Yusuf Lakaseng

Jan 18th, 2007, in News, by

PBR leader Yusuf Lakaseng has been reported to the police for blasphemy against Islam by Zaenal Ma'arif.

Zaenal Ma'arif, the one of the chairman of the Indonesian parliament, was expelled from the Partai Bintang Reformasi (PBR) on 8th January 2007 due to the fact that he had, in late December 2006, took a second wife and thereby become polygamous (see Zaenal Maarif). The expulsion of Zaenal from the Partai Bintang Reformasi was likely based on two factors: fear in the party that his very public polygamy would lose the PBR female votes at the next election, and, Zaenal's enemies using the matter as an excuse to get rid of him and advance themselves.

Whatever the case the matter looks likely to become a protracted dispute, being fought out in the courts, and on the floor of the parliament (PBR members recently walked out in protest as Zaenal chaired a session of parliament).

On the 17th Zaenal, in company with representatives of a few small Islamic organisations, such as the ewan Dakwah Islamiyah Indonesia and Hizbullah, visited the central Jakarta police station to report the deputy secretary general of the PBR, Yusuf Lakaseng, as having committed blasphemy against Islam, by his opposition to Zaenal having taken another wife.

Zaenal says that Yusuf plans to dismiss all PBR officials across the country who are polygamous and that this move is insulting to Muslims, the Quran, and Islam, given that polygamy is a legitimate practice within religion.

Yusuf Lakaseng was formerly a leader of the left-wing Partai Rakyat Demokratik (PRD) and Zaenal also worries that he is bent on making the PBR a socialist Islamic party rather than just an Islamic one. vhr

Previously at the State Courthouse of South Jakarta, Bursah Zarnubi, another senior PBR leader, was also reported to the police over the same matter by representatives of some Muslim groups, but Zaenal denies being behind this. detik


139 Comments on “Yusuf Lakaseng”

  1. avatar Andrew says:

    Ihaknt is right on the money

  2. avatar Hassan says:

    It’s because over there, the victims report the incident and it is recorded. But in many of the mentioned countries, the victims become the party at fault when they report the incident. Or too scared to report it because the system doesnt support them and they are condemned.

    That is one of the most generic and cliche argument that i have ever heard in my previous experience on several forums and websites that I had visited. Perhaps the first part is true, “in the US the victims report the incident and it is recorded”. But the latter parts of the argument is biased and unconfirmed.

    Had there been any independent scientific research (press reports doesn’t count, offcourse) that proved that “in many of the mentioned countries, the victims become the party at fault when they report the incident”? I mean, for each and individual countries, or else we can be considered generalizing.

    Besides, just by looking at the list we can conclude something. The US tops the list with a staggering number of reports at 89,110. While the UK (8,593), France (8,458), Germany (7,499), Japan (2,260) and Australia (15,630). All the countries i mentioned had an excellent human rights track record and a good law enforcement system. But even if we add the number of citizens of individual countries into consideration, the rape per-capita in the US is still the highest of all.

    Well, some of us did say that we must stop blaming the US for bad things that had happened to us. Perhaps now the Americans must put the blame on themselves instead of hiding behind the transparency of their system, and they should realize that if compared to other ‘civilized’ and modern countries they scored very low on the subject of morality (as shown by the rape numbers).

    Perhaps they should put the blame on their decadent society rather than point the other way by saying, “hey, we are more transparent!”. I mean, rapes are rapes, no matter how transparent the system might be. We still must stop them and reduce the cases, don’t we?

  3. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Ihaknt Says:
    January 19th, 2007 at 1:50 pm

    Cuk,
    It’s because over there, the victims report the incident and it is recorded.

    As you know Indonesia is also ranking worst in term corruption related crimes so Indonesia birocrat can borrow your statement for an excuse why Indonesia ranked like that.

  4. avatar Andrew says:

    Hi Hassan,

    You refer to American society as decadent – but if you look closer you’ll actually find many positive things in their society, something that contradicts the general, negative perception. A few examples –

    – More people obey the law there than in Indonesia – e.g. simply look at how people drive and you’ll know what I mean.
    – I find the majority of Americans are warm, polite, caring, generous and helpful individuals. One would go a very ong way to help even even a stranger, something that I’ve experienced firsthand.
    – I also find that in general they are more honest, have much better integrity and ethics than our Indonesian brothers (but I didn’t say they did not have corruptors, swindlers and thieves.)
    – One gets what one deserves there – e.g. if you owe taxes, you simply pay the IRS. If the IRS owes you refund, they will send you a check.

    But yes, like everywhere else, you’ll meet bad people with all their problems (including sex offenders); but tell me a compArably large society that doesn’t have that. And yes, they do have more variations compared to our Asian society – e.g. on the street you will meet people who are very polite, but you will also run into people who are very rude – a much wider range than what we see in Indonesia.

    I don’t know if you’ve lived or been in the US, but having lived there for many years, I can tell that the negative perception is partial. People can point out both good and bad things in every society, but usually the one that stands out is the bad – which is what happens here. Whether or not the you like their social values is a completely different matter altogether.

    Now, on the topic of reported rape cases:
    (1) the statistical figures should be looked at as a percentage of the total population
    (2) do you actually believe that there are only 87 rape cases in Saudi Arabia’s 27 million population? Malaysia, which has about the same population size, reports a whopping 1,220 – that’s 13x more rapes for the same number of people.

