Poligami Award
December 17th, 2006, in News, by PatungAn Islamic court in West Sumatra puts on trial Aa Gym and Yahya Zaini.
The Majelis Tinggi Kerapatan Adat Alam Minangkabau, or the Minangkabau Traditional Culture High Council, in cooperation with the Komite Penegak Syariat Islam Sumatra Barat, the West Sumatra Committee for the Application of Islamic Sharia Law, held a mock trial of polygamist Abdullah Gymnastiar and adulterer Yahya Zaini on the 14th of December, with the title Indahnya Poligami dan Bejatnya Berselingkuh, the Beauty of Polygamy and the Depravity of Adultery, at the Al-Wustha mosque in Padang. It seems, from the title, that the judgement of the court was a foregone conclusion.
The lucky winner.
Both the two men were portrayed by impromptu actors, as were other well-known figures, including womens’ activist Siti Masidah, Minister of Religion Maftuh Basyuni, and Minister for Womens’ Empowerment Meutia Hatta.
The actor portraying Aa Gym explained that he had decided to take a second wife as a way of avoiding adultery, which is forbidden by religion. “Yahya Zaini” too admitted that he wanted to practise polygamy but his career as a politician made this a difficult choice.
Glum faced Yahya.
Finally, after hearing all the witness testimony and after some serious deliberation, Aa Gym was not only acquitted, assuming any charges were actually laid against him, but he was awarded a prize, the Poligami Award, while naughty politician and unwilling porn film star Yahya Zaini was sentenced to death by stoning, in absentia. [1]
57 Comments on “Poligami Award”
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1ndra Says:
December 17th, 2006 at 10:38 pmWell that was a good ‘trial’, lol
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Ihaknt Says:
December 18th, 2006 at 5:20 amhehehe :), another dagelan to keep people entertained.
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Bradlymail Says:
December 18th, 2006 at 8:31 amBoth deserve those awards. Congratulation both you!
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Grace and Mercy Says:
December 18th, 2006 at 11:47 amIt shows that we as a nation is completely depressed that we constantly need to humorize ourselves with this tired old issue…
Can we tackle issues such as poverty, human rights abuses, rice and kerosene shortages please????
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December 18th, 2006 at 5:36 pmGrace and Mercy: Yes, we badly needed it. Something sharp, clear point and sure entertaining
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cris Says:
December 18th, 2006 at 6:45 pmHmmm…
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Mohammed Khafi Says:
December 18th, 2006 at 8:31 pmIhaknt said:
another dagelan to keep people entertained
It is not just entertainment, but when it is carried out by Majelis Tinggi Kerapatan Adat Alam Minangkabau, with the Komite Penegak Syariat Islam Sumatra Barat it is a form of brainwashing or conditioning for the unthinking masses.
Grace and Mercy said:
Can we tackle issues such as poverty, human rights abuses, rice and kerosene shortages please????
Please don’t be blinded to the facts, if Islamisation of Indonesia is allowed to continue at it’s present pace those issues wil multiply many times over, this conditioning is part of the process.
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December 19th, 2006 at 5:14 amMK, you make me really sad! :(, It saddens me to think that these people ARE being brainwashed. What a waste huh? Why cant they think for themselves? Do you think they are just to lazy to think?
MK and all the people above who seem to use their brains, what can we do about this so called Islamisation? -
Dimp Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 9:44 amHi Ihaknt,
Islamisation is not all bad, if they are actually making people better, but at the moment it seems through the actions of the so called “Islam defenders” they are actually making a mockery out of Islam.
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Fanglong Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 4:09 pmI don’t like, and I disapprove this one : “naughty politician and unwilling porn film star Yahya Zaini was sentenced to death by stoning, in absentia”.
Very bad habit of playing with people’s life. All these stonings, amputations, etc. are mere barbaric practices, or ideas. There are so many urgent issues —
I don’t like stories where death (killing) etc. is considered as a sane solution.Could Tomaculum — and others — tell more on kejawen ?
Salam !
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Longlifelearning Says:
December 19th, 2006 at 9:26 pmMohammed Khafi Said
Can we tackle issues such as poverty, human rights abuses, rice and kerosene shortages please????
Please don’t be blinded to the facts, if Islamisation of Indonesia is allowed to continue at it’s present pace those issues wil multiply many times over, this conditioning is part of the process.
Your opinion is foundless and out of context, especially in poverty issue. The main cause of poverty in Indonesia is corruption, and it’s against Islam and all other religions teaching.
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December 19th, 2006 at 10:14 pmlonglifelearning said:
Your opinion is foundless and out of context, especially in poverty issue. The main cause of poverty in Indonesia is corruption, and it’s against Islam and all other religions teaching.
I think it is well founded and very in context, there have been many examples of people who masquerade as religious leaders, or who portray themselves as pious religious people, even a minister of religious affairs, who have been found commiting corrupt practices, they have used religion to hide behind because their own supporters cannot see their faults. This will only get worse if Shariaisation is allowed to continue, because Sharia is used to control the people, to oppress them and make them live in constant fear.
The facts are quite clear, Islamic countries, where Sharia is practiced are some of the most corrupt in the world, they are also by and large the most poverty ridden apart from some minor exceptions. if you want the figures they are here ETHICS AND CORRUPTION IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES FACT VERSUS FICTION.
I agree with you totally that poverty in this country is mainly caused by corruption and all religious teachings are against corruption. However this doesn’t seem to have helped the countries on the lists on the above link, perhaps the corruption is not just about money perhaps it is the corruption of the religion, and the hearts and souls of those who hide their criminal practices behind it which is the real issue.
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December 20th, 2006 at 8:08 amMy opinion, if we practised ’sharia law’ is something like we governed by dictactor!
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December 20th, 2006 at 10:00 amI think the implementation of Islamic values in Muslim society will not “multiply many times” of poverty in Indonesia as stated before. It’s the other way around.
The people mentioned above were not implementing the values, we should not be stereotypical here.
