of Al Quran and they try and disgrace Prophet Mohammed.

    Because of the nature of Mainstream Islam, it is not normal to question any of it, some who have done so have suffered greatly for it. You are in a lucky position because a significant amount of research has been carried out in researching biblical history and the history of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. I am interested in this research as Al Quran requires me to accept what Allah calls His previous revelations, but he has said that changes have happened in those Scriptures, the research together with comparisons of the different Scriptures allows a clearer view for me of what is the correct inference to take from the earlier scriptures. However I could no more believe that Jesus is the only way to God, or that Jesus actually was God, any more than I could believe that accepting the Messengership of Prophet Mohammed in my Shahada was.

    As to the Nature of Jesus, I believe his nature was more clearly seen in the Synoptic Gospels, given that those three gospels agree so closely as to his character, for me the Gospel of John is an attempt to deify Jesus and has been included by the early church for just that purpose.

    Peace

  15. avatar sgn says:

    Dear M. Khafi,

    You made me awake until this hour. It is indeed a nice discussion.

    You wrote:

    I was not aware at that time of the many differences in the Gospels.

    As what other Christian friends wrote in this forum, it is not correct if you are referring “Gospels” to only the 4 books in the Bible.

    Because of the nature of Mainstream Islam, it is not normal to question any of it, some who have done so have suffered greatly for it. You are in a lucky position because a significant amount of research has been carried out in researching biblical history and the history of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. I am interested in this research as Al Quran requires me to accept what Allah calls His previous revelations, but he has said that changes have happened in those Scriptures, the research together with comparisons of the different Scriptures allows a clearer view for me of what is the correct inference to take from the earlier scriptures.

    Yes, I am lucky. I am free to read any books and to read any article in the internet.

    It is not my believe that Bible was dictated by God (I don’t even know what language God speaks). The Bible was written by about 40 authors from many level and position of people and across about 1500 years.

    What kind did your Al Quran say about the changes? Content? Grammar? From handwritting to electronics? And I am sorry to question you, how did you believe that Al Qur’an was God’s words?

    …for me the Gospel of John is an attempt to deify Jesus and has been included by the early church for just that purpose

    Well, if only John insisted that Jesus is God. How stupid (sorry to use this word) were the early church leaders, they should insert at least three other “gospels” to support this “concept”.

    God bless you.
    sgn

  16. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Dear SGN,

    Thanks for your explanation.

    Let say I accepted your offer to receive JSW in my heart but on other hand I want to satisfy my desire to rape my neighbors chinese lady. In this case, Is God will forgive me. If this is the case, it might be good solution for my strong desire.

    Because with my current belief, I have not even dared to imagine the said conduct caused our beloved prophet said. It is big sins for zina but it will even worst if it is commited against your neighbors.

    PROVOKATOR NO.1
    WH

  17. avatar Ali says:

    God will forgive you for the worst thing imaginable, the question is whether or not you have enough time to repent and ask for forgiveness before He calls you.

    hi hi hi hi…

  18. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Just because God is forgiving, that doesnt make us human free to commit sins or do bad things on purpose and with concious intention. The attitude of “God will forgive me anyway” is wrong. It’s abusing His greatest attribute. Unfortunately, this behaviour seems to be what is common these days.

  19. avatar Joy says:

    Dear Cukurungan,

    When you really receive Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord, you are a new creation!

    ====you said :

    Thanks for your explanation,
    Let say I accepted your offer to receive JSW in my heart but on other hand I want to satisfy my desire to rape my neighbors chinese lady. In this case, Is God will forgive me. If this is the case, it might be good solution for my strong desire.

    ===============

    ABC’s of becoming a Christian
    ====================
    A. Admit to God that you are a sinner. Repent and turn away from your sin.
    B. Believe that Jesus Christ is God’s Son and accept God’s gift of forgiveness from sin.
    C. Confess your faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

    You are in my prayer.

  20. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Ali,

    The logic you presented is applicable only for my current belief, because if I accepted JSW, whatever my conduct is, it will be forgiven by GOD. hi hi hi hi

    As mentioned by SGN whoever accept JSW, their sin in the past and future will be forgiven so why I must bother ask GOD forgiveness, it is not required anymore”¦.hi hi hi”¦ it seemed live is too easy.

    Might this reason is explain itself why in Vatican holy city is become among the highest crime rate in the word and even US rape case is ranked no.1.