    Does that mean Saudi Arabia’s law is 13x more effective than Malaysia’s? I don’t think so, because it’s like comparing apples to oranges.

  5. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Andrew Says:

    (2) do you actually believe that there are only 87 rape cases in Saudi Arabia’s 27 million population? Malaysia, which has about the same population size, reports a whopping 1,220 – that’s 13x more rapes for the same number of people.
    Does that mean Saudi Arabia’s law is 13x more effective than Malaysia’s? I don’t think so, because it’s like comparing apples to oranges.

    I think number of cases was based on Capita but I didn’t know what does with Capita. is it every millions or every sequare kilometer.

    But rationality behind rape case in Saudi and Malaysia is very simple. In Saudi an opportunity to rapes woman is vey rare because you couldn’t find any woman walk alone or go to certain place by herself ( under sharia woman is not allowed travel by herself without companions) . The most possible chances for a rape cases in Saudi is rape cases on TKW from Indonesia if it is recorded. However, in Malaysia that’s not the case because the raper can find easily the rape target as does happened in our beloved country. So no wonder rape record in our country is also not good either.

  6. avatar Andrew says:

    Thanks, Cukurungan. Your explanation makes sense, although I have a feeling that it may not be the whole story.

    Anyway, for the sake of argument let’s assume that it is the case, i.e. in Saudi the opportunity to rape woman is vey rare because you couldn’t find any woman walk alone or go to certain place by herself.

    But that actually tells us that the (low) rate of rape doesn’t necessarily give us a conclusive evidence that support the claim that people are morally good there – as implied by Hassan.

  7. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    The figures could have something to do with these as well:

    Under the so-called zina (fornication) law in Pakistan, extramarital sex is punishable by public whipping or even stoning to death.

    If a woman is raped, she runs a high risk of being charged with zina, particularly if she becomes pregnant. In order to prove an absence of consent, however, a woman is required to provide four witnesses to the rape, a near impossible task.

    The rest of the article is here Right to equal protection by the law.

    Or this:
    Some women workers that we interviewed were still traumatized from rape and sexual abuse at the hands of Saudi male employers,….. Living in forced confinement and extreme isolation made it difficult or impossible for these women to call for help, escape situations of exploitation and abuse, and seek legal redress.

    The rest of the article is here Exploitation and Abuse of Migrant Workers in Saudi Arabia.

    Or this:
    A Saudi court has sentenced a gang rape victim to 90 lashes of the whip because she was alone in a car with a man to whom she was not married.

    The rest of the article is here Saudi court sentences rape victim to 90 lashes.

  8. avatar sgn says:

    The statistic does not tell who were the rapers and who were the victims, does it?
    Rich person usually does not rape but buy women.

    In some countries there is no need to bring any witness for a rape case. The police will help the victim to find evidences.

    But in other countries to be able to report a rape case, the victim or the reporter must bring a witness, and even at least four witnesses

    I quoted here….
    In July 2002, the PAS-controlled Terengganu state assembly passed the Shari’a Criminal Offenses Bill (see Section 2.c.). The Government, led by the Minister of Women’s Affairs and Family Development, argued that the proposed law discriminates against women, especially in regard to rape cases. Under the new state law, conviction for rape would require four Muslim male eyewitnesses of good standing to testify if adequate physical evidence was lacking. Women and non-Muslims would be barred from testifying. ….

    In America, spousal rape is a crime. But not in many countries.

    I think that also explains about the statistics above.

    sgn

  9. avatar Ismail says:

    Hi Khafi, I guess I should be quiet, but I have to be sure you just quoted the bible on tolerance, can you also quote the al-Quran. Please also explain why mohammed and the Quran say you should not take Christians as your friends, that would be nice.

    Believe me when I say I weigh you words, because they seem genuine.

    Wow, the statistics on rape is quite interesting and sad, but stat don’t reflectly badly on the country as long the country rejects this madness and publish it, but it does reflect the number of dead-heads doing this things.

    Please note that rape in islamic countries is never reported because the lady needs to produce 4 Muslim men to corroburate her story, because her testimony can’t buy rag!! It’s therefore worse!!

    I have a different statistic in mind, it’s got to reflect not just number of dead heads but the countries fundamental ideology.

    Say, polygamy, wife-beating (even ligthly), under-age marriage and a host of other vices that are similar.

  10. avatar Ihaknt says:

    In Saudi an opportunity to rapes woman is vey rare because you couldn’t find any woman walk alone or go to certain place by herself ( under sharia woman is not allowed travel by herself without companions) . The most possible chances for a rape cases in Saudi is rape cases on TKW from Indonesia if it is recorded.

    Very rare? Based on what did you say this? Have you actually gone there and talked to the women yourself and done an extensive observation on these women or the culture in general? The Haj pilgrimage doesnt count. They are raped by their own family members and in most cases it’s swept under the carpet, as to not mar the family name. As for the TKW who were raped, they can report it to their embassy to seek assylum, but some are also tortured in the process. Again, in Arab, they are too scared to report the rape, citizen or not. As I said the system turns the table on the VICTIM. NOT the RAPIST. Do you think just because they cover themselves they don’t run the risk of being raped? Please read more about women studies Cukurungan. It may grow a bit of compassion in your heart. It is hard enough having to deal with such horrible experience and yet having to face that if it is reported you get all the blame. I am sure you are deep down a nice person who would feel for these women if you only knew what they have to face in such condition and circumstances. Thank you.