For CPI data, the data was mislead, we should see complete list of CPI on TI website, there is no correlation between sharia-run country and their position on CPI nor the poverty level of them. (There were not ‘minor exception’ as stated, most of sharia-run country are rich, however, I must say again, there is no correlation between sharia-run country and their richness). Moreover from the UN’s list of 50 least developed contries, http://www.un.org/special-rep/ohrlls/ldc/list.htm, most of them in Africa, their people belong to many religions. So, to sum up, I don’t think there is strong correlation between Islam (or religion for general) practised by the people and corruption or poverty level. (The poverty are so multidimensional problem, I hope we can have other post to discuss about it)
I agree with the relation between corruption and poverty, but I just can’t accept the idea that practicing Islamic values can multiply poverty level in Indonesia. I’ve been trying to practise them as in sharia financial and banking system, zakat for development, political participation, and one of my objective is to give little for the poor, it just unfair to said that Islamisation worsened the poverty condition in Indonesia.
(I define Islamisation here as implementation of Islamic values among the Muslims)perhaps the corruption is not just about money perhaps it is the corruption of the religion, and the hearts and souls of those who hide their criminal practices behind it which is the real issue
You’re totally right MK, so it’s the person, not the religion.
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December 20th, 2006 at 10:49 amYes the person’s morality, religious or other high regarded title most time built only for excuse.
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December 20th, 2006 at 3:12 pmlonglifelearning,
You said:
I’ve been trying to practise them as in sharia financial and banking system, zakat for development, political participation, and one of my objective is to give little for the poor, it just unfair to said that Islamisation worsened the poverty condition in Indonesia.
I also try and live my life according to my understanding of the Laws of Allah, however in my case based on Al Quran, but this is our personal choice as it should be for all people.
But we have to realise that we live in a country which is overloaded with criminality and corruption and the impementaion of Sharia based law will only give the criminals and corruptors another barrier of protection because once Sharia is implemented people will be frightened to stand up for their rights. It is all too common a practice for the corruptors to use their twisted interpretation of law for their own benefit.
Sharia has been used since the end of the era of the Rightly Guided Caliphs to oppress the people, it does not uphold the common standards of democracy and human rights which we should expect in this day and age. If you wish to use Sharia as a basis for your lifestyle by all means do so out of your own freewill, but do not impose your will on others.
Allah sent all of his scriptures as a guidance and as a means of upholding the rights of the poor and oppressed and as a means of ensuring their social welfare, in my opinion Sharia has not done this and therefore it cannot be based on Allahs law.
You are quite correct when you state that practicing Islamic values should not worsen the poverty condition, but I do not consider Sharia to be truely Islamic as it is based predominantly on manmade Hadith and has too many contradictions to Allahs Law as given in Al Quran.
The implementation of Sharia is analagous with the Politicisation of Islam and should have no place in a pluralistic country such as ours. We were told for years by the government that the Achenese wanted Sharia Law (another example of religion being used for political power), but we have seen that since they were given a chance to vote they have rejected Islamic parties and chosen pluralistic leaders. Do you think that under full Sharia law that they would have even been given a chance to make that choice?
A section from the “No To Political Islam” site sums up my feeling completely on this matter:
But Political Islam is not the answer to either western arrogance or political corruption. It seeks to return Muslims to the dark ages, limiting educational opportunity, denying the right of women to participate fully as adults in the life of the community, denying equality to non-Muslims, and imposing its own brutal and outmoded interpretation of Sharia law on every aspect of public life.
Among the hungry and destitute, Political Islam gained support with the promise of salvation for the dispossessed. But while drawing its strength from those who would fight oppression, it seeks to enslave all Muslims. It opposes progressive movements for liberty, freedom, justice and equality, and is opposed to cultural and intellectual progress. Throughout history Muslim reformers have opened up new vistas of intellectual and cultural achievement, tolerance and diversity. Political Islam on the contrary, seeks a narrow, petty, joyless, intolerant and closed society. It rejects all modernity, science and technology - except the technology of death.
Political Islam is a reactionary movement that has no place in the modern world. Over the last two decades, millions have been, and continue to be, murdered - shot, decapitated, stoned to death, and publicly hanged - by Islamic regimes and movements in Iran, the Sudan, Afghanistan, Algeria, Egypt, Nigeria, and Central Asia, while millions more have been forced into exile. The Islamists equate even well-founded dissent with blasphemy. Thousands of Muslim opponents have been killed and millions silenced through fear. Our silence is taken as support for the Islamist agenda. But the vast majority of the world’s Muslims reject Political Islam. The time has come for our voices to be heard.
True Islamic values yes, Sharia no!
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Grace and Mercy Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 3:29 pmDear Mohammed Khafi,
I don’t think I’m blinded to the fact that this country is going down the drain and I feel really strongly that Sharia is not able to fix the problem. I do believe that our nation is bound by spiritual poverty and stupidity in all levels.
Only God, not Sharia, can help this country. The two are completely different from each other. That’s why i believe we should even be more fervent in praying for our nation. It is in such a depressing state!
I want to share a scripture from 2 Chronicles 7:14 in the old testament of my holy book (the Bible) that I believe is relevant to all of us:
if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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December 20th, 2006 at 4:08 pmWell, what we have here nowadays…democracy and right to porn, democracy and right to steal…
In my opinion, we need some hardened laws, dont you see so much innocent people left unprotected without good laws. They behave good and with their morality they couldnt do crime. BUT they are easy and soft crime targets. Because the bad people dont fear laws and love to bug innocent people. Bad people dont like to bug bad people, its just like they kill theirself. But with hardened laws, they will be ‘killed’ by it, because wherever they flee, the laws will get ‘em.
Good people shouldnt fear the hardened laws, because they didnt like to do crime and the hardened laws wont ‘kill’ them.We need hardened laws, sharia or not, no problem. And the carrier should behave like Judge Bao, uncorrupted court.
…and justice for all. -
December 20th, 2006 at 8:38 pmGrace and Mercy,
Not just your holy book, all true Muslims should know that all the Gods scriptures have relevance to us!
1ndra,
I agree with you completely that what we need is to protect the weak, the oppressed and those of good faith. But as long as there is corrupt law making, law enforcement and judicial systems it will do no good.