    Provokator. No.1

  21. avatar Ali says:

    I have to disagree with SGN — accepting Jesus is not a “blanket” forgiveness for something you have not done. But whatever you have done will be forgiven if you sincerely repent and ask for his mercy, as simple as that… hi hi hi

  22. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Ihaknt,

    If there are 20% of the leaders of my beloved country (I said so because I think you are too ashamed to be an Indonesian anymore), having attitude as your might this country can be a better place to live for Indonesian people.

  23. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Cuk, what? I dont understand what you are saying.

    How did my comment get associated that I was ashamed to be an Indo? Weird logic.

  24. avatar Dimp says:

    Cuk,

    Might this reason is explain itself why in Vatican holy city is become among the highest crime rate in the word and even US rape case is ranked no.1.

    Can you please give a credible source for you telling Vatican has the highest crime rate. Also the rape case in the US has been explained by Ihaknt very well. If you don’t understand English and logical reasoning then you should not be arguing with people who do.

  25. avatar Miss Indo 07 says:

    “Yes there is some rape case happened on our miserable sister of TKW but if we put all blame on hand of Saudi, it is not quite right either because Saudi was not pointing Gun to force us for sending TKW there.”

    –> by Cuk

    “Thanks for your explanation,
    Let say I accepted your offer to receive JSW in my heart but in otherhand I want to satisfy my desire to rape my neighbors chinese lady. In this case, Is God will forgive me. If this is the case, it might be good solution for my strong desire hi hi hi”

    –> also by Cuk

    *sigh*
    Is that all you have inside your head Cuk?

  26. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Dear Dimp,

    Here news release from Taliban New Agency:

    Newly released figures show that the Vatican’s justice department dealt with 827 civil and criminal cases during 2006, resulting in the tiny papal state having the world’s worst per capita crime statistics, a German magazine says.

    ……………. http://www.cathnews.com/news/701/120.php

  27. avatar Hassan says:

    Dimp:

    “Also the rape case in the US has been explained by Ihaknt very well”

    Yes, it is justifiable because the US had a transparent legal system while the other modern (western & non western) countries and the third world countries listed there don’t have that. Interesting logic.

    You can’t use the transparent legal system as an alibi for a high crime rate (and rape cases) in a country, Dimp. So IF Indonesia had a transparent legal system then we can justify the high corruption rate here, right? We can then say it’s because corruption in other countries weren’t reported/investigated properly. 😀

  28. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Miss Indo 07,

    Yes All you noticed is in my head
    if not I will call myself provokator no.1.

  29. avatar Grace and Mercy says:

    Hellooooo everyone! Wow, lively discussions here. I thank God that through a forum that discusses Yusuf Lakaseng and Zaenal Marif, me and my brothers are given a chance to talk about Christ.

    MK

    I commend you for your interest in the Christian faith, which is shown through your arguments that proves you are not just talking jibberish.

    We must however provide a basis for argument sake to be agreed upon.

    If a person wants to study about the Christian faith, then he/she study it from an “orthodox” view of Christianity. What I meant by “orthodox” is not The Eastern Orthodox Church, but a Bibilical point of view of the Christian faith.

    Just like if a person wants to study “orthodox” Islam and go to a Kyai who parctice kejawen, would probably not be taught “orthodox” Islam.

    After a close study of this “orthodox” tenet, then one can make a claim about what that tenet teaches because his/ her claim can be substantiated.

    One can decide for their own to accept or reject it. But the basic “orthodox” tenet remain the same.

    I hope you agree with me so far?

    Now having said that, what I am, and have been presenting to you is from that Biblical viewpoint – an “orthodox” view. I am a Christian, so how else would I present it other than?

    As for the Gospel is concern from a Biblical Christian viewpoint, there is only one GOSPEL, or INJEEL, or EVANGEL (I make it all caps to make it easy to differintiate when I discuss about Matthew, Mark, Luke and John’s books which in the Bible is grouped as “the gospels”).

    The GOSPEL (INJEEL, EVANGEL) is about one thing, and one thing only. The good news (GOSPEL) of Jesus Christ. (This I have already elaborated in length in my prevous post.) This GOSPEL is the very foundation of the Christian faith.

    Having said all that, let’s discuss some Biblical history:

    I again express my admiration for your knowledge of some of it’s history. You are right. In the Bible there are 4 accounts of the GOSPEL written by 4 different persons, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, (MMLJ) and yes MML are called the Synoptics.

    Yes you said correctly, there is a huge possibility that the other two Synoptics uses Mark as a source, but there are some who propose that all three of them uses one source termed by biblical scholars as “Quell” or “Q” for short. “Quell” being “Source” in greek.