  11. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Dear Ismail bin Jakongsu :

    Hi hi. I love to meet you again here but I would like to reminded you that I am not a nice guy, I am also not Moslem KTP because I am who so called a Moslem hardline or fundamentalist.

    I already checked again qur’an and hadist and I found God order as you said not to make friend with kafir, kill kafir and destroy all kafir belonging.

    If so would you please do favor for me and explaning above all hatred islamic teaching to my neighbors Christian and to all chinese Christian live around the mosque where I always take pray. Don’t forget to tell them also if someday I and my Moslem brother will chopped -off their head. Hi hi hi hi

    If you are willing to do so and I hope it work hence all my neighbors chineses and Christian will fear and feel threatened so I can buy all houses belonging to them with cheap and my islamition target will succeed.

    I am waiting your reply and service fee is negotiable depends on your ability to confince those hatred islamic teaching to them but if not succeed I sugest you to hang your self. Hi hi hi, because “kasihan deh lu” no one is trusted on you.

    Regards,
    Provokator no.1

  12. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    My apologies to all, I realise that this is off topic, but I don’t want to let Ismail’s, predjudiced, narrow minded view poison the atmosphere some of us are trying to build.

    Ismail said:

    please also explain why mohammed and the Quran say you should not take Christians as your friends”¦.. that would be nice.

    For Muslims, God says:

    Do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? What should be the retribution for those among you who do this?..2:85

    Muslims have to look at the verses in context, and other related verses before they can make sense.

    Before we understand the verse which you are refering to it is important to understand the context of this Surah and the situation under which this verse was revealed.

    In the last stages of The Prophets mission in Medinah, Muslims had emerged as a dominant power and had set up a society of their own. At the same time, the polytheists of Makkah as well as Jews and Christians had also established communities and in case of an armed conflict, it seemed that any of them could have emerged as victorious. In such an environment the hypocrites amongst Muslims maintained ties with Jews and Christians and supported them in secret. Their support was in order to safeguard their interests with whoever the victorious party would be. In addition, the hypocrites obviously had not accepted Islam from within their hearts and their conversion to Islam had not affected their ties with Muslims’ opponents.

    It is in this context that Quran revealed the following verses specifically admonishing these hypocrites amongst Muslims:

    “O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends and protectors, they are friends of each other. And whoever makes them a friend then he is from amongst them. Verily God does not guide the unjust people. And you will see that those (Muslims) in whose hearts is a disease run towards them saying ‘We fear that a calamity may befall us.‘ So God will soon bring victory or a decision from Him, causing them regret on account of the thoughts they harbored in their hearts.” Quran 5:51-52

    Now, let’s look at some other verses about befriending the Jews and the Christians, or anyone not Muslim for that matter. These two verses are regulating relations with any people, regardless of faith:

    GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable. 60:8

    GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors. 60:9

    God is the only judge of who is a true believer or not:

    Among the followers of Moses there are those who guide in accordance with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous. 7:159

    Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous. 5:46

    The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD’s revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD’s revelations are the wicked. 5:47

    Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. 2:62 & 5:69

    They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture, there are those who are righteous. They recite GOD’s revelations through the night, and they fall prostrate. 3:113-114

    They believe in GOD and the Last Day, they advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and they hasten to do righteous works. These are the righteous.

    Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD’s revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning. 3:199

    I find many of my Christian friend’s here are tolerant and loving people who are genuinely interested in having harmonious relation with other faiths. They are open minded and willing to discuss their faith and mine, without trying to create bad feeling and mistrust.

    There may even be some amongst them, some who find the concept of Trinity impossible to accept as do I, or who wish to marry into another faith for instance and want to change their religion, but are put off by what people like you, and other paranoid people write here. I just want them to know that there are loving, caring, tolerant and intelligent people in Islam as well.

    Al Quran says:

    Invite (all humankind) to the path of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation and argue with them in the most kindly manner, for, indeed, your Lord knows best as to who strays from His path, and best who are the right-guided. 16:125

    Peace

  13. avatar Cukurungan says:

    Dear Khafi,

    Have nice try to convince the peaceful islamic teaching to Ismail but don’t be disappointed because Ismail only hear what he wanted to hear and see only what he wanted to see.

    Dear Ihaknt,

    Yes I already gone to Saudi and have no any chances for being in one room with Saudi woman or any lady. All ladies in streets and in mall always with their companions and even I have no chances to rape them just that simple.

    Yes there is some rape case happened on our miserable sister of TKW but if we put all blame on hand of Saudi, it is not quite right either because Saudi was not pointing Gun to force us for sending TKW there.

    Rape or other crimes is function of crime triangle. Crime or rape will not be occurred if crime triangle doesn’t exist. In TKW rape case, I think every one know that most Arabic Man has strong sexuality and our foolish to supply them with a sexuality target so when tkw was not there the crime triangle doesn’t exist but we make it the triangle exist by providing them the target crime.