We already have criminal laws in this country but then we have so many examples of poor application which invariably benefits the rich and powerful and punishes the poor and the weak.
We need to all stand together and make our voices heard, that enough is enough, that we the people demand change, we have to let the government, judiciary and the police know how we feel!
Peace
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December 20th, 2006 at 11:03 pmSalam MK,
We were told for years by the government that the Achenese wanted Sharia Law (another example of religion being used for political power), but we have seen that since they were given a chance to vote they have rejected Islamic parties and chosen pluralistic leaders. Do you think that under full Sharia law that they would have even been given a chance to make that choice?
I agree MK, but that means also, if Acehnese want to apply Sharia law in the future, shouldn’t we have to respect them to? it’s democracy things, right?
I hope they will, so maybe we can learn something then
Thanks, I learn many things from this post.
Peace
OOT: Dec 22, Mother’s Day in Indonesia, well actually, everyday should be special day for her, but for some who have missed them, I think tomorrow will be a good time to give her a little gift. -
Hassan Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 11:16 pmAgain Muhammad khafi, i need to ask why are you so worried about the “Islamisation of Indonesia”, but not the westernization of Indonesia? Would you be happier if Indonesia suffered from a full fledged ongoing westernization of Indonesia (as it currently does) where anything western is idolized and practiced and our own cultures and philosophies being thrown down the drain, or Islamization in which Indonesian Muslims tried to return to the Quran (and hadith, although you will deeply object)??
I think a good Muslim will actually be happy if his religion is spreading it’s influence in the lives of Indonesians, but I don’t see you the same way. Would you prefer more if we think and act more like the unbelieving westerners?
Quran 2:120 “Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: “The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance.” Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.”
Bradlymail: How can both YZ and Aa Gym receive the award if YZ never practiced polygamy in the first place? What he did was adultery. There is a huge difference there, my friend.
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Mohammed Khafi: Btw, I also had problems with your believe (your personally done interpretation of the Quran) that:
- Muslims may drink alcohol if done proporsionately.
- Adultery is better than polygamy, now that’s outrageous. -
Tomaculum Says:
December 20th, 2006 at 11:47 pmLonglifelearning,
I would like to learn more, so my questions to your statement:
I agree MK, but that means also, if Acehnese want to apply Sharia law in the future, shouldn’t we have to respect them to? it’s democracy things, right?
Question 1: Has anyone or any official body ever checked/examined, if the sharia law is compatible with the governmental earthen law? What is to do, if some of the sharia laws are not comply to the gov. accordant parts of the gov. laws? Which one is valid?
Question 2: In an unclear case, which law would prevail: sharia law or governmental law?
Question 3: If the sharia law is only valid for Moslems, what about non Moslems, who do misdeeds, which are also forbidden in Islam? Example: Has the hand of a non-Moslem thief also to be amputated (in cases he/she can be rescued from the lynch justice of the mob).
Hassan,
the unbelieving westerners
They believe, Hassan, but most of the westerner believe in Christianity. It is presumptuous to name people with other faiths as unbeliever, isn’t it? I think that is the problem.
Quran 2:120
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: “The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance.” Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.
And the Moslems are satisfied to see the other don’t follow the Islam religion? It is very sad for me, that there still many educated and intelligent people hold, their believes/faiths are the best and the only truthful.
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December 21st, 2006 at 1:07 amMohammed Khafi: I would like to clarify that what I meant was that would you like it more if Muslims followed the Islamic way of live or the ways of the westerners and their pre conceptions and values?
And can you help me understand that if Islam is not the only truthful and best way of live then what does the verse suppose to mean if following Christianity and judaism is an allowed alternative? Why didn’t it say that following those other faiths is ok?
2:120 “Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: “The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance.” Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.”
I never said that only Muslims can enter paradise, it is Allah’s prerogative right to judge us. But as Muslims we should follow the way of live that Allah SWT had prescribed, the Islamic one. that’s why i asked the question of why are you so worried if Islamization is coming to Indonesia, but you don’t seem to mind about the ever advancing westernization here? Which one would you choose, khafi? A westernized Indonesia or Islamized one?
You can’t say Indonesia as it is because we all knew it’s fading. Where’s our old cultures and heritage? Fading away. Either swallowed by westernization or Islamization.
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Munafikbangetloepade Says:
December 21st, 2006 at 1:23 amHassan,
I hope you and people like you can go to heaven. Enjoy the heaven to the fullest.
I prefer to stay with mother earth, with my fellow human beings, no matter how imperfect it is.
And, as an Indonesian, I strongly reject Islamisation of Indonesia. I believe more and more people are doing that.
Why? Because I strongly think that Islam, the way it is now, will not help Indonesian people live a better life.
Examples: saudi Arabia, kuwait, etc. They maybe rich in oil and money. But I would hate living in that kind of society.
Now, let’s discuss what “better life” really is.
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December 21st, 2006 at 2:01 amOff course you would reject it, Munafikbangetloepade. I understand that non-Muslims will reject the idea. Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist and atheists will also reject the idea of a Christianized Indonesia, for example. But Muhammad Khafi is a Muslim, that is why i asked him the question, we’re discussing the probable future for Indonesian Muslims.
It’s been 61 years since our independence and Muslims had never been allowed to life their lives according to how their religion taught them, the true Islamic one. All this time Muslims had tolerated our non Muslim countrymen, at our expense of not living the Islamic way of live.
Yes, that had intrigued me for quite a while too, what is ‘the better life’ for us? Secularism had clearly failed us.
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December 21st, 2006 at 2:38 amHassan.
Allow me some questions:It’s been 61 years since our independence and Muslims had never been allowed to life their lives according to how their religion taught them, the true Islamic one.
How is the true Islamic life, Hassan? At the expense of not living of Kebudayaan Indonesia and transfering Kebudayaan Arab 1 to 1 to Indonesia?
As far as I know the Moslems in Indonesia lived and some still live Islamic life, with a touch of Kebudayaan Indonesia, yes, because they are Indonesian. What you see nowaday is not Islamisation, but Arabicization. Look around, what kind of clothes the Indonesian Moslems wear, their attitudes etc. Sometimes I ask myself, is that really Indonesia?