    I would disagree on the dates of the writing, because my dates are a bit earlier than what you quoted.

    Mark around 55-65 AD
    Matthew around 60-65 AD
    Luke around 60 AD
    John around 80 AD.

    Our difference is not extremely important, but I would like to point out that Christ death and ressurection happened around 35-40 AD, so whichever year it is, we can agree that these “gospels” were written still within one generation after all theses things had happened. Some of the eyewitnesses of these events would still be alive at the time of the writing. If there are discrepancies then the other eyewitnesses can dispute the accuracy of what had happened. We can agree on this so far right?

    Just a sidetrack: Do you know that the history of ALexander the great was written 500 years after the guys died? After 500 years there are no more eyewitness living, yet the history of Alexander is claimedby the writers to be acurate.

    Now lets go back to discussing MMLJ from the Biblical viewpoint

    MMLJ are accounts of Jesus’ life, ministry, teachings, miracles, death on the cross, ressurection and accension to Heaven. These accounts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, are grouped in the Bible as “the gospels”. They gave accounts of the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ. They highlight different aspects of the GOSPEL, but they themselves do not contradict one another, on the contrary, they complement each other.

    Matthew whose writer was one of the 12, was written in the beginning, mostly for the Jewish audience who lived in the holy land and all over Asia Minor in “diaspora”. The main purpose of his “gospel” is to relate to the prophecies of the Old Testament that Jesus is the Messiah, the King of Kings that they have been waiting for. That’s why along with the pArables, Matthew quoted the Old Testament the most.

    Mark whose writer was a Roman and assistant to Peter, then Paul, was written particularly for the Christians who are Jews, Greek, or whatever descendance, but culturally Roman. The main purpose is to present the person, the work, teachings , death and ressurection of Christ.

    Luke as a doctor who was also an assistant to Paul, was written for a patron “named” Theophillus (one who love God), and to all theophillus of today. It’s purpose was to present the most accurate, detailed accounts of the life of Christ, and to present him as the perfect Savior.

    John was written also by one of the 12, was intended for Christians who do not necesarily have a Jewish background or was alive when all these took place. His intention is to present Jesus as the true and living God and savior.

    They NEVER claimed to be an autobiographical work of Christ, rather biographies providing “sketches” which in totality form the complete picture.

    All of them however, teaches salvation by the Grace of God through Jesus Christ. Whatever different things they highlight, they end up with one thing; the Death and Resurection of Christ. Now again, this is a “Biblical Christian point of view”.

    Another sidetrack: If they teach salvation by works, I would not be a Christian, because what its offering is not good enough, because my work will never be good enough. I would still be searching for my savior.

    As for the “Oral Traditions” that you claim are supposedly lost and replaced by “human accounts with innacuracy”:

    Paul, who was the main missionary of the Christian faith wrote letters to some of the early church. These letters, grouped as “the Pauline epistles” in the Bible was written a bit earlier than “the 4 gospels”. Maybe around 40-50 AD. In the letter addressed to the Galatians he commented about these so called “Oral Traditions” preached by preachers.

    He said in Gal 1:6-9

    I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel”” which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

    What is this Gospel of Christ which Paul said he so “eager to preach” Romans 1:15?

    Paul wrote to the Corinthians “we preach Christ crucified”.

    So in order for those Oral Traditions to be true it has to convey the true to the message of Jesus Christ have to preach “Christ crucified”. All other so called gospels are not gospels at all. That is the basic lithmus test if you will.

    The four “gospels” teaches exactly just that. It does not conflict with the genuine “Oral Traditions”. This is the genuine Biblical Christian Point of View. Whether you accept or reject is your choice, BUT like I said earlier, your choice does NOT change this point of view.

    So, back to our previous discussions when you said “The Christians were given the Injeel but follow the Gospels” is not a statement that can be substantiated from a Biblical Christian point of view.

    If you feel Muslims were given the Quran but many follow the Hadits, then that’s an Islamic internal issue that cannot be generalized to us Christians as doing the same.

    ________________________________________________

    Peter

    In your post that I quoted you said “And this is not to say that the same inconsistencies are not present in other books such as the Bible”

    I simply ask you to substantiate this because we cannot make a claim that is unsubstantiated. If we do then we are talking out of ignorance. I hope you agree with me.

    You said in your attempt to substantiate what you said earlier which I appreciate:

    For one thing there are the two opposing quotes where Jesus says on one hand that he has not come to destroy but to fulfill, and then in another place he says that he has not come to fulfill but to turn sons against fathers, etc. and so forth.