    But friend of mine one day was on board with some TKW returned from Arabic Country and he heared exciting conversation amongs them how they were so enjoyed being sexualy abused by their handsome master.

    Dear Ismail,

    Could you please tell me why the crime rates in the vaticans holy city is amongs the highest in the world. Is it because Jesus so generous so that all crime committed by their follower will be forgived.

    Regards,
    provokator no.1

  14. avatar Ismail says:

    Khafi, please do realise that some Muslims will consider you narrow minded, but I guess it serves your purpose to call me narrow.

    Let’s look at your submission, I guess this one is a bit hard to dig out from and you have introduce context and history to a rather simple instruction. This is why islam is no more than gibberish, a hive of contradictions. then you went on to appeal to history, wow the same history you only get from the hadit, that you rightly rejected, talk about narrow mindedness. Muhammed did not give this instruction with an appeal to history or context.

    How many people in the islamic world would seat down and reason through this and come up with your version of view, when most of your imams dance arround the concept of death to infidels/kafir.

    One of the few times your post fell miserably in dealing with a text.

    Hello khafi, when you lay out the verses, some them don’t necessarily refer to Christians and Jews, most likely other Muslims please add and explain the following:

    At-Taubah:29(surah 9:29)
    Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    Al-Mâ’idah:14 (surah 5:14)
    And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them.[] So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allâh’s Book, disobeyed Allâh’s Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allâh’s disobedience), and Allâh will inform them of what they used to do.

    Yes in the islamic world, you can accept Christian and Jews but we must feel subdued. I hope people will read this and ask the hard questions and not focus on me.

    Please don’t refer to the Quranic verse on the gospel anymore, the same Gospel that your prophet twist and misrepresented and then rejected. Please don’t go there.

    There are lot people, who are wonderful people and they are atheist, same in islam (no credit to islam). But that does not validate the ideology. Sir your argument is weak and your presentation just makes it clearer and worse.

    Cukurungan, wow you never cease to amaze me, please just don’t go to the mad-rassa.

  15. avatar Hassan says:

    Next!

    🙂

  16. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Ismail,

    Please don’t forget that we are working here with an English translation, and all translations are bound to be in some way coloured with the interpretation of their understandings:

    Here is another translation of the same verse which is much more appropriate I think:

    “You shall fight (back) against those who do not believe in God, nor in the last day, and they do not prohibit what God and His messenger have prohibited, and do not abide by the system of truth among those who received the scripture, until they pay the REPERATION, in humility.” (9:29).

    COMMENTARY ON 9:29

    You will have noticed that a parenthesis has been inserted since the context of the verse is about the War of Hunain, and fighting is allowed for only self defense. See: 2:190-193, 256; 4:91; and 60:8-9.

    Furthermore, note REPERATION is suggested instead of Arabic word Jizya. The meaning of Jizya has been distorted as tax on non-Muslims, which was invented long after Muhammad to further the imperialistic agenda of Kings. The origin of the word that was translated as Compensation is JaZaYa, which simply means compensation or in the context of war it means war reparations, not tax. Since the enemies of Muslims attacked and aggressed, after the war they are required to compensate for the damage they inflicted on the peaceful community. Various derivatives of this word are used in the Quran frequently, and they are translated as compensation for a particular deed.

    Unfortunately, the distortion in the meaning of the verse above and the practice of collecting a special tax from Christians and Jews, contradict the basic principle of the Quran that there should not be compulsion in religion and there should be freedom of belief and expression (2:256; 4:90; 10:99; 18:29; 88:21,22). Since taxation based on religion creates financial duress on people to convert to the privileged religion, it violates this important Quranic principle. Dividing a population that united under a social contract (constitution) into privileged groups based on their religion contradicts many principles of the Quran, including justice, peace, and brotherhood/sisterhood of all humanity.

    Some uninformed critics or bigoted enemies of the Quran list verses of the Quran dealing with wars and declare islam to be a religion of violence. Their favorite verses are: 2:191; 3:28; 3:85; 5:10,34; 9:5; 9:28-29; 9:123; 14:17; 22:9; 25: 52; 47:4 and 66:9.

    As to allowing the things which God has forbidden here is a little list:

    That you set-up partners with Him,
    that you are unkind to your parents,
    that you kill your children for fear of starvation; We will provide for you and them.
    Do not come near evil deeds (Fahsha’a) what is apparent and what is hidden;
    do not kill the soul that God has made except by that which is just. That is what God prescribes for you may you understand.
    And do not take the funds of the orphans until they reach maturity, except for what is good for them.
    And be just when weighing the scales or giving portions (in trade). We do not burden a soul except with what it can handle.
    And if you speak, be just, even if it is with relatives.
    And fulfill any oaths you have made in God’s name.
    This is what God prescribes for you, may you remember.” 6/151-152

    Also:

    “Say ‘my Lord forbids (Haram)

    evil deeds which are apparent and hidden;
    and aggression without justification;
    and that you establish partners to God;
    and that you say about God what you do not know” 7/33

    As for the Food that is Unlawful:

    “Say ‘I find no food forbidden (Muharam) in what is revealed to me except that it be:

    Animals that die of themselves;
    Running blood;
    The meat of pigs, for it is contaminated;
    That which has been sacrificed for other than God.
    He who must eat these for dire need has no sin, your Lord is forgiving and merciful” 6/145