All this time Muslims had tolerated our non Muslim countrymen, at our expense of not living the Islamic way of live.
Tolerating others at the expense of not living the Islamic way of live? Back again to the question: what do you understand with true Islamic live? Even the Wali Sanga had token the original Indonesian cultures inti account during their proselytisation.
And can you help me understand that if Islam is not the only truthful and best way of live then what does the verse suppose to mean if following Christianity and judaism is an allowed alternative? Why didn’t it say that following those other faiths is ok?
2:120
“Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: “The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance.” Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.”
By reason of a verse you claim that Islam is the only and truthful and best way of live? For whom? And if the Jews or the Christians or the Hindus say, the way of live according to their religions is the only best way, so who is right?
Every religion is for me suspicious, which claim to present the only best and truthful way of live.
Yes, that had intrigued me for quite a while too, what is ‘the better life’ for us? Secularism had clearly failed us.
Really? Tell us some proofs to your statement, I am willing to learn.
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December 21st, 2006 at 4:24 amHassan, I am a Moslem and i reject the idea. Because it’s not going to advance the society. Back to jaman jahilliyah. As Tom said it’s Arabicisation. We are losing our true identity as Indonesians. Allah SWT gave us these beautiful varieties of different customs across the region why change them to something we are not? Isn’t that in a way then challenging Allah’s way that’s been given to us? To live our lives as Indonesians not as Arabs? How could you say that secularism had failed us? It probably failed you because you’re too picik to see the it as a way to learn from each other as the Qur’an also states.
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December 21st, 2006 at 5:20 amHey Hassan,
Do you mean that the true Islamic teaching does not warrant toleration to non-Moslem? And yet Islam is claimed to be a peaceful religion…..
You said secularism has failed you? Can you elaborate this, can you please explain how secularism has failed?
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Andrew Says:
December 21st, 2006 at 5:38 amHassan:
It’s been 61 years since our independence and Muslims had never been allowed to life their lives according to how their religion taught them, the true Islamic one. All this time Muslims had tolerated our non Muslim countrymen, at our expense of not living the Islamic way of live.
Shocking. Tell me how tolerating non Muslims has prevented you to live the “true Islamic way of life”. What is actually “living the Islamic way of live”? Why do you think you have more rights to live they way you want? what makes you think others (”non-Muslim countrymen”) can’t live their way of life?
“Everything western is bad, anything Arabic is good” seems to be your motto, and tolerance doesn’t seem to be in your vocabulary.
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December 21st, 2006 at 6:54 amHassan,
With regard to cultures, I value our varied Indonesian cultures as well as my Islamic identity, But my Islam comes from my heart it is not something that needs to be clothed in a particular style.
Arabisation as I see it, is a culture of compulsion and oppression, removing God given freedom of choice, Westernisation is a culture of freeom of choice there is no compulsion in it, we cannot compel people to have good hearts that can only come from freedom of choice, the freedom to make the right and wrong decisions oneself. I can wear a pair of jeans and a tee shirt and still be a good Muslim.
I would hate to see the day that my daughter could not get married wearing kebaya, and with her beautiful hair piled up on her head and decorated, radiant and beautiful as any Indonesian bride should be. Arabisation would not allow that to happen. Conformity to Arab cultural norms would be all that was allowed. I would dread also the day that our identity as Indonesian is finally stripped from us, this does not have to happen with Westernisation , there are many examples of Asian countries which have Westernised, but not lost their culture, Japan, Korea, India, Thailand are just some examples.
I cannot understand your idea that Muslims have never been allowed to live an Islamic way of life? Islam comes from the heart Hassan, in what way has your heart been prevented from obeying Allah’s laws? I think you are confusing Arab Culture with Islam.
You said:
if following Christianity and judaism is an allowed alternative? Why didn’t it say that following those other faiths is ok?
But it does Hassan:
“….. And had there not been Allah’s repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah’s name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty” 22:04
“Those who believe, and the Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabi’een, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.” 2:62
Hassan you have to learn more tolerance of other faiths:
“Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. ” 3:84
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Oigal Says:
December 21st, 2006 at 9:55 amHassan
You said:
All this time Muslims had tolerated our non Muslim countrymen, at our expense of not living the Islamic way of live.
How very generous of you…but who has tolerated who… Whilst the population of Indonesia may be majority Muslim, the Majority of the nations wealth comes from non Muslim areas and non-Muslims.
Seems to me that perhaps if this nation is to grow a bit more appreciation is required. Perhaps its time to look around and see who is tolerating who in the interests of nationhood.
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December 21st, 2006 at 11:18 amHi, Toma
Question 1: Has anyone or any official body ever checked/examined, if the sharia law is compatible with the governmental earthen law? What is to do, if some of the sharia laws are not comply to the gov. accordant parts of the gov. laws? Which one is valid?
Question 2: In an unclear case, which law would prevail: sharia law or governmental law?
Question 3: If the sharia law is only valid for Moslems, what about non Moslems, who do misdeeds, which are also forbidden in Islam? Example: Has the hand of a non-Moslem thief also to be amputated (in cases he/she can be rescued from the lynch justice of the mob).
Q1. No, as far as I know. But the law should be examined based on their compatibility with the values of the people where it’s applied, not with the other law.
Q2. Higher government law will prevail
Q3. In my opinion, they should be put in trial based on Indonesia law.
Still, we should respect Acehnese ‘if’ they want to use sharia law, or modified sharia law, or any law which in accordance of Indonesia law, shouldn’t we?
Then we can learn something there -
December 21st, 2006 at 12:48 pmLonglifelearning:
No, as far as I know. But the law should be examined based on their compatibility with the values of the people where it’s applied, not with the other law.
Not with the in whole Indonesia valid law? As long as Aceh or Padang or where alse is still a part of Republik Indonesia, they have to respect the generally valid law, that is democracy. Off course the sharia should also be examined based on its compatibility with the local values, but deciding is the general gov. law.
Maybe, after the compatibility to the earthen valid law has been proofed in-depth, neutrally and dilligent, and after the MPR/MA allows it.