    Let’s quote those verses correctly, shall we?

    The first one is taken from Matthew 5:17 which says “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

    I don’t see a contradiction in them. I saw a misquotation in your part my dear friend.

    The second one is taken from Matthew 10:34-36 which says Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw””a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

    What’s the contradiction? He’s simply stating the cost of following Him. Back in those days, the new Christians were persecuted, sometimes by their own family. It still does today. I happen to have a connection to a safe house here in Jakarta that house new Christians who were previously of another faith. They were hit, stepped on, spit on, beaten by their own family because of their decision to follow Christ. Yet even though they are perseuted by their own family, all of them claim to have peace, the peace that God provides. He promises peace to those who follow him, but not the kind of “lets not rock the boat and say nothing for the sake of not offending others” kind of peace.

    You said

    You have missed my point. We should not be taking these books so literally! They serve as guiding examples and helpful metaphors to help us through our spiritual journey. We should not be arguing about insignificant sentences and fragments here and there.

    I haven’t missed your point. All I am asking is for you to substantiate your claim. And I do take my Bible literally. That’s why I am a Christian. They are the Word of the Living God. Not some metaphors. Life is a journey for me, but not a search. I found my savior and its because I am adamant about the significance of my faith.

    If we really take our spirituality seriously then we must think deeply about our scriptures.

    Yes, thinking deeply about our scriptures also requires us to have a deep knowledge of our scripture, so we won’t make any unsubstantiated claim.

    Why is it impossible to have rational debate about these things?

    Why can we not listen to each other’s view, and reply: “Wow, that’s very interesting; I never thought about it like that. I see it more like this”¦”

    Instead we condemn and slander each other and each other’s religions because we are too insecure in our faith to have an honest conversation about such things. This is shameful.

    Yes, why can’t we?? All I have ever done is present my idea which was based on the Biblical Christianity Point of View. Never have I condemn anyone. I don’t even talk about anyother faith other than mine, because I don’t have the authority to talk about it. I see that the idea of my faith seems to offend some people, and they try to slice and dice it from their own point of view.

    _____________________________________________

    Cukurungan

    My brother sgn have answered most if not all your questions so I won’t keep this post any longer than it already is

    Your Questions:

    5) Is there any clear message in the bible that there will be no more a God messenger after JSW took place?

    The New Testament in Acts2:17-18 confirm the prophecy given by the prophet Joel in the Old Testament that says “In the last days, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.”

    They won’t be like the Old Testament prophets, because God speaks to everyone now, but they can bring a specific Word from God to a person or a group of persons. That’s why in a church we Christians sometimes feel that the preacher is speaking directly to our situation even though he/she does not know a single clue of the situation we are facing.

    So yes, men and women who are believers, because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can be given the gifts of prophecy. As in Ephesians 4:11, it says “It was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers”

    A lithmus test of all who claimed to be prophets and bring the word of God is

    a. It has to be aligned with what the Word of God says. For example, someone claiming to be a prophet and tells you to steal does not speak a word from God because it is against his command to steal

    b. It has to point to Jesus. If it doesn’t point to Jesus as a whole, then we would reject it.

    6) Is there any clear message in Bible that God will never send again a Holy Book to a Mankind after JSW took place?

    sgn asnwered your question exeptionally here that God did not give us a “book”, but I just want to add one thing.

    Our Bible with the 66 books in the canon did not come about as a compiled book till about 200 AD. The Old Testament was there, called the Septuagin, but the New Testament, before that, they were separate manuscripts. Even the letters of John and Revelation were added to it later. So as for a “holy book” or holy writing, they were open to a “new” one – EXCEPT….

    It cannot conflict what the Old Testament has been teaching and what the basic underlining principle of the Teachings of Jesus.

    So when God’s original intention stated in the OT and confirmed in the NT was for a man and a woman to be married, both singular, monogamous, then comes a teaching that allows poligamy, then we would reject it as not being inspired by God’s Spirit.

    _____________________________________________

    Let me say again to all of you, I am writing from a Biblical Christian Point of View, and not from any other. If I offend you, I apologize. I only write about my faith. I have not, however, make a slander statement of another faith. Most of the knowledge I know of another faith was from what was written here.

    I do want to ask you though, since I don’t think it’s been discussed by other than those who are Christians:

    What does your faith teach about salvation? How could one attain salvation in your faith?

    God bless all of you.

    I apologize for the length of this post.

  30. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Cuk, please answer my previous question, I didnt understand what you meant. Thanks.

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