    And for what is Unlawful in Marriage:

    “Unlawful for you (in marriage) are:

    your mothers,
    your daughters,
    your sisters,
    the sisters of your fathers,
    the sisters of your mothers,
    the daughters of your brother,
    the daughters of your sister,
    your nursing mothers,
    the girls who nursed from the same woman as you,
    the mothers of your wives,
    the daughters of your wives with whom you have consummated the marriage–if the marriage has not been consummated, you may marry the daughter.
    Also prohibited for you are the women who were married to your genetic sons.
    Also, you shall not be married to two sisters at the same time–except if this is already the case. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.”
    Also Unlawful are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you.
    These are GOD’s commandments to you…” 4/23-24

    Also…

    “Do not marry the women who set-up partners with God until they believe…” 2/221

    What is Unlawful in Trade:

    “…God has made trade Lawful and forbidden usury…” 2/275

    I don’t really think that you can find much there that is not already in the Old Testament can you? Oh Sorry I was forgetting that despite Mathew 5:17 which states Jesus as Saying “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill” your belief allows you to reject the Old Testament doesn’t it? Which nicely leads us on to the next verse.

    And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them.[] So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allâh’s Book, disobeyed Allâh’s Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allâh’s disobedience), and Allâh will inform them of what they used to do. 5:14

    This could have been sent especially for you Ismail, as you have abandoned the Old Testament, have you not? You also seem to be filled with hatred as well, that is not just my opinion is it?

    Luckily you are not a common example of Christian Faith, I have many friends who are Christian but they would absolutely abhore the way you deal with Islam, as do many on this forum. They have learnt the lessons from Jesus, which you obviously have not. You are very fond of saying that Muslims who exhibit good traits are obviously not True Muslim, I ask you to look at your self in a moment of quite reflection, and ask yourself: “Am I a True Christian? Does my hatred reflect the teachings of Jesus, or have I been so tainted by my past history that I could never ever hope to aspire to the goodness that Jesus lived and preached?”

    Peace

  17. avatar Hassan says:

    Andrew: You said,

    “Does that mean Saudi Arabia’s law is 13x more effective than Malaysia’s? I don’t think so, because it’s like comparing apples to oranges.”

    That’s why I compared the US (89,110) with UK (8,593), France (8,458), Germany (7,499), Japan (2,260) and Australia (15,630) to make an almost apple to apple comparison. Even after I compared the US with those countries which had excellent human rights track records and good law enforcement systems, the US still ranked the highest in rapes per-capita. So Andrew, what can we conclude from that?

    “the (low) rate of rape doesn’t necessarily give us a conclusive evidence that support the claim that people are morally good there – as implied by Hassan.”

    No, Andrew. I’m implying that the achievements that the US have had in the fields of technology, science, human rights, economy, etc doesn’t seem to go hand in hand with their level of morality (as shown by the rape numbers). And on that matter, they should blame themselves and try to improve on that rather than giving a false smokescreen in the form of the argument about the transparency of their legal system.

  18. avatar 1ndra says:

    Not just rape number but pornographic globalization. 🙂

  19. avatar Andrew says:

    Hassan,

    Just don’t forget that the definition of rape differs even among western countries.

    I do agree with you on the second point that their achievements don’t go hand in hand with improved morality, however, I don’t see how morality is supposed to be impacted by those achievement in the first place. Also, the definition of morality isn’t always static – what is common in Indonesia now was considered morally wrong in the US in the 50s.

  20. avatar Ismail says:

    Khafti, you are indeed incredible, I am rather a simple minded and I do not believe that any language is sacred, all is a gift from the the Lord. So I will work with authentic translations not some madeup attempt at modernising the text.

    I see you have suddenly become used associating the word hate, I thought you used to be able to distinguish between the hatred of an ideaology and a human being, I guess I will continue to assert my position. I used to think you didn’t like such short cuts, I mean calling me things I am not as a way filling that you are all that. But its ok.

    Anyway back to your drive to re-edit the Quran in your mind-likeness, unfortunately you are desperately wrong, but I commend your attempt but when you are through with this process, you should simply rename the Quran something else altogether. I dare say what you practice is not islam anymore!

    Please what authorised translation did you use, because you have complete change the text to make your position safe. Sir please I will not follow your style because it’s misleading and you find it difficult to confront the truth of the Quranic text, in spite of the twist, the meaning is still rather heavy. You had to appeal to context and histroy again. Wow islam rather heavy, everytime you read the “holy Quran” even thought it claim to easy, you still to go arround looking for context and histroy.

    Your comment on sura 5:14 is a sad attempt, what was in facts rejected by Christians and Jews was the so called mohammed’s prophetic massage, his message of death, in turn he wasn’t going to waste his time interceding, he simply said “So We (Muhammed and Allah) planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection” .

    We have never rejected the old testament, but in Jesus, we have a new testamant or convenant, Jesus did not just wipe out the old, he simply fulfiled it, and sir that is the GOSPEL. The law is not for the righteous but for the sinners, Christ through his fulfilling the law and paying for our sins simply made us righteous, that is why any sinner can be forgiven and forgotten, again that is the GOSPEL. The one Muhammed spent his life twisting. Grace sir! not works.