Then we can learn something there.
Learning is always giving and receiving, isn’t? Look how is the fact.
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December 21st, 2006 at 2:25 pmThe problem faced by Muslims in south east asia, including Indonesia, they mixed Arab cultures with Islam. They thought Arab cultures are part of Islam and they ignore their own beautiful cultures. I agree with Mohammed Khafi’s statement.
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December 21st, 2006 at 2:28 pmTomaculum,
You raised the question:
Has anyone or any official body ever checked/examined, if the sharia law is compatible with the governmental earthen law? What is to do, if some of the sharia laws are not comply to the gov. accordant parts of the gov. laws? Which one is valid?
I think a more important question is, is Sharia Law justified by, and compatible with Allah’s teachings in Al Quran? I don’t mean that based on philosophical viewpoints of scholars from the middle ages, I mean based on a complete review of Al Quran from a modern, more enlightened perspective. Is there any justification for Sharia as it is interpreted now, in a modern pluralistic society, people are free to live their lives on their own interpretation of God’s Laws if they so wish, but should it be imposed on others?
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December 21st, 2006 at 3:09 pmToma,
Maybe, after the compatibility to the earthen valid law has been proofed in-depth, neutrally and dilligent, and after the MPR/MA allows it
Hehe.. I agree…
It’s just nice to have such an agreement, don’t you think Tom?ps. I hope the MPR/MA will allows it
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December 21st, 2006 at 9:25 pmGuys, when I said that secularism had clearly failed us, I meant that we should look around us, watch the buser sergap etc news, look at our society at large, how free sex had become a common thing, where busung lapar occurs everywhere, corruption ran rampant, scandals by our most honourable statesmen, look at how 10% of our people owns 90% of our national wealth.
Also look at where our nation stands in comparison to our neighbours, where are we in the corruption list? in the GNP/GDP and per capita income list? where are we in the human development index list? 61 years ago we were a third world country and now? still a third world country.
After 61 years of independence, if you call that ‘a success’ then i have nothing more to say to you.
Tomaculum: you said, “Sometimes I ask myself, is that really Indonesia?”
You know what Tomaculum, when i looked around these days, i rarely see what you saw, ladies in burqas and bearded men, but what i did see all the time were women in tanktops, couples hugging and kissing in public, men and women wearing tight and inviting outfit, teenagers happily performing free sex, and people preferring junk food rather than tahu tempe and home made cooking. Is that really Indonesia??
“And if the Jews or the Christians or the Hindus say, the way of live according to their religions is the only best way, so who is right?”
I was talking to Mohammed Khafi, a Muslim. As for non-Muslims i can say that there is no compulsion in religion, for you is your religion, for me is mine.
Ihaknt: you said, “back to jaman jahiliyah”.
tsk..tsk.. I don’t think Allah SWT had brought Islam and it’s law to bring us back to “jaman jahiliyah”. In jaman jahiliyah my friend, people do not practice Islamic law. Islamic law brought us away from jaman jahiliyah, not into it.
“picik”? Are you in a habit of calling your fellow Muslims who wanted to turn to Islamic law as “picik”? then please define “arrogant”.
andrew: who said than if we apply Islamic law, non-Muslims cannot live their way of lives? Indonesia is the only country in this world where the dominant people cannot live according to their religion’s way of life, but must conform to the way of life of the minorities instead.
Remember the Jakarta Charter? We must conform it to the minorities’ standards.
Oigal: you said, “the Majority of the nations wealth comes from non Muslim areas and non-Muslims.”
My point exactly. That’s not really fair isn’t it? And what system had allowed that to happen? Capitalism and it’s followers (secularism, etc). Are you going to call us lazy again?
Mohammed Khafi: then please enlighten me to the meaning of the verse 2:120 according to your extensive knowledge in ‘tafsir Al Quran’.
Lastly to all, if some Muslims like me wanted to apply the sharia that doesn’t mean we wanted to force it to you, but because we felt that it’s necessary and for the good of everyone in this country (specially us, i know). That’s not ‘forcing’, that’s democracy.
Indonesia have about 90% Muslim population, and if they wanted to apply sharia, then they will out-vote the 10%. We’re just trying to unite our votes and reach a consensus among us. I’m not forcing you to accept it either, I’m just saying that is what I wanted, nothing more and nothing less.
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December 21st, 2006 at 9:50 pmDear Hassan,
Guys, when I said that secularism had clearly failed us, I meant that we should look around us, watch the buser sergap etc news, look at our society at large, how free sex had become a common thing, where busung lapar occurs everywhere, corruption ran rampant, scandals by our most honourable statesmen, look at how 10% of our people owns 90% of our national wealth.
Also look at where our nation stands in comparison to our neighbours, where are we in the corruption list? in the GNP/GDP and per capita income list? where are we in the human development index list? 61 years ago we were a third world country and now? still a third world country.
And that’s all come from secularism? Yeah, you’re right. During the Taliban era in Afghanistan you wouldn’t find such things.
Surely you wouldn’t find Mc Donalds in Afghanistan at that time, but corruption?
After 61 years of independence, if you call that ‘a success’ then i have nothing more to say to you.
I can’t find any statement saying that call the current situation in Indonesia after 61 years independent as a success. I read the comments again and to my opinion we discuss about this:
It’s been 61 years since our independence and Muslims had never been allowed to life their lives according to how their religion taught them, the true Islamic one.
I was talking to Mohammed Khafi, a Muslim. As for non-Muslims i can say that there is no compulsion in religion, for you is your religion, for me is mine.
That is the point, Hassan. If everybody yells out, that their religion is the only truthful and best religion, can we reach a peacefull living together?
You know what Tomaculum, when i looked around these days, i rarely see what you saw, ladies in burqas and bearded men, but what i did see all the time were women in tanktops, couples hugging and kissing in public, men and women wearing tight and inviting outfit, teenagers happily performing free sex, and people preferring junk food rather than tahu tempe and home made cooking. Is that really Indonesia?
My answer is no. But the other part is also not Indonesia!
By the way.