    Jesus hated what the pharisees and the saducess were doing and he told it to there faces and they wanted to kill him for it. I guess that is what you call hate, mohammed in fact did exactly what Jesus condemed and more! If they were contemporaries Jesus would told him so.

    Side talk.
    I am not claiming perfection but I strive for it, I won’t say I have attained yet but its in sight. Forgivness isn’t random, it’s giving to people who first desire it and then recieve it from the the one (Jesus) who by reason of his love paid the price tag. Death. But he lives!

  21. avatar Peter says:

    Although I do not agree with Ismail, I would still contend that many verses – including 9:29 (about fighting back) – are questionable (in the way they are presented).

    M Khafi, as you pointed out, this verse has a specific context (like countless others). It was a decree to Muhammad and his followers that was addressing a specific event with a specific time and place. Why should this decree be included in the Quran – a book which is taken to be a timeless and universal source of guidance? Why should we be reading historical quotes as if they are directed at us? This is what causes so much confusion and leaves so much room for foolish interpretations of the Quran.

    In my opinion, much of the Quran – which is composed of Allah’s specific commands to a certain group of Muslims in a certain place and time – should be removed, and placed together in a different book about Islamic historical revelations. This book could fully explain the contexts in which each decree was given, so that Muslims would not foolishly think that Allah is giving them 1000+ year old commands.

    Some verses in the Quran also have the nasty tendency to brag about how the early people of the Book abandoned their true religion, and how Muslims are followers of the (only) “true religion”. This is an ugly habit and I see no good coming out of such verses, and no legitimate way to defend them.

    This being said, the basic tenets of Islam are great, and we would all do well to follow them (no matter which name we call God by). But, as the saying goes: “The devil is in the details.”

    I believe it is more important to follow the spirit of Islam than the letter. And if the letter contradicts the spirit, the letter must go.

  22. avatar Ihaknt says:

    […deleted….]

    Ihaknt, please re-read the comments policy.

    Patung.

  23. avatar Mohammed Khafi says:

    Peter,

    You said:

    This being said, the basic tenets of Islam are great, and we would all do well to follow them (no matter which name we call God by). But, as the saying goes: “The devil is in the details.”

    I have found that most of the problems are due to interpretation and translation, both of which are coloured by the beliefs of the individuals doing the work, as I have pointed out to Ismail and others in previous comments, if Al Quran is approached with good intentions, you will find the goodness in it, if approached with bad intentions the opposite is true.

    as you pointed out, this verse has a specific context (like countless others). It was a decree to Muhammad and his followers that was addressing a specific event with a specific time and place. Why should this decree be included in the Quran – a book which is taken to be a timeless and universal source of guidance? Why should we be reading historical quotes as if they are directed at us? This is what causes so much confusion and leaves so much room for foolish interpretations of the Quran.

    I believe that these verses are for us to learn from the mistakes of the past, they give context and are a reminder of how things were.

    In my opinion, much of the Quran – which is composed of Allah’s specific commands to a certain group of Muslims in a certain place and time – should be removed, and placed together in a different book about Islamic historical revelations. This book could fully explain the contexts in which each decree was given, so that Muslims would not foolishly think that Allah is giving them 1000+ year old commands.

    This is a good idea, but I doubt that the mainstream Muslims are ready for such an occurence, the sequence of the verses is of itself not divinely inspired and this would certainly clear a lot of misunderstanding, but the fact is that we have to work with what we have! Many people are working in the background with Al Quran, to clarify the meaning and place the verses in their correct context based on the true spirit embodied in The Book, let us hope that their work continues and becomes more widely accepted.

    Some verses in the Quran also have the nasty tendency to brag about how the early people of the Book abandoned their true religion, and how Muslims are followers of the (only) “true religion”. This is an ugly habit and I see no good coming out of such verses, and no legitimate way to defend them.

    I defend these verse because I think that they are true. Don’t forget that these verses do not apply only to the Jews and Christians they also apply to the Muslims as well! Muhammed in Al Quran is quoted as saying on The Day of Judgement “And the messenger saith: O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur’an of no account.” 25:30
    The True Religion is the Religion of God, not just Muslim Islam. Islam in Al Quran means submission to God, and applies to all believers, Jew, Christian, Muslim or otherwise. Please do not make the same mistake that mainstrean Muslims make and think that Kafir means a non Muslim, it doesn’t:

    Kafir (Arabic: كافر kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār) is an Arabic word meaning an unbeliever, a person who hides, denies, or covers the truth.

    There are verses in Al Quran that shows that God, is worshipped in Temples and Churches, so it cannot mean what it is commonly held to mean.

    The simple facts are that the Jewish people were given Torah but follow Talmud, the Christians were given Injeel but follow the Gospels and the Muslims were given Al Quran but follow Sunnah and Hadith. All through the History of Mankind we have rejected the divinely inspired and replaced it with our own manmade teachings which have deviated from the divine inspiration. The Jews say that only Jews will go to heaven, the Christians say that only Christians will go to heaven, Muslims say that only Muslims will go to heaven, but Al Quran says that ” Any who believe in God, believe in the Day of Judgement , and do good deeds, have nothing to fear from God”

    I believe it is more important to follow the spirit of Islam than the letter. And if the letter contradicts the spirit, the letter must go.