-
December 21st, 2006 at 10:54 pmHassan kindly and graciously said:
Mohammed Khafi: then please enlighten me to the meaning of the verse 2:120 according to your extensive knowledge in ‘tafsir Al Quran’.
YUSUFALI: “Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: “The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance.” Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.”
PICKTHAL: “And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting guardian nor helper.”
SHAKIR: “And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah’s guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.” 2:120
If you study the preceeding verses you will see that this is an occasion where God is speaking directly to The Prophet.
God is telling The Prophet that He, the Prophet, would not be accepted by the Jews and the Christians because he does not practice according to their traditions.
The Prophet is then instructed to say that the guidance of God is the only guidance meaning the guidance received before, the Taurat and Injeel, and the guidance being received by The Prophet is all the same
The Prophet is then told that if he turned to the ways of the Jews or the Christians then he would lose Gods protection and help.
He has been chosen by Allah, to bring confirmation of the previous scriptures in the form of Al Quran and the protection and help were to assist him in this task.
This verse was instruction to The Prophet not to follow Jewish and Christian traditions and practices, because he was being given religious instruction in Arabic for the Arabs, because Allah knew that the Arabs would follow nothing else, and delivery of this message was Allah’s intended task for the Prophet.
The guidance of Allah/God is all of the Scriptures, Taurat, Injeel and Al Quran.
Allah repeats a number of time that it doesn’t matter if you are Jew, Christian or Sabian, Any who believe in God, believe in the Day of Judgment and does good deeds has nothing to fear.
Nowhere does it say that the Muslim way is the only truthful and best way of life!
Islam means Submission to God, acceptance of all his scriptures and teachings, be they given to Jews, Christians, Sabians, and probably hundreds of others. Allah says in Al Quran that he sent messengers to many different peoples, who are we to decide what are Allah’s teachings or not, as long as they promote tolerance, equality, the upholding of human and civil rights, and a loving and caring attitude.
Peace Brother Hassan
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December 22nd, 2006 at 1:30 amWhy do they — shariahist — think that Islam / syariah is a silver bullet / panacea ???
It is not.
I don’t believe that religions come directly / purely from “god”. … Any religion … There’s also human intervention along the way.
I don’t even believe that those so called prophets communicated directly with “god”. They may did, but in indirect way. Many call it “inspiration”.
I don’t have problem with that. But please just don’t insist on making people to believe that your teaching is the best / purest / holiest. It is not. Nothing is.
After all, we’re all human beings.
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December 22nd, 2006 at 6:21 amHi Munafikbangetloepade,
Your comment just make my day, I agree with you.
What is the use of religion if it only brings hatred amongst the people.
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December 22nd, 2006 at 8:54 amLastly to all, if some Muslims like me wanted to apply the sharia that doesn’t mean we wanted to force it to you, but because we felt that it’s necessary and for the good of everyone in this country (specially us, i know). That’s not ‘forcing’, that’s democracy.
Absolutely, and if those non Muslim provinces decide that they don’t want Sharia and opt out of your brave new world that’s democracy too right?
That’s not really fair isn’t it? And what system had allowed that to happen? Capitalism and it’s followers (secularism, etc). Are you going to call us lazy again?
Noone but you said lazy..
Fair has nothing to do with it, its an accident of geography that placed a significant proportion of the nations natural wealth in non-Muslim areas (unless you want to say God/Allah was not being fair which I doubt). It has nothing to do with Capitalism unless you are advocating the other big C. The point is you are saying Muslim’s “Tolerate” the other faiths and religions in Indonesia, yet they provide so much to the nation state and the nation as it is now could not exist without them.
Perhaps as an interesting personal experiment you could considered that they tolerate you! Doesn’t feel nice to be refered to as tolerated does it? Why does it have to be like this are not all Indonesians?
One last point, where is this mythical nation where Sharia Law has fixed all ills?
As Winston Churchill once said
It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
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December 22nd, 2006 at 9:04 amHassan, how could you say
women in tanktops, couples hugging and kissing in public, men and women wearing tight and inviting outfit, teenagers happily performing free sex, and people preferring junk food rather than tahu tempe and home made cooking. Is that really Indonesia??
Indonesia has many customs and cultures. Girls in Bali didnt even wear any tops. Even to this date some people in Irian are still naked. And what’s with bringin food into this subject? You’d be lying if you said you never had any fast food. I prefer Indonesian food anytime, but not because fast food comes from America - your much-hated enemy, but cos it’s simply bad for you. But we all know that Indo is not Saudi! Why dont you just move there?
“picik”? Are you in a habit of calling your fellow Muslims who wanted to turn to Islamic law as “picik”? then please define “arrogant”.
Yes i am in a habit of it but only to YOU. If that makes you tick then the answer is YES. My fellow mulims are the ones who are peaceful and open-minded, not a person like YOU. You are the definition of arrogant. YOU are the one who are intolerant, think so highly of yourself, self-righteous, even most times your comments sound like it’s about YOU, YOUR VIEW, that people must agree with YOU. And if they dont, they somehow become your enemy.
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December 22nd, 2006 at 9:09 amHi Ihaknt,
You may as well talking to a brick wall, unfortunately these fundamentalists don’t use their “brains” as intended. They tend to look everything in one point of view, they have lost their common sense and think everything and everyone is against them, they never think that it’s not the others that is against them, but it was themselves taking the opposite site of everything.
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sgn Says:
December 22nd, 2006 at 10:34 pmJunk food? Is McDonnald serving junk foods?
Well, I have been in Dubai 5x. Once I stayed in the Crown Hotel. It was Friday, so I didn’t go to office. It was also hot, so I just went to McDonnald nearby to have my lunch. If I were Mr. Hassan, I would be surprised. Most of the people were having meal in that McDonnald are Arab (men and women, with their complete assocerries, you know what I mean).sgn
——
Ladies in burqas?
Well, I also had a funny experience. When I boarded into the aeroplane, I did not see any girl or lady in burqa. But, when the aeroplane landed in Dubai Airport”¦ Wow quite a lot girls/ladies in burqa.