    I don’t think there is anything wrong with the letter, however I reject the false manmade teachings which have been used for interpretation and translation. I hope that I am a modern man, I believe in science and technology, I accept others differences, I hope I am caring and kind and willing to help those less fortunate than myself, I love music and the arts, but I am still a Muslim.

    Peace

  24. avatar Peter says:

    M Khafi,

    I understand that there are many things in the Quran that are misinterpreted. My argument is that those things are so often misinterpreted because they are too vague and confusing (for example, Muslims will defend verses that warn the Ummah not to befriend the Jews by saying that those verses are taken out of context and that they only apply to that time & place; but Muslims will take another decree that tells them to respect the “People of the Book”, and they will argue that this decree is universal, and overrides the previous decree [only because it looks better]).

    The teachings of Islam are pretty simple. There is no good reason that the Quran should be so easily misinterpreted and misrepresented. This is due to weaknesses in the Quran’s presentation, lack of context for many decrees, and often things that, at face value, contradict or undermine themselves. The Quran claims to be divine in itself, and therefore its decrees will be taken at face value by many – whether or not they are understood correctly. Allah surely should know that his bumbling servants will be prone to misinterpreting the Quran, and therefore the Quran should be clear and self sufficient. There should be no need for historical commentary to clarify the intentions of certain verses.

    M Khafi, you and I may have what we consider to be a deeper understanding of the Quran, but it is unrealistic to expect most people (and people, on average, tend to be rather foolish) to think for themselves and question the deeper implications of a decree which they consider to be divine.

    Personally I believe that, if the Quran (as given to Muhammad) was “perfect” or “divine”, then somewhere along the line a few errors were made. Muhammad was after all illiterate, so in the transcription process some things must have gotten mixed up. Maybe he just remembered some things wrong. He is human, after all. I don’t know, but this last part is simply my speculation.

    And this is not to say that the same inconsistencies are not present in other books such as the Bible.

    Distinguishing historical strategic commands from universal, timeless wisdom is no easy task.

    What ever happened to the tradition of Ijtihad?

    Ahhh…this brings up another challenge to reforming Islam – the fact that Islam has no ultimate authority.

    I’m not sure if the wisest person on Earth could solve this riddle. I think people like you and I are destined to be the minority, M Khafi. As for the rest, they will swallow whatever words they are given without digesting them, and burp up ignorance.

    Salaam

  25. avatar Ihaknt says:

    Hi Cuk,

    I do care immensely for the welfare of women around the world, not only in Indonesia. I also do care for welfare of any human and living beings. And for dismissing how these women feel just by some statistic and your own judgment does hit a raw nerve, they are human and should be treated like one, not just an object.

    Rape or other crimes is function of crime triangle. Crime or rape will not be occurred if crime triangle doesn’t exist. In TKW rape case, I think every one know that most Arabic Man has strong sexuality and our foolish to supply them with a sexuality target so when tkw was not there the crime triangle doesn’t exist but we make it the triangle exist by providing them the target crime.

    This is the exact kind of mentality and attitude that they (obviously you do too)have – so it’s their fault they get rape…the perpetrator are human too, then where is their self-restrain and control, in the end that’s what sets us above animals. These are also the people who claim they live their lives for religion. Would you say the same if it was your mother, daughter or sister who was raped, that it was their fault?

    But friend of mine one day was on board with some TKW returned from Arabic Country and he heared exciting conversation amongs them how they were so enjoyed being sexualy abused by their handsome master.

    As disgusting as it sounds, she was one of the few lucky ones, more are tortured and ordered to keep silent. If she did enjoy it, she would’nt have referred the experience as ‘abuse’.

    I won’t wish rape to happen even on my worst enemy.

  26. avatar sgn says:

    IHnAKnT says:I wont wish rape to happen even on my worst enemy.

    So far I don’t have any enemy, but I totally agree with you.
    I don’t like to see a rape activity even though it is only on a movie or a novel.

    /sgn

  27. avatar Grace and Mercy says:

    MK

    the Christians were given Injeel but follow the Gospels

    Injeel and the Gospel is the same thing. The word Injeel in Greek is the word evangel which is translated to English (Old English I should say) God-spell which in a modern English is the Gospel.

    They all mean “good news” The good news of Jesus Christ which is in its essence:

    God is holy
    Human sin

    God who is holy cannot accept a sinful men/women, no matter how good they try to live while they were on the earth.

    But God loves human.

    So God provided a way for a sinful human to be right with a holy God.

    He sent Jesus who lived a sinless live while He was on earth, to die on the cross, for the atonement of all sin of humanity.

    For those who accepted his atonement, is at peace with God.

    Therefore God has given a way for humans to reach God, not by good works or deeds, but by receiving the grace He gave to his beloved creation.

    Injeel, Evangel, Gospel or the Good News is a love story of a loving God, who reached out to His creation to provide a way for them.

    It was never about religion, human good deeds or work or anything else. It;s always about a loving God.

    That’s the good news, and that is a VERY GOOD NEWS, don’t you think?

    __________________

    Hi Peter,

    And this is not to say that the same inconsistencies are not present in other books such as the Bible.

    Tell me what inconsistencies are they? The whole bible is summed up in what I just say in my last post, about a redemptive work of God from the beginning of creation, epitomize by Jesus Christ. All the prophecies of the Old Testament point to Jesus. All the Gospels confirm the prophecies about Jesus. All the doctrine of the New Testament found in the epistles explain about Jesus.