BTW, burqa is not mandatory in Dubai. Most of girls/ladies in burqa are local (Arab).
sgn
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JKS Says:
December 23rd, 2006 at 1:56 amI think polygamists and adulturers are products of failed religions teaching, mixed with low morale, and act of sex devils, not counting ‘demand and supply’ theory.
According to research and personal experience as a sinner, at least 75% men experience/ed more than 1 woman and 30% women doing so with more than 1 man, regardless their religions are, percentage explodes if includes gays and lesbians.
Most of us perceived sex is a ‘worldly’ heaven besides other after death Muslim heaven which reserve 12 virgins as bonus for jihadmen.
Therefore men’s dicks are always busy and never stop venturing new actions in search of ‘new heaven’, legally or illegally….sigh.
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December 23rd, 2006 at 7:09 amSGN,
Most of girls/ladies in burqa are local (Arab).
Most of girls/ladies in burqa are local (Arab).from the many books I’ve read about Mid-eastern women studies, Dubai is one of destinations wealthy Arab women like to go to taste a bit of freedom while still being familiar with the custom. Others were London and Egypt. It’s interesting. I would like to go to Dubai one day. did you stay at that hotel? I dont remember the name.
I suppose Mc’Donalds or not, if you’re hungry you just need to eat, no? -
December 31st, 2006 at 3:46 pmTomaculum: taliban is a poor example of sharia, and a good example of a failed state. Saudi Arabia is a good example of a political (if not hypocritic) implementation of sharia as a law, but not as a system. I meant that the Saudi royals adopted sharia only to please their citizen, but their behavior (the ruling monarchs’) is not Islamic in anyway.
You said, “If everybody yells out, that their religion is the only truthful and best religion, can we reach a peacefull living together?”
Off course we can, as long as the conviction that we have that our religion is the only truhtful and best way of life was turned into a strong drive to be a good follower and worshipper of God. We should never force our religion’s values onto other people following other faiths. I only encouraged Muslims to live according to Islamic law, i never forced any of them (Muslims), let alone force non-Muslims to adhere to Islamic law.
Sharia was never meant to be applied to non Muslims. Why did some of them always worried whenever Muslims encouraged their brethren to return to the laws of their religion, that part i never understood.
Btw, i can find mac donald’s in mecca and medina, if that’s what you’re trying to say, but then i realised you missed my point. “mc donald’s” is more of a symbol of a way of live, rather than just a fast food chain. A non-Indonesian way of live.
Munafikloebangetpade: if you read my post thoroughly you will find that i never force any non-Muslims here to believe that “Islam’s teaching is the best / purest / holiest”. I argued with Khafi, a Muslim, so there’s no reason for me to push those agendas you mentioned.
Muhammed Khafi: if Islam is not “the only truthful and best way of life” then why did you follow the way? Why did Allah SWT needed to establish yet another religion named Islam if the former ones (Christianity and judaism) are as good as this latest one?? Sorry people, strictly a religious discussion between two Muslims here.
Oigal: you said, “if those non Muslim provinces decide that they don’t want Sharia and opt out of your brave new world that’s democracy too right?”
You’re free to try. But since I’m not exactly a policy maker for the republic of Indonesia, so don’t bother talking to me about those agendas.
“One last point, where is this mythical nation where Sharia Law has fixed all ills?”
Answer: none. Well who knows maybe Indonesia’s Muslims can try to do just that. A pity that our non-Muslim countrymen always have this antipathy whenever their Muslim countrymen tried to return to the laws of their religion.
Ihaknt: actually, even in saudi, there are mc donald’ses and pizza huts, so that’s not really my point. Read my post for Tomaculum for further detail
“yes i am in a habit of it but only to YOU” Only to me? Why poor me? Hehe! Anyways, that doesn’t make me tick. Your words just seemed stereotypical to me, to call anyone who wanted sharia to be adopted in Indonesia as “picik”, and to call those who opposed it as “rasional”.
“You are the definition of arrogant” In what way that a strongly oppinionated person can be called ‘arrogant’? Does having a strong conviction in one’s believe is a crime of arrogance?
“YOU are the one who are intolerant”. Once again, please provide proof to your accusations. Proof that having definite oppinions about certain matters can be called “intolerant”.
“even most times your comments sound like it’s about YOU, YOUR VIEW” Hey, isn’t that what the term ‘commenting’ is all about? So that in the end of the day, we can share each others view, understand why people think the way they think. If everyone had the same oppinion, then that is called a choir, isn’t it?
“that people must agree with YOU. And if they dont, they somehow become your enemy.” I never forced anyone to agree with me, i did argue with some people here, but “arguing” is not the same as “forcing”. Please quote any of my sentences if you believed otherwise. And I don’t consider anyone with a different oppinion as “enemies”, i might not like their views, but not the persons themselves.
Dimp: not everyone who’s pro-sharia are fundamentalists, please refrain from gross generalizations. I don’t consider myself as a fundamentalist nor as someone with political ties to any hard line organizations.
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December 31st, 2006 at 6:12 pmHassan,
Welcome back my Brother, missed you for the last few days, been celebrating Christmas with your neighbours?
You said:
if Islam is not “the only truthful and best way of life” then why did you follow the way? Why did Allah SWT needed to establish yet another religion named Islam if the former ones (Christianity and judaism) are as good as this latest one?? Sorry people, strictly a religious discussion between two Muslims here.
If I am behind the wheel of a 2006 Mercedes, why should I bother getting out of it to sit in a 1960’s Mercedes, let alone a model from the 1940’s. All of them if we follow the original manufacturers service book and keep them well serviced and looked after, will take us to the end of our journey won’t they?
I just get worried when people start to repair the vehicles with cheap replacement parts that don’t meet the original manufacturers specification, that is when the problems start.Spares Specifications for Religious Vehicles as supplied by God:
Original specification, Torah. Cheap replacement part, Talmud.
Original specification, Injeel. Cheap replacement part, Gospels.
Original specification, Al Quran. Cheap replacement part, Sunnah and Hadith.Selamat Idul Adah, My Brother.