    Even when God said to the serpent in Genesis 3:15 “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offsprings and hers; He will crush your head and you will strike his heel” is a prophetic word saying that Jesus will defeat the devil (crush your head).

    In all the oldest sources which even includes the Samaritan Pentateuch, the inconsistencies are only found in, as they would say “dots in the i’s cross in the t’s”.

    I do admit the inconsistencies in reading the Word of the living God sometimes are done by Christians who are based on denominational biases.

  28. avatar Cukurungan says:

    SGN, Ismail and Magy,

    Would you please explain to me what is a wrong parts in article below:
    The Shocking Truth
    By: Khadija Watson
    Former Mary Sue Malvar

    Professor, Theologian, Missionary, Pastor, Church Planter, Licensed Ordained Minister, fundamentalist Christian, not a likely candidate for Islam. Yet, 6 years ago, after being raised in the Christian church all my life, (first as a Roman Catholic and then as a Born-Again, Spirit-Filled Christian) and having completed a Standard Ministerial Diploma, Bachelor of Theology and a Master of Divinity, I embraced Islam! What was it that brought about such a radical change?

    I started to question Christian beliefs while I was studying for my Master’s degree. As was my habit, I read through the Bible once every year for 12 years. I had done this along with multiple readings in connection with my preaching, teaching and studies. It was during these readings that I started to notice certain contradictions.

    For instance, we teach the doctrine of Original Sin from Genesis 3 but it is contradicted in Ezekiel 18:1-22. If this basic doctrine is not true, the whole foundation of all Christianity falls. I saw these things as I read, and always stopped to ponder them, but never had time to research them because of my studies, etc. Yes, during my 8 years of study, we read through the Bible book-by-book, chapter-by-chapter and verse-by-verse; however, we never did a cross study, so any contradictions that are apparent were never addressed. Also, this was the first time we studied Church History by actual history and not from the Bible.

    It was at this point that I began to question Christian Doctrines that were not in existence during the time of Jesus; rather, they began 325 years later starting with the Doctrine of the Trinity. The word “trinity” is not found in any Bible in the world, neither is it in the original Greek and Hebrew languages [these were the original languages that the Bible was written in]. This Doctrine [of Trinity] was introduced at the first of 4 councils that determine Christianity today, but because the Catholics at that time would not accept it-it had to be reintroduced 68 years later, at the 2nd council of Nicaea. Through the Doctrine of Incarnation, which makes Jesus both God and man, to the Doctrine of Propitiation, or perfect sacrifice, the formulation of all of these doctrines took more than 100 years.

    I always had a hunger in my heart to know more of God. One day, I went to my professor and stated, “There has to be more to Christianity than what we teach. We tell the people they must be “Born Again” (meaning you have made a personal statement and commitment to asking Jesus Christ to come into your heart and forgive your sins and make you a new person), or you must be “Filled with the Holy Spirit”-in addition to being “Born Again” (in which the person will have an in-filling of the Holy Spirit, experienced by glossolalia or speaking in tongues). I had both of these experiences, although they are not recognized as necessary by all Christian churches or denominations. There is a lot of in-fighting and theological differences between denominations. Protestants do not recognize Catholics as even being Christian because they worship Mary, the mother of Jesus [peace be upon him] along with various saints. Baptists do not have “fellowship” with non-Baptists. In addition, there are Methodist, Wesleyan, Presbyterian, Congregational, Pentecostal churches and a thousand independent churches that do not belong to any denomination. They all differ on points of doctrine or interpretation of the Bible. I felt that if what we were teaching were genuine, there would be no need for denominations.

    There should be an apparent change in society around us. Instead, society is in a decline and in worse condition than it was even 50 years ago!

  29. avatar sgn says:

    Dear Cukurungan,

    Thank for asking me. May I not look for the mistake on the article your mentioned?

    When someone came to me and told me that he/she is now believe in Jesus, my first reaction is of course “Thank God”, and next I will ask him/her what you will do after you believe in Jesus. Will you love your neighbours more than before? Will you obey and respect your parents more than before? Will you reconsiliate with your “enemies”? Will you will help the needy? Will you let Jesus to guide your life?

    Honestly, I am more interested to see what actions she has done or will do after the changes. I could not see her directly, I only can read her opinion from the internet. Here what I found:

    ———————————————————————————
    http://www.indymedia.org/de/2004/12/865445.shtml

    DEATH OF A NATION
    Khadija Watson 06 Dec 2004 17:56 GMT

    The American nation has failed, it is falling – it is already dead.

    Today America is the most hated country in the world out side of Israel. Why ? Because these values once so important, once instilled in every school child are no longer there. Instead we see the ugliest, unscrupulous, corrupt, unjust nation in the world. And like other nations and civilizations that have fallen before it we too will see the United States fall. Form outside powers and nations? Most likely no, the United States will fail and fall form within, because it has failed itself.

    And we are the witness to the Death of a nation.
    ——————————————————————————–

    My question: Is she really American citizen? If yes, why she said like that. I could not imagine if one of us in this forum say “Indonesia is already dead”.

    What do you think?

    God bless you!!!

    sgn

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