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December 31st, 2006 at 8:10 pmHassan,
I never heard or read about any statement excluding non-Moslems from the sharia law in Aceh or Padang. In Saudi Arabia I can understand that, because the valid law up there is the sharia law for the whole country. But Indonesia is a republik with its own earthen valid laws, for me it is queer if there are two laws parallely being practised.
So if a non-Muslim is catched by an adultery, which punishment will she/he get? And what about burglary? Are there any regularisation or arrangement we can find?
What could be the reason that sharia law is necessary parallel to the governmental law? Is there any scientifical analysis about these “need”?You didn’t yet answer my complain about your statement to secularism, Hassan. What about this?
Off course is the Taliban era an extrem example for the non-secularism/clericalism. But it is an example, isn’t it?
And what about Saudi Arabia, which you have also criticised?
What is the reason of their wealthiness?
To my opinion:
1. because they have had much oil resources.
2. It is a small land with few inhabitant.
3. everybody needs oil
You can’t compare with the situation in Indonesia.
Let’s see what will happen with their richness if the oil reserves are used.
Secularism or clericalism, they would have to look for other sources.You wrote about non-Indonesian way of life. What is the “Indonesian way of life? Not McDonalds, but corruption, intolerance, Arabicization, butchering of muttons to be sacrificed to God, denying our cultures? Or what did you mean?
“You said, “If everybody yells out, that their religion is the only truthful and best religion, can we reach a peacefull living together?”
Off course we can, as long as the conviction that we have that our religion is the only truhtful and best way of life was turned into a strong drive to be a good follower and worshipper of God. We should never force our religion’s values onto other people following other faiths. I only encouraged Muslims to live according to Islamic law, i never forced any of them (Muslims), let alone force non-Muslims to adhere to Islamic law. ”
I agree with you, that we should never force the values of our religions to the followers of other faiths. But, Hassan, look around. You force no one, but hear what the clerics announce! And I mean really hearing without filtrating the unpleasant parts.“Well who knows maybe Indonesia’s Muslims can try to do just that. A pity that our non-Muslim countrymen always have this antipathy whenever their Muslim countrymen tried to return to the laws of their religion.”
The antipathy and the mistrust are to find at both sides! -
January 1st, 2007 at 9:39 amHello ihaknt (Ihaknt)
… It’s interesting. I would like to go to Dubai one day. did you stay at that hotel? I dont remember the name.I suppose Mc’Donalds or not, if you’re hungry you just need to eat, no?
I was fortunate, yes I stayed there once. It’s an expensive hotel.
Crowne Plaza Hotel
SHEIKH ZAYED AL NAHYAN ROAD PO BOX 23215
DUBAI, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Note: The hotel also serves pork (I saw it during a breakfast).The McDonald is within 50 meters from the hotel. Here is the list of restaurants (and junkfoods) in Dubai: http://www.godubai.com/dining/restaurant.asp
sgn
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January 1st, 2007 at 10:22 am….
if Islam is not “the only truthful and best way of life” then why did you follow the way? Why did Allah SWT needed to establish yet another religion named Islam if the former ones (Christianity and judaism) are as good as this latest one??
….I am not referring to good or bad religions, and not saying an old religion is better than the new religion, or viceversa. I just tried to understand more about the word “religion”.
I found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
According to Wikipedia, the Bahá’à Faith is a religion founded by Bahá’u'lláh in 19th century Persia, and the Ayyavazhi is originated in South India in the mid 19th century.
In addition, I met people who said “soccer” is their religion.
sgn
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guebukanmonyet Says:
March 23rd, 2007 at 12:43 pmI am a Muslim and I am against both adultery and polygamy. I believe that Islam does not allow its people to be polygamists.
http://guebukanmonyet.wordpress.com/2007/02/13/9/ -
Idam H. Says:
November 5th, 2007 at 8:05 amExperiencing living in Indonesia for almost four decades, reading the story and the comments above, I can see that there are many faces of Islam.
When people talk about the true or real Islam, definitely they only say Islam based on their point of view. Then, other people say there could be many Moslems but there will be only one Islam. It is just another ridiculous statement and logically cannot be substantiated since there would be no way to know the one Islam.
To know something you need to define how do we know something. And the way we know something is also the way to ignore other ways of knowing that thing. If you want to find the true one of anything, you can only believe it. If you want to reason, then what you get would be a wide variety of interpretations.
Hassan
You said:
All this time Muslims had tolerated our non Muslim countrymen, at our expense of not living the Islamic way of live.
A better statement about this would be “All this time Muslims had tolerated our Muslim brothers and our non Muslim countrymen, at our expense of not living in our interpretation of Islamic way of live. ”
Moslems and non Moslems would definitely have different way of live so it is understandable. Furthermore, the expenses are incurred both ways, not only for Moslems but also for non-Moslems. On the other hand, I find that many of my university-graduated Muslim friends are quarreling among themselves about the Islamic way of life. Some start behaving as if they are the right one and others are not.
If these people are uneducated and poor (based on the cause mentioned by Tuan Indonesian American Muslim on our discussion in other story), I can understand that intolerant behaviour among themselves. But, for God’s sake, they are graduated from respected Universities and they have decent living. I reluctantly had to agree on the statement poor condition and low education could be a factor, but brain-washing is more as the determinating factor here.
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Janma Says:
November 5th, 2007 at 10:05 amHassan said;
All this time Muslims had tolerated our non Muslim countrymen, at our expense of not living the Islamic way of live.
so what are you suggesting Hassan? That muslims in Indonesia shouldn’t be tolerant?
Also, the whole ‘court case’ above concerning AAGym and YZ is bullshit, everyone knows that AAGym was having an extra marital affair for months before he married the girl! why is that not adultery? Munafik!
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~tanty~ Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 6:04 pmIslam is not a religion because religion is man made.
Islam is a way of life or ‘deen’MK, I sent you a private email few days ago. Would you please answer it?
Thank you. -
Riyoz Says:
March 14th, 2008 at 11:18 pm“everyone knows that AAGym was having an extra marital affair for months before he married the girl! why is that not adultery? Munafik!”
Everyone knows ? is that right ?….can you confirm that ?
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